What is a Wobbling ban?

[Grim Tuesday]

Ooooooh snap Rene, you got me good.

 

[Roneblaster]

oh boy did i. im so clever, i follow in the footsteps of a wise man.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ah, you are learning quickly.

But it wouldn't be appropriate to suggest that I am a wise man, for I have learnt many wise things from you.

Spoiler

Namely, randomly pausing in the middle of matches, over-kill and destroying shy-guys, but still.

Aren't you supposed to be watching StarCraft, anyway? o_O

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

i can have fun with the quote button too.



all actions that fall under the conditions are banned.

im not banning an idea
im banning those actions

Ok, then taken strictly, I blizzard prior to throwing my opponent.

I dsmash/fsmash while nana is holding my opponent.


Both can't be escaped during the action, both involve both climbers, neither do a throwing motion, is that really the least intrusive option? Is it worth banning wobbling to make ICs essentially powerless in competitive play?

 

[Roneblaster]

ok you win on paper. again heres how much i care about winning the battle on paper:
...............................................

ill be over in the land of common-sense where i can differentiate between wobbling and not wobbling.

 

[adumbrodeus]

ok you win on paper. again heres how much i care about winning the battle on paper:
...............................................

ill be over in the land of common-sense where i can differentiate between wobbling and not wobbling.

But it's a TO's JOB to have rules that "win on paper", not doing so is irresponsible and opens up the community and the TO personally to liability. I'm sorry, but if it involves money it's serious business and we can't afford to have the community continue to take this lack-luster approach to how it deals with what are essentially contracts.

 

[Roneblaster]

i can assure you, that you would not be welcome at a tourney run by most anti-wobbling TO's with this ****. you can either:
ask the TO what is legal, and honor what they desire

or

you can leave.

its very clear

it has been clear for years

you arent special

you haven't brought anything new to the table.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Reneblade, assuming you were the TO, would I be allowed to:

Pummel > Blizzard > Pummel > Ftilt > Pummel?

 

[Roneblaster]

no, i would warn you. then if u did it again you would lose the match. if u did it again you'd be done.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Would I be allowed to Pummel > Blizzard > Ftilt?

 

[adumbrodeus]

i can assure you, that you would not be welcome at a tourney run by most anti-wobbling TO's with this ****. you can either:
ask the TO what is legal, and honor what they desire

or

you can leave.

its very clear

it has been clear for years

you arent special

you haven't brought anything new to the table.

No, I haven't, that's the sad thing. People will continue following the same old patterns not bothering to consider the potential minefield till it explodes in somebody's face.

 

[Roneblaster]

id warn you

@adumb

it wont happen because:

1. People are generally agreeable
2. you can be kicked out of the venue for being insubordinate
3. very very few people are as big a douchebag about this as "the word for word letter of the law says", people revert to this tactic almost exclusively when they know that the intention of a rule and the wording are different.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Am I allowed to Pummel > Ftilt > Pummel, then?

 

[Stratford]

I have a large vocabulary, so sue me.

I don't think he was concerned that "sedgeway" and "collinary" are advanced words. I think he was concerned that they're not words at all.

 

[Roneblaster]

no, thats one of the forms of wobbling i referred to as "atleast 3" way back when

@ grim

ill accept ur FR when u change ur sig.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Alright, I've changed it.

So... you would only accept the IC player hitting the opponent twice while they are in a grab?

 

[adumbrodeus]

id warn you

@adumb

it wont happen because:

1. People are generally agreeable
2. you can be kicked out of the venue for being insubordinate
3. very very few people are as big a douchebag about this as "the word for word letter of the law says"

Only takes one.

You may not like it, but taking precautions ultimately protects the community in the long run.

 

[Roneblaster]

thats 3 moves.


or adumb

people could just not be douchebags.

it doesnt matter because if the tourney says no wobbling, and you get thrown out for doing something that looks like wobbling. you're ****ing done. no1 will care about it, people will be happy to see the rules enforced.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know... That's why I asked if you were fine with two...

 

[Roneblaster]

if you throw them after the 2nd move, its fine.

 

[adumbrodeus]

thats 3 moves.


or adumb

people could just not be douchebags.

it doesnt matter because if the tourney says no wobbling, and you get thrown out for doing something that looks like wobbling. you're ****ing done. no1 will care about it, people will be happy to see the rules enforced.

Wait, you believe in a world where people won't be douchebags?


Reality is that **** happens, and we have a number of examples from pure greed (snes) to stupid mistakes (pound V) to show why the community needs to protect itself and take a mature view on this.

Why not protect itself? Honestly?

 

[Roneblaster]

no i fully expect people to be douchebags.

so dont get upitty or surprised when some1 douches you back.

your argument:
"its ok if i'm a douchebag, but its not ok if you do douchebag things back to me"

while its what people will think, it doesnt matter what they think it matters what the outcome is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Alright, cool.

Opponent is at 15% (roughly the percentage that Wobbling starts working at).

1. Grab
2. Blizzard (13%)
3. Utilt (11%)

Opponent is at 39%.

1. Dthrow (6%)
2. SH Dair (9%) - They can escape here if they see it coming, know what they are doing, are fast enough and aren't read by the IC player. Can be mixed up with reverse dair or utilt > re-grab.
3. Grab

Opponent is at 54%.

4. Blizzard (12%)
5. Fully-charged Fsmash (19%)

Opponent is either at 85% and off-stage, dead, or escaped from the grab (letting you re-grab for even more damage and a guaranteed kill, pretty much).

What exactly is the point of a Wobbling ban again?

 

[Roneblaster]

shut up and do that instead?

also

the other options do not effect whether or not wobbling is ban-worthy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well I will, I was just making sure that you wouldn't DQ me via the "Wobbling is banned" rule.

 

[Roneblaster]

ill DQ you as soon as you step in the door so we can hang out and talk about wobbling instead of playing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

<3333333333333333333333

 

[Roneblaster]

<333333333333

going to bed now. GSL isnt working for me right now. anyone else having problems with the GOM website and or the GOM Player?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I used more 3s, so I love you more.

 

[Roneblaster]

lol fine.

<33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Much better.

Goodnight, Reneblade.

 

[Roneblaster]

whoops, i got off without changing my sig back, i fixed it.

night for real this time.

 

[Redact]

how much % at most would you be getting out of just two pummels per grab?

looking for allow IC players to cg others, but also force the IC player to give the opponent sufficient chance to escape.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Two pummels per grab = 3%, I believe.

2 for the first, fresh, hit and 1 for the second, staled, hit.

 

[Redact]

this is with blizzard/tilts inbetween if done well. How much % all up before next grab?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICE CLIMBERS MOVESET DAMAGE:
Jab (First Hit) = 1-2%
Jab (Second Hit) = 3-4%
Ftilt = 4-8%
Dtilt = 2-5%
Utilt = 1-11%
Blizzard = 1-13%
Pummel = 2-3%
Fthrow = 6-11%
Dthrow = 4-6%
Bthrow = 4-7%
Uthrow = 6-11%
Dash Attack: 5-9%
Fsmash = 7-19%
Dsmash = 6-16%
Usmash = 6-15%
Nair = 4-8%
Fair = 4-10%
Bair = 6-12%
Dair = 4-9%
Uair = 3-9%
Ice Block = 2-3%
Ice Shot Hammer Swing = 5-10%
Squall Hammer = 2-18%
Belay = 8-16%

Bolded the ones that matter for Wobbling.

Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt and Blizzard are inescapable if used in-between Pummels.

 

[Wobbles]

The reason we need absolute clarity on these rules is because one of the tenets of any decent player is to maximize advantages wherever possible. If you tell me that four hits in a grab are illegal, I will do three before attempting a regrab. I will also ask you exactly what constitutes "hits," whether that's four pummels, two pummels + two tilts, etc. The reason being, I need to know exactly what is legal and illegal for me to perform in case anybody mistakenly calls me on it. Or intentionally calls me on it to get me to lose because their buddy is playing against me. This has happened to me before, and thanks to the TO's clarity on the subject I was able to tell them that I was permitted three tilts before throwing and avoided a DQ.

This moves us to the next point though: fairness. What exactly makes three tilts more fair than four? The amount of damage? But if more damage is unfair, then how is three more fair than two? And how is this fair to the IC players who are just trying to play their character? You know, all five of us.

Why bother arguing this? Because as any sensible tournament player would, I want to know exactly what is permitted of me while I play, and obviously I want it to be as beneficial to myself as possible while retaining the integrity of the competition. Operating from the perspective that it's banned, I want to do everything conceivable to maximize damage output from my grabs due to their rarity at high level play, and I certainly don't want to overstep that boundary because given I'm never a crowd favorite, nobody will give a **** if I'm DQ'ed on a dumb technicality because they never wanted me in finals anyhow.

Well, I would give a ****, obviously. So while YOU don't care about this technicality, and 99.99% of tourney players don't care, I do. And if you are telling me that I and the people who also use my character don't matter from a rules perspective, then I'm afraid we need to take your arguments as invalid.

*

Status quo argument is invalid here, by the way. If you want, we can do a time warp and pretend we are years ago when it WASN'T banned, when all the arguments were identical, and we could flip it to say "give us proof it's banworthy because status quo etc." And as you've lamented, we'd be bringing nothing to the table, except you would be the one needing to offer proof. But the people sharing your viewpoint magically got your way somehow. The number one most powerful, most ubiquitous, and most ACCEPTED reason for its ban, in a community full of people who claim that playing to win and no johns are the primary philosophies, and that the game is robust and open to a variety of strategies and is still competitive and growing, is that it's gay and we don't want to deal with it.

As Tony the Tiger would say, that's

Spoiler

****ed up.

 

[Roneblaster]

Just act like ur playing marth vs spacies. Grab, pummel once or twice, throw, grab repeat.

Go get in ur time machine rob, ill be here in this world where wobbling is banned and you guys have to given us legit reasons to unban it. we arent some devious *******s who hate you personally or let our opinion of your extremely gay character affect our integrity as people. If you convinced me that wobbling isnt banworthy, i would admit as much.

But in probably wont happen because i place more value in my opinion than i do in yours.

PS i actually do root for you to do well, i wish for pioneers to succeed.

 

[JPOBS]

I only read these threads when wobbles posts.

the last 2 sentences reneblade's post made my day though.

 

[Roneblaster]

Everytime jpobs posts, it makes my day.