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What was the balance philosophy behind Mewtwo? Nothing makes sense.

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ChillySundance

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In a lot of ways Mewtwo in Smash is a very accurate portrayal of how he played in the games: glass cannon. He has terrible defenses and dies easily, but is extremely potent offensively (and his psychic powers give him range as well). In Smash 'defenses' correspond to weight, and 'offense' translates to damage/knockback. So it only seems logical that they made mewtwo a lightweight killing machine. Like Trifroze said, "Shadow Ball might just be the best projectile in the game", Fair has the speed of Diddy's UpAir and the killing power of a smash attack, Side B BOTH reflects projectiles AND command grabs people, which can lead to followups. His tilts are great spacing tools, all of his smashes kill early, he has not one but TWO killthrows, and the second best recovery in the game. (sorry, but :4villager:) Mewtwo fits the bill as the resident glass cannon, and fits it well.

I really wish they would have given him more true combos to complete the offensive package but honestly that may be a bit overkill.
Mewtwo actually has pretty good defenses in terms of in-game Pokemon stats, for something so fast and powerful (he's a legendary, go figure). Base hp, defense, and special defense in the 90s. For most Pokemon, 70-85 is more of an average. So yeah he's not really all that frail. There's other legendary Pokemon out there who are true glass cannons by comparison (hello Deoxys)
 
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LimitCrown

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Hardly any custom moves were affected by the balance patch, and the very powerful ones haven't been affected, it seems.
 

mobilisq

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You guys are overlooking one very important detail: at the end of the day, what ultimately matters, is that he's really ****ing fun to use
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Mewtwo is a high-risk, high-reward character in a very similar fashion to Ganondorf. Their key strengths lie in their range, and power. But they are also similar in that they have very exploitable weaknesses to counteract their massive strengths.

For Ganondorf, it is speed and recovery (though Wizard Dropkick helps in that regard). He is slow, and has pretty slow framedata as well. But when he hits you, he hits like a truck filled with dynamite. In contrast to Mewtwo, he has more power and priority.

For Mewtwo, it is his extremely light weight and somewhat slow frame-data (though not as bad as Ganondorf I think). Because of how light and big he is, he is very susceptible not only to combos but also to being KO'd very early. However, when he hits you, he hits like a truck...minus the dynamite, since Ganon has the edge there. However, in contrast to Ganondorf, he has more speed and much more recovery. One of the best in the game, I would say, and he can go for very deep when it comes to edgeguarding with his aerials. Plus, what he may lack in priority in comparison to Ganondorf (I think), he has more range than Ganon as well thanks to his tail and having a projectile.


Both of them have a command grab that, although they might not be the best moves in the games for true combos, lead into a lot of situations to try to mix the opponent up. The difference is that Ganondorf's Flame Choke leads into tech chases and keeps the opponent on the ground, and Mewtwo's Confusion forces the opponent to burn their second jump in most instances which makes them more susceptible to other things like Fair/Usmash/etc. Both moves also aid their recovery. Mewtwo's Confusion gets the bonus of being able to reflect projectiles, but loses out on chasing situations because Ganondorf's Flame Choke is more reliable and because of how some characters have multiple jumps.

Both of them have a situational move that can lead into a fast KO. Warlock Punch is incredibly slow, but has armor and a ton of knockback. Mewtwo's Disable, while fast, has very short range and only works on grounded opponents whom are facing you. Both of these are risky moves which can potentially turn into an early KO.

Wizard's Foot and Shadowball, while quite different, have somewhat similar applications. Both of them serve as long-range KO moves. While Wizard's Foot doesn't have to be charged like Shadowball does, it isn't a projectile. And Shadowball is stronger. Wizard's Foot gets the bonus of serving as a meteor in the air (or as a recovery if you use Dropkick instead), and Shadowball gets the bonus of that you can shoot it even when it is not fully charged.

Their recoveries are completely different, and serve to further benefit their own unique strengths. Ganondorf's obviously focusing on power (mostly if you are using Dark Fists though), and Mewtwo's focusing on speed and recovery.

Both characters are also vulnerable to rushdown characters such as Fox, Pikachu, Sheik, etc.


So while Mewtwo and Ganondorf are very different in their own ways, they are also very similar in that they are high-risk, high-reward characters. In summary, they are like opposites within the same archetype of character. Like they are some sort of Yin-Yang, with Ganon being the Yin and Mewtwo being the Yang. You play them differently, but their goals are the same.

All, or nothing.

You have all the capability to massively punish your opponent's mistakes with these two characters, but one mistake and you can just as easily end up in their position.


On the plus side, I feel as though Mewtwo will probably be more competitively viable than Gandondorf overall. Because in fighting games, speedy characters usually always trump slower, bulkier characters. Mewtwo also has better frame data overall in comparison to Ganondorf, on top of having more mobility both on the ground and in the air. And for Smash Bros in particular, recovery also plays an extremely important role, which Mewtwo also has the edge on. And despite how he has weaker KO potential in comparison to Ganondorf, he also has access to a KO throw and KO projectile which are things that Ganondorf lacks. Plus he has a reflector to help deal with opposing projectiles, and a teleport to help with trap situations. Plus, more reliable combos thanks to Dtilt, Utilt, and Nair in particular. And while Flame Choke is more reliable for 50/50's than Confusion, Mewtwo also has access to his jab 1 which can lead into potential KO setups such as grab -> Uthrow or a lucky Disable. Lastly, speaking of Disable, it will probably be far more reliable and useful in an actual match than Warlock Punch would be simply due to being much faster. And unlike Warlock Punch, a Mewtwo player has the ability to choose how to finish his opponent off afterwards via Shadowball/Fsmash/Dsmash/Uthrow/Usmash/etc depending on the situation and location on the stage both players are at.

Oh and having an actual Utilt also really helps too. Though Ganon's Ftilt is much better so there's that to consider as well.


While I feel as though Mewtwo should be a bit heavier, he is most certainly useful and viable competitively. Definitely not the best character in the game, but certainly not the worst character in the game either. Like many people have said, he is a glass cannon. And while he does have his flaws, he has a lot of potential in regards to invoking just as much fear into his opponents as well. :4mewtwo:


I'm just glad that he is much more viable this time around in comparison to his Melee incarnation. That, and that he is actually in this game to begin with. That is enough to make me happy.
 
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Trifroze

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What do the top tier characters in this game all have in common? Throw followups. Lack of throw followups by itself is enough to put a character in B tier. That's about where Mewtwo is going to end up. B or B-, I'd predict. He's too light. Rosalina enjoys the tier placement she does is because luma is such a good meatshield for absorbing projectiles and attacks. Mewtwo is quite large also and doesn't have luma to shield him.

In the continuing customs meta I'd expect him to fall further unless his customs miraculously get added later.
Fox, Yoshi, Wario and Villager don't have throw follow-ups though, and Japanese meta considers them A tier. I think most of us considers at least Fox and Yoshi A tier too. Throw follow-ups are neat but what's their purpose? It's making the opponent afraid to shield, inflicting damage and putting the opponent into a bigger disadvantage. Mewtwo's throws alone are good at that, and dthrow puts the opponent into a fairly bad position right in front of you in the air. Throw follow-ups have nothing to do with deciding top tiers, they're just one form of securing different things that are important in the metagame.

Rosalina has her Luma, but Mewtwo has a charge projectile and a reflector.

EDIT: Also being light doesn't make you susceptible to combos, it makes you susceptible to juggles. Many people have been saying being light gets you comboed, but it's the other way around. Juggle is when you have a chance to get out, and lightweights get comboed less because they fly further away from the opponent on every hit while still getting the same amount of hitstun as heavies.
 
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Cronoc

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Fox, Yoshi, Wario and Villager don't have throw follow-ups though, and Japanese meta considers them A tier. I think most of us considers at least Fox and Yoshi A tier too. Throw follow-ups are neat but what's their purpose? It's making the opponent afraid to shield, inflicting damage and putting the opponent into a bigger disadvantage. Mewtwo's throws alone are good at that, and dthrow puts the opponent into a fairly bad position right in front of you in the air. Throw follow-ups have nothing to do with deciding top tiers, they're just one form of securing different things that are important in the metagame.

Rosalina has her Luma, but Mewtwo has a charge projectile and a reflector.

EDIT: Also being light doesn't make you susceptible to combos, it makes you susceptible to juggles. Many people have been saying being light gets you comboed, but it's the other way around. Juggle is when you have a chance to get out, and lightweights get comboed less because they fly further away from the opponent on every hit while still getting the same amount of hitstun as heavies.
You're thinking a little too much in the mind-game space regarding throw followups - what they mean is easy, free damage. Despite the couple combo videos for Mewtwo, his only viable combo starter is dtilt. Any combo starting with a short hopped fair into a grounded enemy will almost never get pulled off against a skilled opponent. As a Bowser main I'm not all that impressed by 9-12 damage on his throws, nor am I impressed by his "kill throw" that kills sometime after 135%. By that definition Link, ROB, and a number of others have "kill" uthrows. Mewtwo's dthrow generally only follows up into something if your opponent DI's towards you or doesn't DI at all, and doesn't jump afterwards. It's not a great position, but trying to punish them from the ground with a usmash is risky due to endlag, and jumping after them leads to a 50/50 situation just like any other aerial clash.

Japanese meta is strange (if I recall they play on omega stages only) and while I've agreed with some of the Japanese tier lists I've seen, it doesn't apply to the US and EU meta, especially with customs. Those are good characters though, I don't deny that.

I assume your edit was addressing someone else as I never mentioned that. Mewtwo's lightness can get him out of things, but being a large body gives him most of the cons of lightness without the pros. For an example, Jigglypuff's lightness can can get it of jab combos quickly and respond in a way that Mewtwo won't because he's so large.
 

godogod

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THREAD HOP:

The philosophy here is that Mewtwo's initial "reward" release is just a gamma test. The more dedicated fans who have both versions will test him out, and then when his normal release comes around, he'll be a lot more balanced then.

But yeah. Mewtwo needs some Project M and Melee SD Remix attributes: heavier, quicker moves, quicker movement, but I don't believe it needs to be huge changes.
I want to believe this, but I think its wishful thinking that he will get patched in 2 weeks. The patching process takes a while. I reckon it takes a week to gather info and reactions from the fanbase, and then they have to decide what they want to buff/nerf(as well as fixing glitches), test it, and then get it approved. Two weeks is far too short of a window to gather info and release a patch IMO.
 
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DungeonMaster

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The patching process takes a while. I reckon it takes a week to gather info and reactions from the fanbase, and then they have to decide what they want to buff/nerf(as well as fixing glitches), test it, and then get it approved.
Trust me, the fanbase has nothing to do with the direction of this game. If you polled every Samus main on Earth I'm confident you would have found zero who would have said "yeah change f-tilt".

I just tested CS vs SB. CS kills mario at 102 from center of FD in training mode. SB kills at 104. The launch angles are actually quite different and it's easy to see, CS being more horizontal and SB being a 45 deg angle. In practical terms though, Mewtwo basically dies at like 80% and Samus lives to 160+ regularly. Because of the rage effect and launch angle the CS will always feel much stronger (and it really does empirically).
 

Trifroze

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Trust me, the fanbase has nothing to do with the direction of this game. If you polled every Samus main on Earth I'm confident you would have found zero who would have said "yeah change f-tilt".

I just tested CS vs SB. CS kills mario at 102 from center of FD in training mode. SB kills at 104. The launch angles are actually quite different and it's easy to see, CS being more horizontal and SB being a 45 deg angle. In practical terms though, Mewtwo basically dies at like 80% and Samus lives to 160+ regularly. Because of the rage effect and launch angle the CS will always feel much stronger (and it really does empirically).
I'm guessing you didn't DI that. Charge Shot kills noticeably later if you do, although even without DI I'm getting the opposite results (used Diddy and CF to test it). Anyway, the angle is irrelevant once DI is applied.

What comes to patching the game, they're almost certainly using glory statistics. Diddy was a special case, it was impossible not to hear about him.

EDIT: I tested with Mario from the respawn point of FD and he died at 104% with SB and 106% with CS without applying DI.
 
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Jrzfine

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I just want to point out that this is untrue. Mewtwo has good defensive stats:

Average stat for fully evolved pokemon > Mewtwo's stat:

HP:
80 > 106

Defense:
83 > 90

Special Defense:
83 > 90

Sources:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stats
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/mewtwo

While Psychic isn't the best defensive typing, it does resist fighting, and that above-average defense is paired with godlike speed and attacking stats. Mewtwo is banned from standard competitive play in Singles (OU) and Doubles (VGC) because he is a near-perfect attacker that's very difficult to KO, and that's before even considering his mega evolutions.

So yeah, if we're going by source material here, Mewtwo is not a glass cannon. Not that it's THAT important, though.
Sources:
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/hp.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/defense.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-dp/stat/sp-defense.shtml
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stats
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/mewtwo
You're comparing the average stats of regular two-stage Pokemon (who have an average base stat total of 480) to the stats of a unevolved (because legendary pokemon do not evolve their base stats are not included in those averages) legendary pokemon (with stats totaling 680). With 200 more base stats than your typical second-stage Pokemon, it's actually very telling that that he barely exceeds the average. If we go by the standards of legendary pokemon, however, we start to see the fragility of Mewtwo. In terms of HP, Mewtwo's is decent at best. Beaten by the likes of Lickylicky, Munchlax, and Whiscash, there is certainly something to be desired here, though not his worst defensive stat. Moving onto Sp. Def, Mewtwo's lackluster defenses become much more evident, where he's beaten in this category even by garbage Pokemon such as Wormadam, Drowsee, and Tentacool. Finally we have his defense stat, which is also meager, where it is beaten even by unevolved Pokemon such as Krabby, Shellder, Cubone, and Koffing. In short, Mewtwo does indeed fit the 'glass cannon' stereotype, due to investing so many of his 200 extra base stats into offense that his defenses wind up being barely average. Because of this, Mewtwo can easily be taken down (given the opportunity) in any ubers or OU match by just one or two super effective moves.
 

Uffe

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For a character with the body mass and size almost comparable to Captain Falcon's, it doesn't make sense for him to be as light as he is. He being tall is not something to be concerned about since Rosalina is taller than him and does fine. Floatiness, I think, is something we should have expected. He was that way in Melee, if I recall correctly. He's got average strength attacks, which isn't really that big of an issue. I'm talking specifically about his smashes. His tilts need to be buffed, his neutral air needs more priority, and his attacks need more range in general. That grab range is also bad. He should have a really good grab seeing how he's psychic. I'd also like to add that none of his aerials auto-cancel. That's another issue. He's a fun character to use, but he is also a bit disappointing because of his flaws. Hopefully when 1.0.7 rolls around, he'll have these fixed issues. I'm not asking for a Mewtwo that's OP, but one that is much better than his current state. We've waited many months for him only to have a mediocre character.
 

SeanS

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This topic is outright laughable. Why do people consider this character even remotely bad?

Do people not see the outrageous amount of damage per attack? Uncharged fsmash almost hits 20%, and Shadow Ball does damage in the 20s. This more than justifies his lack of followups after certain moves.

Speaking of Shadow Ball, that goes straight through the vast majority of projectiles in this game. Let's not underestimate how this helps in certain MUs, like Luigi.

Side B and Up B can deceive your opponent regarding your preferred method of recovering off reaction. This means that, in practice, he will be extremely difficult to edgeguard.

Fair is absolutely ridiculous. The ability to reactively destroy people's stocks from a less than ideal side of the screen in an instant is not to be underestimated.

Dtilt comes out near immediately, has ridiculous range, and lets you set up on people. It's a fantastic move for footsies and is the basis for very real mindgames with this character.

And most importantly, he has a great kill throw. You may think this is worse than Ness', but it's arguably even because it is scaled with the amount of damage Mewtwo does in comparison and stage location has the potential to benefit it instead of weakening it. Debating this point is silly anyway because kill throws are such a huge thing in a game where basically any mistake can get you thrown; it's *the* easiest kill method in the game.

Any weaknesses this character has are very deliberate in design and done in proportion to the real strengths listed here. Mewtwo is a glass cannon. If you want to talk terrible design philosophy, let's talk Sonic instead.
 
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Trunks159

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Rob is still placed highly in Brawl. Obviously you can predict the exact placement, but everyone stays areound where they were.

Plus this is a completely different case. This game has been out for 4 1/2 months with 52 other characters. We can more easily compare. Ugh its disturbing to see some people think yet another character is mid tier.

What is good about Mewtwo? Let me rephrase. What does he have that effectively beats our low tiers? Serious question.
 
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Damianos

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:glare:




Koing mewtwo is thefollwing 70% damage average in melee, now its 115% average to get him.

Shadow claw is more accurate, dash attack has better knockback, and also the other smash attacks have better attack and knockback as well.

Uh, no... I've been killed by plenty of smashes while getting hit around 70%.
Also, why would higher knockback be good for dash attacks? That just makes it hard to follow up.
 

LimitCrown

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How much useful was Mewtwo's dash attack for followups in Melee?
 

ZephyrZ

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Defensive stats; Mewtwo's HP, Defense, and Special Defense are pretty good. However, they're still his three worst stats. It's because his base stats are just so incredibly overpowered. It's not like they're making his weakness attack power.

Weight: It's not that Mewtwo's light, it's that he's using his telekinesis to stay afloat. He's basically in anti-gravity mode. The thing doesn't even have a "walk" for his walking animation; he flies around everywhere.
 
D

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Wanna hear a secret? No character is balanced. He's going to have his flaws, and he's going to have his strengths LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER. Work around the flaws, utilize the strengths.
 

LimitCrown

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It seems that you can use any aerial except his neutral aerial right after a low jump and those attacks will auto-cancel.
 

Psyruby

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Flavorwise, he should be a glass cannon, if you wanted to balance pokemon so Pikachu, Lucario, Charizard, Mewtwo, Greninja, and Jigglypuff were on an even footing then their stats would look like this(they will be pseudo legendaries with stats in this order HP/Att/Def/SpA/SpD/Spd):
Charizard: 88/94/88/122/96/112
Pikachu: 65/103/75/94/94/169
Jigglypuff: 256/100/44/100/56/44
Mewtwo: 94/97/79/136/79/115
Lucario: 80/126/80/131/80/103
Greninja: 81/108/76/117/80/138

So as you can tell from this list, identifying smash traits from pokemon stats is stupid. Pikachu should be the fastest, Jigglypuff should be a heavyweight, Charizard and Mewtwo should be remarkable average outside maybe their attack and speed stat. In fact the only pokemon you could argue to be semi accurate is Lucario(as he does hit like a dumptruck overall with average stats otherwise) and Greninja who is very speedy with slightly above average attack stats.

So what do they do? Accentuate the traits and interpret the pokemon based on looks. Charizard is a tough looking dragon, Pikachu is a speedy mouse, Jigglypuff is a balloon, Mewtwo is pure offense, Lucario is based off a proverb(cause **** logic, insert Sakurai), and Greninja is a ninja frog.
 

Damianos

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So as you can tell from this list, identifying smash traits from pokemon stats is stupid. Pikachu should be the fastest, Jigglypuff should be a heavyweight, Charizard and Mewtwo should be remarkable average outside maybe their attack and speed stat.
Charizard has a faster speed stat than pika, and it reflects as such in game during his dash. His recovery frames are trash though and ffs he can barely fly, while realistically he can seismic toss someone to and from the stratosphere.
Mewtwo weighs almost 100lbs heavier than charizard.. Just because he floats doesn't mean he should fly far, if anything he should have aerial control based on that fact. Not to mention he's pretty damn fast and this shows in the games and movies.
I find that pikachu happens to be the best pokemon in smash and is quite annoying to play against vs. a skilled user. Wish mewtwo was better based on the hype around him, he needs a balance patch because being the 2nd lightest character in the game makes no damn sense.
 
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Psyruby

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Warning Received
Charizard has a faster speed stat than pika, and it reflects as such in game during his dash. His recovery frames are trash though and ffs he can barely fly, while realistically he can seismic toss someone to and from the stratosphere.
Mewtwo weighs almost 100lbs heavier than charizard.. Just because he floats doesn't mean he should fly far, if anything he should have aerial control based on that fact. Not to mention he's pretty damn fast and this shows in the games and movies.
I find that pikachu happens to be the best pokemon in smash and is quite annoying to play against vs. a skilled user. Wish mewtwo was better based on the hype around him, he needs a balance patch because being the 2nd lightest character in the game makes no damn sense.
No but identifying pokemon's traits from their stats is just bunk, cause if you want to "balance" them, then Pikachu should straight up be the fastest on an even playing field. Also basing pokemon off what the pokedex said is also bad. The pokedex says Charizard is shorter than the average male, ya that's what I want in a game, Charizard to be shorter than Marth.

On another note, I would much rather have Mewtwo be uber light and have high stats in all other regards in Smash. I love this interpretation of him, and if people want to make it better, fine, but don't make it boring.
 
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1FC0

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On another note, I would much rather have Mewtwo be uber light and have high stats in all other regards in Smash. I love this interpretation of him, and if people want to make it better, fine, but don't make it boring.
Uber light hahahahahahaha I get it!
 

LimitCrown

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If Mewtwo's weight was increased, how would they balance it out? Mewtwo already has one of the best, if not the best, abilities to recover in the game. Also, an increase in his weight could make him more susceptible to combos, which would cause him to take more damage.
 

Damianos

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No but identifying pokemon's traits from their stats is just bunk, cause if you want to "balance" them, then Pikachu should straight up be the fastest on an even playing field. Also basing pokemon off what the pokedex said is also bad. The pokedex says Charizard is shorter than the average male, ya that's what I want in a game, Charizard to be shorter than Marth.
Chari is faster than pika by stats, not that it pertains to smash.
Ashes chari is also 7ft tall compared to the 5'7" in the dex, cannonically. For some reason he also appears to be smaller than an average charizard when they encountered some in the anime.
 

Ze Diglett

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What comes to patching the game, they're almost certainly using glory statistics. Diddy was a special case, it was impossible not to hear about him.
No. If they were tweaking characters based on FG stats, then Falcon, Ness, and Fox would've been nerfed to hell, and more unpopular characters like Dr. Mario, Ike, and R.O.B. most likely completely ignored.
 
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warionumbah2

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Wanna hear a secret? No character is balanced. He's going to have his flaws, and he's going to have his strengths LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER. Work around the flaws, utilize the strengths.
Work around being slightly bigger than Ike, 2nd lightest in a game full of high tiers that kill vertically, poor OOS options, fastest ground move is frame 6 and his 2nd jump doesn't help him escape combo's well since it takes long to come out.

Little Mac can't work around his poor recovery since its part of the games data, Mewtwo cannot work around his poor weight and other things.

News flash 99% of the users here knows that 'No character is balanced'.
 

godogod

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If Mewtwo's weight was increased, how would they balance it out? Mewtwo already has one of the best, if not the best, abilities to recover in the game. Also, an increase in his weight could make him more susceptible to combos, which would cause him to take more damage.
He doesn't have the best single recovery move.
It's only when you manage to do those 4 things in a row successively, its good. But you can be interrupted anytime. I don't like the idea of using shadowball to recover also.
 

-TAG-

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Mewtwo's weight is definitely the biggest problem I have with this character at the moment. Plenty of matches where I question how I got KO'd at such low percentages with a character of Mewtwo's size. Mewtwo in the Pokemon games is alot heavier than other Pokemon like Charizard and Lucario but somehow ends up lighter than Rosalina and Kirby in this game.

Confusion is a move I personally have problems with, I only ever use this move to aid Mewtwo's horizontal recovery and as a reflector. Few times I use it directly at my opponent is just part of my mindgames as I can never really guarantee an attack without trading hits with them.
 
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simpleglitch

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After playing mewtwo the last few days, I don't think weight is mewtwo's biggest problem. The weight issue is annoying and it results in mewtwo getting KO'ed pretty early, but at the same time mewtwo as plenty of his own KO options on his foes at about the same % he gets KOed at: within the 80%-140% range (the characters above this range are the heavies, but I don't think mewtwo is having to much trouble dealing with them).

The biggest issue is dealing with rush down characters, which currently could be an issue of we just don't know what to do yet (though we've identified plenty of what NOT to do) or he might just not have the tools to keep them off him.

A weight buff would keep mewtwo in the game longer, but it wouldn't necessarily help with the characters who give him trouble. IMO higher combo potential might be more beneficial.
 

Uffe

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Well, his fair autocancels.
Actually, it doesn't. If you do a short hop into forward air and then jab the moment you touch the ground, you'll see that his jab comes out slower than it does when he's just standing. A great way to see an auto-cancel from a character is using Samus' short hop into up air, and then jab the moment you hit the ground. You'll see a big difference, not only with Samus, but with Mewtwo compared to himself.
 

LimitCrown

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Actually, it doesn't. If you do a short hop into forward air and then jab the moment you touch the ground, you'll see that his jab comes out slower than it does when he's just standing. A great way to see an auto-cancel from a character is using Samus' short hop into up air, and then jab the moment you hit the ground. You'll see a big difference, not only with Samus, but with Mewtwo compared to himself.
Isn't there a very minuscule amount of lag from landing onto the ground?
 
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Uffe

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Isn't there a very minuscule amount of lag from landing onto the ground?
Possibly. I was comparing all his short hop, fast fall aerials to his regular short hop, fast fall without aerials. I feel the latter is quicker. Maybe not by much, but I think enough to see the difference. I wish I had a recording device to compare the two side by side.
 

Timbers

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After playing mewtwo the last few days, I don't think weight is mewtwo's biggest problem. The weight issue is annoying and it results in mewtwo getting KO'ed pretty early, but at the same time mewtwo as plenty of his own KO options on his foes at about the same % he gets KOed at: within the 80%-140% range (the characters above this range are the heavies, but I don't think mewtwo is having to much trouble dealing with them).

The biggest issue is dealing with rush down characters, which currently could be an issue of we just don't know what to do yet (though we've identified plenty of what NOT to do) or he might just not have the tools to keep them off him.

A weight buff would keep mewtwo in the game longer, but it wouldn't necessarily help with the characters who give him trouble. IMO higher combo potential might be more beneficial.
This is all true. However, I think the most beneficial change they could give him would be quicker/safer options to contest his aggressors more reliably. I'm speaking mostly of ftilt and bair. Right now he's full of holes for people to get in on. Buffing his combo potential doesn't fix this problem.
 

Damianos

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After playing him religiously since release, and encountering hundreds of em online...
His meta is literally shadow ball spam for damage and hoping people jump over em so you can get a relatively free grab on those who air dodge and get landing lag, or to do his SH Fair (which doesn't land much due to how much you're forced to telegraph everything).
Also upsmash on unsuspecting enemies coming down from a jump tends to catch people more often than not, but also leaves you insanely open.
His Bair is insanely obvious, almost always gets dodged, unless they don't have that option being thrown far enough off stage that they're forced to focus on their recovery or die for lack there of .
His Uair, same thing^ but worse because M2 jumps so slow and doesn't cover enough distance to get any sort of true combo from it approaching from ground.
His Dair, ffs where are the hitboxes on this thing to begin with?
His Fair, entirely reliable as a kill move due to its speed and unpredictability. SH Fair = viable in a variety of freestyle applications.

Fsmash, Dsmash, both come out slow and don't kill as early as it should, considering how hard it is to land. I almost never use these unless I catch a confusion and the enemy isn't already spamming jump for some reason.
Usmash, basically the meta kill move here, barely ever works while grounded due to, again, ridiculous hitboxes. Hits really damn hard and kills earlier than the rest of his moves AFAIK. Set up unsuspecting enemies coming down from a jump with this. Feigning SH aerials to bait an air dodge is a prime way to land this. Blows that he's so tall, rarely touches shorter grounded characters until late into the animation for about a frame or two worth of grounded hitboxes.

Utilt, pretty fast release, one of his more reliable moves. Combos just like foxes Utilt if the enemy doesn't spam jump and DI away.
Ftilt, just a slower and less reliable Dtilt IMO. Works certainly but don't expect mileage.
Dtilt, ugh 4% damage but one of his most useful tools for spacing and mind games. Easy to land against enemies who can't stop rolling because of its range and speed. Not exactly sure about any good follow ups after landing this but the fact that its easy to land makes it easy to rack up damage over time if you're smart about it. Makes opponents thing twice about rolling towards you because if they don't roll past you, that's basically a guaranteed hit.

Confusion, borderline useless due to the spastic attempts at escape everyone is doing in this sm4sh meta. Can easily be DI'd out of, jumped out of, and literally aerial'd out of depending on the enemy and their aerial range. Have not found a reliable set up for this yet, but SH Fairs do tend to work against spastic escapees. Obv, if they don't try to escape, it's a free smash attack.
Disable, hardest thing to land, excellent troll move at high percents, I often tea bag and then Usmash because ffs I worked for it. Otherwise useless IMO.
Teleport, excellent escape tool, I've escaped lil mac's jab combo with this. Also helps with ledge guarding trolls if you tele above the ledge, onto the stage. Works great overall.

And finally, his grab range is complete ass. He should be able to grab farther than greninja, but has the range of WFT, like really? Grabbing is most of his SAFE damage output if you aren't spamming shadow balls for set ups. His up throw kills around 150% for almost every character. Heavies take a bit more. As said before, feigning aerials to bait aerial dodges/landing lag are a great way to get safe grabs. Works for Usmash as well.

All in all, mid tier spam meta at best. No tech chase game, no footsies (good lord), but his aerials do make him damn formidable in the air. Usually forces air dodges which lead to easy grabs if you can fast fall, AC, then grab.

I don't claim to be an expert, this is just my experienced opinion based on a lot of time spent with him. PLEASE comment back with discovered follow ups for any of these, or even to tell me I'm wrong. Thanks!
 
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