What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[Jim Morrison]

here's something sexy. You know you can do a turnaround side-B right. when you press side-B, quickly the other way. You can even do that running. So how about a turnaround running SpinShot. TRSS, another useless trick.
Also there is extreme pivot grabbing. Doing turnaround Spindash (TSD) and immedeatly grab. It's probably the same or worse than pivot grabbing, but way cooler

 

[Chis]

Edit: sorry, wrong thread...

 

[Tenki]

here's something sexy. You know you can do a turnaround side-B right. when you press side-B, quickly the other way. You can even do that running. So how about a turnaround running SpinShot. TRSS, another useless trick.
Also there is extreme pivot grabbing. Doing turnaround Spindash (TSD) and immedeatly grab. It's probably the same or worse than pivot grabbing, but way cooler

lol i used to use that alot.

for Sonic, it's a little better than pivot grabbing because you can use the shield cancel's delay to wait for the opponent's spotdodge. Normally, if you just went for a run-behind pivot grab, you'd run too fast and miss the grab because your opponent would still be dodging. If you use a B-reversed SDSC you can slow it down :<

also, on first glance (eg, almost any opponent you'll fight in a tourney), it's alot spazzier and weird looking than a normal shield cancelled side-B, so it can disorient some opponents.

Something weird I do sometimes is charge a side-B facing away from opponent, then shieldcancel and roll towards them.

It's really dumb, but for some reason it works once in a while lol.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol @ cheap tricks which require input.

 

[infomon]

Out of a run, what's the benefit of using a B-reversed SDSC instead of just an SDSC? Which way would you B-reverse it? (You can run left, and B-reverse it left-to-right or right-to-left.....) I mean, which do you find more useful; obv you'd want to grab whichever direction your opponent is

I hope I'm making sense. altho lol @ Tenki, Sonic does seem to spaz out if you b-reverse a lot

 

[Tenki]

Out of a run, what's the benefit of using a B-reversed SDSC instead of just an SDSC? Which way would you B-reverse it? (You can run left, and B-reverse it left-to-right or right-to-left.....) I mean, which do you find more useful; obv you'd want to grab whichever direction your opponent is

I hope I'm making sense. altho lol @ Tenki, Sonic does seem to spaz out if you b-reverse a lot

If you go for a b-reversed SDSC, it's probably for a run-behind grab:

run forward (past opponent) > b-reverse > grab.

something else that I mentioned a while back when experimenting with it was a:

run away from opponent (opponent chase/react) > B-reverse towards opponent > release

 

[Jim Morrison]

Even cooler is Spinshotting overhead. Tenki, do you have vacation now?

 

[infomon]

If you go for a b-reversed SDSC, it's probably for a run-behind grab:

run forward (past opponent) > b-reverse > grab.

But that doesn't need to be b-reversed, right? Can't you just run past them > side-B facing backwards > grab ?

The problem is I think to do that, you have to swing the control stick from Forward (run) to backwards (to do the side-B), and in the in-between it will register that you stopped running so it will go into screech-stop. I wonder if there are lag-frames at the start of screech-stop before you're able to do other things? (altho you can do anything from that screech-stop so hopefully it's not a problem)

Of course, you may also end up doing a dash-turnaround, which would be very bad. I think you can input either of those two depending on your timing. Ideally, there wouldn't need to be any screech-stop, it would be an immediate backwards SD out of run. I think that's possible.

If it isn't, then using a B-reverse'd (forwards-to-backwards) side-B is our only option for this, and if that's the case then I'll agree it's extremely useful.

Ah, Sonic and his ridiculous subtleties >.>

Edit: on second thought, B-reversed SD out of run is really the easiest/safest option to input, so maybe I'm being silly.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Infzy, I am confused about your screech stopping. Stop the theory and just check it out. It's just putting in Side-B (way you are running), quickly fling control stick back, so it turns around. Then you can either SDSC grab or just press Z and immedeatly grab.

 

[infomon]

lol, can't use my wii for another 30mins or so.

You're doing a b-reversed SD, you SD forwards then quickly tap backwards, I get that. I was musing about just doing the SD backwards, no b-reversing; like, press B when the control-stick is already aimed backwards. If you can do that, you should further be able to run forwards, SD backwards but b-reverse it forwards again, lolol. I don't know if there's any reason to ever do that though

 

[Jim Morrison]

you can't do that while running.

 

[infomon]

hmmmmm, it would seem that you're right.... I'll have to experiment moar.

 

[Jim Morrison]

you'll just do a turnaround run (pivot)

 

[Tenki]

You'd end up doing a screech stop> delayed turnaround if you do it too fast.

and if you're gonna screech stop, you might as well just screech stop --> stand --> turn around grab.

 

[Espy Rose]

Tenki, a question. (Hell this would be for anyone really.)

I know it would never happen in a match, because the knockback makes it impossible, not to mention DI, but:

Can an ASC hit five times in the air?
I did an ASC against Duon in SSE earlier today, and I counted 5 hits before hitting the ground.

 

[infomon]

ASC ruins bosses.

So long as there's a hurtbox in front of you, it'll keep going. So yeah.

 

[Espy Rose]

ASC ruins bosses.

So long as there's a hurtbox in front of you, it'll keep going. So yeah.

Okay, just making sure.
I thought for a moment I might have made some fresh steak.
But the same ol' stuff isn't bad though.

Thanksies.

 

[thecatinthehat]

ASC > bair > spring > dair > sh> fair ***** master hand.

 

[infomon]

Epic boss combo. ftw.

 

[JayBee]

...
youre STILL playing SSE?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Boss Battles.

 

[Napilopez]

So I'm pretty confident now that ASC projectile omnomnom properties have to do with simply holding forward. It seems similar to what Tenki had said about multihit attacks beating out glide attack it seems. I've ben able to go through Mario and Luigi's fireball with ASC now too, and that has nothing to do with the 10 percent rule as ASC always does 10% or less damage for individual hits. In fact I went through one fireball with asc, then immediately was beaten the next time I wasn't holding forward. I think the reason no one may have noticed for sure is that one doesn't always tend to hold forward when you're approaching a projectile, as opposed to approaching an opponent.

Still, I'm not 100% certain. I gotta remember to ask someone to help me test online =/

 

[infomon]

When you start an ASC, it goes at a speed fast enough to have a hitbox. If you let go of the control stick, it will slow down to the point where the hitbox isn't there. So you have to at least tilt forward somewhat if you want to be able to beat anything.

ASC can do between 6-11% iirc. Almost any hitbox can destroy a fireball, and aerials (including aerial specials) can't generally be "interrupted" ie. "put away" in the sense that you can quickly put away a ground move like a jab or an Fsmash, after a clash. That's why the 10% rule vs. fireballs doesn't really seem to take effect with ASC. If it's within 10% damage (ie. if the attack will deal as much as 22% or less, and isn't of transcendent/aerial/"laser" priority), ASC should eat it... and ASC-fast-enough-to-have-a-hitbox is afaict just a multi-hit attack, as multi-hitting as you want it to be.... so yeah it'll OMNOMNOM until you land or actually get an attack into Sonic's hurtbox, or just slow it down lol.

ummmm /uselessrant

 

[Tenki]

But. I get hit out of ASC by turnips/charged auraspheres when I'm like, high in midair.

Meanwhile, I eat them when I'm landing.

Also, I seem to have been able to pull off something similar to this with side-B's landing.

`.`;

 

[ShadowLink84]

But. I get hit out of ASC by turnips/charged auraspheres when I'm like, high in midair.

Meanwhile, I eat them when I'm landing.

Also, I seem to have been able to pull off something similar to this with side-B's landing.

`.`;

It is because just like a regular down B the moment of high priority is right as you release the ASC during which the hitbox will diminish overtime.
It may also be because of the fact that the turnips and auraspheres are bigger and so they have a better ability of touching the hurtbox.


On an interesting note there arepossibly invincibility frames right when you begin an ASC but I haven't tested it yet.

 

[Napilopez]

But... I've been through auraspheres and in general projectiles of all sizes. I'm pretty sure I've been through links arrows too. And I',m not sure it has to do with it being right during the release.... I can recally having done it from high up in the air and then eating out an aurasphere shot from the ground =/ Although not totally sure.

Gah.

 

[Espy Rose]

...
youre STILL playing SSE?

When I'm bored.

I hate the physics in SSE. They're much slower during the actual levels. Sonic runs sooo SLOOOOW.

Which is why I SDR everywhere. And threw on stickers that increased SDR's damage output. Nothing says "**** the primid" like rolling over and killing them in one hit.

 

[~TBS~]

But... I've been through auraspheres and in general projectiles of all sizes. I'm pretty sure I've been through links arrows too. And I',m not sure it has to do with it being right during the release.... I can recally having done it from high up in the air and then eating out an aurasphere shot from the ground =/ Although not totally sure.

Gah.

hmm...lucario's aurasphere has to be weak to eat through it. if its huge, you arent getting past that. ASC high up in the air isn't any different from the SH ASC, i think... someone needs to experiment, because i am at school...If ASC does have those kinds of properties in the air, that can really help.

 

[Napilopez]

hmm...lucario's aurasphere has to be weak to eat through it. if its huge, you arent getting past that. ASC high up in the air isn't any different from the SH ASC, i think... someone needs to experiment, because i am at school...If ASC does have those kinds of properties in the air, that can really help.

Nonono it goes through fully charged high damage ones too XD. You must've missed the discussion me Tenki and others had about it a while back. I've been through plenty of huge, unstale, 170+ damage auraspheres with ASC.

 

[Tenki]

But, I'd get knocked out of ASC by those moves if I were high above the ground, whereas I'd "eat" the projectiles if I was landing.

9_9;

 

[~TBS~]

hold up...whait??
his landing ASC eats projectiles?

 

[Jim Morrison]

It's truf. Maybe it has a few invicibility frames upon landing?

Probably not

 

[Tenki]

It seems that way, at least for items. I have never seen it work against a physical 'character' move, nor lasers, though.

That's why it needs more testing.

this phenomenon of the "omnomnom" frames is really weird xD

Normally I'd get hit out of ASC by turnips and fully charged high % Lucario Aura Spheres, but via these ONN/landing frames, the projectiles get nullified AND Sonic continues on the ground with the SDR.

weird, huh?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Almost... extraordinary, I'd say.

 

[~TBS~]

if we can pull this off, it will be steak.
but, wont it be hard to time this? just like that?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Well, it's not that it's like 3 frames. It's actually quite a few. I do this when I'm about one Sonic-ball height above the ground, till the actual animation of SDR.

 

[Tenki]

remember, you can float while charging ASC, so you can use that to help position yourself, and if you can't, then you can C-stick spinshot from ASC as an alternative.

but anyway, so far, I don't think anyone has done specific testing - we all just 'noticed' it in matches while we play lol.

 

[Napilopez]

but anyway, so far, I don't think anyone has done specific testing - we all just 'noticed' it in matches while we play lol.

I tried to replicate in training mode but was unable to by myself -_-. Someone playing in the Wifi thread try to sort this out!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Just to point out - If Peach's Turnips are shielded or attack, they will disappear

:3

*vanishes*

 

[infomon]

Hmmmmm......

OM NOM NOM frames exist. I have visual, recorded confirmation.
Doing more testing. Rawr!

...... aaaaaand, my batteries died in my second wiimote. I'll have to go raid my wiifit balance board, lulllz, but I can't do any more wii today anyway. Got srs bsns to do.

Anyway, here are my thoughts. Training mode, Lucario at 50%, fully charged sphere does 16% damage. Sometimes I'll eat right through it with ASC, ASC keeps going to land in an SDR and roll ahead. At this percent, an SDR destroys the aura sphere but the SDR is stopped in its tracks (no damage to Sonic). Sometimes the aura sphere hits ASC. It seems pretty inconsistent. For a while I could only OMNOMNOM. I think it's a matter of making sure the ASC is at top-speed, and you have to hit the aurasphere from slightly above. If you're ASC'ing from a shorthop, in the first few frames it's not at top speed so it's harder to destroy it. But if ASC is out for too long, it's also a bit finnicky about being at AS-destroying speed, but I was able to kill an AS with an ASC that had been out for a long amount of time.

It also doesn't have to do with the ASC being at just-above-landing-height; I put Lucario on a middle platform on Battlefield, and ate through one with an ASC under the top platform (ie. with no platform immediately under Sonic).

It's quite possible that we can't OMNOMNOM spheres that are much bigger. idk