gamer8
Smash Lord
What's with the R.O.B hate? He helped bring Nintendo back...
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What characters could you have gone without
- Thread starter firedragon_jing
- Start date
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Really, these are the characters I could have done without:
Jigglypuff- To this day, I still ask myself what posessed Sakurai to put him/her/it in the first game? In the actual games, it's overall significance is beyond laughable. Granted, Pikachu's just as bad in that respect but at least Pikachu can fall back on the anime and manga where it still plays a constant role unlike Jigglypuff who basically had minor cameos in seasons 2 and 3. Really, the only reason people like playing as it was because Rest was such a devestating move but now, like Samus's charge shot, it's been severally crippled. Jigglypuff has also been nerfed in a few other ways as well with the most glaring problem is that it's now the slowest character which adds insult to injury because it's still one of the lighest characters with Fox (I believe) being the only person who's lighter. The fact that Sakurai didn't even bother trying to incorporate the character into the SSE's plot further displays what a garbage character it is and was merely added for tradition's sake.
Ness- Don't get me wrong. I love this character to death and he was my main in Melee (and I plan to main him in Brawl as well) but the fact that Lucas is an improvement on nearly every aspect just flat out sucks. Really, Ness can almost be called obsolete when compared to Lucas and it doesn't help that he was made slower and how his Final Smash is much easier to dodge then Lucas's. Ness, you're a great character brimming with personality and charm but I would have rather had someone that brought something new to the table like Flint or Masked Man. Seriously, it's just unfair... (Don't even get me started on how Luigi pretty much runs circles around Mario now...)
Toon Link- The character premise in itself is great and worthy of representation but the fact that Sakurai and his staff did little to highlight his individuality is why I wish he had just stayed at home. Seriously, Toon Link was a character that had so much potential for uniqueness that was absolutely squandered. I wasn't expecting Toon Link to be 100% different but there were so many ways that he could have been made better. For example, why didn't Toon Link have the grappling hook instead of the hookshot? Why couldn't his final smash had been the Hurricane Slash (really, this would have made fans grin from ear to ear)? Why wasn't he given anything unique from the Windwaker or the Minish Cap? (Really, the Deku Leaf as his recovery would have been perfect.) Really, the problem with this is that Sakurai spent only three days deciding the roster and admitted that most of the characters were done by the beginning of 2006, about three months after production officially started. Really, some characters like this were the ones that suffered the most.
Wolf- What do you get when you create a character that has even less to work with then the two characters that he's basically based on moveset wise? Well... you pretty much get Wolf. No matter how much people try to deny it, Wolf is based off of Fox and Falco and he pretty had to be based on nessecity. That's a grand question, has Wolf ever even been outside his cockpit? I've played all 5 Star Fox games and I don't remember him ever being on foot, not even Assualt. Really, a lot about him is inspired more by Hollywood were-wolves and X-Man's Wolverine (which, terrifyingly enough, can also sum up a lot of his personality traits as well...) then anything actually seen in the Star Fox games. This was excuseable with Fox and Falco given the time both of them entered the franchise (at least they somewhat fought on foot in Star Fox 64; yes, I know they were robotic miniatures but still) but it hardly works with Wolf.
Really, when it comes down to it, Wolf is an evil version of Fox or at least that's what he was intended to be at his creation. Star Fox- Star Wolf... the cliche writes itself. Wolf, to give him credit, started to become more 3D personality wise in Assualt and Command but really the premise stayed the same: being the opposite of Fox in nearly every regard. I personally believe that this heavily contributes to why Sakurai didn't even bother to put him in the SSE's plot and why some things suggest that he was a character that didn't have too much thought attached to it. Really, my problem isn't nessecarily with Wolf himself but how Wolf was integrated into Smash Bros. It is rumored that Wolf was replaced by Falco and Wario by Dr. Mario in Melee because Sakurai believed that making them too much like their counterparts would be an insult their respective fans. Well... at least he succeeded with Wario. Really, in the end, Wolf ended up as a more savage version of Fox and Falco. (Which is strange because he's even more composed and tactical then Fox in the games but that's a whole different story.)
My final beef is how it's already become very apparent that Wolf is a high tier character along the other two Star Fox reps. Fox was slightly nerfed and so was Falco but then you have a character that compensates for a lot of their flaws and in the end is better then them. Nice... Once again, we have the Star Fox characters dominating the playing field and you know what that means; yep, that's right, all three will be grossly overused. Hate hearing the stereotype "Fox, no items, final destination?" Expect it to further increase in use in the following years...
*side note: I could have said a lot about Krystal but really, what's done is done and nothing will put her in the game. I do believe, however, that she will replace Wolf in the next installment based on a decent number of factors.*
ROB- Just like in real life, ROB's a gimmick in Brawl. His obscurity made him AT material at most but Sakurai felt obligated to add a WTF character like Mr. Game and Watch to Brawl. That's basically why he's in, shock value. From the all the game play videos and tournament footage I've seen, this clearly shows. Like Mr. Game and Watch, he's a character that's fun to play as a while but the fun eventually dies with most people when the character's flaws become more and more apparent. Even though it's only been almost a month since Brawl came out, it's very clear that ROB will not be a common face at tournaments and probably even less common on online play. Really, he's like a slinky; cool for awhile but then left in the toy chest for months on end afterwords because, let's face it, pushing something down the stairs is only entertaining for so long. What also annoys me about ROB is that nearly all his moves are based on robot cliches like lazers, jets, etc. It's cute in it's own regard like snowglobes but how many people spend a lot of time looking at just one? Even people who are obessed with them eventually move on to different ones.
The thing that most annoys me about this situation is that he's now being compared to Mr. Game and Watch in terms of importance to Nintendo. What kills me about this is that most of the people who push this belief are those who's faces twisted into death masks when the 35 character roster was revealed. With that said, it's been used to soften the blow. If you break your leg, put a cast on it. If ROB is playable in Brawl, make him larger then life. It's just that simple. Really, what's even more hilarious is that the person who started the movement *points a giant foam finger at... nah, it's either obvious or you're completely in the dark* derived their opinion almost word for word from an article that Gamespy wrote in 2002 and they even had the key phrase used to introduce the article in their sig. There's also the ROB dance video on You Tube to explain this. Funny but the fact that people are using it to justify ROB's addition is just plain sad. Really, regarding this issue, I think a reality check is in order:
ROB did not save video games. Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt did. ROB was packaged with the NES in North America for a little less then a year. It was used to get New York toy store owners to put it on the self so they could market it as a "toy" rather then a video game. They weren't stupid, they knew it was a video game but they thought the consumers would be fooled by it. Ironically, the consumers were just as aware. Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt were enormous hits in the arcades and this is what spurred sales more then anything else. If it had just been ROB with Stack-Up and Gyromite, the NES would have gone down in flames in North America. Really, the sales figures don't lie.
People often argue, "You only hate ROB because never owned one, lol." No, I haven't but unlike the 99% of the people who are lying through their teeth regarding this matter, I have actually played both Gyromite and Stack Up. Granted, it's been probably 14-15 years since I last played them I remember this much: they weren't much fun, were very simplistic, and became boring rather quickly. Nothing about it was very revolutionary and it's no wonder Nintendo dropped it all together it was obvious that they didn't need to pretend to be marketing something else.
My biggest beef is that he is often compared to Mr. Game and Watch who was basically Nintendo's first mascot, represented what was essentially Nintendo's first true console, and the world's first handheld system. Let's these points sink in for a bit... If reality isn't punching you in the face like a spring loaded boxing glove from a jack-in-the-box right now then you're completely lost. Significance wise, Mr. Game and Watch not only towers over ROB but every other Nintendo character except Mario. How can you realistically put ROB to that standard without having forcing out the words and feeling extremelly guilty for it afterwords? Really, I think Sakurai even tried to cover up the triviality of ROB's addition by making him one of the main focuses of the SSE and making them among some of the most common enemies in the game.
Yeah, these are basically my roster complaints in a nutshell.
Jigglypuff- To this day, I still ask myself what posessed Sakurai to put him/her/it in the first game? In the actual games, it's overall significance is beyond laughable. Granted, Pikachu's just as bad in that respect but at least Pikachu can fall back on the anime and manga where it still plays a constant role unlike Jigglypuff who basically had minor cameos in seasons 2 and 3. Really, the only reason people like playing as it was because Rest was such a devestating move but now, like Samus's charge shot, it's been severally crippled. Jigglypuff has also been nerfed in a few other ways as well with the most glaring problem is that it's now the slowest character which adds insult to injury because it's still one of the lighest characters with Fox (I believe) being the only person who's lighter. The fact that Sakurai didn't even bother trying to incorporate the character into the SSE's plot further displays what a garbage character it is and was merely added for tradition's sake.
Ness- Don't get me wrong. I love this character to death and he was my main in Melee (and I plan to main him in Brawl as well) but the fact that Lucas is an improvement on nearly every aspect just flat out sucks. Really, Ness can almost be called obsolete when compared to Lucas and it doesn't help that he was made slower and how his Final Smash is much easier to dodge then Lucas's. Ness, you're a great character brimming with personality and charm but I would have rather had someone that brought something new to the table like Flint or Masked Man. Seriously, it's just unfair... (Don't even get me started on how Luigi pretty much runs circles around Mario now...)
Toon Link- The character premise in itself is great and worthy of representation but the fact that Sakurai and his staff did little to highlight his individuality is why I wish he had just stayed at home. Seriously, Toon Link was a character that had so much potential for uniqueness that was absolutely squandered. I wasn't expecting Toon Link to be 100% different but there were so many ways that he could have been made better. For example, why didn't Toon Link have the grappling hook instead of the hookshot? Why couldn't his final smash had been the Hurricane Slash (really, this would have made fans grin from ear to ear)? Why wasn't he given anything unique from the Windwaker or the Minish Cap? (Really, the Deku Leaf as his recovery would have been perfect.) Really, the problem with this is that Sakurai spent only three days deciding the roster and admitted that most of the characters were done by the beginning of 2006, about three months after production officially started. Really, some characters like this were the ones that suffered the most.
Wolf- What do you get when you create a character that has even less to work with then the two characters that he's basically based on moveset wise? Well... you pretty much get Wolf. No matter how much people try to deny it, Wolf is based off of Fox and Falco and he pretty had to be based on nessecity. That's a grand question, has Wolf ever even been outside his cockpit? I've played all 5 Star Fox games and I don't remember him ever being on foot, not even Assualt. Really, a lot about him is inspired more by Hollywood were-wolves and X-Man's Wolverine (which, terrifyingly enough, can also sum up a lot of his personality traits as well...) then anything actually seen in the Star Fox games. This was excuseable with Fox and Falco given the time both of them entered the franchise (at least they somewhat fought on foot in Star Fox 64; yes, I know they were robotic miniatures but still) but it hardly works with Wolf.
Really, when it comes down to it, Wolf is an evil version of Fox or at least that's what he was intended to be at his creation. Star Fox- Star Wolf... the cliche writes itself. Wolf, to give him credit, started to become more 3D personality wise in Assualt and Command but really the premise stayed the same: being the opposite of Fox in nearly every regard. I personally believe that this heavily contributes to why Sakurai didn't even bother to put him in the SSE's plot and why some things suggest that he was a character that didn't have too much thought attached to it. Really, my problem isn't nessecarily with Wolf himself but how Wolf was integrated into Smash Bros. It is rumored that Wolf was replaced by Falco and Wario by Dr. Mario in Melee because Sakurai believed that making them too much like their counterparts would be an insult their respective fans. Well... at least he succeeded with Wario. Really, in the end, Wolf ended up as a more savage version of Fox and Falco. (Which is strange because he's even more composed and tactical then Fox in the games but that's a whole different story.)
My final beef is how it's already become very apparent that Wolf is a high tier character along the other two Star Fox reps. Fox was slightly nerfed and so was Falco but then you have a character that compensates for a lot of their flaws and in the end is better then them. Nice... Once again, we have the Star Fox characters dominating the playing field and you know what that means; yep, that's right, all three will be grossly overused. Hate hearing the stereotype "Fox, no items, final destination?" Expect it to further increase in use in the following years...
*side note: I could have said a lot about Krystal but really, what's done is done and nothing will put her in the game. I do believe, however, that she will replace Wolf in the next installment based on a decent number of factors.*
ROB- Just like in real life, ROB's a gimmick in Brawl. His obscurity made him AT material at most but Sakurai felt obligated to add a WTF character like Mr. Game and Watch to Brawl. That's basically why he's in, shock value. From the all the game play videos and tournament footage I've seen, this clearly shows. Like Mr. Game and Watch, he's a character that's fun to play as a while but the fun eventually dies with most people when the character's flaws become more and more apparent. Even though it's only been almost a month since Brawl came out, it's very clear that ROB will not be a common face at tournaments and probably even less common on online play. Really, he's like a slinky; cool for awhile but then left in the toy chest for months on end afterwords because, let's face it, pushing something down the stairs is only entertaining for so long. What also annoys me about ROB is that nearly all his moves are based on robot cliches like lazers, jets, etc. It's cute in it's own regard like snowglobes but how many people spend a lot of time looking at just one? Even people who are obessed with them eventually move on to different ones.
The thing that most annoys me about this situation is that he's now being compared to Mr. Game and Watch in terms of importance to Nintendo. What kills me about this is that most of the people who push this belief are those who's faces twisted into death masks when the 35 character roster was revealed. With that said, it's been used to soften the blow. If you break your leg, put a cast on it. If ROB is playable in Brawl, make him larger then life. It's just that simple. Really, what's even more hilarious is that the person who started the movement *points a giant foam finger at... nah, it's either obvious or you're completely in the dark* derived their opinion almost word for word from an article that Gamespy wrote in 2002 and they even had the key phrase used to introduce the article in their sig. There's also the ROB dance video on You Tube to explain this. Funny but the fact that people are using it to justify ROB's addition is just plain sad. Really, regarding this issue, I think a reality check is in order:
ROB did not save video games. Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt did. ROB was packaged with the NES in North America for a little less then a year. It was used to get New York toy store owners to put it on the self so they could market it as a "toy" rather then a video game. They weren't stupid, they knew it was a video game but they thought the consumers would be fooled by it. Ironically, the consumers were just as aware. Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt were enormous hits in the arcades and this is what spurred sales more then anything else. If it had just been ROB with Stack-Up and Gyromite, the NES would have gone down in flames in North America. Really, the sales figures don't lie.
People often argue, "You only hate ROB because never owned one, lol." No, I haven't but unlike the 99% of the people who are lying through their teeth regarding this matter, I have actually played both Gyromite and Stack Up. Granted, it's been probably 14-15 years since I last played them I remember this much: they weren't much fun, were very simplistic, and became boring rather quickly. Nothing about it was very revolutionary and it's no wonder Nintendo dropped it all together it was obvious that they didn't need to pretend to be marketing something else.
My biggest beef is that he is often compared to Mr. Game and Watch who was basically Nintendo's first mascot, represented what was essentially Nintendo's first true console, and the world's first handheld system. Let's these points sink in for a bit... If reality isn't punching you in the face like a spring loaded boxing glove from a jack-in-the-box right now then you're completely lost. Significance wise, Mr. Game and Watch not only towers over ROB but every other Nintendo character except Mario. How can you realistically put ROB to that standard without having forcing out the words and feeling extremelly guilty for it afterwords? Really, I think Sakurai even tried to cover up the triviality of ROB's addition by making him one of the main focuses of the SSE and making them among some of the most common enemies in the game.
Yeah, these are basically my roster complaints in a nutshell.
It's not characters I could do without, just cloned movesets. Luigification is the new cloning, and I wish falco, wolf, Lucas, and Ganon would have gotten some more creativity. Toon Link is fine as a link clone, because they pretty much are the same, but he needed his own final smash, there were so many possibilities there.
This isn't a "Who deserves to be in" thread, it's "who can you go without," as in who will you never play with unless forced to?
ROB, Toon Link, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Game & Watch, Pikmin & Olimar (why are they named first?), Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Luigi, and Ice Climbers.
ROB, Toon Link, Wolf, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Ness, Lucas, Game & Watch, Pikmin & Olimar (why are they named first?), Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Luigi, and Ice Climbers.
Because Olimar & Pikmin sounds just silly.
No stupider than the former. They could have just gone with Olimar or Captain Olimar or something.
Blaze the cat
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2007
- Messages
- 164
There's another really bad argument I see over and over again here. You can form an opinion about something without personally experiencing it. If I said, "Drinking gasoline is bad for you," would you say, "Have you actually tried drinking it?"
Elidibus
Smash Cadet
I can do without Toon Link. Replace that one with Dr. Mario
I don't need Lucas. (earth...what?) or Ness for that matter.
I didn't need R.O.B, but i don't want him taken out either.
Everyone else fits pretty good. Take out Lucas and Ness and put in Krystal and...someone else.
I don't need Lucas. (earth...what?) or Ness for that matter.
I didn't need R.O.B, but i don't want him taken out either.
Everyone else fits pretty good. Take out Lucas and Ness and put in Krystal and...someone else.
Tank McCannon
Smash Journeyman
5. Captain Falcon
4. Pit
3. Sheik
2. Marth
1. Zero Suit Samus
4. Pit
3. Sheik
2. Marth
1. Zero Suit Samus
In Assualt
Wolf was a playable character in the VS. mode once you were able to unlock him
So he was out of his Cockpit =D
The only problem I have with the roster is TOON LINK.
Could of found a better replacement everyone else I am fine with
tafutureboy
Smash Ace
Mario, lol
firedragon_jing
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2007
- Messages
- 604
bring Nintendo back???
when R.O.B. came out, Nintendo hadn't even started outside of the arcades and Japan. All R.O.B. did was break the barrier of the failed idea of a home video game console after the failure of the Atari, Intellivision, and Odyssey. If you asked me, Nintendo would have made it in the home console market in the States anyways because of the success of Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. in the arcades.
Like many people, I bought my NES without R.O.B., or even knowing of R.O.B.s existence. I didn't even find out about him till I played Wario Ware for my GBA.
shellblade
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2007
- Messages
- 65
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
R.O.B the pile of trash >.> who would have thought a flunk of a machine that no one ever liked (if you dont know he is actually some robot they made but no one bought it) made it into brawls and mario kart ds. I wonder what nintendo was thinking mabye they were trying to re-hype him XD
firedragon_jing
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2007
- Messages
- 604
Looking over most the responses, R.O.B. is getting a lot of hate... which I think he's entitled to...
I agree most people are trying to boast him to get over him being included, but it makes me question Sakurai's judgment, and just adds to my feelings that he shouldn't be directing SSB4
I agree most people are trying to boast him to get over him being included, but it makes me question Sakurai's judgment, and just adds to my feelings that he shouldn't be directing SSB4
JNS
Smash Cadet
Wolf
Toon Link
Lucario (i prefer mewtwo)
R.O.B
Lucas
Toon Link
Lucario (i prefer mewtwo)
R.O.B
Lucas
pirkid
Smash Lord
B.O.B (Plusle and Minun would have been kickarse.)
Woof(DOWANT Blue Furry.)
EDIT: ZOMG 666.
I'd like to thank the Vatican.
Woof(DOWANT Blue Furry.)
EDIT: ZOMG 666.
I'd like to thank the Vatican.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
As I said beforeThat's a lie and you know it!
R.O.B. saved video games...
what did toon link do?
Turn the legend of Zelda to a fruity little kids game...
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
**** Swf.....
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
**** SWF Part 2...
firedragon_jing
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2007
- Messages
- 604
Triple post... and R.O.B. did not single handedly save video games, if he had, it would be him being the most recognized icon instead of Mario. Shigeru Miyamoto saved video games. R.O.B. was trashed after 1 year of being packaged together with the NES, people wanted the video games and not R.O.B., and it was only to break the barrier of failed American consoles prior to it in New York
Nintendo would have prospered with-out R.O.B., especially in Japan.
I could get behind losing those characters. I think Snake could also be dropped and I wouldn't cry.
Croco
Smash Lord
Falco & R.O.B.
Darkslash
Smash Master
Jigglypuff and sonic
Flame shield up
Flame shield up
firedragon_jing
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2007
- Messages
- 604
I kinda like Snake, mainly because I knew of his importance back on the NES, and the fact Kojima begged for him to be included. Snake opened the doors to 3rd parties, which allowed Sonic to be a character. While I think Smash is a series better suited to stay as Nintendo and a tribute to it's history, you can't deny the fact that many third parties helped Nintendo along the way reach it's over all greatness. Snake was around since Nintendo's first console, and Sonic the mascot of Sega helped push Nintendo with competition. I'm looking forward to more 3rd parties tributes in the smashes to come, but only if they play a good role in Nintendo's history, like Megaman, Crono, or even Geno...
Darkslash
Smash Master
Well even though Geno was in SMRPG, he and SMRPG did open the way not only for the Italian Plumber Bro's not only do sports,Party games,racing,puzzle,platforming games, and fighting games. But opened the World of Mario RPG's. Now we got Paper Mario and Mario&Luigi (the Spiritually successors of SMRPG:LotSS). But since Geno was in 1 game, and was a demented doll with a name only his people can pronounce, he should be on the bottom of the most needed Characters in Brawl( and there's 5 of them)
firedragon_jing
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2007
- Messages
- 604
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Geno supporter in any way, I didn't even beat SMRPG, I got kinda far into it, but I do think he would be a valuable character, just for the fact that he represents Mario's first step into the RPG world. Mallow did as well but he wasn't as well liked. Only appearing in one game didn't really stop Pit or the Ice Climbers... also the inclusion of an accessory and third parties broke the barrier for many characters. Geno made a cameo in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga. Geno was also a part of a Mario game, which gives him a little boost in third party characters.
That's the only reason I really justify Geno being a valuable character, that and having an opportunity for a unique moveset, and his popularity despite being playable in one game.
In terms of support I rather go with Megaman, for having his first 6 titles appear on the NES, and his first 3 X games on the SNES. I still think he would be a cool mix of Samus and Kirby if they stayed true to his old school self. But that's just me.
Qaszimon
Smash Rookie
Switch R.O.B. with Megaman.
Switch Lucario with Geno.
Perfect roster.
Switch Lucario with Geno.
Perfect roster.
iankobe
Smash Lord
Word. I mean just compare these two. Who'd really know what ROB is? What's the point of bringing back a "legendary" robot into a modern fighting game? Oh yeah. A freakin' robot can actually fight better than Toon Link!
Besides, Toon Link has a better fit than ROB anyway. Haha.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Right...
If you live in some kind of backward world...
Like Toon Link was really necessary for Nintendo...at all...
I'm sure no one heard of Link before Wind Waker...
iankobe
Smash Lord
LMFAO. You're right. They know Zelda. But not Link.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
How the hell would people not know who Link was before Wind Waker?
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
*slightly off-topic* How the heck do you have over 8000 posts?!
Cranberry Rogue
Smash Journeyman
I really wasn't a fan of R.O.B. when he was first announced. I've accepted his inclusion by now, but I honestly wouldn't care if he was dropped from the roster. The same goes for Toon Link. I like his cartoony bomb explosions, but...that's pretty much it, really.
iankobe
Smash Lord
Look man. I have nothing against ROB.
But you're talking about Brawl here. ROB never fought before and he isn't even supposed to be a fighter.
Bottomline, Toon Link fits better than ROB in brawl.
But you're talking about Brawl here. ROB never fought before and he isn't even supposed to be a fighter.
Bottomline, Toon Link fits better than ROB in brawl.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
No, Toon LInk doesn't fit at all and shouldn't have been added.
R.O.B. actually had an important part in Nintendo history and has been in MANY games...