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What is your most hated criticism against your most wanted character?

TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
11,210
Location
New World, Minecraft
My two cents on the AT issue is this; the staffers may have wanted as many characters to directly participate in the battle as possible without concerning themselves about reworking them as playable in the same game, so that they can prioritize other things. If that's indeed the case, I can understand, even if they won't confirm it.

We probably will never hear why the likes of Waluigi, Skull Kid and Ashley keep being left out, so all that can be done is trying to rationalize the reason for that.
I think this fits mii costumes as well, and I understand it too; wanting to fit in as many characters as they can even if they won’t be playable, prioritizing other characters as fighters for various reasons while still wanting to let people see their favorite characters represented in the game in some fashion. A very good reason; they can’t make everyone playable, of course.

I still think it leaves the possibility open in DLC if they happened to reconsider a character to be a fighter, like they did Rex before thinking their idea would be too complicated. If not, it’s all good and understandable of course, they just happened to prioritize other characters for varying reasons, doesn’t mean they stopped caring about a character because “we made them an AT already, we can’t do anything with them now,” as people seem to imply when insisting ATs disconfirm (and as they seemed to when insisting spirits and mii costumes disconfirmed). I’m sure Sakurai would’ve said “we already had them in the game in some fashion” if the AT or costume themselves were really why Spring Man and Rex weren’t chosen (with clear reasons being given as to why not them anyway, them even seeming to try Rex).
 
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KirbyWorshipper2465

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
18,078
Location
Somewhere in the West.
I think this fits mii costumes as well, and I understand it too; wanting to fit in as many characters as they can even if they won’t be playable, prioritizing other characters as fighters for various reasons while still wanting to let people see their favorite characters represented in the game in some fashion. A very good reason; they can’t make everyone playable, of course.

I still think it leaves the possibility open in DLC if they happened to reconsider a character to be a fighter, like they did Rex before thinking their idea would be too complicated. If not, it’s all good and understandable of course, they just happened to prioritize other characters for varying reasons, doesn’t mean they stopped caring about a character because “we made them an AT already, we can’t do anything with them now,” as people seem to imply when insisting ATs disconfirm (and as they seemed to when insisting spirits and mii costumes disconfirmed). I’m sure Sakurai would’ve said “we already had them in the game in some fashion” if the AT or costume themselves were really why Spring Man and Rex weren’t chosen (with clear reasons being given as to why not them anyway, them even seeming to try Rex).
Not to mention that some people actually don't mind some characters being ATs at all. Yacht Club Games have openly enjoyed seeing Shovel Knight mingle with the other fighters even if only in this status, which is a lot more humility than how fans tend to take this.

Also, the more detailed Mii costumes are accepted a lot easier, as Sans, Cuphead and Bomberman showed.
 
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SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
Not to mention that some people actually don't mind some characters being ATs at all. Yacht Club Games have openly enjoyed seeing Shovel Knight mingle with the other fighters even if only in this status, which is a lot more humility than how fans tend to take this.
To be fair, there's probably a lot more hype when it's your own creation in Smash and not just someone you like. Just seeing any sort of acknowledgement of the creation you poured your heart into would bring joy. For most of us, it's just a bunch of people we think are neat. Sometimes there's a bit more investment, but it doesn't quite have the same impact as when that game represented is one you made.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
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Pokemon Stadium 2
Not to mention that some people actually don't mind some characters being ATs at all. Yacht Club Games have openly enjoyed seeing Shovel Knight mingle with the other fighters even if only in this status, which is a lot more humility than how fans tend to take this.

Also, the more detailed Mii costumes are accepted a lot easier, as Sans, Cuphead and Bomberman showed.
I don't think anyone would want for all the ATs to be playable anyway. I think the distinction it comes down to is whether the character would be sensible to add as a fighter or not. Andross? Well a big floating head wouldn't really work as a fighter (keeping in mind that characters need things like jumpsquats and ledge hangs). But Waluigi, Isaac, and Shadow? We've got plenty of precedent that they would work as playable fighters, and I think that's what makes people want them playable. They're not exactly obscure characters, either.

With the Mii costumes, I think that comes down to "Would this character look good as a deluxe Mii?" It is for this reason that it makes sense that Travis fans would be bummed by him being a Mii costume, as the proportions just don't fit him. Sans, though? He fits perfectly. It's why myself, and many others who are fans of Geno, were bummed that he didn't get the deluxe treatment (of course, we were divided on it, but many of us would have felt satisfied with that). Also helps that a lot of the characters chosen for deluxe Miis didn't have much of a shot of being playable.

I'm also not entirely sold on ATs deconfirming. I think if they really wanted to, it wouldn't be a problem to promote, say, Krystal to a playable role. I do, however, think it's very unlikely that this will happen... because FP2 only has two slots left, with probably 50+ characters who could be reasonable picks for those slots who aren't ATs. And I wouldn't be surprised if these are our final two characters.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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I don't think anyone would want for all the ATs to be playable anyway. I think the distinction it comes down to is whether the character would be sensible to add as a fighter or not. Andross? Well a big floating head wouldn't really work as a fighter (keeping in mind that characters need things like jumpsquats and ledge hangs). But Waluigi, Isaac, and Shadow? We've got plenty of precedent that they would work as playable fighters, and I think that's what makes people want them playable. They're not exactly obscure characters, either.

With the Mii costumes, I think that comes down to "Would this character look good as a deluxe Mii?" It is for this reason that it makes sense that Travis fans would be bummed by him being a Mii costume, as the proportions just don't fit him. Sans, though? He fits perfectly. It's why myself, and many others who are fans of Geno, were bummed that he didn't get the deluxe treatment (of course, we were divided on it, but many of us would have felt satisfied with that). Also helps that a lot of the characters chosen for deluxe Miis didn't have much of a shot of being playable.

I'm also not entirely sold on ATs deconfirming. I think if they really wanted to, it wouldn't be a problem to promote, say, Krystal to a playable role. I do, however, think it's very unlikely that this will happen... because FP2 only has two slots left, with probably 50+ characters who could be reasonable picks for those slots who aren't ATs. And I wouldn't be surprised if these are our final two characters.
It's also a matter of expectations. Sans made such an impact because a lot of people didn't even think he was possible in any way. Travis, on the other hand, was thought to have a chance, so his Mii Costume was met with much mourning.
 
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Speed Weed

Smash Lord
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People using Bomberman's Mii Costume to say assist promotions can't happen gives me the big angery

It's fine if you think assist promos aren't happening - after all, we've got two slots left and I have seen some valid justifications for it not happening - but the Bomberman costume is the single most bull**** argument for it, because it relies on flawed and incredibly surface-level analysis of characters' individiual positions and a gross misinterpretation of how Smash's development most likely goes.

"Well why wouldn't they just make him playable then-" That's not how it ****ing works! They can't just plop everyone in, this pass only has so much slots, and there's any number of reasons Bomberman could have been passed over. Most likely, he was just outprioritized. Like so many other characters with Mii costumes - who aren't Assists. Bomberman was probably made a Mii for the same reason as most other Mii inclusions, and not because there's this invisible wall preventing them from making Assists playable.

Not to mention another thing: this whole argument also relies on acting like every character with an Assist is in the exact same situation, which is also blatantly untrue. Aside from their status in Smash, every character with an Assist is under different circumstances - from different series, to different roles within their games, to different companies to different time periods since their last game came out. Bomberman is in a different position from Waluigi, who's in a different position from Isaac, and so on, and so forth. One being counted out does not automatically count out the rest, cause they're all in different positions aside from being assists.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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People using Bomberman's Mii Costume to say assist promotions can't happen gives me the big angery

It's fine if you think assist promos aren't happening - after all, we've got two slots left and I have seen some valid justifications for it not happening - but the Bomberman costume is the single most bull**** argument for it, because it relies on flawed and incredibly surface-level analysis of characters' individiual positions and a gross misinterpretation of how Smash's development most likely goes.

"Well why wouldn't they just make him playable then-" That's not how it ****ing works! They can't just plop everyone in, this pass only has so much slots, and there's any number of reasons Bomberman could have been passed over. Most likely, he was just outprioritized. Like so many other characters with Mii costumes - who aren't Assists. Bomberman was probably made a Mii for the same reason as most other Mii inclusions, and not because there's this invisible wall preventing them from making Assists playable.

Not to mention another thing: this whole argument also relies on acting like every character with an Assist is in the exact same situation, which is also blatantly untrue. Aside from their status in Smash, every character with an Assist is different - from different series, to different roles within their games, to different companies to different time periods since their last game came out. Bomberman is in a different position from Waluigi, who's in a different position from Isaac, and so on, and so forth. One being counted out does not automatically count out the rest, cause they're all in different positions aside from being assists.
Another thing to note is that none of the characters who are ATs would have been anymore likely to be DLC had they not been an AT as that status isn’t meant to signify that those characters aren’t “good enough” to be DLC, which is how some people who argue AT status disconfirms a character for DLC acts like. So no, Spring Man was never going to be DLC regardless of whether or not he was an AT.
 
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Ornl

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
598
Location
France
I don't see Space Invader becoming a Fighter because he would be a good Assist Trophy.
— Okay, but there are no new ATs. So what?

Space Invaders gets nothing. Square Enix already is represented by six owned series and Geno.
Wouldn't that be incomprehensible? SI is a major icon in video game culture, and the history of video games and Nintendo would have had another path without SI. Nothing in Ultimate represents Taito.

— SI gets nothing. Crono, Sora, Lara Croft and 2B are favorite.
— What happened about Geno is proof of what can happen about the favorites.
Hero already represents the heroes from fantasy-JRPGs. The fact that Lloyd is absent and that Sephiroth is present strongly confirm this point.
FP2 already has two 100% female characters and, recently, Lara Croft has already become a DLC in Brawlala and Fortnite, and 2B has already become a DLC in SoulCalibur VI.
For his part, SI would be the best original / unique / different / surprising / unexpected pick, because he would be the first:
• Gunner from DLC,
• 3rd-party rep from shooter game,
• 3rd-party Japanese toon from DLC,
• 3rd-party generic enemy,
• 197x rep...

— SI could get a Spirit Boards Event, like Tetris.
— Wouldn't that be reductive? SI is more important than this other retro shooter game in Ultimate: Galaxian, Ikari Warriors, King & Balloon, Sheriff, Sky Kid and Xevious.

— SI could get a Mii Costume (in another SE pack or a Reimu pack).
— As a Costume, SI could only be a hat, but wouldn't that be impossible? The DLC got Premium Costumes for Mii Gunner from the new series Undertale, Cuphead and Fallout. They are beautiful, so it would be strange that a 4th gunner from a new series could only be a hat.
 

Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,403
SI is just a sprite and probably one of their well known appearance so idk how the heck can you make him a fighter. Their movement is so limited that I bet Sakurai won't change his mind like he did to Pac-Man.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Hero
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Nelson340
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SI is just a sprite and probably one of their well known appearance so idk how the heck can you make him a fighter. Their movement is so limited that I bet Sakurai won't change his mind like he did to Pac-Man.
A lot of Ornl's posts are about how Space Invaders is popular. Just that. And how it needs to be the next subject of a challenger pack because of it.
 

Ornl

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
598
Location
France
SI is just a sprite and probably one of their well known appearance so idk how the heck can you make him a fighter. Their movement is so limited that I bet Sakurai won't change his mind like he did to Pac-Man.
I think SI has good moveset potential.
Possible Fighter abilities
• Evolving speed
: The Fighter speed would evolve with the timer.
Invasive aliens: The Fighter would be more or less powerful and resistant depending on his ability to minions spawning, and the enemies may be faced with their flood and harassment.
Multiple Fighter: The fighter would have multiple bodies with separate hitboxes.

Possible special attacks
Neutral B
: Laser Beam, with or whithout multiple shots or directions.
• Side B: Rush (round trip), by the Fighter or one of the minions.
• Up B: UFO.
• Down B: Spawn of an alien / Switch tactical formation.
 

SharkLord

Smash Hero
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Jun 20, 2020
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Pangaea, 250 MYA
Today, I've discovered two things that really grind my gears.

One people who just say "(x) is more iconic than (y)," while not explaining why they're more iconic and ignoring any counterarguments. It makes them seem extremely arrogant and biased, and basically props up their character at the expense of others.

Second, people who keep trying to argue against something when nobody else is even arguing against them. They get too stuck on one specific thing, often to the point that they're bringing it up more than those they're disagreeing with. Though, this one's a bit more understandable; Speaking from personal experience, it's easy to mentally write out scenarios that villainize those who disagree with you, because that way it's easier to argue against them and feel assured of yourself. It's all about making sure you can tell that they're just your mental scenarios, and not project the mental argument onto the actual argument.
 

Perkilator

Smash Hero
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Apr 8, 2018
Messages
6,316
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New Orleans, LA
"There's always next game", when, you know
“The director wondered whether it’d be nice to have the successor to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate release in 10 years.”

Stop taking these words and treating them like possible fact.

Anyways, to contest the paranoia about Sora AGAIN:
 
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SharkLord

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“The director wondered whether it’d be nice to have the successor to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate release in 10 years.”

Stop taking these words and treating them like possible fact.

Anyways, to contest the paranoia about Sora AGAIN:
I dunno how much this one's gotten right, but if the only justification is just "We have info from a Disney rep" my instinct is to be kinda doubtful. I'm really hesitant on any sort of leakers or insiders without any credibility to their name.
 

DuskFleur

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 25, 2020
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Adding to the Sora discussion:

One worry I've seen a surprising amount of people have, in regards to Sora being in Smash, is the idea that it'll "open the floodgates" for Disney to buy out and subsequently ruin the entirety of Nintendo. Like...what??? I'm fairly certain that putting one video game character on loan for a crossover isn't going to automatically make Nintendo vulnerable to being devoured by Disney. I mean, you don't see Disney trying to buy out Square Enix, the people who helped make Kingdom Hearts alongside Disney themselves, right now, do you?

EDIT: Another point to add to the above: Sora's been included in a few Final Fantasy spinoffs iirc. And yet I've also seen people be afraid that Disney is going to "force Disney characters into Smash" as a price for putting Sora in the game. This didn't happen in the aforementioned FF spinoffs, of course, so it's all just pointless fear-mongering. Even IF Sora were to bring Disney content with him, my guess is that it'd probably just be the Disney Castle Trio as cameos or Spirits because of how they're important to the series as a whole. It'd be like how Dracula and Arsene are both based on public domain characters, but how they are in Smash is purely based on different video games' versions of them.
 
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Commander_Alph

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
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It'd be like how Dracula and Arsene are both based on public domain characters, but how they are in Smash is purely based on different video games' versions of them.
Actually it's really different from public domain character as for one we all know that Disney keep extending the years to prevent Mickey and the others going public domain for several decades and two, it's technically still the Disney character that we know but in different setting, there's one where they are Musketeers, Mickey in Fantasia where he became an apprentice and there's the Goofy movie. It's actually not odd for them to do this and it's also made by Disney themselves, but I get what you mean.
 
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SharkLord

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Not sure if I've talked about it here already, but it really irks me when people say "But they didn't add Heihachi, Geno, or Monster Hunter, so they wouldn't add Lloyd!" Every character has their own merits, draws, and reasons for inclusion; Lloyd is a big JRPG guy, Heihachi represents the 3D fighting game, Geno is a massive fan-favorite request, etc. When people try to use those characters as a point against Lloyd, it implies there's a pecking order of inclusion; That Lloyd is inherently lower on the list than other characters and if they can't be added, he won't.

It feels like a little kid knocking their sibling's ice cream out of their hands because they dropped theirs, and they're trying to make it "fair." I dunno, it feels like it's pushing a bias more than anything.

I'll also say that it's a little irritating when people insist Lloyd's Mii will definitely come back. I can see why someone would think it's likely to return, but after everything Smash has done, I find it hard to make a definitive statement about anything.
 

Michael the Spikester

Smash Obsessed
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Not sure if I've talked about it here already, but it really irks me when people say "But they didn't add Heihachi, Geno, or Monster Hunter, so they wouldn't add Lloyd!" Every character has their own merits, draws, and reasons for inclusion; Lloyd is a big JRPG guy, Heihachi represents the 3D fighting game, Geno is a massive fan-favorite request, etc. When people try to use those characters as a point against Lloyd, it implies there's a pecking order of inclusion; That Lloyd is inherently lower on the list than other characters and if they can't be added, he won't.

It feels like a little kid knocking their sibling's ice cream out of their hands because they dropped theirs, and they're trying to make it "fair." I dunno, it feels like it's pushing a bias more than anything.

I'll also say that it's a little irritating when people insist Lloyd's Mii will definitely come back. I can see why someone would think it's likely to return, but after everything Smash has done, I find it hard to make a definitive statement about anything.
I mean 39 of the Sm4sh Miis returning? Why would one get upgraded?

If each and every mii came back from the last game. Lloyd is certain to be last in line.

Not trying to damper your hopes but I just can't see him happening at this point given how far in we are regarding the miis from the past game.
 
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SharkLord

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I mean 39 of the Sm4sh Miis returning? Why would one get upgraded?

If each and every mii came back from the last game. Lloyd is certain to be last in line.


Not trying to damper your hopes but I just can't see him happening at this point given how far in we are regarding the miis from the past game.
I'm not saying he 100% will become a fighter, but I just can't say he 100% wont, either. We've gotten Joker after all other third-parties were old IPs with Nintendo connections, Banjo as our first Western third-party, Byleth as the sole first-party of FP2, etc. I just find it really difficult to make definitive statements in general when so many patterns have been broken. I can understand any hesitance surrounding Lloyd, but at this point I feel like saying anything is 100% absolute is taking a major risk.
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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As I've said before, to me, a ported Mii Costume coming over doesn't tell me the character is hard done. But soft done. The thing is, it's more about timing. I could see Lloyd being announced... but his costume coming over anyway.

Now, if it's updated to Premium? Definitely done. These are not quick ports, but an extra step.

That said, I do not think Geno is coming, nor do I think Lloyd would be if his costume was suddenly shown off. You can apply that to Heihachi too. The ones I question are Joker's costumes, since those were done well before Pass 2 could've been greenlit. Hero was discussed, and likely the Geno costume was originally for his group, but put in with Sephiroth instead due to new negotiations.
 

SharkLord

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Not really "criticism" per se, but I've seen a couple people suggest Reimu as a Mii Gunner costume, and uh... That's not really how it works.

Reimu's iconic item she's 99% going to have no matter what, be it as a Mii or a fighter, is her gohei. Said gohei is basically just a glorified bonking stick. She'd most likely be a Swordfighter, not a Gunner. The gohei's not a magic rifle, you know.
 
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