What was the balance philosophy behind Mewtwo? Nothing makes sense.

[Deleted member]

I just think that Sakurai probably would have made more of a mistake by making Mewtwo, especially as DLC this time, OP. Like has been said, he's a fun character to use but also not necessarily easy to win with. This makes it so that only those who really practice can get good with him. Did we really want online to remain forever flooded with Mewtwos because he was OP? And what would that say about you if you mained him just because you knew he was OP?
Finally, since Smash 4 has already been updated with balance patches, I wouldn't be surprised if down the line Mewtwo was buffed a little to balance things out, so we probably shouldn't have too many cows about this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Like... it's fine if you don't like the way Mewtwo turned out, but don't spend too much time griping about what could
have been or what you feel should have been done. The only Smash game that truly cares about making every character
perfectly viable in 1V1 tournament settings is Project M.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think we should agree with Melee brawler and start maining Ness and Sheik.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I think we should agree with Melee brawler and start maining Ness and Sheik.

I still think Mewtwo is in a better place than he was in Melee. He's not going to be a regular tournament pick, but he isn't the worst. Still can't believe that Ness was buffed to the extent that he was though. Now I get to say that I mained him back when he was trash tier.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I still think Mewtwo is in a better place than he was in Melee. He's not going to be a regular tournament pick, but he isn't the worst. Still can't believe that Ness was buffed to the extent that he was though. Now I get to say that I mained him back when he was trash tier.

Mewtwo is better in some areas and worse in others.

 

[LimitCrown]

I get the impression that the complaints regarding Mewtwo are mainly about him not being one of the best characters in the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo is better in some areas and worse in others.

Everybody has a worse combo and air-to-ground game without L-canceling or double-jump canceling.

I get the feeling they were trying to go for the lightweight powerhouse angle in Melee too, but unfortunately his
throws were the only powerful thing on him. Now his smashes got big power buffs while their frame data barely got touched,
in fact he's just plain more powerful across the board except for nair. His body, while still a big target, is less awkwardly
shaped and so his shield works properly now. The adjustments to shadow claw also make it a much more useful move in general.
And of course Confusion and Disable actually work now.

In terms of nerfs, he's lighter (duh), his tail attacks are slower (but also more powerful!) and teleport is slower (apparently so
that it would be easier to control online).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wish his Bair didn't sail through an opponent and do nothing half the time. It's disconcerting when a huge tail goes through an opponent and does nothing. It seems like the most consistent time it hits is when the tail is 2/3 of the way through it's motion.

I want to like Nair but unless an opponent is caught in it they can out prioritize it with anything and everything. Which is kinda disappointing as it is Mewtwo's only move that hits on both sides.

 

[Karsticles]

Here is my "2000 Matches with Mewtwo Celebration Post". It's basically a list of reasons why I don't think he's good, and I'm hugely disappointed in him. He seriously just needs significant changes to be a good character. His major issues (besides lots of hitbox issues):

1) Light as a feather - I am fine with this, but it is definitely a problem. Jigglypuff has the best aerial control in the game for playing it safe, and Rosalina has a living wall in front of her. Nothing justifies Mewtwo's weight. Even his teleport, which one might think could get him out of sticky situations, maintains a hitbox during its time of travel - he isn't just reappearing, he's traveling, and you can smack him down during it.

2) Defensive, but no actual good defensive options (Bowser has Fortress, Mewtwo has...?). Nair needs to have a huge startup hitbox behind and below him, or it needs to have zero landing lag and less startup (currently 11 frames to jump + start the move, compared with Mario or Sheik whom both get their OoS Nair at 7 frames IIRC).

3) No way to pressure opponents offensively. His aerials are too floaty, and his only good ground attack is dtilt. The only way to fix this is to give him better approach options, and to make anything reflected by Confuse immune to reflection. Otherwise he'll still have a huge set of unplayable matchups like Fox and Falco. Sakurai should really add crouch-canceling into the game, because Mewtwo with crouch cancels might actually have offensive options that don't require short hops into fast-falling to position his only good move better (dtilt, as you all know).

4) No response to offensive rolling. One of a few characters in the game with this problem. Nair buffing fixes this as well. Alternatively, Sakurai should give his Shadow Ball charging hitbox back. You know, the defining feature that Lucario stole and got to keep for some reason.

5) No good options after jumping, and no good ledge get-up options. Let's say Mewtwo goes for the Fair...then what? Nothing, that's what. It produces so little shieldstun that it isn't safe to use - you have to burn your double jump to "run away" after trying. An opponent can run in and punish. You can double jump into a second Fair, but it can be shield grabbed (lol) between hits because of where you have to stay. You can use Confusion for more aerial spacing to land better, but Confusion isn't safe on its own. Basically, Fair can't be used as a poke like Ness' can, because Ness' Fair multi-hits to make the move safe for spacing. The move should hit a lot lower than it does, and create more pushback.

6) Shadow Ball, his defining move, is mediocre. Garbage, even, compared to Samus' charge shot. As a small harassment tool, it is beaten out by numerous other options. It needs to have faster startup, at least.

7) Confusion is slow as hell. You can't reflect anything on reaction. It has to be predictive because of the massive startup: 12 frames. Compare this to Fox's Reflector, which starts on frame 6. 6. That's half the startup. Mewtwo doesn't have 12 frames to reflect fast projectiles on reaction - he just gets hit. Furthermore, most other reflectors in this game are better than Confusion, and if you're using Confusion, it's probably to keep yourself from dying from your own Shadow Ball getting reflected back at you by a superior reflector.

8) Project M teleport. Just sayin'. If Mewtwo is going to be light as a feather, he should have some godlike stuff to make it worthwhile. If you compare Mewtwo's moveset to other characters, he has weaker tools than most mid-weight characters. There's just nothing "fantastic" or interesting about him to justify his weight. Rather than make him heavier, I wish they would justify his weight class by giving him something that terrifies other players. When they first revealed Mewtwo, I was ecstatic because I thought they gave him his Project M teleport. Then I found out it was his air dodge. ASS. If you don't know what the Project M teleport is like, check this video out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMd6wAoqsJ4

Fail, Sakurai. Mewtwo has the worst teleport in the game. The float would be badass, too, but we can't have fun things.

9) How about some combos/damage? Yeah, he has some badass combos at low %, and he can get you to ~40% in no time off of a dtilt. But...then what? His only combo past the low % is jab to dtilt, and it isn't even guaranteed against sex kickers like Luigi. Plenty of other characters have great combo setups, but Mewtwo loses all of his aside from Nair shenanigans, which involve guessing which side the opponent will land on (LOL - why is this random?), and he can utilt into Usmash against some characters in some standing stances at point blank range - amazing, right? The biggest problem with Mewtwo is that his damage is crud. Each tail flick does ~5% damage like he's Sheik, but he has to work so much harder for those hits than Sheik does. You could double his damage on everything, and then it might be reasonable.

10) I want 10, so I'm going to think of one more...oh yeah, his dodges. Why were these nerfed? Mewtwo has one of the worst side dodges in the game. Again, this is part of the discontinuity with his weight class. Why make it so hard to survive with this guy? Why not make him do a teleport dodge, like Palutena (or, you know, like Mewtwo when he air dodges)? Why not make his air dodge hold him still instead of making him continue downward? Hell, give him the only directional air dodge in the game. Anything to make him stand out and justify his weight class.

I think it says something when one of the most awaited DLC characters of all time has resulted in almost no one playing him. To be frank, I was disappointed on release day just because the teleport was so uninteresting - in my fondest dreams, I was going to be able to act out of it. Instead I got a slow, limited, light, and light-hitting character. It felt good to say all that.

 

[Xzsmmc]

I get the impression that the complaints regarding Mewtwo are mainly about him not being one of the best characters in the game.

Or that he possesses too many flaws and not enough ways to make up for them. Which is a perfectly valid complaint.

 

[LimitCrown]

I want to like Nair but unless an opponent is caught in it they can out prioritize it with anything and everything. Which is kinda disappointing as it is Mewtwo's only move that hits on both sides.

Air attacks don't usually clash with other air attacks or ground attacks. The only way that Mewtwo's nair would "outprioritize" anything is if the hitbox of that attack was more disjointed.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Air attacks don't usually clash with other air attacks or ground attacks. The only way that Mewtwo's nair would "outprioritize" anything is if the hitbox of that attack was more disjointed.

Then the sparks should have a disjoint. The dark energy stuff in Jab 2 and Dash attack are disjointed.

 

[Nobie]

Here is my "2000 Matches with Mewtwo Celebration Post". It's basically a list of reasons why I don't think he's good, and I'm hugely disappointed in him. He seriously just needs significant changes to be a good character. His major issues (besides lots of hitbox issues):

1) Light as a feather - I am fine with this, but it is definitely a problem. Jigglypuff has the best aerial control in the game for playing it safe, and Rosalina has a living wall in front of her. Nothing justifies Mewtwo's weight. Even his teleport, which one might think could get him out of sticky situations, maintains a hitbox during its time of travel - he isn't just reappearing, he's traveling, and you can smack him down during it.

2) Defensive, but no actual good defensive options (Bowser has Fortress, Mewtwo has...?). Nair needs to have a huge startup hitbox behind and below him, or it needs to have zero landing lag and less startup (currently 11 frames to jump + start the move, compared with Mario or Sheik whom both get their OoS Nair at 7 frames IIRC).

3) No way to pressure opponents offensively. His aerials are too floaty, and his only good ground attack is dtilt. The only way to fix this is to give him better approach options, and to make anything reflected by Confuse immune to reflection. Otherwise he'll still have a huge set of unplayable matchups like Fox and Falco. Sakurai should really add crouch-canceling into the game, because Mewtwo with crouch cancels might actually have offensive options that don't require short hops into fast-falling to position his only good move better (dtilt, as you all know).

4) No response to offensive rolling. One of a few characters in the game with this problem. Nair buffing fixes this as well. Alternatively, Sakurai should give his Shadow Ball charging hitbox back. You know, the defining feature that Lucario stole and got to keep for some reason.

5) No good options after jumping, and no good ledge get-up options. Let's say Mewtwo goes for the Fair...then what? Nothing, that's what. It produces so little shieldstun that it isn't safe to use - you have to burn your double jump to "run away" after trying. An opponent can run in and punish. You can double jump into a second Fair, but it can be shield grabbed (lol) between hits because of where you have to stay. You can use Confusion for more aerial spacing to land better, but Confusion isn't safe on its own. Basically, Fair can't be used as a poke like Ness' can, because Ness' Fair multi-hits to make the move safe for spacing. The move should hit a lot lower than it does, and create more pushback.

6) Shadow Ball, his defining move, is mediocre. Garbage, even, compared to Samus' charge shot. As a small harassment tool, it is beaten out by numerous other options. It needs to have faster startup, at least.

7) Confusion is slow as hell. You can't reflect anything on reaction. It has to be predictive because of the massive startup: 12 frames. Compare this to Fox's Reflector, which starts on frame 6. 6. That's half the startup. Mewtwo doesn't have 12 frames to reflect fast projectiles on reaction - he just gets hit. Furthermore, most other reflectors in this game are better than Confusion, and if you're using Confusion, it's probably to keep yourself from dying from your own Shadow Ball getting reflected back at you by a superior reflector.

8) Project M teleport. Just sayin'. If Mewtwo is going to be light as a feather, he should have some godlike stuff to make it worthwhile. If you compare Mewtwo's moveset to other characters, he has weaker tools than most mid-weight characters. There's just nothing "fantastic" or interesting about him to justify his weight. Rather than make him heavier, I wish they would justify his weight class by giving him something that terrifies other players. When they first revealed Mewtwo, I was ecstatic because I thought they gave him his Project M teleport. Then I found out it was his air dodge. ***. If you don't know what the Project M teleport is like, check this video out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMd6wAoqsJ4

Fail, Sakurai. Mewtwo has the worst teleport in the game. The float would be badass, too, but we can't have fun things.

9) How about some combos/damage? Yeah, he has some badass combos at low %, and he can get you to ~40% in no time off of a dtilt. But...then what? His only combo past the low % is jab to dtilt, and it isn't even guaranteed against sex kickers like Luigi. Plenty of other characters have great combo setups, but Mewtwo loses all of his aside from Nair shenanigans, which involve guessing which side the opponent will land on (LOL - why is this random?), and he can utilt into Usmash against some characters in some standing stances at point blank range - amazing, right? The biggest problem with Mewtwo is that his damage is crud. Each tail flick does ~5% damage like he's Sheik, but he has to work so much harder for those hits than Sheik does. You could double his damage on everything, and then it might be reasonable.

10) I want 10, so I'm going to think of one more...oh yeah, his dodges. Why were these nerfed? Mewtwo has one of the worst side dodges in the game. Again, this is part of the discontinuity with his weight class. Why make it so hard to survive with this guy? Why not make him do a teleport dodge, like Palutena (or, you know, like Mewtwo when he air dodges)? Why not make his air dodge hold him still instead of making him continue downward? Hell, give him the only directional air dodge in the game. Anything to make him stand out and justify his weight class.

I think it says something when one of the most awaited DLC characters of all time has resulted in almost no one playing him. To be frank, I was disappointed on release day just because the teleport was so uninteresting - in my fondest dreams, I was going to be able to act out of it. Instead I got a slow, limited, light, and light-hitting character. It felt good to say all that.

If you seriously think Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is worse than Samus's charge shot I'm not sure how seriously to take the rest of that.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I get the impression that the complaints regarding Mewtwo are mainly about him not being one of the best characters in the game.

If I wanted to play a game whereis one of the best characters, I'd go play Project M or Pokemon, and obviously, I don't play Project M. I don't want my Mewtwo to be a literally broken pile of ****, and that goes both ways in terms of character balance. Really, it's like saying Zelda mains aren't allowed to complain that their favorite character has never been remotely good in a Smash game (unless you count her ability to transform into a top tier character in Melee) because "they just want her to be top tier!" I seriously hope thatisn't as rushed as Mewtwo, on the behalf of all Lucas mains out there.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wish his Bair didn't sail through an opponent and do nothing half the time. It's disconcerting when a huge tail goes through an opponent and does nothing. It seems like the most consistent time it hits is when the tail is 2/3 of the way through it's motion.

I want to like Nair but unless an opponent is caught in it they can out prioritize it with anything and everything. Which is kinda disappointing as it is Mewtwo's only move that hits on both sides.

It's an electric body. It only hits when Mewtwo touches the opponent here, in Melee and in Project M.

If you seriously think Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is worse than Samus's charge shot I'm not sure how seriously to take the rest of that.

Charge Shot does charge marginally faster, but it has considerably worse endlag. Good luck firing more than one
at an approaching opponent.

Here is my "2000 Matches with Mewtwo Celebration Post". It's basically a list of reasons why I don't think he's good, and I'm hugely disappointed in him. He seriously just needs significant changes to be a good character. His major issues (besides lots of hitbox issues):

1) Light as a feather - I am fine with this, but it is definitely a problem. Jigglypuff has the best aerial control in the game for playing it safe, and Rosalina has a living wall in front of her. Nothing justifies Mewtwo's weight. Even his teleport, which one might think could get him out of sticky situations, maintains a hitbox during its time of travel - he isn't just reappearing, he's traveling, and you can smack him down during it.

2) Defensive, but no actual good defensive options (Bowser has Fortress, Mewtwo has...?). Nair needs to have a huge startup hitbox behind and below him, or it needs to have zero landing lag and less startup (currently 11 frames to jump + start the move, compared with Mario or Sheik whom both get their OoS Nair at 7 frames IIRC).

3) No way to pressure opponents offensively. His aerials are too floaty, and his only good ground attack is dtilt. The only way to fix this is to give him better approach options, and to make anything reflected by Confuse immune to reflection. Otherwise he'll still have a huge set of unplayable matchups like Fox and Falco. Sakurai should really add crouch-canceling into the game, because Mewtwo with crouch cancels might actually have offensive options that don't require short hops into fast-falling to position his only good move better (dtilt, as you all know).

4) No response to offensive rolling. One of a few characters in the game with this problem. Nair buffing fixes this as well. Alternatively, Sakurai should give his Shadow Ball charging hitbox back. You know, the defining feature that Lucario stole and got to keep for some reason.

5) No good options after jumping, and no good ledge get-up options. Let's say Mewtwo goes for the Fair...then what? Nothing, that's what. It produces so little shieldstun that it isn't safe to use - you have to burn your double jump to "run away" after trying. An opponent can run in and punish. You can double jump into a second Fair, but it can be shield grabbed (lol) between hits because of where you have to stay. You can use Confusion for more aerial spacing to land better, but Confusion isn't safe on its own. Basically, Fair can't be used as a poke like Ness' can, because Ness' Fair multi-hits to make the move safe for spacing. The move should hit a lot lower than it does, and create more pushback.

6) Shadow Ball, his defining move, is mediocre. Garbage, even, compared to Samus' charge shot. As a small harassment tool, it is beaten out by numerous other options. It needs to have faster startup, at least.

7) Confusion is slow as hell. You can't reflect anything on reaction. It has to be predictive because of the massive startup: 12 frames. Compare this to Fox's Reflector, which starts on frame 6. 6. That's half the startup. Mewtwo doesn't have 12 frames to reflect fast projectiles on reaction - he just gets hit. Furthermore, most other reflectors in this game are better than Confusion, and if you're using Confusion, it's probably to keep yourself from dying from your own Shadow Ball getting reflected back at you by a superior reflector.

8) Project M teleport. Just sayin'. If Mewtwo is going to be light as a feather, he should have some godlike stuff to make it worthwhile. If you compare Mewtwo's moveset to other characters, he has weaker tools than most mid-weight characters. There's just nothing "fantastic" or interesting about him to justify his weight. Rather than make him heavier, I wish they would justify his weight class by giving him something that terrifies other players. When they first revealed Mewtwo, I was ecstatic because I thought they gave him his Project M teleport. Then I found out it was his air dodge. ***. If you don't know what the Project M teleport is like, check this video out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMd6wAoqsJ4

Fail, Sakurai. Mewtwo has the worst teleport in the game. The float would be badass, too, but we can't have fun things.

9) How about some combos/damage? Yeah, he has some badass combos at low %, and he can get you to ~40% in no time off of a dtilt. But...then what? His only combo past the low % is jab to dtilt, and it isn't even guaranteed against sex kickers like Luigi. Plenty of other characters have great combo setups, but Mewtwo loses all of his aside from Nair shenanigans, which involve guessing which side the opponent will land on (LOL - why is this random?), and he can utilt into Usmash against some characters in some standing stances at point blank range - amazing, right? The biggest problem with Mewtwo is that his damage is crud. Each tail flick does ~5% damage like he's Sheik, but he has to work so much harder for those hits than Sheik does. You could double his damage on everything, and then it might be reasonable.

10) I want 10, so I'm going to think of one more...oh yeah, his dodges. Why were these nerfed? Mewtwo has one of the worst side dodges in the game. Again, this is part of the discontinuity with his weight class. Why make it so hard to survive with this guy? Why not make him do a teleport dodge, like Palutena (or, you know, like Mewtwo when he air dodges)? Why not make his air dodge hold him still instead of making him continue downward? Hell, give him the only directional air dodge in the game. Anything to make him stand out and justify his weight class.

I think it says something when one of the most awaited DLC characters of all time has resulted in almost no one playing him. To be frank, I was disappointed on release day just because the teleport was so uninteresting - in my fondest dreams, I was going to be able to act out of it. Instead I got a slow, limited, light, and light-hitting character. It felt good to say all that.

Mewtwo's reflector is slow because it doubles as a command grab.

His tail attacks aside from dtilt and utilt do MUCH more damage than 5% when sweetspotted, and if you're not getting
them you're in a safe range.

A lot of this post just sounds like you've been spoiled by Project M and the things Mewtwo could do in Melee that he can't here.
I can't think of a single teleport in this game that's good for aggressive use. Zelda's and Sheik's are mainly used as hard reads
or punishes. You can do some neat things with Mewtwo's, like zip across the length of the stage with the aerial momentum.
Spotdodges in general aren't that good in this game. Also just because Palutena flickers when she dodges doesn't actually
make them better.

Confusion is what holds him still in the air.

Edit: Oh, and as for why Mewtwo doesn't have many combos? It's because he's a mix-up monster
instead. Things like dthrow, Confusion and his jab all put his opponent in jeopardy of serious damage
if they make the wrong move. Jab to disable in particular is potent if you've been conditioning them with grabs.

 

[LimitCrown]

How little shieldstun does Mewtwo's front air attack deal? There aren't any hitlag modifiers and it deals 13% damage.

I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to act out of Teleport. If none of the other characters with similar special moves can do this, then I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to do so.

 

[meleebrawler]

How little shieldstun does Mewtwo's front air attack deal? There aren't any hitlag modifiers and it deals 13% damage.

I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to act out of Teleport. If none of the other characters with similar special moves can do this, then I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to do that.

Fair can be safe on shield, you just have to not be moving towards an enemy on the ground when you do it, like a lot of fairs.

 

[sparkaura]

Mewtwo's shadowball is an amazing tool not even close to garbage. His d-tilt and u-til deal 5% but his other tail moves range from 9%(sour spot)-13% sweet. The guy does massive amounts of damage and kills really early. He's not the greatest but your making it seem like Mewtwo is absolutely trash, which he isn't.

 

[HakuryuVision]

Mewtwo's shadowball is an amazing tool not even close to garbage. His d-tilt and u-til deal 5% but his other tail moves range from 9%(sour spot)-13% sweet. The guy does massive amounts of damage and kills really early. He's not the greatest but your making it seem like Mewtwo is absolutely trash, which he isn't.

Agreed, he does have some heavy flaws (dies way too early, whiffing/janky hitboxes), but he's no where as bad as "trash".
It takes a while to get accustomed to his move-set/play-style, but he's absolutely viable in Smash4.

(...of course i wouldn't object to any buffs, you know? Hehehehe)

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think a core issue with Mewtwo is we haven't found the playstyle that just clicks with him. Rushdown doesn't work, defensive aggressive is kinda there but isn't completely effective.

Most times you want to keep away and wait for that mistake and get a hit in.

 

[Spirst]

Mewtwo isn't trash but I don't know about him being "definitely viable". He has some pretty horrid MUs against the upper echelon of characters who just so happen to be the most used characters in competitive settings. Fox can simply just AA him and given Mewtwo's slow double jump, large frame, and light weight, this is especially bad. Guaranteed damage and KO setups at earlier percents are not fun. Falcon has an actual infinite on him and some kill setups with dthrow to knee which, again, destroys Mewtwo because of his large weight and light frame. Yoshi is another difficult MU since he has better mobility, eggs for pressure, is hard to edgeguard, and kills better than we do. Sheik is another difficult MU and can combo Mewtwo for days. Her weakness in KO potential is now slightly reduced since he's so light and he definitely cannot contend with her frame data outside of like...dtilt. That alone is enough to hurt his viability quite considerably and I do think people who believe he is definitely viable are perhaps a bit too optimistic.

Mewtwo's design seems flawed. He's the second lightest character in the game yet has meh frame data, no special attribute like Luma, mobility is good but not amazing outside of airspeed, a large frame, misleading hitboxes, and only really has strong KO power to compensate. Unlike characters such as Ganon, he traded durability for mobility and is thus more risky to play since he cannot take nearly as much punishment. Characters who rely on hard reads are more difficult to play at higher levels because players are better and create less openings to read. The risk seems a bit too polarized and frustrating since some characters are inherently just better and lack extremes like what Mewtwo has. Is the improved KO potential really worth all of the drawbacks? I would personally trade some of it just for a heftier weight.

I do think he has some positive things going for him as well. Like I said, his airspeed is quite good and allows for cool things like nair crossups. KO potential is solid albeit risky. Shadow Ball is really nice. Recovery is hard to edgeguard. Etc etc. I wouldn't say he's trash but I also don't think he's particularly good and can get rather frustrsting to use against people of equal skill with characters who are simply better and have more tools to make use of.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

From what I've watched, read and tried out with the character in Training Mode (haven't used him online yet), I don't think his strengths are so insignificant for him to be bottom 5 let alone bottom 10. I don't even think the character is low tier. Having said that, I don't think his strengths really compensate for his weaknesses. He seems pretty mediocre for now, possibly low-mid alongside Link, WFT, Marth/Lucina and the like. I'm hoping that something will happen for him. Maybe he needs more tricks with DJC specials (or DJC item throw), and/or teleport ledge cancelling.

There are some things that I just don't get about the character's design.

1. Why is he so light? Low weight is not a particularly good trait to have. The 5 lightest characters in the game are Jiggs, Mewtwo, Game and Watch, Kirby and Rosalina. The only one that makes up for their low weight is Rosalina. The other characters do not have any significant advantages and the low weight exacerbates this issue.
2. Why is Teleport so laggy? And why is the ground teleport ledge cancel so inconsistent? Really disappointed at how butchered this move is. It's just better to jump and then teleport to the ground/ledge
3. Why does Shadowball not have a charging hitbox? It's a really strange change.
4. Why is his grab so bad? Active grab box lasts for one frame, whereas most characters last for a bit longer and/or have better reach.

I don't think his hitboxes are visually confusing outside of his Up Tilt and Up Air. They do seem long ranged, but tiny (I hope I'm wrong).

So, he's not terrible, but he isn't stellar simply because he has a combination of bad attributes (mediocre frame data, big hurtbox, few ways to deal with pressure, and very low resilience).

 

[MYU2]

Mewtwo is pretty good, you just gotta get used to him (I was on a winning streak with him on FG). However I would like the following 2 changes.

• Mewtwo is heavy but slow
• Shadow ball charge damage

 

[MagiusNecros]

I misread.

But FG isn't any place to get a feel for the character.

 

[Karsticles]

If you seriously think Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is worse than Samus's charge shot I'm not sure how seriously to take the rest of that.

Fires faster.
Travels faster.
Bigger hitbox.

Mewtwo's uncharged version is better than Samus' uncharged version, but that's why Samus has missiles, which are way better than our uncharged Shadow Ball.

I think a core issue with Mewtwo is we haven't found the playstyle that just clicks with him. Rushdown doesn't work, defensive aggressive is kinda there but isn't completely effective.

Most times you want to keep away and wait for that mistake and get a hit in.

This is the same problem Bowser and Ganondorf have, though - when does a Sheik player make a "mistake"?

Mewtwo's shadowball is an amazing tool not even close to garbage. His d-tilt and u-til deal 5% but his other tail moves range from 9%(sour spot)-13% sweet. The guy does massive amounts of damage and kills really early. He's not the greatest but your making it seem like Mewtwo is absolutely trash, which he isn't.

Nah, he's probably mid tier. But in a fighting game, mid tier might as well be trash if you want to win tournaments.

How little shieldstun does Mewtwo's front air attack deal? There aren't any hitlag modifiers and it deals 13% damage.

I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to act out of Teleport. If none of the other characters with similar special moves can do this, then I don't think that Mewtwo should be able to do so.

Every character should have something unique and cool to set them apart.
Several characters can act out of their Up B move, like Sonic and Megaman. Why not Mewtwo?

Charge Shot does charge marginally faster, but it has considerably worse endlag. Good luck firing more than one
at an approaching opponent.


Mewtwo's reflector is slow because it doubles as a command grab.

His tail attacks aside from dtilt and utilt do MUCH more damage than 5% when sweetspotted, and if you're not getting
them you're in a safe range.

A lot of this post just sounds like you've been spoiled by Project M and the things Mewtwo could do in Melee that he can't here.
I can't think of a single teleport in this game that's good for aggressive use. Zelda's and Sheik's are mainly used as hard reads
or punishes. You can do some neat things with Mewtwo's, like zip across the length of the stage with the aerial momentum.
Spotdodges in general aren't that good in this game. Also just because Palutena flickers when she dodges doesn't actually
make them better.

Confusion is what holds him still in the air.

Edit: Oh, and as for why Mewtwo doesn't have many combos? It's because he's a mix-up monster
instead. Things like dthrow, Confusion and his jab all put his opponent in jeopardy of serious damage
if they make the wrong move. Jab to disable in particular is potent if you've been conditioning them with grabs.

Charge Shot has worse endlag, but that is the least important feature on a full-screen kill move.

Confusion is a command grab that we could live without. Huge startup, lots of recovery, little damage, no real follow-ups. If it missed on characters in exchange for being a good reflector, I would take that in a heartbeat.

Okay, so sometimes the tails do 9% - big deal. It's a poke that leads to nothing and has too much of a risk factor.

I have never played Project M, and I didn't use Mewtwo in Melee. Great, so you can't think of a single good aggressive teleport - why can't Mewtwo be the only one? It's like saying "Oh, I can't think of another character with a puppet, I don't think Rosalina should have one" - Mewtwo needs things to justify his weight class.

Spot dodges are incredible in this game - oi. Yes, disappearing while dodging is superior to not doing so.

Mewtwo has **** for mixups. Do you know how you get out of dthrow and Confusion mixups? You jump. You jump because Metwo has no frame advantage, so they lead to nothing most of the time. There's no reason to do anything else, and chasing after an opponent in the air isn't a "mixup" - it's crap. Jab has some good stuff against some characters, but others can sex kick out of a jab setup, and these are the same characters Mewtwo can't do crap against in general.

 

[MagiusNecros]

When it comes to Sheik you may as well Dtilt the whole match since everything we have is super unsafe and everything Sheik has is super safe. Not to mention an invisible Projectile we can only shield against since Confusion is based on Prediction.

Meaning it isn't too hot for Mewtwo players.

Usually Sheik has a hard time killing people but with the weight of Mewtwo it will make Sheik look like she has kill power.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fires faster.
Travels faster.
Bigger hitbox.

Mewtwo's uncharged version is better than Samus' uncharged version, but that's why Samus has missiles, which are way better than our uncharged Shadow Ball.


This is the same problem Bowser and Ganondorf have, though - when does a Sheik player make a "mistake"?


Nah, he's probably mid tier. But in a fighting game, mid tier might as well be trash if you want to win tournaments.


Every character should have something unique and cool to set them apart.
Several characters can act out of their Up B move, like Sonic and Megaman. Why not Mewtwo?


Charge Shot has worse endlag, but that is the least important feature on a full-screen kill move.

Confusion is a command grab that we could live without. Huge startup, lots of recovery, little damage, no real follow-ups. If it missed on characters in exchange for being a good reflector, I would take that in a heartbeat.

Okay, so sometimes the tails do 9% - big deal. It's a poke that leads to nothing and has too much of a risk factor.

I have never played Project M, and I didn't use Mewtwo in Melee. Great, so you can't think of a single good aggressive teleport - why can't Mewtwo be the only one? It's like saying "Oh, I can't think of another character with a puppet, I don't think Rosalina should have one" - Mewtwo needs things to justify his weight class.

Spot dodges are incredible in this game - oi. Yes, disappearing while dodging is superior to not doing so.

Mewtwo has **** for mixups. Do you know how you get out of dthrow and Confusion mixups? You jump. You jump because Metwo has no frame advantage, so they lead to nothing most of the time. There's no reason to do anything else, and chasing after an opponent in the air isn't a "mixup" - it's crap. Jab has some good stuff against some characters, but others can sex kick out of a jab setup, and these are the same characters Mewtwo can't do crap against in general.

There's something wrong with believing a projectile that fires as slowly as Samus's Missiles is better than Shadow
Ball. The only way they're "better" is that they don't take a charge to fire.

Have you EVER actually been completely thrown off by a flickering roll or spotdodge other than the first few times you saw it?

So your opponent likes to jump out of your confusions and dthrows? Then that's more Shadow Ball charging time
for you. And unless you have great aerial mobility it's not that hard for Mewtwo to chase you on the ground.
You can get a lot more out of Mewtwo if you learn to be patient and not try to force followups every time it looks
like he should.

For someone who doesn't play Project M, you sure speak highly of the things Mewtwo does there.
But still it's clear you and many others won't be happy until Mewtwo is an Akuma.

Kinda strange that you think he's mid tier after everything you've said. That would imply you think he actually
has some good qualities that let him compete to an extent, if not win with consistency. Especially since mid-tier in this game is nowhere near as bad as Melee or Brawl.

 

[Nobie]

Fires faster.
Travels faster.
Bigger hitbox.

Mewtwo's uncharged version is better than Samus' uncharged version, but that's why Samus has missiles, which are way better than our uncharged Shadow Ball.


This is the same problem Bowser and Ganondorf have, though - when does a Sheik player make a "mistake"?


Nah, he's probably mid tier. But in a fighting game, mid tier might as well be trash if you want to win tournaments.


Every character should have something unique and cool to set them apart.
Several characters can act out of their Up B move, like Sonic and Megaman. Why not Mewtwo?


Charge Shot has worse endlag, but that is the least important feature on a full-screen kill move.

Confusion is a command grab that we could live without. Huge startup, lots of recovery, little damage, no real follow-ups. If it missed on characters in exchange for being a good reflector, I would take that in a heartbeat.

Okay, so sometimes the tails do 9% - big deal. It's a poke that leads to nothing and has too much of a risk factor.

I have never played Project M, and I didn't use Mewtwo in Melee. Great, so you can't think of a single good aggressive teleport - why can't Mewtwo be the only one? It's like saying "Oh, I can't think of another character with a puppet, I don't think Rosalina should have one" - Mewtwo needs things to justify his weight class.

Spot dodges are incredible in this game - oi. Yes, disappearing while dodging is superior to not doing so.

Mewtwo has **** for mixups. Do you know how you get out of dthrow and Confusion mixups? You jump. You jump because Metwo has no frame advantage, so they lead to nothing most of the time. There's no reason to do anything else, and chasing after an opponent in the air isn't a "mixup" - it's crap. Jab has some good stuff against some characters, but others can sex kick out of a jab setup, and these are the same characters Mewtwo can't do crap against in general.

Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is slower, yes, but that's actually a strength and not a weakness. I'll explain why, using your own words.

You said in your post that "Spot dodges are incredible in this game." You know what's actually good at punishing a spot dodge? Shadow Ball! Its slow and erratic trajectory means that often times even an opponent successfully anticipates your Shadow Ball and spot dodges, they get hit by the tail end of it.

Now keep in mind that Shadow Ball kills earlier than Charge Shot, and that the recoil can be used to space out opponents, and that fully charged it does tremendous shield damage, AND you recover from it quickly for follow-ups.

As for Mewtwo's air dodge, it's actually arguably better than every other character's in the game. It can not only cover his awkward second jump, but it also recovers more quickly, thus letting Mewtwo act out of it sooner than any other character. This is a double-edged sword, of course, because it also means lingering attacks can hit him more easily.

I know you played 2000 games and all, and that Mewtwo in all likelihood isn't high tier, but I don't think you have the right mindset to play Mewtwo, no offense. I might be jumping to conclusions, but this is what I see based on just the very fact that you believe Mewtwo has terrible mixups. Like let's actually think through what happens after you Confuse an opponent. Your answer was that they can immediately jump away, and exploit the fact that Mewtwo has nothing really guaranteed out of confusion.

As soon as you mentioned being concerned that there were no guaranteed followups, that's when I came to the conclusion that you simply aren't approaching Mewtwo with the right mindset. First, being in the air against an opponent underneath you is never a good idea, whether it's Mewtwo or Game & Watch or Mario. Jumping up, burning your second jump in the process, puts the opponent at a disadvantage, and you have to use your positional advantage in a way that takes you further. It's as if you're thinking of follow-ups purely in terms of what will net a KO or serious damage, and while nothing is guaranteed with Mewtwo, he also has options available to just force the opponent into further uncomfortable positions due to a mix of good ground and air speed, among other properties.

I'm going to take a quote from another thread in this forum, by a Melee Mewtwo player @MookieRah. Now even he'll admit that he doesn't have much experience with Smash 4 Mewtwo, but I think that, if you want to continue to use Mewtwo, you should take what he says to heart:

Down throw does not combo into anything. Your opponent always has the means to avoid your followup and even punish you for it. While it's very tempting to follow up with a fair, know that it will likely not land against a good opponent. Instead, your best option is to be patient and react to what your opponent does. In the worst case scenario your opponent DIs away to escape from you. That's fine, just walk/dash (but don't run) forward, take all that valuable stage he is giving you. Park yourself in your optimal range and then you will find yourself with more stage control, limiting the options your opponent has while reserving your own.

...

In neutral, M2 should focus on closing off as much stage from your opponent without using risky moves, or commitments. This means that you shouldn't randomly dash attack or dash grab your opponent, something I see A LOT in current M2 Sm4sh videos. You should use movement that reserves options, such as walking or quick dashes. Running is not ideal, because once you are running you limit what you can do. You want to be able to react quickly to your opponent's commitments. If your opponent is not making commitments of his own, that is when you need to start poking.

 

[Karsticles]

When it comes to Sheik you may as well Dtilt the whole match since everything we have is super unsafe and everything Sheik has is super safe. Not to mention an invisible Projectile we can only shield against since Confusion is based on Prediction.

Meaning it isn't too hot for Mewtwo players.

Usually Sheik has a hard time killing people but with the weight of Mewtwo it will make Sheik look like she has kill power.

I Nair Sheik like crazy. I basically play it like Bowser. I go 50/50 against Nami's Sheik, which isn't a great one, but it means something to meeee.

There's something wrong with believing a projectile that fires as slowly as Samus's Missiles is better than Shadow
Ball. The only way they're "better" is that they don't take a charge to fire.

Have you EVER actually been completely thrown off by a flickering roll or spotdodge other than the first few times you saw it?

So your opponent likes to jump out of your confusions and dthrows? Then that's more Shadow Ball charging time
for you. And unless you have great aerial mobility it's not that hard for Mewtwo to chase you on the ground.
You can get a lot more out of Mewtwo if you learn to be patient and not try to force followups every time it looks
like he should.

For someone who doesn't play Project M, you sure speak highly of the things Mewtwo does there.
But still it's clear you and many others won't be happy until Mewtwo is an Akuma.

Kinda strange that you think he's mid tier after everything you've said. That would imply you think he actually
has some good qualities that let him compete to an extent, if not win with consistency. Especially since mid-tier in this game is nowhere near as bad as Melee or Brawl.

I just think the teleport feature in Project M is badass. I don't know anything else about him in PM.

Yeah, I won't be happy until Mewtwo is good.

Mewtwo has some go do qualities. He is more like the Seth of this game than the Akuma, but he doesn't have the godlike command grab.

 

[RayNoire]

I've always preferred to main low tiers, so I'm fine with Mewtwo being one. Better than being popular and having everyone know the matchup.

Just fix his hitboxes and I'm good.

 

[Karsticles]

Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is slower, yes, but that's actually a strength and not a weakness. I'll explain why, using your own words.

You said in your post that "Spot dodges are incredible in this game." You know what's actually good at punishing a spot dodge? Shadow Ball! Its slow and erratic trajectory means that often times even an opponent successfully anticipates your Shadow Ball and spot dodges, they get hit by the tail end of it.

Now keep in mind that Shadow Ball kills earlier than Charge Shot, and that the recoil can be used to space out opponents, and that fully charged it does tremendous shield damage, AND you recover from it quickly for follow-ups.

As for Mewtwo's air dodge, it's actually arguably better than every other character's in the game. It can not only cover his awkward second jump, but it also recovers more quickly, thus letting Mewtwo act out of it sooner than any other character. This is a double-edged sword, of course, because it also means lingering attacks can hit him more easily.

I know you played 2000 games and all, and that Mewtwo in all likelihood isn't high tier, but I don't think you have the right mindset to play Mewtwo, no offense. I might be jumping to conclusions, but this is what I see based on just the very fact that you believe Mewtwo has terrible mixups. Like let's actually think through what happens after you Confuse an opponent. Your answer was that they can immediately jump away, and exploit the fact that Mewtwo has nothing really guaranteed out of confusion.

As soon as you mentioned being concerned that there were no guaranteed followups, that's when I came to the conclusion that you simply aren't approaching Mewtwo with the right mindset. First, being in the air against an opponent underneath you is never a good idea, whether it's Mewtwo or Game & Watch or Mario. Jumping up, burning your second jump in the process, puts the opponent at a disadvantage, and you have to use your positional advantage in a way that takes you further. It's as if you're thinking of follow-ups purely in terms of what will net a KO or serious damage, and while nothing is guaranteed with Mewtwo, he also has options available to just force the opponent into further uncomfortable positions due to a mix of good ground and air speed, among other properties.

I'm going to take a quote from another thread in this forum, by a Melee Mewtwo player @MookieRah. Now even he'll admit that he doesn't have much experience with Smash 4 Mewtwo, but I think that, if you want to continue to use Mewtwo, you should take what he says to heart:

Sorry for the double post, but this website is so crappy on mobile that I can't scroll down enough to add more to my previous post.

I actually completely agree with everything you said, except for two things:
1) My mindset. I don't care if nothing is guaranteed off of Confusion. But people need to stop saying it provides a mixup. It provides nothing. Being above an opponent is less than desirable, but most characters can land safely without issue.

2) No one spot dodges Shadow Ball. It is slow and easy to perfect shield. Samus charge shot does similar shield damage, but she is better at breaking shields thanks to missiles and bombs.

I agree with the guy you quoted, too, except that in some Matchups Mewtwo can't cut off space with Shadow Ball due to the opponent having a better projectile. I am thinking Link, Mario, Yoshi, and Sheik as examples. Against these opponents, you need to sacrifice Shadow Ball zoning in the neutral for the full charge, because it shuts down their projectile game since you punish it too hard. One nice thing about Samus is that she gets her charge shot and she can still fire projectiles, but Mewtwo has to choose what style he wants to play with Shadow Ball.

 

[sparkaura]

In a game where the meta is still in its infancy and is reasonably balanced, mid tier characters are something to watch for because they def have a chance at taking tourneys. Blazblue, imo the most balanced fighter out there, has had mid to low tier characters take tourneys. But I do understand your frustrations and you have every right to vent.

 

[Karsticles]

From what I've watched, read and tried out with the character in Training Mode (haven't used him online yet), I don't think his strengths are so insignificant for him to be bottom 5 let alone bottom 10. I don't even think the character is low tier. Having said that, I don't think his strengths really compensate for his weaknesses. He seems pretty mediocre for now, possibly low-mid alongside Link, WFT, Marth/Lucina and the like. I'm hoping that something will happen for him. Maybe he needs more tricks with DJC specials (or DJC item throw), and/or teleport ledge cancelling.

There are some things that I just don't get about the character's design.

1. Why is he so light? Low weight is not a particularly good trait to have. The 5 lightest characters in the game are Jiggs, Mewtwo, Game and Watch, Kirby and Rosalina. The only one that makes up for their low weight is Rosalina. The other characters do not have any significant advantages and the low weight exacerbates this issue.
2. Why is Teleport so laggy? And why is the ground teleport ledge cancel so inconsistent? Really disappointed at how butchered this move is. It's just better to jump and then teleport to the ground/ledge
3. Why does Shadowball not have a charging hitbox? It's a really strange change.
4. Why is his grab so bad? Active grab box lasts for one frame, whereas most characters last for a bit longer and/or have better reach.

I don't think his hitboxes are visually confusing outside of his Up Tilt and Up Air. They do seem long ranged, but tiny (I hope I'm wrong).

So, he's not terrible, but he isn't stellar simply because he has a combination of bad attributes (mediocre frame data, big hurtbox, few ways to deal with pressure, and very low resilience).

I strongly disagree with you on Kirby and Jigglypuff. Their multi-jump ability and excellent ability to influence their horizontal trajectory is pretty much unparalleled in the cast. They might need changes to make them great characters, but I think their weight is justified by their mobility options.

G&W is definitely harder to justify, and he needs a safer toolset. I don't know what's going on there. Maybe the random power of the Side B "9" needs to be kept in check in Sakurai's opinion.

 

[meleebrawler]

I strongly disagree with you on Kirby and Jigglypuff. Their multi-jump ability and excellent ability to influence their horizontal trajectory is pretty much unparalleled in the cast. They might need changes to make them great characters, but I think their weight is justified by their mobility options.

G&W is definitely harder to justify, and he needs a safer toolset. I don't know what's going on there. Maybe the random power of the Side B "9" needs to be kept in check in Sakurai's opinion.

Don't see how Kirby has an "excellent ability to influence his horizontal trajectory". Multi-jumps are nice of course
and he's tiny making him hard to hit, but his air mobility is just not good at all, even if he can stay there for a while.
It's barely better than Dedede's. What he gets instead is a more well-rounded ground game with more potent tilts and
useful smashes.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I strongly disagree with you on Kirby and Jigglypuff. Their multi-jump ability and excellent ability to influence their horizontal trajectory is pretty much unparalleled in the cast. They might need changes to make them great characters, but I think their weight is justified by their mobility options.

G&W is definitely harder to justify, and he needs a safer toolset. I don't know what's going on there. Maybe the random power of the Side B "9" needs to be kept in check in Sakurai's opinion.

What goes up must come down. You cannot stall in the air forever with Jiggs and without a projectile, or ranged attacks, or rewards off of throws (unless you have her custom Rest), adding low resilience into the equation does not help her much. Her mobility is completely air based which is not that great tbh. You can do more things on the ground (jumping included), but you cannot do much in the air.

As for Kirby, his mobility is bad. Slightly below average dash speed and horrible air speed. And he has range issues. And no projectile. And limited throw combos. His aerials are very safe though and his up tilt is pretty solid.

Wario, on the other hand, is an example of a character that has an "excellent ability to influence his horizontal trajectory" and he doesn't sacrifice ground mobility or weight; he only has poor range and difficulty landing KOs. He can deal with projectiles much better than either of those two and he has a great recovery.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Hes not trash i killed a mario at 38% in one move.

Having a reflecter and the best projectile in the game imo (shadow ball) is his niche imo.

Started using him again 2 day on FG and won so many games.

You do have to be very careful with him though and shadow ball is best used quickly so they shield makes it so simple to approach and grab which mewtwo excels at his grabs and his dash attack too is very good.
Also his upsmash is godly

 

[Karsticles]

Hes not trash i killed a mario at 38% in one move.

Having a reflecter and the best projectile in the game imo (shadow ball) is his niche imo.

Started using him again 2 day on FG and won so many games.

You do have to be very careful with him though and shadow ball is best used quickly so they shield makes it so simple to approach and grab which mewtwo excels at his grabs and his dash attack too is very good.
Also his upsmash is godly

His virtues are not lost on me.

Mewtwos grab is weak, though. It has nice follow-ups, but the actual grab is pretty bad.

Here is a recent replay I uploaded. I have a ton more to share:
https://youtu.be/-CCul0ctxRQ

 

[Dark Phazon]

His virtues are not lost on me.

Mewtwos grab is weak, though. It has nice follow-ups, but the actual grab is pretty bad.

Here is a recent replay I uploaded. I have a ton more to share:
https://youtu.be/-CCul0ctxRQ

He does has some good stuff...thing is everybody pretty much feels weak because i play Ganon 90% of the time.
Well everyone except Bowser.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Hes not trash i killed a mario at 38% in one move.

Having a reflecter and the best projectile in the game imo (shadow ball) is his niche imo.

Started using him again 2 day on FG and won so many games.

You do have to be very careful with him though and shadow ball is best used quickly so they shield makes it so simple to approach and grab which mewtwo excels at his grabs and his dash attack too is very good.
Also his upsmash is godly

I agree. Mewtwo is the farthest thing from trash. Sure, he could use a few buffs here and there but he definitely is not trash.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Halberd is his best stage. Double edged sword be damned.