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What You Didn't Know About Meta Knight's Match-Ups.
- Thread starter Xzax Kasrani
- Start date
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
I agree that Snake is one of the best characters to take down MK, in the same fashion that a dog is better at fighting a grizzly bear then a kitten would be.
It still doesn't mean it's an easy fight.
It still doesn't mean it's an easy fight.
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
Vids of both of these, nao
Snakeee
Smash Master
I asked Bum for the replay of the match against Inui, because Inui was cool with it. I might get it up later this week.
For now I have friendlies against my brother who is probably the best MK in NY and knows the match up against ZSS better than anyone else since we play against each other all the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gED2BmV6Ug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jarKZempN0E&feature=related
btw something I discovered against Metaknight very recently is that ZSS can simply down B special footstool right over Metaknight's tornado instantly without being hit. Xazx, you should add that to the first post, since it does help her in the match up a lot.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
doesnt everyone gr cg lucas?
The Diddy Boards analysis of the MK matchup.
Le_THieN did a great job with it.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638
Le_THieN did a great job with it.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181638
Week #3
Meta Knight
Match-Up Estimate: 4 : 6
[This match-up is slightly in Meta Knight's favor]
~ Props to Le_THieN for doing a massive re-write
Meta Knight's Advantages:
Diddy's Advantages:
- superiority in almost every characteristic facet imaginable:
- speed
- range
- priority
- aerial mobility
- very small hurt-boxes
- disjointed hit-boxes on virtually all attacks
- boasts the longest, safest, and most versatile recovery in the game
Specific Match-Up Points:
- bananas out-prioritize every single move in Meta Knight's arsenal
- can arguably kill with successfully-landed KO moves at earlier percentages
Strategic Notes:
- Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is, best to my knowledge, still in the running to be named the absolute best special move in the game. It is a special attack that combines blistering speed, high priority, and an absurd amount of knock-back at low percentages that not only makes it the perfect anti-air and anti-edge-guarding tool, but also doubles as an ideal off-stage gimping resource.
- On top of that, it has at least one frame of super armor during its nearly nonexistent start-up, and automatically places Meta Knight into a gliding state - setting him up for a glide attack equal in priority and power.
- If the glide attack is executed near the ground, it can be lag-canceled into any number of Meta Knight's other, near-lagless ground attacks. This makes this possible three-move chain virtually unpunishable.
- Meta Knight's fast ground speed, high-priority special moves and plethora of ranged, disjointed attacks all grant him the ability to quite literally crush the spacing of every single character in the game.
- Additionally, Meta Knight has absolute aerial superiority in every way. Aside from a ground game that shuts down most other characters' abilities to safely approach horizontally, Meta Knight is even able to administer a ridiculous degree of pressure by vertically spacing with his fast, ranged and lagless U-air and D-air.
- All four of MK's special moves grant him some degree of significant mobility; this effectively grants him four different recovery options.
- Most Meta Knight mains will stay in a constant state of flight and zone from the air in order to decrease the effectiveness of Diddy's banana approaches.
- Diddy is very, very susceptible to Meta Knight's off-stage gimping game due to the vulnerable nature of both the charged and blasted states of the Rocket Barrel Blast. If Meta Knight intercepts Diddy at any point of the Rocket Barrel Blast, Diddy is almost as good as dead.
- As previously mentioned, there is one trump card that Diddy has over Meta Knight (as well as the remaining entirety of the rest of the Brawl cast) that he will never be able to beat if they are effectively deployed: bananas. Combined with unique ability to readjust spacing with glide-tossing, you will always be able to quickly capitalize on a Meta Knight who enters a tripping state or a short banana hit-stun state in the air. The smart, measured application of bananas in this match-up will ultimately determine which direction the favor will swing in; it's therefore imperative that Diddy has bananas out at all times.
- The Mach Tornado is one specific move that MK mains are fond of whose respective cool-down frames can be taken advantage of with glide-tossing. Diddy has surprisingly diligent shield endurance against the Mach Tornado, and he can immediately glide-toss out of a shield in order to punish the Mach Tornado's period of cool-down.
- Similarly, D-smash is easily one of MK's most used and abused attacks due to its blinding attack speed and strength, as well as nearly nonexistent execution lag. If I recall correctly, the second hit of the attack actually has more knock-back, so expect to see a D-smash if you anywhere in range, especially from behind. Use prudent positioning in order to get behind him and bait the move - even with slight shield-stun, there is still just enough time for Diddy to get in a glide-toss before Meta Knight can spot-dodge or get his own shield up. Even if the timing is whiffed and MK manages to block the banana, make sure that you always glide toss forward in order to close distance and quickly follow up with a grab.
- If Meta Knight takes to the skies, do not even attempt to go head-to-head with any of his disjointed aerial attacks (unless you have a banana in your hand or you are punishing a whiffed attack). Hit, re-space and run by harassing Meta Knight while he is in the air with a salvo of peanuts varying in height and jumping banana throws in order to bring him back to the ground.
- Surprisingly, Diddy has a diverse array of options in order to interrupt and override the Mach Tornado:
- Banana Peels
- Diddy Hump
- F-tilt
- fast-falled N-air (above the whirlwind)
- Rocket Barrel Blast (you must allow yourself to be hit during the charged state)
The Diddy Hump and F-tilt in particular require a high degree of spacing awareness and directional anticipation of which way Meta Knight will go once he has activated the Mach Tornado.- For as excellent as Meta Knight's overall recovery might be, Diddy has the distinct advantage of having the superior recovery that combines the longest and furthest horizontal and vertical trajectory – with, of course, proper aerial spacing and enough of a barrel charge. Meta Knight mains who are aggressively edge-guarding you will almost never chase you any further off-stage if you actually jump or Monkey Flip backwards in order to adjust spacing for your Rocket Barrel Blast. By that point, you will already be charging your barrels to maximum charge, and the slow descent of your charged state will position you off-stage in such a way that you are actually too low and too far away for Meta Knight to gimp you and recover himself. It takes some practice and precise directional influence, but it is logically one of the safest ways to recover without putting yourself in immediate danger of being directly gimped.
- If possible, it is worth the effort for you to bait Meta Knight some distance off-stage before you re-space by jumping backwards. Opponents will then be faced with the dilemma of pushing onward with the chase (in which case they will also face the higher probability of death), or simply turning around and flying back on-stage. If they choose the latter, you occasionally score free damage by to rocket-barreling back onto the stage, but not before you blow through an actually helpless Meta Knight.
- The Drill Rush is easily escapable. You can minimize the damage it inflicts by smash-DIing through it.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Bowser is, play an amazing Bowser.
HolyKnight
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 251
There's a big difference between a high tier character, and someone playing as a **** character with a lot of skill.
Anyway, this topic deserves lots 'o lols.
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
I thought Bowser was mid tier...
Master Raven
Smash Master
*looks at vyse's sig*
Ever17 ftw.
Ever17 ftw.
Overswarm disagrees -- who has more credibility about ROB?
Master Raven knows where it's at
The MK was making a fair number of little mistakes -- dashing through your shield trying to throw a bit of armor at you, walking into your over B occasionally (He *knows* you have it why is he trying to approach directly from the side?) missing punishing a whiffed dsmash because he didn't attack right away, completely missing a shuttle loop edge guard, little things like that. On the other hand, you were punishing him almost every time he did one of those -- I'd say it's an example of a better player using ZSS beating MK, and not so much evidence that ZSS goes even with MK.
He is.I thought Bowser was mid tier...
I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped a few spots.
Also, kookie speaks the truth.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Bowser may not be that great but he's most certainly not a **** character.
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
He basically said everything I was gonna say. Your talent appears to be better then his, still not sure about the character.
Rh1thmz
Smash Journeyman
Yoshi is quite low on the tier list, but his strategies seem to counteract MK in weird ways. Someone doesn't have to be high tier to compete with a high tier character, even though that is frequently the case.
You know, this topic might deserve "lots 'o lols," or it might not. However, you should actually discuss the truth or the lack thereof in the statement that these characters do well against MK instead of just saying "This top1c R G444Y L4WL!!!!" and leaving the topic. Supported reasons why these characters do or don't do well against MK are appreciated in place of baseless flame against the topic; baseless flame doesn't do us any good in the long run.
Valdens
Smash Ace
Lol @ giving slanted matchup info to make people think Meta's not broken.
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
lol at Valdens, its true. This isn't trying to prove meta isnt broken, but that meta isnt bannable
It does no good for the pro-MK side to present misinformation. You need concrete evidence from tournaments that these characters can go toe to toe with the top MKs and win half the time if you want to show that.
Proving he has (maybe) a couple more even matchups still won't be enough to stop a ban on him anyway, you have to explain why he's not overcentralizing and destroying the competitive metagame.
You'd have better luck demonstrating he's not broken than that he's not bannable.
Deception
Smash Ace
I'm surprised no one mentions DK. He's been mentioned for going even with MK a few times, but not very often.
LieutenantSerg
Smash Lord
Doesnt DK have some grab release sort of thing on MK?
or maybe the other way around lol
or maybe the other way around lol
Mmac
Smash Lord
Master Raven
Smash Master
I don't think there's much evidence of DK going even with MK, but I do think he can fare against him better than some of the cast.
LieutenantSerg
Smash Lord
I guess his recovery does help him in the matchup
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
I think one of those matchup charts claims DK vs MK is even, but it's clearly not. as far as I can see the closest thing MK has to even is snake, who is only at a 45:55 disadvantage or so. ZSS and bowser I really have to doubt, actually I'd call bowser being in this discussion pretty ridiculous, MK still has a comfortable advantage on him on any stage. olimar...not too sure what to think, I keep seeing the word "perfect" thrown around in terms of how olimar has to play to have the advantage, that's not a good practice in analysis of characters, if someone plays perfect they can beat your MK with almost anyone, doesn't mean they had an advantage inherent in the game. not saying olimar doesn't have the goods, I just have to kind of object to the phrase "perfect camp" here, I don't think saying a character can counter MK if they play perfectly is really productive...
HolyKnight
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 251
DK doesn't have much on mk, just a long range spammable b-air and then the headbutt followed by the donkey punch.
Lol...
Lol...
Ulevo
Smash Master
Hm, let's see. Heavier weight by far. Longer reach on most attacks, including UTilt, DTilt, FTilt, Bair, FSmash, USmash... Far stronger attacks. A DSmash that kills at around 80%. A FThrow that kills at about 50%. You're absolutely right. I don't see what DK has on Meta Knight.
No it doesn't. It is probably one of the only problems DK has against Meta Knight. He is able to avoid being gimped by proper DI, but he is very vulnerable after his Up B, and can be knocked off stage again.
HolyKnight
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2008
- Messages
- 251
Sarcasm is ftw you know.
Derp.
Derp.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
you see this is where people decide to be dumb. Sheik is the best in melee despite tourney evidence, you cannot just base off what people play. Jigglypuff doesn't suddenly get way better when mango uses her, she was always that good, it's just no one good (or not enough good people, especially not enough to find the right player) played her seriously or DEVELOPED HER CHARACTER. This is the problem with the brawl community, all you guys do is whine and john instead of using other characters and playing with them. Almost every character has been undeveloped a ton. When you have an extreme amount of MKs all playing and copying off each other and tons of people using him, he is going to take a lot of top places. That's why your argument, that argument, is not a good one.
I have no problems with ppl saying MK should be banned, if they have good reasons (few of them have though...). But what's going on here is just...incredibly dumb. Just for you guys who fill these threads with crap, I would hope MK doesn't get banned
Read the goddammit OP! Bowser has a Release CG on MK and all you guys say is "Bowser sux lolololol". Think about what that means!
Ppl complain constantly that the Metagame doesn't evolve and that MK causes it to freeze. And suddenly (or actually not so suddenly...) it turns out that Bowser has a release CG on him - a drastic change in the Metagame - and everybody just says how much Bowser sucks? Are you f*cking dumb or what?
M2k said, that most characters Metagame hasn't developed enough yet, to make a ban of MK acceptable. He said it enough times. How ignorant are you guys to put down such a tremendous achievement. This is not just some random Falco "CG-from-0-to-40%-BS", this comes close to a 0 death combo. And all you say is that Bowser sucks? How dumb is that?
Read the goddammit OP! Bowser has a Release CG on MK and all you guys say is "Bowser sux lolololol". Think about what that means!
Ppl complain constantly that the Metagame doesn't evolve and that MK causes it to freeze. And suddenly (or actually not so suddenly...) it turns out that Bowser has a release CG on him - a drastic change in the Metagame - and everybody just says how much Bowser sucks? Are you f*cking dumb or what?
M2k said, that most characters Metagame hasn't developed enough yet, to make a ban of MK acceptable. He said it enough times. How ignorant are you guys to put down such a tremendous achievement. This is not just some random Falco "CG-from-0-to-40%-BS", this comes close to a 0 death combo. And all you say is that Bowser sucks? How dumb is that?
Snakeee
Smash Master
QFT. This is exactly what I've been saying all along. In this case instead of trying to innovate, people just blame their characters and say Metaknight can't be defeated with them. What I did was look at the common tactics of Metaknight and think, "hmm, what can I do to stop that?". It's usually not too hard to try to come up with something. Every character must have at least something they can do against metaknight's common tactics that hasn't been realized yet.
Besides the whole Metaknight thing, every character has untapped potential in general. The game is still relatively new, and a lot of characters haven't even been used enough to properly judge them and place them in a tier list.
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Every character has potential, which is just awesome. Look how far we have come already and how fast the meta-game is evolving. I cant wait to see where we are in a year from now.
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
Actually no, Bowser chaingrab only does about 40 % if done correctly, but can be done at any % and be finished with either an overb or fair which would kill him around 120ish
Apply the first line to yourself. See, I don't like being insulting like that, but if you're going to call names you should at least be responding accurately. But you didn't respond to my post. It doesn't even look like you took the time to read it a second time before jumping on me. Yes, it took a little reading comprehension, but I clearly linked "win half the time" with "go toe to toe with the top MKs". That doesn't automatically mean "win the tournament" -- unless you're only a top MK in the finals.
I never said that these characters should be winning tournaments, I said they should be winning half the matches they engage with against the top MK players in tournament situations -- that is proof of the matchups being 50/50, not this unsupported theorycrafting. Every example provided here of a counter to MK is only theorycrafted, not proven. The only reason I mentioned tournaments is because that's where people are most likely to be playing seriously. Whether it's the first round or not, most people will be trying their best to win there when we don't have that added weight to friendlies.
@Gheb_01: CGs for 40% + death at 120% still rely on being grabbed, how easy is that for Bowser to do to MK? Be realistic here, if it's easy enough to get ahold of MK then it shouldn't just be an advantage on FD but help him out anywhere because it would mean any grab would be a free fair or overb. If it's not that easy to grab him, it's not likely enough to tip the matchup in Bowser's favor on FD. Until someone demonstrates it making the claimed difference, Bowser vs. MK 50:50 or better anywhere is just more theorycraft.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
If we ban MK, we'll never learn what unfavorable matchups he may have, that's for sure.
He'll still be used sometimes in friendlies and tournaments that don't choose to follow the MBR's recommendations (That is assuming the ban has happened), people will figure them out.
Do you honestly think people know all of Captain Falcon's matchups because they fight against him in tournaments? CF may be allowed, but he's by no means tournament viable so he shouldn't be in use if he's not going to be played in tournaments -- if you're right.