What makes Meta Knight better than Snake?

[Ace Of Flames]

I'd say his weaknesses are when explosives hit him, and his recovery.

If hit by his own explosive, he'll go flying farther then normally. The only character that goes farther is Jigglypuff. The latter is that he can be gimped by characters like Jigglypuff and Meta-Knight since he has no protection during his recovery. The latter is more important then the former.

Anyone with a spike does a good job with gimping him also.

 

[exbum]

Everyone of Snakes moves can KO except for his up+B.

I've been KO'd by the UP B :x

 

[Affinity]

I've been KO'd by the UP B :x

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[Nic64]

how does something that epic happen and not be on film =/

 

[CaliburChamp]

I've been KO'd by the UP B :x

LMAO. Yeah, I can see how that can happen, being KOed by the cypher.. **** even Snake's taunts do damage and knockback. None of MK's taunts can do that. lol.

Currently, it seems like more people are realizing that Snake isn't only the second best character. He's the best character. They are starting to see and understand this now after watching Ally's Snake video's of him playing in tournaments and dominating well known regional players. 2-3 stocking them.

Face it... Snake is the best character in the game. Most people learned how to get out of mach tornado and prevent it, most people know his range on his up+B and try to stay out of his range. Most people realize you have to make MK approach you.

EDIT: This is the video where Snake's cypher KILLS! *_*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pPvboBLM_s&feature=channel_page

 

[SuSa]

how does something that epic happen and not be on film =/

I killed my friends Peach with up-B and have it recorded.

It's going to be in my combo video.

 

[DMG]

Currently, it seems like more people are realizing that Snake isn't the second best character. He's the best character.

Face it... Snake is the best character in the game. Most people learned how to get out of mach tornado and prevent it, most people know his range on his up+B and try to stay out of his range. Most people realize you have to make MK approach you.

Snake is not the best character in the game, I already described why MK is a better overall character than Snake a few posts back.

Snake would only be better than MK if he was perfect with Dthrow (Although you could also say that someone could be perfect at escaping from Dthrow). Otherwise he can't compete at the same level as MK.

MK is a better overall character than Snake because he is safer. When Snake does a move, he is usually pretty committed to that move. His tilts, his smashes, his aerials, even pulling a grenade out has a certain time frame that he is stuck with it in his hand before he can shield drop it or toss it. MK just doesn't have the same commitment on most of his moves compared to Snake. It is also harder to put MK in a bad position, where as Snake has to work his butt off on getting back to the ground safely once someone tosses him upwards or when he is forced to recover. You have to use C4, B reversed Grenades, aerials, etc. MK doesn't have to bother with that when he gets sent upwards or has to recover, it's actually dangerous for a lot of characters to even try to edgeguard MK.

In short, MK is faster and safer overall. He may not **** certain characters as hardcore as Snake can, but MK also doesn't have the same weaknesses that characters can universally take advantage of like they do to Snake.

This thread should be closed, it's clear that MK is better than Snake. You can argue over just how much better MK is than Snake, but that would be a different discussion in itself.

 

[Nic64]

Face it... Snake is the best character in the game. Most people learned how to get out of mach tornado and prevent it, most people know his range on his up+B and try to stay out of his range. Most people realize you have to make MK approach you.

just because you can make MK approach you doesn't mean he's at a disadvantage for doing so, at worst, MK has a 45:55 match against snake and an advantage on every other character in the game. at best, snake is 40:60 against DDD and even with a few other characters. for many characters, snake is just as ridiculous as MK, but he's definitely not better overall because MK just has fewer exploitable weaknesses.

 

[Palpi]

Metaknight has soo many approach options, why is forcing mk to approach such a bad thing? So bad it makes Snake the better char overall? (All match-ups.)

 

[Staco]

This thread should be closed, it's clear that MK is better than Snake. You can argue over just how much better MK is than Snake, but that would be a different discussion in itself.

It isnt clear if MK is better than Snake.
Just because you dont like him.

 

[Nic64]

It isnt clear if MK is better than Snake.

uh, yes it is. snake has characters that put him at a disadvantage, meta knight really doesn't, just(maybe) a very slight disadvantage to snake. no one cares if snake ***** bowser harder than meta knight, the point is that snake can be counterpicked and meta knight can't be

 

[CaliburChamp]

Snake is not the best character in the game, I already described why MK is a better overall character than Snake a few posts back.



This thread should be closed, it's clear that MK is better than Snake. You can argue over just how much better MK is than Snake, but that would be a different discussion in itself.

Snake's moves are both powerful and quick, he doesn't have to be committed to a certain move when he can jab cancel into f-tilts, and he can choose to f-tilt once if he thinks his opponent will block the second hit. Snake has single move combos... you press 1 command button, and you put 20-30% damage from that one move with multi hit moves like N-air, D-air, and F-tilt.
You say Snake gets put into a very bad position when he is in the air... he can C4 drop to cover himself and air dodge safely, sure if Snake couldn't air dodge then he would be screwed. His up+B doesnt even put him in a helpless state after use when everyone of MK's specials does.

As for match ups...

Snakes match up mostly made of hardcore **** matchups. He beats alot of characters badly, he does have his counters, but even then the match is still winnable. These counter characters are.

Dedede (chaingrabs and waddle dees)
Falco (chaingrabs, spike, lasers)
Zero Suit Samus (ranged attacks, down+B, downsmash combo)
Diddy Kong (Bananas, side b gimps snake's recovery)
Donkey Kong (ranged attacks, spikes, cargo grab+stagespike)
ROB (lasers and gyro, high priority attacks, can outcamp Snake)
Wolf (d-throw by edge+D-air spike, laser spam)
Olimar (outcamps Snake, and has a useful spike against Snakes recovery)

Metaknight does have counters, backed up by tournament results, self experience, watching videos. Metaknight does beat many characters, but not as hard as Snake. His counters are.

Lucario (D-air ***** MK, and outranges MK.)
Yoshi (Chain grab release, invulnerable to shuttle loop edgeguard while double jumping)
Zero Suit Samus (Down+B beats all of MK's best moves, outranges MK.)
Snake (Grenades shuts down MK's tornado use. Outranges MK and outlives him)
Donkey Kong (Outranges, outpowers and outlives MK.)
Bowser (Chain grab release, outlives and out powers MK)

People would like to say MK has no counters cause most of these characters that do counter MK are very underused.
Also, just because MK has better matchups against the cast doesn't mean he is the best character. Snakes hardcore **** match ups are what give him the edge against the rest.
In other words...
Snake has more "QUALITY" match ups in his favor.
Metaknight has more "QUANTITY" match ups in his favor.

 

[Nic64]

Lucario (D-air ***** MK, and outranges MK.)

even at best. lucario only outranges MK with fsmash, which is in fact punishable for a fast character like MK. I'd also like to know how exactly dair ***** MK, it will **** MK's not familiar with the matchup who just shuttle loop right into it, but it's not like he can approach with it or anything, I think it's highly avoidable for MK for the most part. the best thing lucario has in his favor is that if he can avoid getting gimped he continues to get a larger chance to KO even if he gets dominated in the actual fight, but a fresh dsmash or nair near the edge can prevent him from getting too too strong

Yoshi (Chain grab release, invulnerable to shuttle loop edgeguard while double jumping)

still a bit in MK's favor as he is better in almost every way aside from getting chain grabbed

Zero Suit Samus (Down+B beats all of MK's best moves, outranges MK.)

even IMO, and you also forgot that ZSS is another character with a CG release on him

Snake (Grenades shuts down MK's tornado use. Outranges MK and outlives him)

slightly in snakes favor I believe, the only such match for MK. snake does not outrange MK, however.

Donkey Kong (Outranges, outpowers and outlives MK.)

tornado ***** and he is fairly easy to gimp, once MK is inside on him he can also have a really hard time shaking him off

Bowser (Chain grab release, outlives and out powers MK)

see donkey kong, except the chain grab makes it nearly even I think, bowser will still have a hell of a time actually grabbing MK though

I also really don't think a lot of the characters you listed for snake qualify as counters for him, but this is the why MK is better than snake topic so I'm too lazy for that now

 

[DMG]

Snake's moves are both powerful and quick, he doesn't have to be committed to a certain move when he can jab cancel into f-tilts, and he can choose to f-tilt once if he thinks his opponent will block the second hit. Snake has single move combos... you press 1 command button, and you put 20-30% damage from that one move with multi hit moves like N-air, D-air, and F-tilt.

Everyone of those moves has commitment lol. Ftilt, Nair, Dair, and even Jab has commitment (U can cancel it into another move, but that is assuming you have already hit your opponent, where commitment doesn't matter very much if you are nearly guaranteed a follow up hit.)

You say Snake gets put into a very bad position when he is in the air... he can C4 drop to cover himself and air dodge safely, sure if Snake couldn't air dodge then he would be screwed. His up+B doesnt even put him in a helpless state after use when everyone of MK's specials does.

Lol. Cmon, you don't have to beat around the bush or stretch the truth, we all know Snake suffers quite a bit in a lot of matchups when he is forced airborne. C4 and airdodge can only go so far to help him land safely (same thing for B Reversing grenades). He is weak from below since he lacks a good downwards aerial that has a nice hitbox/speed/priority/etc.

The fact that MK has such a flexible recovery is why it usually doesn't matter if his specials would leave him in a helpless state. He can use multiple jumps, aerials to fend off edge guarders, he can Glide under stages, etc. It would not matter if MK gets put in a helpless state after certain moves if the situation never arises. In most matches, it doesn't occur.

As for match ups...

Metaknight does have counters, backed up by tournament results, self experience, watching videos. Metaknight does beat many characters, but not as hard as Snake. His counters are.

Lucario (D-air ***** MK, and outranges MK.)
Yoshi (Chain grab release, invulnerable to shuttle loop edgeguard while double jumping)
Zero Suit Samus (Down+B beats all of MK's best moves, outranges MK.)
Snake (Grenades shuts down MK's tornado use. Outranges MK and outlives him)
Donkey Kong (Outranges, outpowers and outlives MK.)
Bowser (Chain grab release, outlives and out powers MK)

People would like to say MK has no counters cause most of these characters that do counter MK are very underused.
Also, just because MK has better matchups against the cast doesn't mean he is the best character. Snakes hardcore **** match ups are what give him the edge against the rest.
In other words...
Snake has more "QUALITY" match ups in his favor.
Metaknight has more "QUANTITY" match ups in his favor.

Lucario does not counter MK... at best it is 45:55 for Lucario.

Yoshi only counters him IMO on walkoff stages or nearly walkoff stages with nice walls that Yoshi can infinite on.

IDK about ZSS, seems kinda iffy.

Snake might counter MK, but IDK MK can be pretty nasty to him. More like an even matchup IMO.

DK does not counter MK lol, most DK mains would agree with me on that one I would think.

Bowser I do not think counters MK, I've not seen a reliable way for Bowser to win that matchup.


I dunno about Quality over Quantity, I would think a safer character with only a few possible bad/even matchups would be a better overall character than one with more one sided matchups but also with more true, defined counters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...]

As for match ups...

Snakes match up mostly made of hardcore **** matchups. He beats alot of characters badly, he does have his counters, but even then the match is still winnable. These counter characters are.

Dedede (chaingrabs and waddle dees)
Falco (chaingrabs, spike, lasers)
Zero Suit Samus (ranged attacks, down+B, downsmash combo)
Diddy Kong (Bananas, side b gimps snake's recovery)
Donkey Kong (ranged attacks, spikes, cargo grab+stagespike)
ROB (lasers and gyro, high priority attacks, can outcamp Snake)
Wolf (d-throw by edge+D-air spike, laser spam)
Olimar (outcamps Snake, and has a useful spike against Snakes recovery)

[...]

None of these characters except D3 and maybe Olimar have the advantage. all the others go even...

Snake has the advantage over Falco btw 55/45

 

[Staco]

What is with Diddy Kong countering MK?

 

[CaliburChamp]

Nic 64 and Dr. Mario Guy: That's all I'm going to mention, cause I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind on the match up, I already gave my full opinion on the matter. I call Snake the best character, and I will always call Snake the best character in brawl, unless some amazing new strategy, or a drastic change in the SBR rule stages list happens. But I don't think neither will happen. Competitive players are too obsessive over neutral and starter stages which Snake does better on those stages than most, and those stages are not neutral for Snake, he excels on those starter stages cause of his excellent field control, so he basically has the first round advantage all the time.

I still believe those characters do counter Snake and MK, through research of videos and online rankings and looking at their opponents feedback and on who won the match. So, I'm not just guessing who their counters might be, I know for sure what characters they have trouble with, just because I was bright enough to do the research myself. Do it yourself and you'll finally understand. And please, don't mention Wifi johns, thats just lame.

 

[Gindler]

Metaknight does have counters, backed up by tournament results, self experience, watching videos. Metaknight does beat many characters, but not as hard as Snake. His counters are.

Lucario (D-air ***** MK, and outranges MK.)
Yoshi (Chain grab release, invulnerable to shuttle loop edgeguard while double jumping)
Zero Suit Samus (Down+B beats all of MK's best moves, outranges MK.)
Snake (Grenades shuts down MK's tornado use. Outranges MK and outlives him)
Donkey Kong (Outranges, outpowers and outlives MK.)
Bowser (Chain grab release, outlives and out powers MK)

People would like to say MK has no counters cause most of these characters that do counter MK are very underused.
Also, just because MK has better matchups against the cast doesn't mean he is the best character. Snakes hardcore **** match ups are what give him the edge against the rest.
In other words...
Snake has more "QUALITY" match ups in his favor.
Metaknight has more "QUANTITY" match ups in his favor.

I can't think of a character that snake just out right destroys. Maybe just bowser since he out ranges and outcamps him (since bowser is all about defensive play)

I thought mentioning lucario was funny, you mentioned one move that is unbeatable by anyone in the game really, Oh and just because Azen can beat mks with lucario doesn't mean lucario counters him...

for yoshi all he has on mk are eggs that out prioritize everything MK can do and the release grab, having 3 semi-reliable kill moves isn't fun against mk

All the others can be gimped by MK...


Oh yeah, incase no one's explained it to calibur before...MK can gimp people, snake can only really gimp people who tether (and that's still iffy)

 

[CaliburChamp]

I can't think of a character that snake just out right destroys. Maybe just bowser since he out ranges and outcamps him (since bowser is all about defensive play)

I thought mentioning lucario was funny, you mentioned one move that is unbeatable by anyone in the game really, Oh and just because Azen can beat mks with lucario doesn't mean lucario counters him...

for yoshi all he has on mk are eggs that out prioritize everything MK can do and the release grab, having 3 semi-reliable kill moves isn't fun against mk

All the others can be gimped by MK...


Oh yeah, incase no one's explained it to calibur before...MK can gimp people, snake can only really gimp people who tether (and that's still iffy)

My Lucario has never lost to an MK. And the Lucario boards don't complain so much about MK's like the other character boards.

True, MK can gimp more than Snake can. But Snake has one of the best edge guarding strategies in the game. Nikitia can stage spike, Snake mortar slide, fall of stage and B-air opponent. Snake can spike with F-air against some characters recoveries. Snake can up-smash spam the edge, making getting back to the stage very hard against some characters. He can drop C4 over the ledge to prevent the opponent to edge hog and make it explode at that time. Snake does get early % kills, which is what gimping means.

 

[Staco]

Lucario can live really really long against MK, if he uses a mix of airdodge and dair to recover and if he uses right DI all the time.
Snake hasnt got a hard time of killing Lucario.

 

[DMG]

I still believe those characters do counter Snake and MK, through research of videos and online rankings and looking at their opponents feedback and on who won the match. So, I'm not just guessing who their counters might be, I know for sure what characters they have trouble with, just because I was bright enough to do the research myself. Do it yourself and you'll finally understand. And please, don't mention Wifi johns, thats just lame.

Lol. I am not just an average tourney player looking to pick a fight, I understand matchups quite well. Well enough in fact to determine that neither DK nor Lucario counter MK and that a lot of your proposed matchups are incorrect or very, very stage specific for them to be true.

I gave a reasonable, thought out post about why MK is overall better than Snake a few pages back. If you disagree with me, then prove me wrong.

 

[Staco]

Show us proofs, that Snakes bad matchups are true?
I dont know people, who **** allys and dsfs Snakes with "Snake counterpick chars".

 

[Nic64]

a 40:60 matchup can be overcome if the player is better than their opponent, DDD is definitely bad news for snake, and ROB and falco are about even with him IMO

 

[DMG]

Show us proofs, that Snakes bad matchups are true?
I dont know people, who **** allys and dsfs Snakes with "Snake counterpick chars".

DDD and Olimar are definitely counters. ROB is debatable but most people agree that ROB has an easier time in the matchup, Falco is definitely not 55:45 for Snake, Diddy does well against him, and Pikachu also seems like he does well.

Also DSF picked up MK to deal with Snake's bad matchups and because MK is a lot harder for his opponents to CP than Snake at a higher level of play. Lain also has some vids vs Ally's Snake with Dedede and those easily show the weakness's Snake has.

 

[M15t3R E]

Snake better than MK?

Is this a joke thread?

Snake's air game fails against the air game of most other characters and he can be gimped very easily while recovering.
While it's true that Snake excels at edgeguarding, MK is an even better gimper.
No character has the advantage over MK, except for arguably Snake.
Snake has true counters such as ROB and DDD, and more 55:45 match-ups than MK.

You do know that the SBR looks at character match-ups and tournaments results when voting on new tier lists, right?

Wait until Jan. 5th, when the SBR again votes on Meta Knight being the top of the tier list.

 

[Deoxys]

Snake better than MK?

Is this a joke thread?

Obv not, I mean the title is "what makes MK better" not "Snake is better than MK."

None of these characters except D3 and maybe Olimar have the advantage. all the others go even...

Snake has the advantage over Falco btw 55/45

Huh? R.O.B. doesn't have an advantage over Snake?! 55/45 R.O.B. makes sense to me on paper. Also, why wouldn't Falco have an advantage against Snake? That doesn't make sense to me either.

I think some of the others don't even go even though, lol.

What is with Diddy Kong countering MK?

He doesn't "counter" MK, he just goes even with him. A big part of the reason is that his banana game removes options from any character without ranged attacks.

 

[Staco]

Olimar counters Snake? Oo
I want to see olimars getting frist at tournaments and beating all the snakes, lol.

And if you look at real results, you will see ROB isnt > Snake.
There arent top ROBs who beat the top Snakes. Example, NLs ROB against DSF.
And its ****ing hard for ROB to kill Snake.

by the way: When can you call a character a counter? When the matchups is 60:40 or what?

If Falco has got an 55:45 mu against Snake he goes even with him and has got a small advantage, but he doesnt counters him, am I right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Huh? R.O.B. doesn't have an advantage over Snake?! 55/45 R.O.B. makes sense to me on paper. Also, why wouldn't Falco have an advantage against Snake? That doesn't make sense to me either.

I forgot about ROB although I think it's 5/5...

Snake indeed beats Falco....the only thinkg Falco has is the CG but Snake can either tech the chainspike and continue to **** Falco or blow himself up twice or so till he reaches 40% and then continue to **** Falco. Falco has massive KO issues and Snake can crawl under the lasers. Snake has huge advantages in range, weigth and even punishing options (ftilt OoS)

55/45 Snake's favour

 

[Staco]

And Snake can spam granades until he gets chaingrabbed or until he gets over 40%.
I mean trying to blow falco up next to him, not far away where falco can spam lasors.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Well...like others may have said already, MK has 50:50's at worst. Snake has like three bad matchups.

 

[Deoxys]

I forgot about ROB although I think it's 5/5...

Snake indeed beats Falco....the only thinkg Falco has is the CG but Snake can either tech the chainspike and continue to **** Falco or blow himself up twice or so till he reaches 40% and then continue to **** Falco. Falco has massive KO issues and Snake can crawl under the lasers. Snake has huge advantages in range, weigth and even punishing options (ftilt OoS)

55/45 Snake's favour

Thanks for the info.

Well...like others may have said already, MK has 50:50's at worst. Snake has like three bad matchups.

Actually, other people have said that MK has one 45/55 disadvantage (although I think Olimar is 55/45 against MK in addition to Snake).

Olimar counters Snake? Oo
I want to see olimars getting frist at tournaments and beating all the snakes, lol.

And if you look at real results, you will see ROB isnt > Snake.
There arent top ROBs who beat the top Snakes. Example, NLs ROB against DSF.
And its ****ing hard for ROB to kill Snake.

by the way: When can you call a character a counter? When the matchups is 60:40 or what?

If Falco has got an 55:45 mu against Snake he goes even with him and has got a small advantage, but he doesnt counters him, am I right?

You're right.

It's generally perceived that
60/40+ = soft counter
70/30+ = hard counter

 

[Tero.]

DDD and Olimar are definitely counters. ROB is debatable but most people agree that ROB has an easier time in the matchup, Falco is definitely not 55:45 for Snake, Diddy does well against him, and Pikachu also seems like he does well.

Also DSF picked up MK to deal with Snake's bad matchups and because MK is a lot harder for his opponents to CP than Snake at a higher level of play. Lain also has some vids vs Ally's Snake with Dedede and those easily show the weakness's Snake has.

I so agree with this post

DDD/Olimar counter
ROB/Falco/Pika/Diddy even but slight advantage for them.

oh and mk ofc

 

[StarHawk_30]

MK owns snake no matter what. to me snake is just to easily gimped.

 

[Staco]

Is there any thread where is told, Olimar counters Snake.
I cant imagine why.
Snake has got some good projectiles against the smashes etc..
And he can edgeguard Olimar very easy.

I think I ask in the Snake boards.

 

[TKD]

Meta Knight is possibly just as good as Snake and Falco. But he's cooler and easier to play =D

And just look at matchups (approx):

Meta Knight 4.5/5.5 Snake
Meta Knight 5.5/4.5 Diddy-Falco-Kirby-G&W
Snake 4/6 King Dedede
Snake ?/? R.O.B.-Olimar
Falco 4/6 Ice Climbers
Falco 4/6 Mr. Game & Watch

Wider margin of win FTW