Where would Ness and Lucas rank on Tier Lists if it wasn't for their infinites?

[Jew and Magoo]

We all know that there are a few characters that can completely **** Ness and Lucas due to their long animation getting out of a grab. But, if this was fixed, and they were no longer susceptible to infinites at all, where do you think they'd rank?

Based on move-set, alone, I think Ness, in particular, would have a really good shot at being right around Donkey Kong and Lucario.

 

[ShadowLink84]

They only get infinited by Marth and Charizard.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Yes by maybe two or three spots, it didn't go into account that much in the tier placing, regardless of the infinate ness already has a hard time against marth and he can beat charizard no problem even with the infinat. The only reason he would move would be bcuz more ppl might use him more and potentialy win a tournament with him.

 

[Vect0r]

Probably Low tier. But who cares about tiers anyway?

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

They only get infinited by Marth and Charizard.

Fox doesn't care whether it's an infinite or guaranteed Up Smash.
It's a free setup for almost every character.

Lol at Vect0r. Tires don exits much?

In the hands of a good player, I'd say high mid tier for both. Ness has some really bizarre ATs, and Lucas kills with almost every attack he has. Lucas just hits hard, but does it really fast and well, and Ness plays super intelligently and has to set up for getting into the air so he can destroy them with disjointed hitboxes. Both have PKT2 and PKT mindgames, and both have momentum-altering specials.

So again, high mid tier. Right now they're low only because noone uses them. They could still reach the high-mid if more people used the two, I think.

 

[pastaboy]

i "think" he would higher if his lightning didnt get disrupted by everything, *** on, fireballs cancel it out. bassically an easy gimp

 

[Yuna]

Marth doesn't infinite either. He chaingrabs.

 

[Uffe]

Right now they're low only because noone uses them. They could still reach the high-mid if more people used the two, I think.

People probably main Lucas more than they do Ness. Also I don't really care if they're low tier because it'll be funny when someone low tier defeats someone who is at god tier. But really all of this is just based on who is played more. Snake could be low tier and still defeat a major list of character just because he's pretty powerful. Anyway I don't think people give Ness or Lucas much credit because they're afraid that Marth or Charizard is going to **** them.

@ Pastaboy: A lot of attacks can be canceled. Ness or Lucas' PK Fire can cancel out Samus' fully charged Charge Shot. Also if your PK Thunder is getting canceled, you should try to do more with it. And I love how a lot of people think that because Ness or Lucas has to use their PKT2 to return that they're easy to gimp. I've probably killed my opponents more by returning with PKT2 than I have been gimped.

 

[VietGeek]

Marth doesn't infinite either. He chaingrabs.

Yes, except the Ness CG lasts significantly longer than the Lucas one.

On topic, I'd say mid-high tier as well. A lot of potential for the two, they just need more players to represent them. They don't fancy my playstyle unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member]

ness would be on the higher-middle tier side

0% dair kill
PKT2
PK fire combo
Jab lock

if you've ever fought a good ness you'll know what im talking about

 

[Steeler]

ness scares me more than lucas.

 

[Yuna]

0% dair kill

Yes, if the opponent has already lost his 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling (or is lone!Popo or Yoshi, I guess).

PKT2

You have to be idiot to constantly get hit by PKT2.

PK fire combo

Smash- and Tap-DI. It's not even hard.

Jab lock

So can, what, 12 others? It's highly situational.

if you've ever fought a good ness you'll know what im talking about

It would take a pretty crappy player to constantly die from Dair at 0%, get hit by PKT2, fail at Smash- and Tap-DI:ing out of PK Fire and/or get Jab Comboed.

They'd be Mid Mid at most. They'er still easy targets for a lot of characters since the grab release can many times lead to a smash.

 

[Mmac]

Yes, if the opponent has already lost his 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling (or is lone!Popo or Yoshi, I guess).

What the hell? Yoshi can Meteor Cancel, and make it back fine. I have no idea where you are getting this Yoshi's Recovery is beyond garbage crap.

Everything else I agree with though

 

[Airgemini]

I have no idea where you are getting this Yoshi's Recovery is beyond garbage crap.

I think he meant that if Yoshi lost his second jump that he's pretty much screwed.

 

[Mmac]

It might not be crap but it still sucks compared to some others.

I'm not saying it's super MetaKnight style awesome, but it's nowhere near as crap as he says it is.

 

[Airgemini]

I'm not saying it's super MetaKnight style awesome, but it's nowhere near as crap as he says it is.

Yeah I didnt mean to say that, I changed my post incase you didnt notice.

 

[Mmac]

I think he meant that if Yoshi lost his second jump that he's pretty much screwed.

Yeah, but he said that with everyone already...

Yes, if the opponent has already lost his 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling

But separated Yoshi, comparing him to a solo Ice Climber, basically saying that he's going to be screwed, no matter what. Which is completely not true

 

[Yuna]

But separated Yoshi, comparing him to a solo Ice Climber, basically saying that he's going to be screwed, no matter what. Which is completely not true

I'm sorry, this is what my post said:
Yes, if the opponent has already lost his 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling (or is lone!Popo or Yoshi, I guess).

Anything after "and" is to be taken in conjunction with anything before it. As in, you only die from Ness' Dair at 0% if you've already lost your 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling or are a Lone Ice Climber or Yoshi because even if you can Meteor Cancel as them, once your 2nd jump is gone, you're screwed if you get Meteor Smashed.

 

[chewyy]

Yeah, I agree with Yuna.
Removing the Infinite, wouldn't change much, because you would probably still be able to follow up a release grab with a smash, unless you are removing that too.

I'm not a ness/lucas main, but I mean do you really get release infinited that much? I mean I think if I was playing against one of the few characters that could infinite me, I would try not to get grabbed.

Just my thoughts, don't flame me m'kay?

 

[Mmac]

>_<. How the hell did I miss that "And", especially when you bold it in the first place, let alone examine that sentence for a good 15 minute on your second post until I finally noticed what that mean....

I hate English so much. Probably even sadder that English is probably not even your first language -_ -

Although I think Yoshi's DJ Armour can withstand a Dair at 0% anyways

Anyways, back to Lucas and Ness

 

[SOVAman]

I think he meant that if Yoshi lost his second jump that he's pretty much screwed.

Thats true if he gets spiked by any character (that has a spike)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox doesn't care whether it's an infinite or guaranteed Up Smash.
It's a free setup for almost every character.

not erally Fox is one of the few characters who gains a kill move off of it. You can also break away into the air.

 

[Tenki]

>_<. How the hell did I miss that "And", especially when you bold it in the first place, let alone examine that sentence for a good 15 minute on your second post until I finally noticed what that mean....

I hate English so much. Probably even sadder that English is probably not even your first language -_ -

Although I think Yoshi's DJ Armour can withstand a Dair at 0% anyways

Anyways, back to Lucas and Ness

 

[Yuna]

I hate English so much. Probably even sadder that English is probably not even your first language -_ -

It's my 3rd language.

Although I think Yoshi's DJ Armour can withstand a Dair at 0% anyways

It's kinda impossible if he's already lost his 2nd jump.

 

[MarKO X]

Ness and Lucus would go up without the infinites...

But Ness still wouldn't be the N64 Ness he needs to be and Lucas, while he is pretty good, still has "flaws" beyond that.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, if the opponent has already lost his 2nd jump and is incapable of Meteor Canceling (or is lone!Popo or Yoshi, I guess).

grab release > dair

if the dair connects you're dead on smashville, LC, and BF

You have to be idiot to constantly get hit by PKT2.

everybody says to go out and thunder steal ness, what they dont know is they'll get ***** by the PKT2. also if you play a good ness he'll throw in mindgames with the pk thunder juggle, you will get hit by this at least once every 3 matches

Smash- and Tap-DI. It's not even hard.

yea and once you get out of the first pk fire you get grabbed or hit with another pk fire

So can, what, 12 others? It's highly situational.

but still useful as hell

It would take a pretty crappy player to constantly die from Dair at 0%, get hit by PKT2, fail at Smash- and Tap-DI:ing out of PK Fire and/or get Jab Comboed.

or it'd take a really good ness player. have you even played a good ness player?

 

[cutter]

Dair has startup time and the hitbox is mediocre. Then again, I play G&W so I can just Uair Ness and he can never spike.

PKT2 is one of the most telegraphed attacks in the game.

PK Fire can be DIed out of with ease.

Jab lock... okay.

 

[Yuna]

everybody says to go out and thunder steal ness, what they dont know is they'll get ***** by the PKT2. also if you play a good ness he'll throw in mindgames with the pk thunder juggle, you will get hit by this at least once every 3 matches

Ness' recovery is one of the most predictable ones in the game. The fact that some people misjudge when they can jump out and hit Ness out of it does not make PKT2 a good offensive strategy. You cannot juggle using PKT2, you juggle using PKT1.

Once every 3 matches =/= Really good

yea and once you get out of the first pk fire you get grabbed or hit with another pk fire

If you're a moron, yes. It'd take Ness hitting from almost point-blank range and/or you Smash DI:ing and airdodging into him.

or it'd take a really good ness player. have you even played a good ness player?

No matter how good the Ness player is, his Dair will still be sluggish and because of this be easy to see coming (so we can Meteor Cancel it). It will still have mediocre reach.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness' recovery is one of the most predictable ones in the game. The fact that some people misjudge when they can jump out and hit Ness out of it does not make PKT2 a good offensive strategy. You cannot juggle using PKT2, you juggle using PKT1.

Once every 3 matches =/= Really good

never said the PKT2 juggles, and you said that if you get hit with the PKT2 at all you're a moron, i gave you a situation where most people get hit with the PKT2

If you're a moron, yes. It'd take Ness hitting from almost point-blank range and/or you Smash DI:ing and airdodging into him.

if the pk fire connects at all, it gives ness enough time to run up to you and grab you.

No matter how good the Ness player is, his Dair will still be sluggish and because of this be easy to see coming (so we can Meteor Cancel it). It will still have mediocre reach.

because you know good players can't time things right? there's no way anybody will ever connect with DK's fair spike or lucas's bair spike just because it has start up lag, what was i thinking. just because its telegraphed doesn't mean that it won't connect, and like i said, try to meteor cancel his dair on smashville


answer my last question or stop talking, thanks

 

[Yuna]

grab release > dair

if the dair connects you're dead on smashville, LC, and BF

Grab release -> Dair =/= Dair at 0%

Also, since when does one lose one's 2nd Jump and ability to Meteor Cancel just because one got Grab Released? And since when does one auto-die from Meteor Smashes on Smashviille, Lylat Cruise or Smashville? Since when does Grab Releasing magically teleport once below the main platform? Also, ever heard of Reverse Up B:ing instead of Up B:ing into the stage's main platform?

never said the PKT2 juggles, and you said that if you get hit with the PKT2 at all you're a moron, i gave you a situation where most people get hit with the PKT2

Me:
"You have to be idiot to constantly get hit by PKT2."

By the way, English is my third language. It must be your 5th.

Also, given the right circumstances and mistakes, anyone can get hit by anything. Doesn't mean it's a valid strategy or a real strength. "I can hit people with Ike's Fsmash if they run into it!" - "Uh... yah."

if the pk fire connects at all, it gives ness enough time to run up to you and grab you.

Um... no.

because you know good players can't time things right?

So the Ness is good enough to hit with Ness' Dair but the player getting hit isn't good enough to simply friggin' Meteor Cancel it?! It's not about the Ness players being able to actually time and space the Dair and Meteor Smash with it. It's about the fact that good players do not die at 0% from Ness' Dair because they just Meteor Cancel it.

there's no way anybody will ever connect with DK's fair spike or lucas's bair spike just because it has start up lag, what was i thinking.

I'm sorry, I said this when? The fact that it has startup lag makes it predictable and not a "OMFG! Surprise 5 frame Dair!" Meteor Smash. You see it coming. As such, if you're good, you'll see it coming and be able to Meteor Smash it on reaction instead of pure prediction like with certain Meteor Smashes.

English must be your 10th language.

just because its telegraphed doesn't mean that it won't connect, and like i said, try to meteor cancel his dair on smashville

Why would it be harder to Meteor Cancel in Smashville? What, like Ness is gonna constantly Meteor Smash you while you're under the stage (literally, as under the main platform)? Yes, that happens a lot.

Nobody ever mentioned it not connecting. English must be your 15th language.

answer my last question or stop talking, thanks

What, whether I'd ever played a good Ness player? Yes, I have. But he's not by any means a "Pro level" player. However, that does not change the fact that Ness works the way he works, the game works the way it works and you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

 

[ColinJF]

If anybody thinks that pk thunder 2 isn't a reliable kill move, you obviously haven't played a competent Ness. In this game, it is incredibly easy to land at least once per match, considering you can combo into it (and yes, I am talking about a true combo here -- you can't DI out of tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2) and if the opponent manages to avoid the tail you are pretty much completely safe as you descend. And that's not even counting the psychological consequences of being hit by it once, such as a tendency to shield too much when pk thunder is being used (a tendency that is easily exploited). I don't think I've ever played anybody who's managed to avoid dying to pk thunder 2 on a regular basis, and I haven't been playing morons (my region doesn't have any famous players that I know of, but they aren't idiots, and they get hit by pk thunder 2).

Ness's recovery is far from predictable by the way. His double jump arc is huge and he can throw out either his up or forward aerial for protection (both have insane priority and the forward air has really good range). An overzealous opponent will often find himself falling into the tail (which means it's over) and if you've landed pk thunder 2 before being hit off the stage (which is fairly likely) then the opponent often hesitates to jump off after you in the first place. Of course, you don't need to rely on this because Ness can recover from a wide variety of angles (with the proper precision) and his aerials offer plenty of protection; however, the hesitation is nevertheless a phenomenon you will observe.

Also Ness's down air rules, but not so much as a spike... it's an incredible approach and spacing tool. If done from a short hop, it has no landing lag, and you can lad behind the opponent and avoid a turnaround grab. It pokes above shields pretty much always, and it has enough hitstun that it actually leads into an up air or up tilt trap.

And to address the original topic, honestly Marth's chaingrab is overrated. If you are grabbed at low damage, across the whole stage it does around 60-80%. But what sort of competent player is going to be grabbed from behind while standing on the edge of the stage? Played carefully, you will be looking at around 30% from a typical grab, and you shouldn't be grabbed too much in the first place. Plus, if you get Yoshi's Island as your first stage (or you can counterpick it), Marth is forced to dash grab to regrab and it will do around 20% across the stage. Considering that without the chaingrab, this match is basically neutral (Ness's forward air actually beats out Marth's among other things), it's far from unwinnable, though it is definitely an uphill battle.

 

[Yuna]

If anybody thinks that pk thunder 2 isn't a reliable kill move, you obviously haven't played a competent Ness. In this game, it is incredibly easy to land at least once per match, considering you can combo into it (and yes, I am talking about a true combo here -- you can't DI out of tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2) and if the opponent manages to avoid the tail you are pretty much completely safe as you descend.

Praying is extremely situational. Also, ever heard of airdodging?

And that's not even counting the psychological consequences of being hit by it once, such as a tendency to shield too much when pk thunder is being used (a tendency that is easily exploited). I don't think I've ever played anybody who's managed to avoid dying to pk thunder 2 on a regular basis, and I haven't been playing morons (my region doesn't have any famous players that I know of, but they aren't idiots, and they get hit by pk thunder 2).

So the Ness player is good but the opponent isn't, screwing up constantly?

Ness's recovery is far from predictable by the way. His double jump arc is huge and he can throw out either his up or forward aerial for protection (both have insane priority and the forward air has really good range).

His Up B is once of the slowest and most predictable Up Bs in the game. His 2nd jump is large, but, hey, there are plenty of characters in the game who excel at edgeguarding to such a degree it's not really that good.

His recovery is far from being the worst, but it's very predictable, especially Up B.

Stuff.

More BS assumptions that Ness players will constantly play a perfect game while his opponents will keep screwing up and get "mindgamed" by the same things over and over.

 

[Deleted member]

What, whether I'd ever played a good Ness player? Yes, I have. But he's not by any means a "Pro level" player. However, that does not change the fact that Ness works the way he works, the game works the way it works and you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

whats his name, tourney results and or videos please.

just because ness looks terrible on paper doesn't mean that he's not beastly when played by somebody that knows how to play ness correctly.

 

[ColinJF]

Praying is extremely situational. Also, ever heard of airdodging?

I don't think you understand what I am talking about.

Basically, you hit the opponent into the air, entice them into using their second jump, and then you jump near them and use pk thunder. Now they have a few options. If they do nothing they fall into the tail and it's over. What they want to do is air dodge, but it's not that simple because you can change the angle pk thunder 2 will go dramatically in a fraction of a second. After hitting Ness with pk thunder, he moves so fast that it cannot be air dodged on reaction. That means you need to look at when pk thunder is going to hit him to do your air dodge. But get this: the direction Ness goes isn't based on the direction pk thunder is moving, it's based on where it hits Ness on his body. That means you can effectively make it look as if you are going to shoot it at one angle (requiring one air dodge timing) and then shoot at a slightly different angle (requiring a different air dodge timing). Basically, the opponent is forced to guess the air dodge timing. If they guess wrong, they are dead... if they guess right, Ness is safe because you won't be in any position to punish him. This guessing game is in Ness's favour.

Now if you are having a hard time picturing this, it's probably because -- as I said -- you have not played a competent Ness. Unlike the earlier poster, I am not talking about hoping the opponent messes up, I am talking about forcing them to guess an air dodge timing (or else fall into the tail and die for sure). This is NOT a novelty and it works on a regular basis.

As for your other comments, I think they are unfair; I didn't make any "BS assumptions". I gave an accurate overview of what the chaingrab really should mean to Ness players. It isn't an auto-lose, it's a good chuck of damage, and it's far from unwinnable. Rather than whining about what Ness "could have been" or talking about banning things, I am describing the reality, and it is not that bad. Like you, Yuna, I don't support banning this chaingrab, and that was the point of that paragraph.

 

[Yuna]

whats his name, tourney results and or videos please.

This has absolutely zero bearing on the fact that Ness' Dair does not kill good players at 0% or any of the things I've said so far in this thread.

just because ness looks terrible on paper doesn't mean that he's not beastly when played by somebody that knows how to play ness correctly.

I claimed this when? Your reading comprehension needs some serious work.

Stuff

"Praying, PKT2 and Tailwhiping are really good if the opponent is unfamiliar with the matchup."

 

[ColinJF]

Funny you make a big deal out of "reading comprehension", Yuna, and then attribute to me something I didn't say. Isn't that, you know, hypocritical?

Nothing I've said requires prayer or unfamiliar opponents. A few characters can reliably defend against pk thunder 2, but the vast majority cannot. And by the way, the tail of pk thunder has no hurtboxes, so aerials do not help you in the guessing game I described above, in case you were concerned about that (although using aerials against the tail is something I would expect from somebody unfamiliar with the match up).

 

[Yuna]

Funny you make a big deal out of "reading comprehension", Yuna, and then attribute to me something I didn't say. Isn't that, you know, hypocritical?

That was a misquote. I Copy/Pasted it and got the wrong one. I just made a mistake when Copy/Pasting. I accidentally attributed something you said to ArkiveZero and he said to you. I'm terribly sorry for this.

You suffer from Chronic Reading Comprehension Symdrome (and I see you're also of the "It didn't happen!"-school when called on it and the "Let's change the subject!"- and "Irrelevant sidetracking!"-schools ("Which Nesses have you faced?")).

I'll edit my "hypocritical" mistakes out of my previous post.

 

[ColinJF]

By the way, Yuna, there are two different people disagreeing with you in this topic. You seem to have us confused. I can't say I agree with what the other person is saying, because I have not really read his posts.

Also, although I apologise for calling you a hypocrite, it's pretty evident you don't appreciate that pk thunder 2 is actually a viable kill move on a regular basis against non-idiots.

 

[Yuna]

By the way, Yuna, there are two different people disagreeing with you in this topic. You seem to have us confused. I can't say I agree with what the other person is saying, because I have not really read his posts.

Read my previous post. You should already have read it.

Because either you somehow missed it despite it being directed at you or you double posted for no good reason (I only double post if the thread is currently being spammed with multiple posts a minute or my previous post was really, really long).

 

[ColinJF]

This is what I said about Ness's down air (and the ONLY thing I said):

Also Ness's down air rules, but not so much as a spike... it's an incredible approach and spacing tool. If done from a short hop, it has no landing lag, and you can lad behind the opponent and avoid a turnaround grab. It pokes above shields pretty much always, and it has enough hitstun that it actually leads into an up air or up tilt trap.

I think you edited your post above or something because when I replied to it it wasn't evident you realised there were two people in play... and you still seem to be a bit confused.