What makes Meta Knight better than Snake?

[Martselsoep]

I think snake and Metaknight are pretty close in how good they are but there are a few things that gives it a nodge in Meta's favor.

aerial and ground game
MK's aerials are far better then snakes similiar to how snakes ground abilities are bettter then MK's altough I have to say that MK is at a smaller disadvantage on the ground against snake then snake has a disadvantage in the air but snake is heavier and has more killing power then MK, so I think that gives snake a very slight advantage at this point.

gimping and edgeguarding.
here it is where MK excells. His offstage play is far better then snakes and altough snakes edgeguarding skills are at best even with MK's skills, he is not on par when it comes down to gimping.

recovery, ledgeguarding and being on the ledge.
Snakes c4 recovery makes him hit himself and snakes must make the painfull choice of using it on stage or off-stage His cipher has a predictable trajection and is easily gimped if you play against a *******. But his recovery also has good sides super armor is nice and no helpless state helps and he can airdodge the second he loses his SA is also helpfull. Metaknight has four B moves, one which give him a glide, a normal glide and 5 jumps to recover. Very versatile very effective.
Metaknight and Snake are both extremely good ledgeguarders, Metaknight which his fast ground speed fast moves and air superiority and snake with his Usmash throws down-B and basicly all of his ****.
Metaknights loves being on the ledge because he's got approximitaly a quadrillion options, Up B reverse Up-b second jump up-B, second jump Uair string and zo on.
Snake Hates being on the ledge he has basicly a few options and all are very predictable.

all in all I would say Snake is a great character overall, but he has some general situations he doesn't have good answers to. Metaknight on the other hand is comfortable with almost any situation you can put him in making him a better character then snake.

 

[Snowstalker]

lmao what?

R.O.B
King Dedede
Falco
Pikachu
Olimar

If you count 45:55 matchups as bad, add DK and MK.

 

[Deoxys]

actually snake can regrab you even without perfect shielding if he walks into you slowly and then shields when you move

Hmm? You're saying Snake can regrab you if he shields even when you just stand up?

If that's the case I guess it comes down to predicting that or rolling behind him as he moves forward.

Either way it's still less than 50%.

I posted 'two' of Metaknight's advantages over Snake and you're acting like for some reason I don't recognize his other amazing capabilities. For some reason this is 'everything about the game.' You aren't even one of those sly trolls, you're just an idiot who deliberately misrepresents people.

You are an idiot, and nobody likes you. Shut up and go away, and lose some weight, fat fatty fattington.

Well you were ignoring Snake's advantages by having a "come back when this is true" kind of attitude. You're right about nobody liking me, though. It's clear since my friends list on this forum is empty while yours is so full. The fact that I'm an idiot, too, is also clear since I only go to Columbia University. :'/

 

[Staco]

nice post gheb
and I think the most people cant imagine about snakes amazing techcase tricks (or dthrow to ftilt) because the most werent confronted with it (the most snakes arent good in using the dthrow)

most people dont even now that you can do a small and sometimes big techcase with falco dair xD

@ martselsoep
yes, mks gimping abilitys are amazing
but look at snakes edgeguard abilitys
upsmash and so on just takes the piss out of the most characters

if you play a really good snake its extrem hard to come back at the stage without getting damage or without getting kicked back offstage

 

[Martselsoep]

@ martselsoep
yes, mks gimping abilitys are amazing
but look at snakes edgeguard abilitys
upsmash and so on just takes the piss out of the most characters

if you play a really good snake its extrem hard to come back at the stage without getting damage or without getting kicked back offstage

you didn't read my post correctly I said Snake is at best even with MK's edgeguarding skills in which I meant they are both amazing at edgeguarding and I counteed them as even. I thought it was nuff said there

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Deoxys, do you even know what you're talking about? How long you get dthrow chased depends almost only one the Snake player. If he's doing it right, there isn't much you can do. If he shields, two options of his opponent are covered. If he places a mine well, a third option is covered as well (most likely rolling away). So the only safe option is to roll behind him, where he can easily regrab you. The only option where he can't regrab you is by rolling into the mine - that's more % than any MKs moves could ever do: 3% for the "jab" + 12% from the dthrow and idk how much from the mine. That's easily 30% from a single dthrow. And that's only if he fails to regrab at least once (in that case hee'd do ~40%).

And if I tell you now that Snakes utilt KOs much better than any of MKs moves and that he outlives him by a significant amount, you can't deny that Snake can overcome his bad match-up's (lol as if there where many -____-) easier than MK does. Snake is easily capable of turning a match-up in his favour again - moreso than MK is. Even if Snake has worse match-up's overall.

Seriously, I stopped caring about people's opinions about the time the MK-ban nonsense started. I just don't care anymore about what most people say - Snake is the game's best character unless a broken tech is found. Fox never won nearly as much tournaments in Melee as Marth did. But he is still overall considered the best character. Tournament results won't change that. In the Snake vs MK debate it's just the same. Since the MK ban hysteria started people completely lost their minds. Everybody who doesn't say that MK > the world is called crazy or idk what esle. It's absurd.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6foGKyqCFfA at 7:50

That is a pretty good indication of why MK has the advantage offstage.

Snake utilt KO's better than pretty much any move in the game, but I don't think it makes him the best in the game, it just means he has an amazing KO option. I would put him right up there with MK, but he doesn't have the incredible gimping or recovery abilities which seem truly essential at high level play.

 

[laki]

Snake has unquestionable bad mathcups (60-40s though they may be) in Pika, Falco, DDD, and others that escape me.

MK has possible 50-50s or 55-45s in Yoshi(lol), Diddy, Snake, and Olimar.

Snakes tech chase is beast though. Oddly, most snakes don't shield after down through. They usually try to call there opponents. I wonder if this has to do with the speed of rolls cause I know it takes 7 frames to drop a shield but I don't know how many frames of roll animation there are o.O

 

[Nic64]

falco is not unquestionably bad at all, all snake has to do is avoid getting grabbed before 40% and he has a huge advantage after that. and honestly I'm not so sure about pikachu either, DDD is the only match that snake has that I'd consider 40:60 against him

 

[Deoxys]

falco is not unquestionably bad at all, all snake has to do is avoid getting grabbed before 40% and he has a huge advantage after that. and honestly I'm not so sure about pikachu either, DDD is the only match that snake has that I'd consider 40:60 against him

What about ROB?

 

[CaliburChamp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6foGKyqCFfA at 7:50

That is a pretty good indication of why MK has the advantage offstage.

Snake utilt KO's better than pretty much any move in the game, but I don't think it makes him the best in the game, it just means he has an amazing KO option. I would put him right up there with MK, but he doesn't have the incredible gimping or recovery abilities which seem truly essential at high level play.

MK does **** Snake's recovery, better than anyone else in the game, as long as MK gets hit by the cypher as he shuttle loops he can return back to the stage safely. But this thread is not an MK vs Snake thread. Its a thread saying who is the best character. My vote for best character would be Snake, then Metaknight. Also, not all characters get ***** by MK's edgeguarding as much, Zero Suit Samus is an example, her Down+B is amazing, an MK wouldn't be smart to use SL vs ZS down + B.

And, as for people saying that Snake gets comboed hard in the air, think again, all Snake needs to do is pull out a grenade, and it will interupt the aerial combo from happening and put extra damage on your opponent, and Snake too, but Snake is heavy, so he can deal with it.

 

[DMG]

And, as for people saying that Snake gets comboed hard in the air, think again, all Snake needs to do is pull out a grenade, and it will interupt the aerial combo from happening and put extra damage on your opponent, and Snake too, but Snake is heavy, so he can deal with it.

Incorrect, to a degree. When Snake pulls out a grenade, he can be hit by an aerial and if it is decently spaced it will hit Snake but not the grenade. He holds it near his chest, you can hit him well spaced from the sides, and you can also hit him spaced above or below. If you have a lingering hitbox, then it might hit Snake and the grenade when it drops, but otherwise it is perfectly viable to hit Snake in the air when he is holding a grenade and not make the nade explode.

 

[Kitamerby]

So the only safe option is to roll behind him, where he can easily regrab you.

Only wusses regrab from that situation.

REAL MEN go for a turnaround Fsmash.

 

[Nic64]

What about ROB?

I'm somewhat conflicted on that but if it's in ROB's favor I certainly don't believe it to be by a large margin

Incorrect, to a degree. When Snake pulls out a grenade, he can be hit by an aerial and if it is decently spaced it will hit Snake but not the grenade. He holds it near his chest, you can hit him well spaced from the sides, and you can also hit him spaced above or below. If you have a lingering hitbox, then it might hit Snake and the grenade when it drops, but otherwise it is perfectly viable to hit Snake in the air when he is holding a grenade and not make the nade explode.

yep, if it were that easy then snake could be a good candidate for best in the game but against many characters it's complete hell trying to touch the ground again

REAL MEN go for a turnaround Fsmash.

it would be so awesome if that actually worked =/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I tried to fsmash poeple who roll behind me but I always hit their invincibility frames ;_;

Regrab >>> fsmash

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Snake would only be better than MK if he was perfect with Dthrow (Although you could also say that someone could be perfect at escaping from Dthrow). Otherwise he can't compete at the same level as MK.

MK is a better overall character than Snake because he is safer. When Snake does a move, he is usually pretty committed to that move. His tilts, his smashes, his aerials, even pulling a grenade out has a certain time frame that he is stuck with it in his hand before he can shield drop it or toss it. MK just doesn't have the same commitment on most of his moves compared to Snake. It is also harder to put MK in a bad position, where as Snake has to work his butt off on getting back to the ground safely once someone tosses him upwards or when he is forced to recover. You have to use C4, B reversed Grenades, aerials, etc. MK doesn't have to bother with that when he gets sent upwards or has to recover, it's actually dangerous for a lot of characters to even try to edgeguard MK.

In short, MK is faster and safer overall. He may not **** certain characters as hardcore as Snake can, but MK also doesn't have the same weaknesses that characters can universally take advantage of like they do to Snake.

^this^^^^^^

 

[Staco]

yeah, I dont think rob > Snake is true
maybe 50:50
or its better for snake
rob has got a ****ing hard time at killing snake =/

 

[laki]

Rob outcamps snake. Notice most characters that are advantaged or 55/45 Are characters that outcamp Snake and force him to approach. See pika, falco, etc.

The gyro is a great trap, and whenever Snake pulls out a grenade, Rob can laser.

Also, Rob can live just as long as snake. As for Rob having trouble killing, it's not that hard to save some of Robs KO moves for when he gets snake to high percent. Try whiffing a f-smash than following up with another f-smash cause there is very little cooldown. Not to mention edgaurding.

Rob has Advantage.

And there is no question that currently meta has the best matchups in the game and I don't see that changing in the future.

Metas matchups against top characters:

Snake: Debatable. Between 55/45 and 45/55
DDD: 60/40
G&W: 60/40 possibly 65/35
Falco: 60/40
Marth: 65/35
Rob: 60/40
Diddy: 60/40 45/55 on FD
Olimar: I think 60/40 but I say even at worst

Than take Snake's matchups

Meta: 55/45 to 45/55
DDD: 40/60
G&W: 60/40
Falco: 45/55 to 40/60
Marth: 55/45 to possibly even due to juggle traps.
Rob: 40/60
Diddy: 50/50 though I don't know this matchup to well
Olimar: I also don't know this matchup but I would say 55/45

Meta wins all of the top matches except maybe Snake while Snake has to work much harder to win against the top and high tiers.

 

[Deoxys]

Deoxys, do you even know what you're talking about?

I thought I did, but apparently not:

How long you get dthrow chased depends almost only one the Snake player. If he's doing it right, there isn't much you can do. If he shields, two options of his opponent are covered.

So Snake can shield when he sees the opponent get up, and if the opponent doesn't do a get-up attack the Snake can regrab before the opponent can spotdodge!?

If he places a mine well, a third option is covered as well (most likely rolling away). So the only safe option is to roll behind him, where he can easily regrab you. The only option where he can't regrab you is by rolling into the mine - that's more % than any MKs moves could ever do: 3% for the "jab" + 12% from the dthrow and idk how much from the mine.

20% from the mine. O_o

That's easily 30% from a single dthrow. And that's only if he fails to regrab at least once (in that case hee'd do ~40%).

Are you saying Snake can shield, drop his shield, and grab behind him before the opponent can react, or that he has to determine if the player is rolling behind him or getting up and either turn around or shield accordingly?

 

[DMG]

So Snake can shield when he sees the opponent get up, and if the opponent doesn't do a get-up attack the Snake can regrab before the opponent can spotdodge!?

Yes, if Snake is shielding and the person doesn't do a get up attack, he can regrab them before they can move/spotdodge. However, if Snake presses shield and the person immediately picks a direction to roll before they are released, then he will have trouble catching up to them for a regrab usually. For some of the shorter length/longer duration rolls, he can do it, but for a lot of the cast he can't get another grab off if he guesses wrong and shields at all if they decide to roll.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Snake can shield when he sees the opponent get up, and if the opponent doesn't do a get-up attack the Snake can regrab before the opponent can spotdodge!?

Exactly. The last frames of roll are completely open for any attack. Most get up attacks have a startup animation that makes them fairly easy to powershield.

20% from the mine. O_o

I was just guessing. Idk the correct number. I thought it was something between 15% and 20%...

Are you saying Snake can shield, drop his shield, and grab behind him before the opponent can react, or that he has to determine if the player is rolling behind him or getting up and either turn around or shield accordingly?

Idk how it works but apparently it's possible. You should ask a notable Snake player like G-reg, Chillin or Jesiah about it, since idk the deatails. But if you plant a mine behind you, your opponent has to roll in there unless he wants to get regrabbed...

 

[yummynbeefy]

pits got the edge on snake
mk has no counters but tbh yoshi really isnt a bad matchup for mk

 

[yummynbeefy]

pits got the edge on snake and snake also has a few weak points
mk has a disadvantage on NOBODY

 

[Deoxys]

I don't get why random mains of other characters think they know all of MK's matchups... Just because Praxis says something doesn't make it true....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

what?

Who's Praxis???

 

[Deoxys]

what?

Who's Praxis???

Peach main. Creator of "MK Should Be Banned" group who thinks every matchup is in MK's favor.

 

[Staco]

Haha, I thought overswarm opened the group. xD
And they all think their char will be much better, if they ban mk, lol, never.

 

[choomer]

i've learned that when snake is at a disadvantage in the game (which is not often but it happens) he tends to stay there longer.
Metaknight can regroup faster then snake.

 

[Bob Jane T-Mart]

Meta Knight is extremely fast, moves and dash. This gives him an immediate advantage. So when Snake or anyone is doing a slow attack, Meta Knight can punish it. His KO moves are really fast too. His Tilts have long reach and are good for damaging and his rapid A is very fast and is extremely versatile. While Mach Tornado has great priority and damage. Meta Knights Side B is Fast and is very good for approaches. His Down B is very strong and fairly fast, and can confuse many players

Also I don't like it how Heavy is always associated with good, if you mess up your recovery, with Snake you fall really fast and have no time to try again, while if your Meta Knight you can float slowly downwards, with time to come up with a solution. Meta Knight also has 4 moves to do this with. He also has a very good aerial game, unlike Snake who has about 2 good air move his bair and uair.

What Snake counters this with is traps and very good tilts (that can KO earlier than Meta Knights Smashes with no charge though) and an awesome standard A combo that can KO as well. He also has some of the best projectiles Side B great for edge guarding and his B good for trapping and hampering peoples approach. His move are very versatile eg. I sometimes use his Up Smash to edge guard.

So overall Meta Knight Wins. But they are fairly close. They also represent totally different playstyles (one defensive and highly tactical and the other very aggressive). So they are very hard to compare.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

I played one of the two best snakes here in france yesterday... It was close, we've almost got the same level, though he is a bit better than I, and I've got a huge problem: how can I kill him without d-smash or up-b through his cypher?
I couldn't kill him before 150-200% and, each time, I thought his percents allowed me to kill him with my dsmash (around 110-120%) he didn't die, so my dsmash's killing power reduced, and he lived even longer...
So, if someone knows quite well at how many percents we should use the dsmash to kill him for sure, it'll be cool to post it here...
And, one thing I didn't know (he did it only one time though...)
If a good snake knows you're gonna use your up-b through his cypher, and he's sure to die whatever happens...
He'll use his cypher in the opposite direction of the ground... This way, he dies from the up-b, but the cypher doesn't touch mk -_-...


Then, if someone has some ways to avoid these '^#{`|! grenades, and some other reliable ways to kill him others than those I've already talked about... Please tell^^.

A defensive snake is a real pain in the ***.

 

[SuSa]

I played one of the two best snakes here in france yesterday... It was close, we've almost got the same level, though he is a bit better than I, and I've got a huge problem: how can I kill him without d-smash or up-b through his cypher?
I couldn't kill him before 150-200% and, each time, I thought his percents allowed me to kill him with my dsmash (around 110-120%) he didn't die, so my dsmash's killing power reduced, and he lived even longer...
So, if someone knows quite well at how many percents we should use the dsmash to kill him for sure, it'll be cool to post it here...
And, one thing I didn't know (he did it only one time though...)
If a good snake knows you're gonna use your up-b through his cypher, and he's sure to die whatever happens...
He'll use his cypher in the opposite direction of the ground... This way, he dies from the up-b, but the cypher doesn't touch mk -_-...


Then, if someone has some ways to avoid these '^#{`|! grenades, and some other reliable ways to kill him others than those I've already talked about... Please tell^^.

A defensive snake is a real pain in the ***.

Meta Knight = No Projectile
Snake = Projectiles

Why should we go offensive if you're forced to approach?

Now, just to help you out:

Nair + gimping, otherwise you listed the two options.

Snake can DI most attacks to live to 160%~ anyways, so you want to get him offstage and gimp him, preferably using dair and nair to knock him off the cypher, saving the up-B.

1. You shouldn't be using up-B in that direction anyways, do the 'reverse' shuttle loop part of it to hit Snake with the backside of it, that way if the Cypher doesn't hit you, you can still recover.
2. Center of Stage = 150%~ if he knows how to DI, edge of stage = 120-130% || I'll get some exact numbers for the center of FD, and the side of FD if you want me to.

Avoiding grenades:

1. Don't run into them
2. Keep an eye out for them
3. Don't bother picking them up, or even attempting to pick them up unless you are 100% sure they are uncooked, they are nearby, and you want to use your dash attack.
4. When you throw a grenade and it's the only one out, you will be grenade stripped by your opponent most likely, so press A 3 times rather then once. (A to toss, A to pick up from strip, and A again to toss)
5. Don't use B at %'s higher then about 30%~ where Snake can SDI and TDI the pull a grenade.
6. Side-B is extremely useless because if we hold towards you, we go through you. Free ftilt (random fact for you, all MK's know side-B sucks =p rofl)
7. Don't attack grenades.
8. Space from Snake perfectly, so you don't get grenade countered.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

Ok, thanks for your advices, I'll take note (even if I knew about most, your advice about nades, for exemple, is quite useful)
And, if you could give me the exact numbers for FD... Please do ^^.

 

[Pierce7d]

It's really quite simple actually. Metaknight can fly. In this game, flying is broken. Furthermore, Metaknight has a sword. In this game, swords are broken. Metaknight's sword also has transcended priority, and can attacks very quickly and with good range.

Picture any character in the game, and give them 6 jumps. Bam, broken. Picture any character and give them a sword's worth of range. Bam, broken.

Think about it really . . . Marth WOULD be the best character in the game with 2 more jumps. Link would be S tier with 2 more jumps, Ike would be S-Tier with 2 more jumps. D3 is ALREADY one of the best characters in the game. Kirby is an amazing character, but lacks a swords worth of range, which is his ONLY weakness. Charizard is attached to PKT. Pit is already an amazing character, because he can fly. However Pit was nerfed because his aerials don't autocancel, and he gets outranged by other people with better swords. However, Pit is still an amazing character.

Snake has a swords worth of range in some moves, but not his whole moveset. Still his range is profiecient. Give Snake 2 more jumps, and he'll be better than MK, lol. Flying is hax in this game.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

Let me know when someone learns how to give Snake five jumps and incredible gimping ability.

Don't to remove snake's 4 or so bad matchups, so that he has even matchups and better.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

It's really quite simple actually. Metaknight can fly. In this game, flying is broken. Furthermore, Metaknight has a sword. In this game, swords are broken. Metaknight's sword also has transcended priority, and can attacks very quickly and with good range.

Picture any character in the game, and give them 6 jumps. Bam, broken. Picture any character and give them a sword's worth of range. Bam, broken.

Think about it really . . . Marth WOULD be the best character in the game with 2 more jumps. Link would be S tier with 2 more jumps, Ike would be S-Tier with 2 more jumps. D3 is ALREADY one of the best characters in the game. Kirby is an amazing character, but lacks a swords worth of range, which is his ONLY weakness. Charizard is attached to PKT. Pit is already an amazing character, because he can fly. However Pit was nerfed because his aerials don't autocancel, and he gets outranged by other people with better swords. However, Pit is still an amazing character.

Snake has a swords worth of range in some moves, but not his whole moveset. Still his range is profiecient. Give Snake 2 more jumps, and he'll be better than MK, lol. Flying is hax in this game.

As funny as that was, you have a point.

*imagines marth fair spam with 5 jumps*

 

[Staco]

Marth with 5 jumps wouldnt be good.
If you play a good Metaknight he wont jump all the time and attack with fair.
He will shuffle one or maybe two fairs.
Or he will Dair camp.
But he wont jump more than one time to Fair the opponent to approach him.

 

[Nic64]

Marth with 5 jumps wouldnt be good.

marth being able to follow you off the edge and fair wall of pain you would be retardedly broken, and this would be in addition to what is already a really good character

Pit is already an amazing character, because he can fly. However Pit was nerfed because his aerials don't autocancel, and he gets outranged by other people with better swords. However, Pit is still an amazing character.

I think amazing is stretching it, pit is good but actual amazing characters like MK/Snake/DDD/Olimar/Falco make him look silly by comparison

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

Totally agree with you.

 

[Ace Of Flames]

marth being able to follow you off the edge and fair wall of pain you would be retardedly broken, and this would be in addition to what is already a really good character



I think amazing is stretching it, pit is good but actual amazing characters like MK/Snake/DDD/Olimar/Falco make him look silly by comparison

He'll also have a better recovery and everything

 

[SmashChu]

I'd say his weaknesses are when explosives hit him, and his recovery.

If hit by his own explosive, he'll go flying farther then normally. The only character that goes farther is Jigglypuff. The latter is that he can be gimped by characters like Jigglypuff and Meta-Knight since he has no protection during his recovery. The latter is more important then the former.