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What was the balance philosophy behind Mewtwo? Nothing makes sense.

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Mewtwo actually does have a pretty good mindgame if you know how to pull it off; it's just that it's not easy to pull it off.

Plus he has one of the best recoveries in the game, even if he does die early. Confusion propels him forwards in the air; add that to his double jump and Teleport and he's got an insane recovery. He's light as a feather and gets sent flying easily, but he's still difficult to KO by virtue of said amazing recovery.

Shadow Ball allows you to play mindgames if you fully charge it, especially against other projectile users since it can block weaker projectiles (like Link's arrows). Disable is hard to land, but opens the opponent to a grab, which can be followed up by an aerial. He's basically an inverse Little Mac, actually; strong in the air, meh on the ground (laggy attacks and whatnot) and has an incredible recovery.
 
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Spatman

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but in this game almost every character has enough strong recoveries, a part of little mac, dr mario and maybe DK... it doesn't seem to me really a super advantage
 

Damianos

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no tech chase game? shadow ball would beg to differ, friend.
Explain to me how a stationary charged projectile = tech chase game...
His rolls are exceptionally laggy at the end and his speed isn't that great.


And we don't need the same conversation going to two different topics...
Where would be a good place to place my giant comment that I recently took the time to write out here? I don't think it'll get much exposure being buried and I'm not quite sure where the mewtwo meta posts are since search isn't quite doing it for me.
 
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LancerStaff

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Explain to me how a stationary charged projectile = tech chase game...
His rolls are exceptionally laggy at the end and his speed isn't that great.




Where would be a good place to place my giant comment that I recently took the time to write out here? I don't think it'll get much exposure being buried and I'm not quite sure where the mewtwo meta posts are since search isn't quite doing it for me.
Namely talking to him specifically. Pretty sure like half of these topics could be merged into the complaint topic though.
 

Damianos

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And we don't need the same conversation going to two different topics...
Namely talking to him specifically. Pretty sure like half of these topics could be merged into the complaint topic though.
Yeah this thread could be but my comment was something about the meta in some sort of depth. Is it ok to copy and paste it somewhere else?
 

Smog Frog

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Explain to me how a stationary charged projectile = tech chase game...
His rolls are exceptionally laggy at the end and his speed isn't that great.




Where would be a good place to place my giant comment that I recently took the time to write out here? I don't think it'll get much exposure being buried and I'm not quite sure where the mewtwo meta posts are since search isn't quite doing it for me.
if we're talking punishing tech options, then shadow ball covers every option(get up attack, both rolls, getup)
 

Teh Sandwich

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After playing him religiously since release, and encountering hundreds of em online...
His meta is literally shadow ball spam for damage and hoping people jump over em so you can get a relatively free grab on those who air dodge and get landing lag, or to do his SH Fair (which doesn't land much due to how much you're forced to telegraph everything).
Also upsmash on unsuspecting enemies coming down from a jump tends to catch people more often than not, but also leaves you insanely open.
His Bair is insanely obvious, almost always gets dodged, unless they don't have that option being thrown far enough off stage that they're forced to focus on their recovery or die for lack there of .
His Uair, same thing^ but worse because M2 jumps so slow and doesn't cover enough distance to get any sort of true combo from it approaching from ground.
His Dair, ffs where are the hitboxes on this thing to begin with?
His Fair, entirely reliable as a kill move due to its speed and unpredictability. SH Fair = viable in a variety of freestyle applications.

Fsmash, Dsmash, both come out slow and don't kill as early as it should, considering how hard it is to land. I almost never use these unless I catch a confusion and the enemy isn't already spamming jump for some reason.
Usmash, basically the meta kill move here, barely ever works while grounded due to, again, ridiculous hitboxes. Hits really damn hard and kills earlier than the rest of his moves AFAIK. Set up unsuspecting enemies coming down from a jump with this. Feigning SH aerials to bait an air dodge is a prime way to land this. Blows that he's so tall, rarely touches shorter grounded characters until late into the animation for about a frame or two worth of grounded hitboxes.

Utilt, pretty fast release, one of his more reliable moves. Combos just like foxes Utilt if the enemy doesn't spam jump and DI away.
Ftilt, just a slower and less reliable Dtilt IMO. Works certainly but don't expect mileage.
Dtilt, ugh 4% damage but one of his most useful tools for spacing and mind games. Easy to land against enemies who can't stop rolling because of its range and speed. Not exactly sure about any good follow ups after landing this but the fact that its easy to land makes it easy to rack up damage over time if you're smart about it. Makes opponents thing twice about rolling towards you because if they don't roll past you, that's basically a guaranteed hit.

Confusion, borderline useless due to the spastic attempts at escape everyone is doing in this sm4sh meta. Can easily be DI'd out of, jumped out of, and literally aerial'd out of depending on the enemy and their aerial range. Have not found a reliable set up for this yet, but SH Fairs do tend to work against spastic escapees. Obv, if they don't try to escape, it's a free smash attack.
Disable, hardest thing to land, excellent troll move at high percents, I often tea bag and then Usmash because ffs I worked for it. Otherwise useless IMO.
Teleport, excellent escape tool, I've escaped lil mac's jab combo with this. Also helps with ledge guarding trolls if you tele above the ledge, onto the stage. Works great overall.

And finally, his grab range is complete ***. He should be able to grab farther than greninja, but has the range of WFT, like really? Grabbing is most of his SAFE damage output if you aren't spamming shadow balls for set ups. His up throw kills around 150% for almost every character. Heavies take a bit more. As said before, feigning aerials to bait aerial dodges/landing lag are a great way to get safe grabs. Works for Usmash as well.

All in all, mid tier spam meta at best. No tech chase game, no footsies (good lord), but his aerials do make him damn formidable in the air. Usually forces air dodges which lead to easy grabs if you can fast fall, AC, then grab.

I don't claim to be an expert, this is just my experienced opinion based on a lot of time spent with him. PLEASE comment back with discovered follow ups for any of these, or even to tell me I'm wrong. Thanks!
Sounds like mewtwo just doesn't mesh with your play style. Sorry but I've been doing very well with him vs people who have always been very close to my skill level (In person play).
Stoked to try him in my states monthly next weekend, hopefully my mewtwo game is primed up enough.
 

Damianos

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Sounds like mewtwo just doesn't mesh with your play style. Sorry but I've been doing very well with him vs people who have always been very close to my skill level (In person play).
Stoked to try him in my states monthly next weekend, hopefully my mewtwo game is primed up enough.
I never said I wasn't doing well with him.... I'm actually better than pretty much every mewtwo I've encountered so far..
Surely I'm not a sit, spam, and wait for openings type of player, but that doesn't mean anything really, I'm simply stating pretty obvious facts in a condensed list.

if we're talking punishing tech options, then shadow ball covers every option(get up attack, both rolls, getup)
We're talking tech chase, not tech punishes. His shadow ball forces pressure, that's a given. Especially with 25% damage to boot.
 

Hukuzo

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I think they made Mewtwo the worst character because of Sakurai's vendetta against the popular characters and series.
 

Snipnigth

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He hits really hard, does a lot of % damage, combis very well, has an amazing recovery and an amazing range and spacing game, i think he has the tool to work around those weaknesess, i mean he has a good spacing game and he been so floaty can get out of some combos easier than fastfallers like fox.
 
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I absolutely love Mewtwo in Sm4sh (I know I'm narcissistic).

Despite his weaknesses, he's a great character when used properly. Since many have pointed out that he dies early, it's critical to evade attacks and strike from afar or come in unsuspecting with an attack like Shadow Claw. He's got great KO options, can pester with uncharged Shadow Balls, and has a fantastic recovery. Like Zelda, he may be better suited to 4-player matches but that doesn't mean you also can't beat someone 1v1. He's all about outwitting opponents and punishing hard. And I love that.
 

Fatmanonice

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I'd argue that he's even more of glass cannon than Jigglypuff. Light but big and easy to juggle but hits like a truck, has stupid range, decent set ups, and a fantastic recovery. I doubt he'll never be high tier based on his weaknesses but he's definitely a lot more functional than he was in Melee.
 

Seith

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I beat someone in Revelations this past weekend in a tournament match with Mewtwo who was playing Mario. He's definitely more viable in Sm4sh environments than in Melee environments.
Also, in my opinion his weight isn't nearly as light as it was in Melee, more akin to his Project M weight than anything. He's a solid option and just right imo.
 

godogod

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I beat someone in Revelations this past weekend in a tournament match with Mewtwo who was playing Mario. He's definitely more viable in Sm4sh environments than in Melee environments.
Also, in my opinion his weight isn't nearly as light as it was in Melee, more akin to his Project M weight than anything. He's a solid option and just right imo.
He's significantly lighter than he was in melee. We already have stats confirmed. He's the second lightest. 72 from 85 in melee IIRC.
 

Seith

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He's significantly lighter than he was in melee. We already have stats confirmed. He's the second lightest. 72 from 85 in melee IIRC.
Huh. I wasn't aware of this, oops XD
However I still think his weight is better suited for a Sm4sh environment than Melees.
 
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I disagree. His weight value gets him killed more then he should.
So we can all agree on this. It means your strategy with Mewtwo is to be very defensive and evade and shield like a master if you want to win.
 

ZephyrZ

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At which point you can do that with any character.
Mewtwo has some advantagous, however. He's got a good projectile in Shadow Ball, good range on his tilts, a reflector, evasive air dodges and a fast air speed, and great platform play. He's also got very powerful punishes.

The only real problem is his roll, which can be worked around.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Mewtwo has some advantagous, however. He's got a good projectile in Shadow Ball, good range on his tilts, a reflector, evasive air dodges and a fast air speed, and great platform play. He's also got very powerful punishes.

The only real problem is his roll, which can be worked around.
You forget weird hitboxes that aren't always accurate. I would play him more if I could consistently runoff Nair but for some reason the game doesn't want me to.
 
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You forget weird hitboxes that aren't always accurate. I would play him more if I could consistently runoff Nair but for some reason the game doesn't want me to.
But this is great news to me. I'm glad not every Smasher will be running to main Mewtwo like they (initially) did with Little Mac or whoever. In the Melee days, I enjoyed playing and getting good with characters that fewer people played because of their perceived 'inferiority', such as Zelda and Mewtwo.
So likewise, I'm glad that Mewtwo in Sm4sh is good, but not obviously good, so that I can play a character that not every other person is also good at (Palutena fits in this boat too). So to anyone who feels Mewtwo isn't good enough...there are 50 other characters to play as.
 

meleebrawler

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But this is great news to me. I'm glad not every Smasher will be running to main Mewtwo like they (initially) did with Little Mac or whoever. In the Melee days, I enjoyed playing and getting good with characters that fewer people played because of their perceived 'inferiority', such as Zelda and Mewtwo.
So likewise, I'm glad that Mewtwo in Sm4sh is good, but not obviously good, so that I can play a character that not every other person is also good at (Palutena fits in this boat too). So to anyone who feels Mewtwo isn't good enough...there are 50 other characters to play as.
Do you see similarities in the playstyles of Mewtwo and Palutena?
 
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Do you see similarities in the playstyles of Mewtwo and Palutena?
Of course. They're definitely more similar than say, Mewtwo and Captain Falcon. Like Mewtwo, I feel like Palutena is one of those characters that has great defensive options but is also able to punish nicely with some well-placed moves. But also like Mewtwo, when she whiffs, then she can get punished easily as well.
 
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Mewtwo was meant to be an offensive character: Kill them before they kill you.

I just got done playing a top-level defensive Mewtwo with my offensive Mewtwo. 3-Stocked them every match.

Stop judging a character based on their weaknesses.

Also, check my thread about the Command Sequence and the MS-Sequence (found by me)
 

MagiusNecros

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Mewtwo would kill more if he was heavier. You can try psychic powers all you want, sure it makes him float like a balloon but it wouldn't affect his bodies legitimate weight against receiving an impact. Or if you want to get creative we can say he could psychic energy to mitigate the impact of any blow against his body.

Mewtwo has power behind him to kill characters early but he can die even earlier if you make just one mistake.
 

Seith

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Mewtwo would kill more if he was heavier. You can try psychic powers all you want, sure it makes him float like a balloon but it wouldn't affect his bodies legitimate weight against receiving an impact. Or if you want to get creative we can say he could psychic energy to mitigate the impact of any blow against his body.

Mewtwo has power behind him to kill characters early but he can die even earlier if you make just one mistake.
That arguement would work for basically any character though. Weight has nothing to do with kill power, Mewtwo can get kills as early as 82% on most characters if comboed into Usmash, and side-b > usmash is a true combo on any characters
 

Chiroz

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That arguement would work for basically any character though. Weight has nothing to do with kill power, Mewtwo can get kills as early as 82% on most characters if comboed into Usmash, and side-b > usmash is a true combo on any characters
Up-Smash doesn't kill anyone at 82% with correct DI, that's the % it basically starts to kill Jiggz with no DI (around 85-90%). Also Side-B does not true combo into anything on any character.
 
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MagiusNecros

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That arguement would work for basically any character though. Weight has nothing to do with kill power, Mewtwo can get kills as early as 82% on most characters if comboed into Usmash, and side-b > usmash is a true combo on any characters
Weight determines knock back received which determines kill power. Ever so slightly.
 

godogod

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That arguement would work for basically any character though. Weight has nothing to do with kill power, Mewtwo can get kills as early as 82% on most characters if comboed into Usmash, and side-b > usmash is a true combo on any characters
I can never combo side b with any other attack particularly a smash attack.. Not enough time.
 
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Try doing Side-B -> U-tilt, it's not a true combo, but the move is fast enough to hit before most people can react.
 
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