Try grabbing Armadas peach as IC, isn´t as easy as it seems, the ways of doing it seems to be with desynching.
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What is a Wobbling ban?
- Thread starter Grim Tuesday
- Start date
Lol. ICs vs Peach.
Obviously, everything is weighted based on character matchups.
Obviously, everything is weighted based on character matchups.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Peach is only 1 character.
Zone
Smash Champion
Maybe that's true If they just ment grabs in general but obviously they mean grabs with wobbling conditions.
True, almost forgot that IC´s are indeed 2 characters and therefore is broken due to desynching alone (even though noone plays on that level).
She is a very liable counter to that certain strategy(characters) and puff is way more centralizing with her rest(autowobbling in air, that can't fail) and (haven´t gotten there yet) ledgecamping
Beat!
Smash Master
I think you misunderstood him...
I thought that my statement would have implied getting grabs that allow for wobbling considering the thread and everything we have been discussing thus far, but I guess making that kind of assumption was silly and a vast overestimation.
Zone
Smash Champion
Texting ** correction for the last sentence
Sorry I wasn't clear with what I ment. I didn't mean to say thats what you ment(general grabs) I was just saying i believe getting grabs with ice climbers can happen quite often( general grabbing w/o wobbling) and can sometimes me miss understood that their landed grab would have been a
Wobble which it wouldn't have. I guess I'm saying their landed grabs that aren't wobble worthy sometimes make people auto-think that was a wobble opportunity just by grab count alone
Now that you quoted that and said that I realize how poorly I presented that I'm quick testing in this thread while working
Thanks for the clarification.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Rest =/= Wobbling
Rest is really high risk. If you miss, they get a free punish in any way they want. Even if they hit the rest they either survival DI and live with an extra 30% or DI sideways and come back and punish anyway. I don't even see Jiggs players bother going for rests anymore if they are down stocks because they won't want to rest and get fsmashed for a trade.
Wobbling is relatively safe because it's just a grab. If you miss you can get punished, but most of the rest punishes aren't fast enough to work on grabs. If you get the grab, you get a free kill and they can't DI or punish afterward.
Go watch some of Hbox's matches from Pound. Rest is anything BUT centralizing. It can turn the tide of matches pretty quickly, but only if the opponent is reckless. It's a lot easier to avoid getting rested all game (DI uthrows and hit your techs and you are usually good) than it is to avoid getting grabbed all game (don't miss L-cancels; if you don't have a shine you have to space everything; don't shield at the wrong time; don't miss techs; and way more stuff).
As far as ledge camping, WTF ledge camps and wins? No one good, certainly. People can ***** about how *** stuff on the ledge is (I do since I main Falco and play a Marth player 95% of the time), but at the end of the day the ledge isn't the best place to be for any matchup.
That being said, I don't bother banning Wobbling at my tournaments. Usually grabs would result in death anyway as long as they chain grab properly. You get a free smash for every grab as it is. I am pretty sure that's why most people hate wobbling. It made all the cool and difficult IC chain grabs obsolete and substituted it with an easy, simple pummel tilt combination. People can't DI out of correctly done handoffs and some other chain grabs depending on the character, but you don't hear them complain because the **** is actually hard. If ICs had no options out of grabs before wobbling, people would still think it's ***, but they wouldn't ban it because it would actually add something to their viability. Wobbling isn't broken because it's barely any better than their regular grabs. The fact that it's so much easier is why people hate it.
Zone
Smash Champion
My fault for being about as vague and general as I could get.Thanks for the clarification.
I was just trying to say why someone might think that way. Not to say your opinion is Wrong you're probably right, just opening the window of possibilityA few of them do tend to make it sound almost near impossible
Cactuar: IC mains have somebody they practice with that knows how to deal with their silly tricks. Most "easy" grabs from ICs are extremely avoidable when the opponent knows what they're doing. And grabs that meet the requirement for the infinite even more so.
It's funny really, because I've always thought that non IC players have characters that are much better at getting grabs and consequently *over*estimate how easy getting grabs is with them.
It's funny really, because I've always thought that non IC players have characters that are much better at getting grabs and consequently *over*estimate how easy getting grabs is with them.
A reasonable opinion on Smashboards? Are you a wizard
I'm referring more towards how you guys complain about other characters having better grabs. I rarely just get a grab in on my opponent. Usually, I combo or tech chase into it. When I play ICs, its the same thing.
Most of the time I'm playing against IC players, I end up laughing at the number of times I get tech chase dsmashed or tech chase ANYTHING NOT A GRAB. I mean really, in most situations you can land a dsmash, you could have successfully grabbed. Even then, at lower percents, a downsmash sends at a low angle and not terribly far, so its an easy tech chase to grab because of the enormous movement range provided by their WD.
I'm not basing my statement on my play with other characters. I'm basing my statement on my play with ICs.
Most of the time I'm playing against IC players, I end up laughing at the number of times I get tech chase dsmashed or tech chase ANYTHING NOT A GRAB. I mean really, in most situations you can land a dsmash, you could have successfully grabbed. Even then, at lower percents, a downsmash sends at a low angle and not terribly far, so its an easy tech chase to grab because of the enormous movement range provided by their WD.
I'm not basing my statement on my play with other characters. I'm basing my statement on my play with ICs.
EVEN FUNNIER is that I've thought the same thing and I always got pissed at Chu when he would never go for the easy grabs that fell into his lap.
Again though, I get these setups demoralizingly infrequently as people get experience against me. I've played entire sets against people where I just have to win without landing a meaningful grab.
Edit:
YOU CANNOT ELIMINATE YOUR TEXT SIR, I HAVE IT IMMORTALIZED IN QUOTES.
Very well. It has been replaced with the original text.
<3
Back when I was actually playing ICs frequently, over the long term I started to notice my creativity regarding approach/defense gradually decline until I would use one or two strategies the entire time I would play someone, despite being fully capable, in both tech skill and knowledge, of using many many more options. I've never really experienced that before with any other character.
Chu gets those setups more than any IC player I've seen, but it might also be a result of him NOT taking full advantage of them, as the person is not quite as hesitant to put themselves in a slightly more risky situation.
<3
Back when I was actually playing ICs frequently, over the long term I started to notice my creativity regarding approach/defense gradually decline until I would use one or two strategies the entire time I would play someone, despite being fully capable, in both tech skill and knowledge, of using many many more options. I've never really experienced that before with any other character.
Chu gets those setups more than any IC player I've seen, but it might also be a result of him NOT taking full advantage of them, as the person is not quite as hesitant to put themselves in a slightly more risky situation.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You can't DI out of hand-offs.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Sorry, typo. Obviously I meant "can't."You can't DI out of hand-offs.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The best way to avoid getting grabbed by ICs is to bait Nana off the stage with hotcakes and syrup. Then grab Popo so he can't save her.
ICs freeze glitch never should have been banned imo.
I would be funny if a ICplayer would use it against an opponent who has stock advantage, and DI until it´s impossible to KO, forcing to IC to lose XD
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
If people can figure out a rule to force IC players to death combo with it immiediately otherwise get DQ'd that's discrete and enforcable, then yea, go nuts.
As it stands, there's no way to stop it from being used as an infinite stall without banning it completely, so it gets banned, saavy?
I think it is a lot easier to enforce followup rules on freeze glitch than it is on wobbling.
Freeze glitch is legal.
If opponent SDIs outside of grab range intentionally, opponent automatically loses match.
If IC accidentally ices opponent, IC automatically loses.
If IC does not do damage to opponent in freeze glitch for a period of more than a few seconds, ICs forfeit match.
IC must regrab opponent once they reach 300+ percent, else ICs forfeit match.
Or
If ICs succesfully freeze glitch your character, you automatically lose that stock.
Freeze glitch is legal.
If opponent SDIs outside of grab range intentionally, opponent automatically loses match.
If IC accidentally ices opponent, IC automatically loses.
If IC does not do damage to opponent in freeze glitch for a period of more than a few seconds, ICs forfeit match.
IC must regrab opponent once they reach 300+ percent, else ICs forfeit match.
Or
If ICs succesfully freeze glitch your character, you automatically lose that stock.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Not quite perfect Cact.
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
It's 4am and I'm super tired and not really feeling like reading through this thread, but I think that a definition for wobbling should be pretty obvious if I understand it correctly.
Wobbling requires that you control nana and popo separately, right? The Ice climbers player has to press A to attack with popo, then press A AGAIN to attack with nana between the pummels from popo, right? So why not just have an input limit? Every time you press A, it has to correspond to a pummel from popo, you can't press A (or any other button combination, say down B) at a time when it won't cause popo to make another pummel. This will let ice climbers pummel but not wobble.
Though, for the record, I think that wobbling should be legal. But that isn't what this thread is about.
Wobbling requires that you control nana and popo separately, right? The Ice climbers player has to press A to attack with popo, then press A AGAIN to attack with nana between the pummels from popo, right? So why not just have an input limit? Every time you press A, it has to correspond to a pummel from popo, you can't press A (or any other button combination, say down B) at a time when it won't cause popo to make another pummel. This will let ice climbers pummel but not wobble.
Though, for the record, I think that wobbling should be legal. But that isn't what this thread is about.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Cool idea, now try enforcing that at a tournament.
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
At a practical level, no rule limiting what a person can do in-game is really enforcible when no one is watching. You pause the game and run over "oh noes this person just wobbled me DQ him." Then it's your word vs theirs.
But I think that my definition would hold up pretty well if there was an audience or a recording. You can easily see that someone would be pressing A more than they would need to in order to perform just pummels with popo. Of course, we'd be having the problem pro sports have with bad calls, but I've given you an actual, solid definition that pretty much covers wobbling, which I believe is what you were asking for in this thread.
EDIT: My rule needs to have the exceptions of inputs that break the grab, such as smashes and throws.
But I think that my definition would hold up pretty well if there was an audience or a recording. You can easily see that someone would be pressing A more than they would need to in order to perform just pummels with popo. Of course, we'd be having the problem pro sports have with bad calls, but I've given you an actual, solid definition that pretty much covers wobbling, which I believe is what you were asking for in this thread.
EDIT: My rule needs to have the exceptions of inputs that break the grab, such as smashes and throws.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I still don't quite understand your rule though... Are you saying that every time the IC player presses A in a grab, they have to pummel?
Because that doesn't stop Wobbling...
Because that doesn't stop Wobbling...
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=95566
My understanding of wobbling is based off this thread, so excuse me if I'm wrong.
Wobbling requires the player to perform the pummel, then perform an additional input to tilt or down B BEFORE THE NEXT PUMMEL INPUT to make it so that that the two climbers alternate their attacks.
My suggestion is, is that the inputs of the IC's player should be limited to JUST PRESSING A FOR THE PUMMEL. The IC's player than has to wait for popo to finish that pummel, and then is only allowed to press A a single extra time to make popo pummel again. No extra inputs to make Nana do something else before the pummel is complete, besides something that would end the grab such as a smash. No tilting the control stick to make nana tilt instead of grab. You can only press A at the rate that would make popo pummel like any other character with a single jab from nana at the same time. This should prevent any infinites.
My understanding of wobbling is based off this thread, so excuse me if I'm wrong.
Wobbling requires the player to perform the pummel, then perform an additional input to tilt or down B BEFORE THE NEXT PUMMEL INPUT to make it so that that the two climbers alternate their attacks.
My suggestion is, is that the inputs of the IC's player should be limited to JUST PRESSING A FOR THE PUMMEL. The IC's player than has to wait for popo to finish that pummel, and then is only allowed to press A a single extra time to make popo pummel again. No extra inputs to make Nana do something else before the pummel is complete, besides something that would end the grab such as a smash. No tilting the control stick to make nana tilt instead of grab. You can only press A at the rate that would make popo pummel like any other character with a single jab from nana at the same time. This should prevent any infinites.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
So... no pressing A while Popo is pummeling?
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
yes. You can't press A again (or anything else besides a throw or smash) until it would cause another pummel.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
That works except for the issue of accidentally pressing it.
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
Ok, we let people get one accidental press, which has to be a standard jab (no tilting, that's kinda hard to do accidentally, just take your freaking finger off the control stick)
I was actually going to put that in the last post but was too lazy to XD.
I was actually going to put that in the last post but was too lazy to XD.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You can't wobble with jabs without the control stick (requires jab cancelling), so no worries.
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
Ok, so then it's even easier... Just limit people to pressing the A button unless they're smashing or throwing... I don't see why this was hard. (Still don't think wobbling should be banned at all)
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Must have been pretty hard if you are the first person to suggest it in 16 pages.
So, yeah, this thread can be locked now and any pro-wobbling ban TOs should replace the "Wobbling is banned" rule.
So, yeah, this thread can be locked now and any pro-wobbling ban TOs should replace the "Wobbling is banned" rule.
Beat!
Smash Master
You want to ban pummeling?
slartibartfast42
Smash Lord
No. I mean that they can ONLY press A. Not that they can't press A. LOL.