What was the balance philosophy behind Mewtwo? Nothing makes sense.

[Seith]

Up-Smash doesn't kill anyone at 82% with correct DI, that's the % it basically starts to kill Jiggz with no DI (around 85-90%). Also Side-B does not true combo into anything on any character.

In training mode it is a true combo, the combo counter does not drop.
Also Side B does enough damage to bump people into kill range for Usmash most of the time

 

[LimitCrown]

In training mode it is a true combo, the combo counter does not drop.
Also Side B does enough damage to bump people into kill range for Usmash most of the time

The combo counter in training mode is inaccurate sometimes. For example, if you freeze an opponent with a attack, they escape, and you hit them within a second afterwards, then the combo counter will indicate that it is a combo even though the hitstun sustained by the opponent already ended.

 

[Seith]

The combo counter in training mode is inaccurate sometimes. For example, if you freeze an opponent with a attack, they escape, and you hit them within a second afterwards, then the combo counter will indicate that it is a combo even though the hitstun sustained by the opponent already ended.

Ah.
Also, after posted earlier that it wasn't a true combo, I went to the lab with my brother.
The only way to escape it from killing you are the following options:
Counter
DI Away (left or right depending on where Mewtwo is facing)

So all in all its still a prtty solid option, if people try to jump out of it they still dont ascend high enough to avoid being hit by it. Airdoodging is also ineffective as you hit the ground and then still get hit by it.

 

[Chiroz]

Ah.
Also, after posted earlier that it wasn't a true combo, I went to the lab with my brother.
The only way to escape it from killing you are the following options:
Counter
DI Away (left or right depending on where Mewtwo is facing)

So all in all its still a prtty solid option, if people try to jump out of it they still dont ascend high enough to avoid being hit by it. Airdoodging is also ineffective as you hit the ground and then still get hit by it.

You can also just DI into Mewtwo and attack Mewtwo if your character has any semi-quick aerial. Also jumping works as long as you aren't DIng downwards or something like that.

U-Smash kills around late 90s to early 100s with no DI on most characters. At 82% it doesn't kill anyone, not even Jiggz.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The best way to take advantage of confusion is to mix it up. At first, you'll want to shield, in case they mash out an attack. Then you can punish with an out-of-shield option, like one of your aerials or something. Stuff like U-Smash or U-tilt are for when you think your opponent thinks he has figured confusion habits out.

 

[Chiroz]

The best way to take advantage of confusion is to mix it up. At first, you'll want to shield, in case they mash out an attack. Then you can punish with an out-of-shield option, like one of your aerials or something. Stuff like U-Smash or U-tilt are for when you think your opponent thinks he has figured confusion habits out.

U-Tilt is the safest thing to do apart from shielding or running away, if you know your opponent's habits out of confusion you should probably go for something more rewarding (like U-Smash, like you said).

I would say U-Smash or F-Smash are the most rewarding options but they are easily punished. Anything else like Dash Attack, Aerials, etc are in the middle.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo has power behind him to kill characters early but he can die even earlier if you make just one mistake.

Yeah, this is how I see it. IMO a true test of a player's skill is to win with NOT the best characters.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, this is how I see it. IMO a true test of a player's skill is to win with NOT the best characters.

I'll still play Mewtwo but personally no other character gives me the fun and joy of playing as Bowser.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

Mewtwo makes no sense at all, and that's why I love playing him. I love really weird and unorthodox characters in general. Almost all my mains are somewhat unusual.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll still play Mewtwo but personally no other character gives me the fun and joy of playing as Bowser.

Everyone should definitely play the characters they enjoy using! I wonder if some sort of personality test can be derived from examining which characters a player uses in Smash....

 

[MagiusNecros]

Everyone should definitely play the characters they enjoy using! I wonder if some sort of personality test can be derived from examining which characters a player uses in Smash....

The ability to take a hit is probably a reason. And having reliable attacks.

 

[L9999]

Mewtwo makes no sense at all, and that's why I love playing him. I love really weird and unorthodox characters in general. Almost all my mains are somewhat unusual.

Same, all of my mains are floaty/light/awkward to play. () Mewtwo's character is enough to hide the fact he is a joke character (light/floaty/big/slow). Yet, a complete joke character in the caliber of Pichu is better than all of the low tiers...

 

[ZephyrZ]

Same, all of my mains are floaty/light/awkward to play. () Mewtwo's character is enough to hide the fact he is a joke character (light/floaty/big/slow). Yet, a complete joke character in the caliber of Pichu is better than all of the low tiers...

Tell me, what defines a joke character? Having weaknesses and being a joke aren't the same thing, especially when you have amazing strengths as well.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The real joke is when you realize Mewtwo's only reliable moves are dtilt, upsmash and shadow ball.

Anything else has wonky hit boxes. Or slow startup and end lag that gives free punishes.

And teleport decides when it wants to bounce off the stage.

This character was rushed. As if the lack of custom moves didn't make this already apparent.

I want to like Mewtwo but it's hard to want to try since it is more a novelty character.

I shouldn't be whiffing grabs and jabs at point blank range.

Grump grump

 

[ZephyrZ]

The real joke is when you realize Mewtwo's only reliable moves are dtilt, upsmash and shadow ball.

Anything else has wonky hit boxes. Or slow startup and end lag that gives free punishes.

Hit boxes are things you get used to with practice. Bair, for instance, may seem odd at first, but it's an amazing move once you figure out how it hits.

Fiar is short ranged, but also incredibly fast, can kill, and combos into itself. U-tilt is pretty reliable way of hitting aerial opponents. And his slow moves - F-Smash, U-Smash, Disable, Confusion - all have great strengths to make up for their lack of speed. Really, I'd think a Bowser main would be the last person to be complaining about slow attacks.

And teleport decides when it wants to bounce off the stage.

There are certain physics behind the way Teleport works, they're just difficult to get used to.

 

[meleebrawler]

Hit boxes are things you get used to with practice. Bair, for instance, may seem odd at first, but it's an amazing move once you figure out how it hits.

Fiar is short ranged, but also incredibly fast, can kill, and combos into itself. U-tilt is pretty reliable way of hitting aerial opponents. And his slow moves - F-Smash, U-Smash, Disable, Confusion - all have great strengths to make up for their lack of speed. Really, I'd think a Bowser main would be the last person to be complaining about slow attacks.
There are certain physics behind the way Teleport works, they're just difficult to get used to.

A Bowser main is used to getting punished a lot through slow attacks because he can generally easily afford them.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Surprisingly I get punished far less as Bowser then Mewtwo.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Surprisingly I get punished far less as Bowser then Mewtwo.

I'll bet you've also practiced Bowser more.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'll bet you've also practiced Bowser more.

Every move he has will hit reliably and doesn't take forever to come out.

Mewtwo seems to rely on trickery and hard reads. His playstyle is not that satisfying especially since he has an average lifespan of a goomba.

 

[meleebrawler]

Every move he has doesn't take forever to come out.

*ahem* Fsmash *cough* Bowser Bomb...

Bowsers moves are easier to hit because they just plain have big hitboxes, befitting the largest character frame in the game.

He may have an edge on Mewtwo in terms of startup, but his endlag is solidly worse. You can count the moves he has
that are safe on block on one hand.

 

[MagiusNecros]

*ahem* Fsmash *cough* Bowser Bomb...

Bowsers moves are easier to hit because they just plain have big hitboxes, befitting the largest character frame in the game.

He may have an edge on Mewtwo in terms of startup, but his endlag is solidly worse. You can count the moves he has
that are safe on block on one hand.

You never use Fsmash unless it's a hard punish and Bowser Bomb can land easily off a Jab 1. And useful for Ledge Trumps so...

Most of the attacks Bowser will be using is Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, and grab game. Among others such as the mighty Whirling Fortress.

Bowser makes opponents scared by existing and can get in when he needs to.

Mewtwo however requires more strategy to get your damage in and requires to play around every matchup and hope the opponent makes a mistake and get a combo going.

 

[Spatman]

mewtwo's moves don't seem to me too slow to come out

 

[MagiusNecros]

They feel slow and bulky despite Mewtwo's light weight. Half the time a Bair misses it's mark and Uair often misses when used with the 2nd jump. I don't understand it.

 

[meleebrawler]

They feel slow and bulky despite Mewtwo's light weight. Half the time a Bair misses it's mark and Uair often misses when used with the 2nd jump. I don't understand it.

Bair is just plain slow, there's no getting around that. But it serves as a nice contrast to the instant but small hitbox shadow claw.

Are you sure it's not just the "acceleration" of his second jump that's screwing with your timing? Uair has a small vertical range but terrific horizontal, you'll get more hits with it if you take advantage of that. But to be honest the only aerial that should
be used at the start of the second jump is spark.

People complain that uair's hitboxes are wonky, and while they kind of are (that wide range), I find it matches the animation.
I feel like people just look at Mewtwo's tail and assume uair should have a long range as a result.

A lot of Mewtwo's attacks do require some foresight to truly be used effectively... but isn't that kind of fitting for a Psychic
type who specializes in Special Attack in a way?

 

[L9999]

Bair is just plain slow, there's no getting around that. But it serves as a nice contrast to the instant but small hitbox shadow claw.

Are you sure it's not just the "acceleration" of his second jump that's screwing with your timing? Uair has a small vertical range but terrific horizontal, you'll get more hits with it if you take advantage of that. But to be honest the only aerial that should
be used at the start of the second jump is spark.

People complain that uair's hitboxes are wonky, and while they kind of are (that wide range), I find it matches the animation.
I feel like people just look at Mewtwo's tail and assume uair should have a long range as a result.

A lot of Mewtwo's attacks do require some foresight to truly be used effectively... but isn't that kind of fitting for a Psychic
type who specializes in Special Attack in a way?

Not an excuse for having slow attacks while being made of paper mache.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Not an excuse for having slow attacks while being made of paper mache.

If you are light you have to be fast.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not an excuse for having slow attacks while being made of paper mache.

Let's go over all of his "slow" attacks, hm?

Ftilt: The speed difference between this and dtilt is as clear as night and day, but it has more active frames, damage and knockback and it can actually trip at low percents and kill at stubbornly high percents. How about that? It's endlag is also
low enough that it doesn't usually get punished on whiff when spaced right.

Fsmash: A powerhouse move, plain and simple. Though it should be noted that Mewtwo leans back during the startup which
can result in opponents misspacing, like Mario's or Falcon's.

Dsmash: This is his slowest move in startup, but it makes up for it with near nonexistent endlag. If your opponent doesn't
have a swift projectile you can charge this move with impunity when at a relatively safe distance. A great baiting move against
inexperienced opponents like Ganon's Usmash and a surprisingly safe hard read tool against almost anyone.

Bair: It's slow. Too slow to be used consistently against ground opponents or as an aggressive tool, but it's hit area and duration
make it a good complement to the swift shadow claw.

Uair: I used to hate this move. It seemed by all accounts to be a juggling and combo tool but it's startup greatly hindered
it's use in that regard. Then I noticed it's huge horizontal range letting it poke airborne enemies from awkward angles.

Shadow Ball: Extremely powerful when charged, enough to plow through many lesser projectiles would be enough, but once
again the move has deceptively low endlag so it can be used to harass opponents with a small barrage when the situation calls
for it.

Confusion: A command grab with decent range and not too much endlag that also doubles as a reflector. A shame it doesn't reflect projectiles sooner, but at least the reflect duration is nice and meaty.

So when you take a good look at Mewtwo's options, you realize that if the opponent doesn't have the speed to counter-hit (ie interrupt) Mewtwo's moves, he's surprisingly difficult to punish. The only moves that have significant endlag, landing lag aside, are usmash, shadow claw (both of which are swift on startup instead) and fsmash. He's a lightweight bruiser like Zelda, but unlike her he retains enough mobility and attack speed and safety to be relevant in neutral (on top of functional projectiles).

If you are light you have to be fast.

Let's face it, fast characters almost always dominate tier lists in fighters unless other archetypes utterly overpower them somehow.
You could make almost any character tourney viable if they're fast in any measure.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Doesn't excuse the fact Mewtwo has slightly more stamina then Jigglypuff. The weight class just kills him more then it should.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Bair: It's slow. Too slow to be used consistently against ground opponents or as an aggressive tool, but it's hit area and duration make it a good complement to the swift shadow claw.

Let's not forget how awesome this move is at edge guards.

 

[meleebrawler]

Doesn't excuse the fact Mewtwo has slightly more stamina then Jigglypuff. The weight class just kills him more then it should.

Yes, yes, just keeeep falling back onto that argument.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yes, yes, just keeeep falling back onto that argument.

And yet there is little you can say to justify his weight class. If Mewtwo was as heavy as Samus I might be a bit more forgiving.

 

[Deleted member]

And yet there is little you can say to justify his weight class. If Mewtwo was as heavy as Samus I might be a bit more forgiving.

Mewtwo shouldn't be easy to win with. Was he easy to catch? WAS he???

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo shouldn't be easy to win with. Was he easy to catch? WAS he???

*throws a masterball*

Well now.

 

[meleebrawler]

And yet there is little you can say to justify his weight class. If Mewtwo was as heavy as Samus I might be a bit more forgiving.

Samus's recovery pales in comparison to Mewtwo, he'd be way too hard to KO for the average character, because
as I've said before if you don't have the speed to interrupt his startups he's difficult to punish.

He's a lightweight with several powerful but not-so quick moves because it makes him unique. Don't you feel as
if there are enough light speedster characters as it is? Or big, heavy power characters? There's a reason many people
like playing as him even if they don't think he's good at winning tournaments or even a good character in general.

Mewtwo shouldn't be easy to win with. Was he easy to catch? WAS he???

His reputation of power comes not from the difficulty of his capture (all optional legendaries are hard to catch, he just happened
to be the highest levelled Pokemon in the game and had a moveset geared to making captures frustrating), but for making the game piss-easy once it was, both against NPC trainers and real ones alike.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Samus's recovery pales in comparison to Mewtwo, he'd be way too hard to KO for the average character, because
as I've said before if you don't have the speed to interrupt his startups he's difficult to punish.

He's a lightweight with several powerful but not-so quick moves because it makes him unique. Don't you feel as
if there are enough light speedster characters as it is? Or big, heavy power characters? There's a reason many people
like playing as him even if they don't think he's good at winning tournaments or even a good character in general.

So basically a up and front novelty character. Gotcha.

Their aren't that many heavy hitting characters to begin with so I dunno what you are getting at. If you are slow you have to be strong both offensively and defensively. For a thing nearly 300 pounds he takes a hit about as well as a 12 pound puffball.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

He really is quite odd in that he's objectively bad yet strangely fun. Kind of like Ness in Melee/Brawl.

 

[meleebrawler]

He really is quite odd in that he's objectively bad yet strangely fun. Kind of like Ness in Melee/Brawl.

Fairly sure Ness was legitimately good in Brawl, but his grab release animation was abused mercilessly.

 

[Ze Diglett]

But he's not fun, though; he's just frustrating to use, even to someone who solo-mained him in Melee. Most of his attacks (and his grab) have piss-poor range, so you won't be able to actually land a hit without putting yourself at insane risk and/or trading hits most of the time, which just doesn't work with how nonsensically early Mewtwo dies to any character. If he has to be so light, at least give him some safe attacks beyond Shadow Ball and his tilts. Certainly doesn't help that he barely has any OOS options against most characters due to his traction.
I want to like Mewtwo, I really do, but there's really not much that redeems this mess of qualities for me other than... well, Mewtwo.

 

[MagiusNecros]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[meleebrawler]

But he's not fun, though; he's just frustrating to use, even to someone who solo-mained him in Melee. Most of his attacks (and his grab) have piss-poor range, so you won't be able to actually land a hit without putting yourself at insane risk and/or trading hits most of the time, which just doesn't work with how nonsensically early Mewtwo dies to any character. If he has to be so light, at least give him some safe attacks beyond Shadow Ball and his tilts. Certainly doesn't help that he barely has any OOS options against most characters due to his traction.
I want to like Mewtwo, I really do, but there's really not much that redeems this mess of qualities for me other than... well, Mewtwo.

I have no idea where this "lack of range" comes from. The only two moves he has that really lack range are his grab
(because Confusion exists) and nair. Now if you're referring to how many of his moves cause more damage up close,
you really don't have to apply those hits if you really don't want to. His OOS game is certainly sub-par, but he still has options
in nair, dtilt and jab if a grab isn't applicable. And dash attack is amazing at getting landing and punishes.

If his range is so bad, why is it that his hardest matchups are against characters who can close in quickly instead of spacing masters? (Oh, and disable reaches further than all of his ground moves, letting him stop most dash-ins cold).