What do melee falcon players think of PM Falcon?

[MVP]

What do you guys think of PM falcon compared to melee falcon? (Hax$, Scar, etc.............Falcon mains in general)

 

[RFrizzle]

I'm not a top falcon but it feels like I'm always nairing straight through people.

 

[MrM]

Yeah my nairs dont work either
think im doing it wrong tho

 

[MVP]

I feel he's not as "aggressive" as melee. I also agree it seems like his nairs go threw people

 

[Ace55]

I nair like a madman but I haven't really noticed that problem. However other things throw me off a bit. Like the extra frame to shorthop making me miss my fulljump and the lack of auto gentleman on whiff (PAL specific issue). Also lots of suicides when I try to do walljump shenanigans.

Side-b grabbing the ledge and aerial Falcon Kick being viable to get to the ground are nice though. And can't forget taunt cancelling. Also in his favor is the big increase of viable fatties and floaties.

All in all he feels a ton better to play than in 2.1.

 

[MVP]

Also lots of suicides when I try to do walljump shenanigans.

I totally agree 100% PM walljump mechanics are not melee. They're very different and it throws of my edgeguard. I hate that, but everything makes him really solid. I also feel he's not as fast as melee yet too. In terms of aerial speed and ground speed.

 

[BTmoney]

His tech roll is extremely slow and short imo

 

[G13_Flux]

i know he has always had that awful techroll. that carried over from melee. The biggest thing im surprised about with falcon is that other than his raptor boost grabbing the ledge, he hasnt recieved a single buff.. like peach got a couple good buffs, marth and jiggs even sorta did too with the addition of DACUSing. but for a character below all of them in teir level, he really didnt get worked on at all. The closest one to him on the melee teir list thats in PM so far is ganon, and he got several good buffs.

regardless, i feel that nair doesnt lead into a grab as much as it did in melee. tat move definitely feels off.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

i also have an issue with his nair sometimes as well and i agree that he isnt aggressive as he was in melee but the game's still incomplete so im hoping he will be almost exactly like he was in melee when the game is in its completion

 

[G13_Flux]

something else, his JC grab definitely doesnt slide as far. i feel that kinda goes for everyone too.

are we missin somethin? CF should be the same as he was, didnt they port over the pac files? i feel that a lot of people have noticed differences but its hard to say whats going on.

 

[MVP]

something else, his JC grab definitely doesnt slide as far. i feel that kinda goes for everyone too.

are we missin somethin? CF should be the same as he was, didnt they port over the pac files? i feel that a lot of people have noticed differences but its hard to say whats going on.

Well in my opinion, CF is a character of momentum and "feeling the flow." When you feel good, your game is good. So when i'm playing PM falcon and he doesn't feel right it throws of my game.

 

[prisoner]

falcon kick got a buff, Flux (for what it's worth).

personally, I don't think he needs any more tools... well, actually, his raptor boost doesn't go through projectiles any more, does it (does it?)? that would be nice. and does anyone know if he retained his nipple spike?

 

[MonkUnit]

he still has the nipple spike

 

[ss118]

I feel like falcon just doesn't work properly. It probably has to do with his nair, like everyone suggested.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

Dair > fair all day

and holding the utaunt button for knee justice

 

[SpiderMad]

something else, his JC grab definitely doesnt slide as far. i feel that kinda goes for everyone too.

ORO was talking about that last tournament I was at, he's a Melee falcon main. He didn't say everyone had a less slide from JC grab though, so I guess it's not just CF then. Was the less slide an intentional thing to make dash grabs more used or something?

 

[SaixXIsaVII]

PM Falcon sux.
They need to fix his Nair. His Moonwalk doesn´t work as well as it should.
But i do like his improved Falcon Kick and his Air Pivot Falcon Punch. (That **** is crazzzzzy! Try it! RIGHT NOW! GOOOOO!)

 

[Spiffykins]

PM Falcon sux.
They need to fix his Nair. His Moonwalk doesn´t work as well as it should.
But i do like his improved Falcon Kick and his Air Pivot Falcon Punch. (That **** is crazzzzzy! Try it! RIGHT NOW! GOOOOO!)

I love how all the Melee players are going crazy over b-reversal.

 

[OSCA MIKE]

Because the reversal is badass

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I love how all the Melee players are going crazy over b-reversal.

It's a pretty good technique, seems (to me) really versatile, lol, the other thing that i love is his turnaround flacon pawnch, i'm still laughing my *** off becuase i changed directions like 5 times and i mind-gamed my friend into it

Right back to falcon not feeling like C. Falcon, besides falcon kick and his front b momentum thing, he feel's really slow and he seems heavier to me (this is purely me, but i'm guessing it's because of his model, it just seems alot bigger than melee falcon) and the slow part should be in part of the whole 1 frame lag thingy, actually that one frame has actually discourged me from playing PM at all, like i had this sudden urge to go back to melee at once, especially since practicing with falcon isn't the same (this goes for lot's of veterans) he feels clunky too.

Another thing i've noticed is his aerials, uair seems alot less effective for some reason, same goes with nair but nair feels like it isn't as good as melee nair where you grab off of it, and it doesn't feel like you even made contact with it for some reason, as if it was a phantom hit or something. Dair feels wierd and slow, and the beloved Knee still doesn't feel like a real Knee, it feels like a baby/junior Knee (my marth main friend said he has the same issue with math's tiped smashes, he doesn't feel it at all, although he said it could also because of the vibration of the control) i'm not sure, but i've guessed that it's either the sound effect (sounds like justice wasn't served) or PM's camera, i've noticed that PM's camera's don't shake or tremble as much as melee does, actually it barely moves at all.

The one aerial that seems alot better to me is Bair, i don't know why but it seems like it's alot more usefull, but that could also be because of all the light weight characters that he can face now, and the extra frame you have to know where to jump. I'm sure that when they reslove that one issue, it will change how the game feels by a milestone (like the controller lag fix).

On another note, His JC grab simply doesn't slide enough, not as much as melee, his wavedash feels useless because of how slow it is (or feels w/e) so yeah i'm seriously considering picking up melee again.

EDIT: I just noticed i said feel 13 times counting this edit lol

 

[greenblattsam]

He seems to not have the full nair hitbox that he had in Melee and the side b ledge grabbing will take some getting used to.

 

[erbanez]

An above post (it's late and I'm too lazy to quote, sorry) mentioned about Falcon being a rhythm character, and if you feel good, you play good.

I feel that playing him in rhythm means incorporating a LOT of different aspects, and to me, one of the biggest changes from Melee to P:M is the Nair's sound effects. It's kinda annoying and loud. Remember Pikachu's Brawl nair sound effect? That was an ear-bleeder and the P:M team fixed it for Demo 2.5b, I believe.

With that being said, I feel like a lot of what makes things feel "off" can be the sound effects. Granted, I'm sure hitboxes aren't EXACTLY like Melee, that's to be expected, but they are doing a great job.

Also, you can't properly stickywalk anymore. That bugs me.

 

[Oro?!]

PM Falcon is good. He has some noticeable buffs and deterrences directly from melee. With how much every other character got helped in comparison though, falcon will probably just remain "good". The character has 12 years of metagame, and PM doesn't change the fact that he loses handily to some of the most popular characters in Melee, as well as some of the new Brawl challengers for top tier.

Falcon in PM will continue to be a character with the potential to perform "brilliances" and 0-death the cast, while being subsequently easy to 0-death or edgegaurd as well. Falcon's flaws against a lot of the newer casts neutral game will give him numerous uphill matchups, but they will be by no means unwinnable.

Personally it isn't worth it for me to struggle through using Falcon as a tournament character in such a harsh environment in PM. I do know a lot about the character and would probably post here to help a lot of newer PM players, but most information can be found somewhere on the Melee Falcon threads. In regards to PM specific matchups, I do still play Falcon frequently in friendlies against high caliber PM opponents such as Metroid, Rat, Kirk, etc... so I will try to be helpful in that regard as well.

Sup PM Falcon boards.

 

[BRLNK88]

Falcon was already good in Melee, he doesn't need buffs.
But if his nair is as bad as suggested, they need to fix that. I actually feel like the knee is perfect now, but I don't play Falcon...

 

[Oro?!]

I don't think I said he needed buffs? All I was implying was that Falcon is a lower end viable character in Melee and with how characters get balanced in PM I would not be surprised if Falcon ends up in the lower end of mid tier. With how much more balanced the game is though, that isn't saying he is unusable at all...

 

[MVP]

The thing about PM is the tiers are closer together, so yes i agree we will be mid tier, they'll be close enough that he'll have the capability to win. Even though most of the time its an up-hill battle

 

[BTmoney]

PM Falcon is good. He has some noticeable buffs and deterrences directly from melee. With how much every other character got helped in comparison though, falcon will probably just remain "good". The character has 12 years of metagame, and PM doesn't change the fact that he loses handily to some of the most popular characters in Melee, as well as some of the new Brawl challengers for top tier.

My feelings exactly. However I think you were a tad harsh. I just wouldn't be going falcon against marth.

Really I think his improved up b (the way he can now grab the ledge) and side special recovery make him that much better.
Mario came up with a HUGE power creep so they may be competitive for that last slot in the upper echelon of characters. Same for Link. However Link is going to be the falcon slayer. Mark my words. Pick up a secondary lol.

I feel like falcon will stay where he is on the tier list as far as percentile goes but he will have some harder match ups against squirtle, link, and pikachu

I don't see pikachu moving up much or squirtle being higher than falcon. So basically Link is going to be a huge top tier threat and falcon will be the spot beneath him.

I don't buy the 30:70 falco match up at all btw I think that's pretty dramatic. 40:60


EDIT:

Like I said before his techroll is absolutely stupid, short, slow, and horrible lol why is it so bad?

 

[standardtoaster]

because melee

 

[Oro?!]

Falcon had the worst tech roll out of any viable character in Melee as well.

Characters that beat Falcon badly in 2.5- Fox/Falco/Sheik/Ike/Wolf/Sonic/Charizard

just from personal experience. I would be open to discussion on the Brawl newcomers and there might be some rough matchups that I missed. I just don't feel I have the experience against some other matchups to really judge fully.

Point being that Falcon has losing matchups with about 25% of the cast give or take a few characters. That is not a good place to be at from a viability standpoint, especially considering everyone knows what Falcon is capable of after 12 years.

 

[MVP]

Characters that beat Falcon badly in 2.5- Fox/Falco/Sheik/Ike/Wolf/Sonic/Charizard

and Link as well

 

[BTmoney]

because melee

I get being comparatively bad but I feel like it crossed into the threshold of being actually bad lol. It could be my eyes deceiving me but it looks bad.

So if falcon falls from grace what would you all or anyone suppose be done about it?
Falcon is the people's choice

Can someone speak on the Charizard vs Falcon MU I have no exp in that.
I posted on the wolf/falcon match up before and I now change my mind.
That has to be even. Wolf can handily out zone him on stages like FD and pokemon stadium1/2. But falcon can combo him hard and easily on those stages a la 1 grab or nair.

 

[Oro?!]

Charizard standing on top of Falcon can cover all 4 of his tech options with dsmash. In addition dsmash forces Falcon to tech until around 80%, at which point zard can use any of his plethora of high knockback moves to simply nudge falcon off of the stage. At this point zard can literally just nair while you try to recover until you die.

The neutral game is also hell vs Zard. Very small openings in his approach game, he has a good CC game, and a huge grab that can set up free tech chases. Zard has the 4th fastest run speed and bigger hitboxes than you that you cannot trade with.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Sonic has tons of priority. I'm pretty bad at the game, and so are my friends, but I've literally only been able to trade easily with knee. :x

People can prove me wrong though.

 

[Oro?!]

The problem vs Sonic isn't that his moves beat yours, just that you don't have a lasting hitbox to at least trade with while he is spinning. Knee is Falcon's longest lasting aerial, but the long startup makes it unreliable unless Sonic is rushing things.

Platforms are definitely your friend vs Sonic.

"Falcon can combo Wolf hard so it's got to be an evenish matchup"
This isn't true at all. Falcon has the ability to 0-death basically any character in the game, but he still loses matchups. Wolf presents a lot of similar problems as other spacies. Wolf has the ability to control the pace of the match similarly to Falco, while being able to leave Falcon helpless on the defensive front. While Wolf's combos might not be as BnB as Falco, he seems to have more ways to set up combos. Wolf also presents the problem that he has more range than Fox/Falco. It is definitely the "easiest" of the spacie matchups, but I don't think Falcon wins in any way.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

Wow, i didn't know Zard was actually that good vs Falcon, and Sonic is a real pain, especially since he doesn't have a good sex kick, although when i play him i tend to use d-tilt and it works wonders the first time, you can get a grab depending on the DI of course, but after that first time the sonic player won't just be spining around anymore, and i'm stumped on how to stop him without trading as well. Falcon vs Sonic on FD is hell, he has so much room, no platforms for you, and he outruns you as well, plus Falcon's recovery is too easy to intercept with Sonic's up-b.

On how to make him better, this is probably the biggest mystery for me out of any high-tier, i mean there is obvious things you could help peach/marth in, but Falcon would be wierd, i guess what i would do is make his d-tilt have a little more range and you could act a little faster out of it too, especially since the move is kinda situational, but idk, if anybody could iluminate me on this move i'd be grateful. The other thing i would tweak a bit would be his b-throw, it is so useless, apart from being a weak throw that sends you almost no where, it also has a good amount of end lag, so even if you wanted to just run off before they get to you again, you get punished which sucks.

 

[BTmoney]

Let me renege my previous statement. I was young and stupid.

So I will not defend my previous point because it was wrong, but the MU is looking to me like
45:55 (easiest of the spacies, falcon vs both fox/falco is 40:60) or possibly even for reasons I can't explain. Probably due to the lack of a wolf metagame.

If you wanted to improve falcon, which I want it, it seems like he needs substantially more priority on his nair. Too many characters are able to stop his primary (imo, since DD grab or DD whatever isn't always safe) approaching tool.

 

[Oro?!]

It's definitely possible that it will turn out to be even. Playing against a seasoned Melee player who knows the ins and outs of Falcon definitely will make it tricky though. Having 12 years of metagame can also be a hindrance since everyone knows what's to be expected.

I don't mean to come off as condescending or negative about the character, so if it happened like that then my bad. I haven't really taken the time to study the matchup so my experience with it is minimal. I've played it against Scythe and Chillindude, and they both messed me up pretty bad due to inexperience.

I don't really think Falcon is going to be getting any sort of buffs even through the games completion. The team seems adamant about leaving Melee high/tops as is (except Sheik). That being said I can't see any sort of buffs besides making his worse moves viable without making Falcon extremely polarizing and possibly broken.

 

[BTmoney]

Nah I understood you the first time lol it's fine. But I am pro improving nair. Possibly changing dtilt or a smash

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

the ntsc gentleman is ******** and unacceptable

 

[BTmoney]

the ntsc gentleman is ******** and unacceptable

While I think it's acceptable, it really is stupid.
I think Falcons will greatly appreciate the pal gentleman

I'd still take a better nair over that but I'd prefer to have both