What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Hippieslayer]

Regarding preset movesets, they are not needed for most all tournaments. Yes the movesets were bad, but they were created based on very little knowledge. Had customs been used more widely before the movesets had to be ready they would've been better. And if customs are used more widely they will be better. They, just like jankness of customs are an issue which stems from the fact that customs are not being used. A problem which will more or less go away if customs are used. I think Teshie brings up some good points. I too have thought about what would happen if Palutena -a garbage character without customs- got patched and made decent in default; would she then be completely OP with customs? Maybe. Its speculation, but still worth considering.Its true that customs do add more characters which function as gatekeepers, though I see them more as invalidating bad players rather than characters and I'm off the belief that overall there are plenty more viable characters with customs on.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ehh... Dark fist imo is borderline acceptable at best. I think it's kong cyclone level good, i.e dumb and demands heavy respect. (Don't whiff or misspace anything at all ever) It's just people don't complain about it, because it's more punishable and only applicable during kill percents. So they see it less often per match. (It's also somewhat awkward and hard to use properly, needs match-up specific knowledge on when it's applicable but not too much)

And it scales a LOT with rage, which ganon is often hovering in... So it kind of "rubberbands" ganon in all matchups in a somewhat unhealthy manner, I think. Unless you completely destroy ganon, you have an even MU with him because he dies at 140% and you die at 50%

Boss, Nairo, ChuDat, Seagull Joe, Gimr, and me consider custom ganon a top 10 candidate in customs for this reason. Even sheik has to cut her strings short as hell because he'll kill her if she tries a normally safe fair to extend the string.

 

[Kaladin]

Ehh... Dark fist imo is borderline acceptable at best. I think it's kong cyclone level good, i.e dumb and demands heavy respect. (Don't whiff or misspace anything at all ever) It's just people don't complain about it, because it's more punishable and only applicable during kill percents. So they see it less often per match.

And it scales a LOT with rage, which ganon is often hovering in... So it kind of "rubberbands" ganon in all matchups in a somewhat unhealthy manner, I think. Unless you completely destroy ganon, you have an even MU with him because he dies at 140% and you die at 50%

But it's still Ganon. I think it fits with his playstyle extremely well: get a hard read or good punish and they die. That's ganon.

(I do agree the rage scaling could be toned down though)

 

[DunnoBro]

But it's still Ganon. I think it fits with his playstyle extremely well: get a hard read or good punish and they die. That's ganon.

(I do agree the rage scaling could be toned down though)

I agree it's the perfect kind of move for him, but a little too extreme still.

It's a reactive tech chase option, meaning after a choke he doesn't need to YOLO smash or dash attack to catch them. If he ran the proper direction(or shielded/called the lay down), he can kill them that way.

It's also a reactive air dodge and roll punish, but his lack of mobility keeps it from being too relevant.

Without rage, it's killing around 70-90% which is fine imo. But with rage? 40-60? For the love of god, don't anger this man.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I agree it's the perfect kind of move for him, but a little too extreme still.

It's a reactive tech chase option, meaning after a choke he doesn't need to YOLO smash or dash attack to catch them. If he ran the proper direction(or shielded/called the lay down), he can kill them that way.

It's also a reactive air dodge and roll punish, but his lack of mobility keeps it from being too relevant.

Without rage, it's killing around 70-90% which is fine imo. But with rage? 40-60? For the love of god, don't anger this man.

Haha, all of this still sounds fine to me. And with respect to being a top 10 contender, you say that like it's an unacceptable placement. As though somehow, it's not fair for Ganon to be ALMOST top tier. Rage is a fine thing, but lest we forget, percents mean nothing to the King of Evil.

 

[DunnoBro]

Haha, all of this still sounds fine to me. And with respect to being a top 10 contender, you say that like it's an unacceptable placement. As though somehow, it's not fair for Ganon to be ALMOST top tier. Rage is a fine thing, but lest we forget, percents mean nothing to the King of Evil.

What makes it unhealthy imo is that you can win 80% of the game and lose because ganon got one dthrow string on you + a read or you doing something that would only be slightly unsafe in most other MUs because he can dark fist OoS or as a combo breaker.

It's like if rock smash killed at 70%. Same super armor timings, and general times they can be used imo... It's just more worth throwing out and demands more respect because of that.

Of course, characters who do everything off grabs or projectiles/spacing still destroy him. So it might be okay, I just think it's a little extreme. Kind of like brawl Dedede.

Personally, I'm fond of a set list that universally bans all custom upsecials, and certain other customs. Upspecials make up the majority of controversial customs by far. While I don't think they all NEED to be banned, I think a decision like this could be enough for others to be okay playing customs and eventually deciding "Hmm, you know maybe we should let dk have kong cyclone after all. He's pretty garbage without it"

 

[Macchiato]

1311. dins blaze is amazing edgeguarding tool. maybe im missing something about custom phantoms but i dont like them.

Din's blaze is horrible, what are you saying

1213 is her best set agreed by all Zeldas.

Flare lets her force an actual approach and it's faster with more range. It is as strong as max distance Din's Fire at every distance. It's also easier to sweet spot.

Phantom Strike is just a direct upgrade. More damage, faster charge, no deadzone.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Also to clarify my s


What makes it unhealthy imo is that you can win 80% of the game and lose because ganon got one dthrow string on you + a read or you doing something that would only be slightly unsafe in most other MUs because he can dark fist OoS or as a combo breaker.

It's like if rock smash killed at 70%. Same super armor timings, and general times they can be used imo... It's just more worth throwing out and demands more respect because of that.

Of course, characters who do everything off grabs or projectiles/spacing still destroy him. So it might be okay, I just think it's a little extreme. Kind of like brawl Dedede.

Well, you're right. But adaptation will lead to baiting the (super unsafe) combo breaker. And you can win 99% of the game against Ganon and still lose to a dthrow string to flame choke read even without customs. @Ray_Kalm has shown this on many occasions.

 

[DunnoBro]

To clarify my stance though, I only support customs if nintendo either patches them, and they become standard... Or we form a side meta and develop a pseudo-ban list by disallowing certain customs be submitted on sets.

It's clear as things are, they can't survive as standard without nintendo's intervention. Personally, I like the idea of both metas surviving though.

Well, you're right. But adaptation will lead to baiting the (super unsafe) combo breaker. And you can win 99% of the game against Ganon and still lose to a dthrow string to flame choke read even without customs. @Ray_Kalm has shown this on many occasions.

Yes, but dark fist has more applications and generally safer set-up than those. (Can't get much safer than shielding an attack)

I'll admit that adaptation could be a factor, but I'm not so sure I should've been making a player like boss and his luigi so salty when I was just practicing the move.

"I can't even land with nair oh my god why don't you main this broken ****" -Boss 2015

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

"Legal until proven broken"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I feel like smash wiiU has lost touch with this concept. I remember when everyone was crying for the ban hammer on lil Mac because of his KO punch and superior frame data. Boy did we have it backwards lol... You see, I don't think we can say for sure whether something is broken until it is put to competitive test (tournaments) and it comes out on top. Mac is considered trash now by most people because when we see one most people know how to play around his strengths. EVO allowed customs and we didn't see anything broken, therefore if you follow the "legal until proven broken" logic, then you must assert that SO FAR we don't have evidence to convict the customs of being broken.


So far we haven't been given a reason not to embrace customs. "THATS TO MUCH MATCHUP RESEARCH I HAVE TO DO." So if the next smash has 100 character we should ban half of them for matchup simplicity? "THE META WILL BE TO DYNAMIC." Do you think melee players give two ****s that only and handful of their characters can put a dent in fox? "CUSTOMS ARENT BEING PATCHED." this is slightly untrue, but do you think the brawl or melee players cared that their games didn't get patched? Some characters got the short end of the default move stick, it happens.

We need to stop crying for rules and patches to make things fair and just play the f***ing game. Somone finds a good strategy? Find a way around it! We have become lazy as a community and act like we need to be spoon fed.

This shouldn't be a subjective debate, it should be is "X" broken? Let's test it... Well the competitive test proved that "X" was beatable by using "Y." Will every character have access to "Y"? No, but we didn't base fox's viability by what Y's pichu had.

Let's stop trying to fix problems before we even know if they are problems guys. Customs could be what make sm4sh as memorable as melee.

 

[Macchiato]

This idea is p weird but maybe we should give bad characters their best customs and top tiers their worst as their default moveset
Like sheik would have all her worst customs, and Robin would have all her best customs

idk

What makes it unhealthy imo is that you can win 80% of the game and lose because ganon got one dthrow string on you + a read or you doing something that would only be slightly unsafe in most other MUs because he can dark fist OoS or as a combo breaker.

It's like if rock smash killed at 70%. Same super armor timings, and general times they can be used imo... It's just more worth throwing out and demands more respect because of that.

Of course, characters who do everything off grabs or projectiles/spacing still destroy him. So it might be okay, I just think it's a little extreme. Kind of like brawl Dedede.

Personally, I'm fond of a set list that universally bans all custom upsecials, and certain other customs. Upspecials make up the majority of controversial customs by far. While I don't think they all NEED to be banned, I think a decision like this could be enough for others to be okay playing customs and eventually deciding "Hmm, you know maybe we should let dk have kong cyclone after all. He's pretty garbage without it"

That could work, HmMmMmMmM I just realized that all the controversial customs are up specials. Jumbo hoops, Kong Cyclone, Extreme Balloon trip.

 

[Goesasu]

Din's blaze is horrible, what are you saying

1213 is her best set agreed by all Zeldas.

Flare lets her force an actual approach and it's faster with more range. It is as strong as max distance Din's Fire at every distance. It's also easier to sweet spot.

Phantom Strike is just a direct upgrade. More damage, faster charge, no deadzone.

I might miss some good sets.

Eveb though, blaze is far from trash you just send this baby while they r recovering and you just put them in a horrible trap. Avoid blaze and face zelda or let blaze kill you?

Also default phanton kills, unlike customs and Imo is easier to sweatspot and helps you to come back to stage easier.

I also enjoy 1213 and should have mentioned it, but 1311 is also very viable as some kind of trap master.

Some chars gains more than 1 useful custom set and that is awesome by itself.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It's a shame.

Customs have great success and no one cares... T.T

What were some of the reasons everyone said?

Players are notorious for being very bad at verbalizing or even understanding their own opinions. That said, I think most of the players are against it because they overcentralize the game when they are strong. Playing against a villager versus a trip seed a villager is a hole different ballgame and people don't like that.

They are also a massive crutch. If you watch ESAM vs Abadango, ESAM played like crap because half the time he was fishing for side B kills. The one stock (that whole set) that he played normally, he did SO much better. That example was quoted to me by MVD.

Oh and another issue quoted to me was that customs are clearly not a focus of balance so they will always be broken.

Personally, I feel the only real value added to the game by customs is that they make characters who were previously garbage actually viable. Doctor Mario and Palutena are real characters because of customs and they aren't too over-centralized or janky.

I think the real issue with customs is that they don't work in a way that would add to the game. If we could choose our customs in an efficient and easy manner with all customers unlocked and then we set up we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I feel like if that were the case customers would be accepted worldwide... But we'll never know because thats never going to happen.

 

[Macchiato]

I might miss some good sets.

Eveb though, blaze is far from trash you just send this baby while they r recovering and you just put them in a horrible trap. Avoid blaze and face zelda or let blaze kill you?

Also default phanton kills, unlike customs and Imo is easier to sweatspot and helps you to come back to stage easier.

I also enjoy 1213 and should have mentioned it, but 1311 is also very viable as some kind of trap master.

Some chars gains more than 1 useful custom set and that is awesome by itself.

No, EVERY Zelda agrees that it's trash... It's too slow and laggy and never explodes when you want it too.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Sounds like Boss needs to level up.

 

[DunnoBro]

All I remember about melee is fox or people getting upset when not-fox wins.

That could work, HmMmMmMmM I just realized that all the controversial customs are up specials. Jumbo hoops, Kong Cyclone, Extreme Balloon trip.

Not quite, HSB, Stun Jolt, Hammer Spindash, and Laser Starbits are up there too. The vast majority are upspecials, though.

 

[Macchiato]

All I remember about melee is fox or people getting upset when not-fox wins.



Not quite, HSB, Stun Jolt, Hammer Spindash, and Laser Starbits are up there too. The vast majority are upspecials, though.

HmMmMmMmM Shooting Starbits? It's not that good itself but just the fact that it covers one of Rosalina's few problems is why people have been hating it. It by itself isn't nearly as bad as the others listed.

 

[DunnoBro]

HmMmMmMmM Shooting Starbits? It's not that good itself but just the fact that it covers one of Rosalina's few problems is why people have been hating it. It by itself isn't nearly as bad as the others listed.

Entirely true, but I consider it just as controversial. (As in, complained about)

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Pro-customs player here, although all of my tourney experience thus far has been in vanilla...

I don't necessarily see why this has to be an all or nothing sort of thing. If people want to see customs, they should get together and try to make it happen. If the people want to play like that, they'll come out, you know? Pushing for it to replace vanilla - which is regularly getting balanced in generally intelligent ways, mind - of course is going to come with a lot of opposition behind it.

If I had any experience TO-ing and knew I could reliably find a venue + players with custom set-ups, I wouldn't mind helping to establish a customs scene around here. I would, at the very least, recommend that other players do the same if they don't want to see customs as a meta die.

These thoughts are pretty much without regard to their usage at EVO. I was pro before, and I'm still pro now. I still think there's value in playing Smash 4 the way we have been, but when we have the tools to evolve the game in new directions I think it's a waste to ignore them.

 

[Teshie U]

Stopped reading here since I don't want to seriously discuss a character with such poor tournament performance as problematic, but spindash also has very little risk against most characters shields when used properly. Which is MUCH easier to do than proper super speed useage.

And to begin with, I don't think safe-on-shield moves are necessarily a problem.



This I can agree with on many levels, however it isn't that they "Aren't clearly being balanced" it's that "They clearly haven't been balanced to an acceptable point yet"

They clearly have been balanced in the past, the major deciding factor for me is if they continue, and how good a job they do of it. If they can't function without for glory and japanese data to go off of like default does, then they likely will have to go, or we will have to balance things ourselves. A less than ideal outcome, but more than doable. Especially with the restrictions in place already.

As I already said. Palutena represents a polarizing issue much like DDD in brawl. Half the people in the room are thinking "good god I hope this guy doesn't use DDD" and the other half are thinking "lol if this guy goes DDD, its a free win for me". The issue with super speed + back air is the fact that it becomes pretty much 100% safe vs slower characters. Its an invincible aerial sliding past you and having endlag waaaay too far away for you get a meaningful punish. Sonic's bair is his most disjointed aerial and its pretty laggy. He can't reliably cover his landing without mixing up and getting people to commit to the wrong punish too early.

Things being safe on shield isn't an issue, its how they are safe on shield that matters. Bair already beats all other attacks, it doesn't deserve a clean getaway.

From my perspective, I don't see custom moves that were ever balanced. The best example is burning spindash, and it honestly wasn't the best version of sonic's 6 spindashes. It had massive endlag on shields, prevented him from using spindash into most of his aerials without lag (because it had half the jump height) and relied more on being right than being safe.

All other custom changes were along the lines of what we saw to little mac's side B when the wii u version launched. They just got adjusted because they weren't functioning as intended. Or the animation shared by all 3 variations got edited. The top offenders for customs have been completely ignored so far.


Dark Fists is strong, but its a slow move, its power comes from absorbing something thats not spaced well and then then launching into the air and going helpless. Unless you are fighting sheik, its a pretty major risk if you aren't right. As for losing 80% of the match and then winning because of rage, this is exactly what Falcon already does. Ganon's design pretty much already exploits this to the fullest. He throws out relatively safe powerful moves that you need to continuously avoid if you don't want to die at 40-60. His design pretty much has to be exploitable enough that he can't consistently hit or it risks being far far too easy.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I don't understand how customs are broken, they have been proven powerful yes, but in the end they were all beaten by characters with good fundamentals at EVO... I'm just not seeing a good argument to ban them...

 

[DunnoBro]

Really don't see why shield pressure is some game-breaking idea, especially in palutena's case can only do it with proper spacing every 10 or so seconds.

Also, again, plenty of other custom got direct nerfs. You can claim "intentions" all you want, but little mac not recovering sounds like a pretty intentional nerf to me. Only time will tell if they continue nerfing them, and properly.

 

[Goesasu]

No, EVERY Zelda agrees that it's trash... It's too slow and laggy and never explodes when you want it too.

It serves as a trap more than a move itself. It takes space from your opponent to recover so he will be facing you while he does it.

Some moves, like this, are sidegrades and serve different purposes and thats its good and healthy for the game.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I agree it's the perfect kind of move for him, but a little too extreme still.

It's a reactive tech chase option, meaning after a choke he doesn't need to YOLO smash or dash attack to catch them. If he ran the proper direction(or shielded/called the lay down), he can kill them that way.

It's also a reactive air dodge and roll punish, but his lack of mobility keeps it from being too relevant.

Without rage, it's killing around 70-90% which is fine imo. But with rage? 40-60? For the love of god, don't anger this man.

I wouldn't label it as extreme. Ganon is still absurdly slow and is still a combo feast no matter what custom build he has, so him having a decently reliable early kill option will only aid his viability status. He's not going to be top-tier or even high-tier, I promise you.

 

[DunnoBro]

I wouldn't label it as extreme. Ganon is still absurdly slow and is still a combo feast no matter what custom build he has, so him having a decently reliable early kill option will only aid his viability status. He's not going to be top-tier or even high-tier, I promise you.

I think dying at 39% because you went for a not-true combo is kind of extreme: http://gfycat.com/IllImmediateBlackwidowspider

 

[JayWon]

As I already said. Palutena represents a polarizing issue much like DDD in brawl. Half the people in the room are thinking "good god I hope this guy doesn't use DDD" and the other half are thinking "lol if this guy goes DDD, its a free win for me". The issue with super speed + back air is the fact that it becomes pretty much 100% safe vs slower characters. Its an invincible aerial sliding past you and having endlag waaaay too far away for you get a meaningful punish. Sonic's bair is his most disjointed aerial and its pretty laggy. He can't reliably cover his landing without mixing up and getting people to commit to the wrong punish too early.

Things being safe on shield isn't an issue, its how they are safe on shield that matters. Bair already beats all other attacks, it doesn't deserve a clean getaway.

Dude you've been giving Superspeed >> B-air way too much credit. Superspeed has no priority. You can stop it with any jab, any projectiles, you can shield it, you can grab it, you can roll, spot dodge, you can jump over it. You literally have every option to deal with Superspeed. Getting hit by superspeed itself does like 3% on contact and quickly stales to 1%. Getting a b-air off Superspeed is nice additional 12% but because Palutena only uses VERY few moves in the neutral, b-air along with all her other moves stales super quickly as well.

B-air is invincible (hurray!) and safe on shield if spaced properly but you can still shield it safely nevertheless (unlike Luigi's fireballs where it don't matter if you perfect shield it or not). I can't believe you hating on b-air. That's one of the few awesome moves Palutena has.

I don't think you are qualified to say ANYTHING about Palutena because what you've been saying is one of the worst irrelevant analysis of Palutena I have ever read. You truly have no idea what you are talking about. I personally answered what I believe the main potential concern of custom palutena (infinite lightweight and early d-throw n-air u-air kills) but your "problems" with her are either extremely petty or universal to other top tier characters, Palutena, ESPECIALLY with customs, does not lack depth whatsoever. She's mechanically/technically demanding, intricate, and no where near a mindless free jank easy win.

Sonic is annoying, but at least his ground game is offset by his poor aerial mobility. Once he has actually committed to even releasing a spindash, he goes into a disadvantaged state if it doesn't hit.

There isn't much most of the cast can do about super speed/lightweight bair. Palutena even with customs is pretty lacking in depth and isn't adding a viable character, just a barrier that might invalidate slower characters.

WTF Sonic does not have poor aerial mobility. He's rank 6. That's pretty good to me. and Sonic isn't at a complete disadvantage if he misses his spin dash. It's hard to shield grab and it's hard to follow up with a punish. On the other hand, Palutena gets punished HARD EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. she screws up whiffing ANY tilts, smashes, Dash attack, Dash grab, Landing with u-air/d-air, jab combo.

Palutena's offensive isn't completely oppressive with lightweight (even with the glitch), but she becomes far more mobile than Sonic with her custom specials. The problem with lightweight isn't "she might approach me with all that speed!", its the obvious run away factor that lets her ignore disadvantaged and neutral vs most of the cast simply because they cant catch her.

Run away factor? I don't think the Palutena mains choose to continue maining Palutena because they have the "play to win don't matter how lame/campy sonic" mentality. Yes Palutena becomes the fastest ground/aerial under Lightweight but it doesn't last forever and she still has crappy laggy frame data. I believe shulk with his monodo arts and ZSS is a close candidate in terms of evasiveness with great ground speed, aerial mobility, high jump heights, along with her down b, but you don't see ZSS/Shulk players "obviously" run away when they easily can.

Custom Palutena does not ignore or skip the neutral. She has small burst of playing the neutral super super fast and just has safe mixup options for getting back on stage. I honestly cannot believe out of all the obnoxious default moves out there in smash 4, you actually put in effort to put down Palutena.


EDIT: Hmmm always thought Lightweight was faster than Sonic but just checked. Sonic is still faster.

 

[moofpi]

I think dying at 39% because you went for a not-true combo is kind of extreme: http://gfycat.com/IllImmediateBlackwidowspider

That's not extreme lol. That was an 80% rage Ganondorf punishing an airdodge of a relatively light Greninja with an admittedly strong move next to the top blast zone on the low ceiling Town and City. Also he died at 57%.

 

[DunnoBro]

That's not extreme lol. That was an 80% rage Ganondorf punishing an airdodge of a relatively light Greninja with an admittedly strong move next to the top blast zone on the low ceiling Town and City. Also he died at 57%.

Err, I didn't punish an air dodge. I punished him trying to hit me lol

I agree there are factors such as rage, ceiling, and niche situation... But to deny it's extreme is a ***** much, I think.

 

[moofpi]

Err, I didn't punish an air dodge. I punished him trying to hit me lol

I agree there are factors such as rage, ceiling, and niche situation... But to deny it's extreme is a ***** much, I think.

My bad, you air dodged the hit then hit him. Yeah I know it's good, one the top players in my state is a Ganondorf main who goes custom at every opportunity. I think it really helps his recovery because you'd be insane to challenge it and also helps guard the ledge because it goes so as far as Shulk's Up B through BF, FD, and such ledges. Lylat is his favorite. Either way I don't think it should be banned or whatever, being a really good move is not a crime. It's easy to throw out, but they better land it or they're getting the hard punish. I don't think it defines the character, it's just another KO inducing cherry on top.

 

[Teshie U]

@ DunnoBro please educate on the OP customs that got fixed at all. I don't know of any. Little Mac was basically nerfed because Sakurai felt he should have a rough time off stage. He never said "these little macs are recovering all the time and its overpowered". It just wasn't the way he was meant to feel.

Never said shield pressure was a bad thing. Super speeding across the map is meant to go around your opponent, you won't get the chance to beat it with a jab or anything.

Sonic's MOBILITY is not high in the air. His airspeed in a single direction is among the top once he has fully accelerated. To change directions, he has to expend his double jump or a one time use special and these things just send him up, not hurtling back to the other side of the stage faster than ANYONE else can move.

Having a bunch of bad options that you won't ever use doesn't make your character deep. It just means a Palutena player trying to win will run away more often than not. I know Palutena sucks at fighting and that terrible for her mains. But I dont think just making her good at running away is a valid way to balance her.

I speak from experience, Palutena pretty much avoids characters until they commit too hard or time her out, or she just gets wrecked by the decent characters that can match her speed often enough (Sheik, Fox, Sonic, Falcon).

 

[thehard]

They are also a massive crutch. If you watch ESAM vs Abadango, ESAM played like crap because half the time he was fishing for side B kills. The one stock (that whole set) that he played normally, he did SO much better. That example was quoted to me by MVD.

Not a real argument. The moves didn't "make" ESAM play that way.

I can sympathize with your other points though.

If top players are still OK with customs for weaker characters then that may have to be the direction we move in.

Waiting to see how Nintendo responds to EVO.

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro please educate on the OP customs that got fixed at all. I don't know of any. Little Mac was basically nerfed because Sakurai felt he should have a rough time off stage.

Dragon rush, the olimar ohko glitch... Custom bowser and villager were pseudo-nerfed via mechanic changes. (Custom bowser was 100x worse than custom villager. People were getting jv3'd in grands lmao)

I can't recall currently, but there were other. I believe thinkaman has an in-depth list, you could contact him if you want more.

 

[moofpi]

Dragon rush, the olimar ohko glitch... Custom bowser and villager were pseudo-nerfed via mechanic changes. (Custom bowser was 100x worse than custom villager. People were getting jv3'd in grands lmao)

I can't recall currently, but there were other. I believe thinkaman has an in-depth list, you could contact him if you want more.

Yooo what was Papa Bowser doing that was so broken? I have to know

 

[Electric91]

Hey guys, i've been pushing customs since the beginning, and i'm really glad to see where the polls got at, the team I work and lead at the moment (Hypest Team) is mostly responsible for pushing customs into Evo. Some of us have been in slight contact with Mr. Wizard, while the community and mainly our pool of players pushed a lot for customs to be on at Evo. This said, no one knew how it was going to turn out, just saying, i'm really glad to see that customs are in full support now. I have no idea how the TO's are going to react to it outside from us, for now, if the other ones are in agreement to keep using customs, we'd be really glad for this project and debate to come to an end. There are many, many arguments for customs to be on, more than being off.

I could start with the main one that it makes the game more interesting, fun, and will expand the meta to new borders. I think that camping is part of our system. I also think that the current pool of stagelists are a product of this camping strategy. This said, it would be really stupid to kill stages such as delfino, halberd, castle siege JUST because it can promote camping play, which is just a part of the game like another imo. EVEN if they are mostly "boring" for the viewers, it's a new perspective of fighting to the competitors.

I mean, even in melee, a fast paced technical game we saw hbox camping and timing out opponents, so why not in smash 4? Sure it's more promoted to say so, but i believe customs have nothing to do with this strategy for villager or sonic.

This aside, I'd love to hear a lot of opinions considering this, if anything, i think customs are pretty good, one day, if one is proven "broken", it'd be safe to ban one particular move....

If customs were to be set to off in the next major, then we had our run, perhaps. But in the meantime, I think that they went wonderfully during Evo.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yooo what was Papa Bowser doing that was so broken? I have to know

His custom dash slam went suuuper far and had more horizontal movement during the slam. Letting him bowsercide from pretty much anywhere on the stage. Making every final stock situation a "camp for this easy ass command grab to win" situation.

Also, on certain stages with the custom upspecial he could come back after the opponent hit the blastzone. With the early stage list, all bowser had to do was strike battlefield and he could start on a stage that let him do this.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I feel like customs just add so much to the game. They're able to totally change up the way certain match-ups work, give players particular advantages in traditionally bad situations, and make seemingly irrelevant moves good again. There's so much potential and would completely change the metagame. New strategies and techniques would continue to come up years down the line! Yeah there are some custom moves that CAN cause problems, but there are so few of them that it shouldn't matter. Worse case scenario: we ban a few custom moves and call it good.

 

[Teshie U]

As I said, universal changes to an animation or mechanic shared by the default move dont count. The animation for Ike's quickdraw was changed as well and it affects all his variations. Villager had a limitation added to his helium for all his Up B moves, Bowser had a mechanic change for either variation of bowsercide.

The Olimar glitch was probably only fixed because it got TONS of attention outside of competitive smash. It was on the front page of gamespot, ign and other casual gaming sites. Honestly maybe pro-custom people should try to gain more attention for the broken stuff rather than downplaying it. Maybe then it will get fixed. A headline like "10 SPECIFIC CUSTOM MOVES RUINING COMPETITIVE SMASH" might be what it takes to force the patch team to address it.

 

[Charey]

Dragon Rush got a damage nerf without changing Flare Blitz or Blast Burn changing, so yes they have balance patched custom moves before. But it's hard for anyone to know what to change until we start pushing the customs meta.

 

[DunnoBro]

As I said, universal changes to an animation or mechanic shared by the default move dont count. The animation for Ike's quickdraw was changed as well and it affects all his variations. Villager had a limitation added to his helium for all his Up B moves, Bowser had a mechanic change for either variation of bowsercide.

The Olimar glitch was probably only fixed because it got TONS of attention outside of competitive smash. It was on the front page of gamespot, ign and other casual gaming sites. Honestly maybe pro-custom people should try to gain more attention for the broken stuff rather than downplaying it. Maybe then it will get fixed. A headline like "10 SPECIFIC CUSTOM MOVES RUINING COMPETITIVE SMASH" might be what it takes to force the patch team to address it.

I mean most of the issues with customs are via mechanics

HSB's smash charge, kong cyclone's platform canceling, stun infinites... Most of this stuff is obviously not intended.

You're telling me if they took away platform canceling for all dk's upspecials, you wouldn't consider cyclone nerfed? Who are you to decide it was an unintentional nerf?

And I'm pretty sure many pro-customs people such as myself still point out broken ones when they see it. I mean, the previous page i was explaining why I think dark fist is broken. Downplaying is an issue, sure. So is overexaggerating, though. (RIP mac)

 

[Shaya]

I'm probably within 1-5% difference of opinion to DunnoBro.. perhaps we're both centre aligned with him slightly left and me slightly right.
My long-term analogy of "customs can be good, look how much better these characters are in a great way", "wait... they add a pseudo brawl dedede? uhhhh not interested" is probably the most simplified base logic or perspective that active tournament players are aligning themselves with.

And if customs want to survive they need to realise that some moves, even if they aren't "broken", have to go. If Nintendo starts to actually put real effort into balancing customs (they haven't thus far, #pettyshaya, but this is OBJECTIVE) then we'll have a workable future that may start to turn anti opinions back towards pro. Otherwise it's "removing" various customs from the pool, which the average pro-custom person has been staunchly against even humoring the idea (which has gone to alienate the indifferent and anti players from pro-players in communities NOTICEABLY); the pride that can only be verbalised as "if they aren't broken/single handedly winning tournaments it's OKAY" is killing pro-customs chances by the day.