What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[blackghost]

So, did anything interesting for the customs meta happen at Glitch custom singles?

the matches were fun. not many were streamed. but it was cool to see an offensive wario mii brawler was running wild as well but the players that knew how to fight and DI mii brawler took him out.
@Fallen hero
sorry thats just not accurate. custom moves have been nerfed over the past few months. actually a lot have been obviouslt nerfed. there isn't much knowledge as to full knockback and frame changes but a few very obious changes such as shiek piercing needles have reduced Shields damage, pikachu infinite setup with paralyzing jolt is gone, kong cyclone windbox reduced and armor reduced, charizard dragon rush ending lag increased, counter sapling time reduced, and knockback on marth customs in general increased. theres other chagnes as well.

 

[FallenHero]

the matches were fun. not many were streamed. but it was cool to see an offensive wario mii brawler was running wild as well but the players that knew how to fight and DI mii brawler took him out.
@Fallen hero
sorry thats just not accurate. custom moves have been nerfed over the past few months. actually a lot have been obviouslt nerfed. there isn't much knowledge as to full knockback and frame changes but a few very obious changes such as shiek piercing needles have reduced Shields damage, pikachu infinite setup with paralyzing jolt is gone, kong cyclone windbox reduced and armor reduced, charizard dragon rush ending lag increased, counter sapling time reduced, and knockback on marth customs in general increased. theres other chagnes as well.

Hey well now I know. Also this is the second time on this thread someone tagged the wrong person while trying to tag me lol.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Emulators dude, of anything Smash 4 is the least accessible, because it is the only smash game at this point that you can't get for free. All you really need is a computer that can emulate those games (which does not take much to emulate Melee at least from my experience), an emulator, and the ISOs for these games. A controller is optional and you don't even need to use a GC/N64 controller if you want to use one. Learning to how to get and use an emulator is very easy.

lmao access of an inferior way to play the games isn't any indication that the game is easy to get into

Plus Smash 4's mechanics are super easy to get into compared to Melee and PM

 

[blackghost]

lmao access of an inferior way to play the games isn't any indication that the game is easy to get into

Plus Smash 4's mechanics are super easy to get into compared to Melee and PM

Yeah people don't get into games through emulators. Your average consumer doesn't even know they exist. The problem is this community doesn't always understand we are one extreme and the average is far from us.
On a side note kind custom hammers were modified in this patch so more proof of intended use.

 

[Smash_Akuma]

Not everybody has a turbo controller or 3DS, and not everybody wants to buy one. Even if you know people who have a 3DS, it probably isn't likely for them to have all the customs/ all the customs you need. I should be able to buy a fighting game and have all the characters and stages without having to deal with RNG. Even if someone does decide to try to grind for customs, they could just end up getting burned out and pushed away from the game mid or post grind.



^^ Like I said before, if this is true this could be a strong reason against customs.



Like I said before, it can be too much for a new player who wants to play this game competitively to learn and that can seriously hurt the growth of this game. Though don't get me wrong I disagree with the idea of not allowing something because you don't know about it. As far as I know, customs are rarely patched (I only heard of a custom being patched once in this thread months ago and I am not sure if they said which one(s))



While I don't see this one as a good reason against customs, non-DLC characters will have more options than DLC characters, even if a character like Ryu or Bayonetta will still be very good in a customs meta.



Fair enough, though I have not really seen many people try to use this as an argument.


mkx barely even has a competitive scene


From what I see, not many anti-custom players come to this thread (I think it is because most of us don't care about customs anymore or don't feel like arguing in a thread frequented by about 90% pro customs players) so I usually see you guys just arguing with one person at a time. There was literally one person who tried to use that as in argument recently.



You make it sound like it is a 1:1 ratio, but I highly doubt it is near that.



I said this months ago and I will say it again, most people won't play a game they don't like. If the majority of people don't like customs, a majority of smash players might stop playing the game, at least at a competitive level. Even you seem to agree with this since you refuse to play with customs turned off.



Emulators dude, of anything Smash 4 is the least accessible, because it is the only smash game at this point that you can't get for free. All you really need is a computer that can emulate those games (which does not take much to emulate Melee at least from my experience), an emulator, and the ISOs for these games. A controller is optional and you don't even need to use a GC/N64 controller if you want to use one. Learning to how to get and use an emulator is very easy.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Yeah people don't get into games through emulators. Your average consumer doesn't even know they exist. The problem is this community doesn't always understand we are one extreme and the average is far from us.
On a side note kind custom hammers were modified in this patch so more proof of intended use.

Wait, Custom Hammers?

 

[Zerp]

Wait, Custom Hammers?

I believe he's talking about Kirby's hammer custom moves, according to the patch notes thread they were changed.

Spoiler: Changes to custom hammers

• hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, head of hammer) 76->78
• hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, handle of hammer) 76->78
• hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, head of hammer) 76->78
• hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, handle of hammer) 76->78
• hammer custom 2 KBG (air, uncharged) 76->78
• hammer custom 2 KBG (air, fully charged) 76->78
• hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, uncharged) 76->78
• hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, fully charged) 76->78

 

[FallenHero]

lmao access of an inferior way to play the games isn't any indication that the game is easy to get into

Plus Smash 4's mechanics are super easy to get into compared to Melee and PM

lol I have no idea how a free and modifiable version of these games is an "inferior" way to play the game. They even have netplay while the originals never had online or don't have online anymore! You can set it so that you have all the characters and stages unlocked so that you don't have to do something like play 900 versus matches to unlock Mr.G&W. I agree that Smash 4's mechanics are the easiest, but for me PM's most important ATs are easier to learn since there are really only like two or three of them that I found fairly easy to learn after practicing it a bit.

Yeah people don't get into games through emulators. Your average consumer doesn't even know they exist. The problem is this community doesn't always understand we are one extreme and the average is far from us.
On a side note kind custom hammers were modified in this patch so more proof of intended use.

Most people I know that play video games know what an emulator is. I think it would be harder to find a gamer who DOESN'T know what an emulator is.

 

[HermitHelmet]

lol I have no idea how a free and modifiable version of these games is an "inferior" way to play the game. They even have netplay while the originals never had online or don't have online anymore! You can set it so that you have all the characters and stages unlocked so that you don't have to do something like play 900 versus matches to unlock Mr.G&W. I agree that Smash 4's mechanics are the easiest, but for me PM's most important ATs are easier to learn since there are really only like two or three of them that I found fairly easy to learn after practicing it a bit.

It's inferior if you take either game seriously

Like, CRT VS Dolphin in terms of input lag is huge, plus you can't bring your PC to tournaments as a setup lol. In PM everything is unlocked so that's not a problem, and with Melee, memory cards exist for a reason. Also, if you said Smash 4's mechanics are easy to get in to, you've just proved my point lmao

 

[blackghost]

Most people I know that play video games know what an emulator is. I think it would be harder to find a gamer who DOESN'T know what an emulator is.

you misread what i said. "average consumer" parents buying games for kids, girlfriends and boyfriends buying for thier partners, young teenagers, ect. the fact that free pokemon games, smash bros games, and ect exist isn't common knowledge.

 

[FallenHero]

It's inferior if you take either game seriously

Like, CRT VS Dolphin in terms of input lag is huge, plus you can't bring your PC to tournaments as a setup lol. In PM everything is unlocked so that's not a problem, and with Melee, memory cards exist for a reason. Also, if you said Smash 4's mechanics are easy to get in to, you've just proved my point lmao

If dolphin is having input lag then you should try to do something to fix it, because I've never dealt with any input lag unless I was playing against someone online with a bad connection. I would assume tournaments would be able to get their own setups and other players can bring setups too. If you want to get a memory card with everything unlocked, you need to get one from somebody who has one or buy one. I don't understand how I proved your point by saying Smash 4's mechanics are easier, because easy mechanics alone won't make a game accessible. You do not need to play the game on the console it was made for to be able to play that way on the N64/GC/Wii in tournament. The most you would need to do is get a GC adapter (Wii U adapter has input lag from what I've hear, but the Mayflash adapters don't have noticeable or maybe even no input lag) and a GC controller to be able go to a tournament for Melee/Brawl/PM and preform pretty much the same. There are also some tournaments that have PC setups, besides you can bring a laptop to use as a setup.

you misread what i said. "average consumer" parents buying games for kids, girlfriends and boyfriends buying for thier partners, young teenagers, ect. the fact that free pokemon games, smash bros games, and ect exist isn't common knowledge.

It is certainly common knowledge to gamers, and the average consumer does not have a Wii U or knows someone who owns a Wii U considering the Wii U has not sold well.

 

[HermitHelmet]

If dolphin is having input lag then you should try to do something to fix it, because I've never dealt with any input lag unless I was playing against someone online with a bad connection. I would assume tournaments would be able to get their own setups and other players can bring setups too. If you want to get a memory card with everything unlocked, you need to get one from somebody who has one or buy one. I don't understand how I proved your point by saying Smash 4's mechanics are easier, because easy mechanics alone won't make a game accessible. You do not need to play the game on the console it was made for to be able to play that way on the N64/GC/Wii in tournament. The most you would need to do is get a GC adapter (Wii U adapter has input lag from what I've hear, but the Mayflash adapters don't have noticeable or maybe even no input lag) and a GC controller to be able go to a tournament for Melee/Brawl/PM and preform pretty much the same. There are also some tournaments that have PC setups, besides you can bring a laptop to use as a setup.

First of all, if you have ZERO input lag on Dolphin, especially online, you're wrong. A CRT setup from a Gamecube/Wii has no input delay, and Dolphin already has a built-in buffer, not to mention Netplay lag, Monitor lag, or Adapter Lag. There's a reason why Mango and Armada don't go around on Anthers, it's an unviable way to play the game seriously.

Also, by you yourself stating that Sm4sh's mechanics are easier to get into you've proved my point because I said that games like Melee and PM are harder to get into - Meaning that the loops that Smash 4 players have to jump through are nowhere near as bad as Melee/PM's due to their mechanics.

This all comes together because - If Smash 4 is the easiest to get into, then SURELY adding customs should not be that polarising, as it wouldn't make the game that much harder to get into?

 

[FallenHero]

First of all, if you have ZERO input lag on Dolphin, especially online, you're wrong. A CRT setup from a Gamecube/Wii has no input delay, and Dolphin already has a built-in buffer, not to mention Netplay lag, Monitor lag, or Adapter Lag. There's a reason why Mango and Armada don't go around on Anthers, it's an unviable way to play the game seriously.

Also, by you yourself stating that Sm4sh's mechanics are easier to get into you've proved my point because I said that games like Melee and PM are harder to get into - Meaning that the loops that Smash 4 players have to jump through are nowhere near as bad as Melee/PM's due to their mechanics.

This all comes together because - If Smash 4 is the easiest to get into, then SURELY adding customs should not be that polarising, as it wouldn't make the game that much harder to get into?

Emulating Melee on my computer has unnoticeable input lag compared to playing it on a GC or Wii, even on Netplay with a good enough connection. Things like monitor and adapter lag can be pretty much unnoticeable too with the right ones. Sure netplay lag happens, but that is because of connection and syncing, and it least has/still has a form of online play with others unlike the original ones.

You keep saying I am proving your point, but you are failing to give me more reasons than the one I already argued against. Like I said, mechanics alone won't a game more accessible. If there ever comes a time where the Smash 4 meta has evolved enough to make perfect pivoting necessary then the game will be a lot more difficult to get into then even melee and PM. Melee has grown a lot because of people seeing how fast paced the game looks and wanting to play like that, so many players will try to push themselves to be able to play like the people they see in tournaments. The growth of Melee also likely had an important role in the growth and creation of PM. Smash 4 is definitely not as fast paced as these two games, which for many people will make the game look less appealing. Every smash game before Smash 4 has less MUs and stages to learn about. Smash 4 has way more ATs than Melee and PM that are still being discovered now every few months or so, even if a lot of these ATs are character specific, most of them are probably just about as difficult to learn as wavedashing or L-canceling.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Emulating Melee on my computer has unnoticeable input lag compared to playing it on a GC or Wii, even on Netplay with a good enough connection. Things like monitor and adapter lag can be pretty much unnoticeable too with the right ones. Sure netplay lag happens, but that is because of connection and syncing, and it least has/still has a form of online play with others unlike the original ones.

Well if you don't notice the input delay, I'm sorry, but you're still wrong. The input delay is there, and for most it is noticeable, just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it's not there, lol. When you play Melee for as long as I have, the difference between PC and CRT can be unbearable at times, which makes it unreliable for practising on, and new players will also find that very jarring from jumping to an actual lagless setup from Netplay.

Alright, there's so much wrong with this second paragraph.

You keep saying I am proving your point, but you are failing to give me more reasons than the one I already argued against. Like I said, mechanics alone won't a game more accessible.

First of all, here are some of the reasons why Melee/PM are more difficult to access to a newcomer than Smash 4.

- A tournament legal setup costs a lot and is difficult to find/create
- Smash 4 is fresh, new, and constantly getting updated by Nintendo and Bandai Namco - AKA it's getting way more support in terms of advertisements, content, and a functional developer-to-player connection.
- Smash 4 is quite possibly the easiest game in the entire series to play in terms of advanced techniques, characters, stage control, neutral game, etc. If you'd like me to go more in-depth with how, I can, but you should get the idea.

If there ever comes a time where the Smash 4 meta has evolved enough to make perfect pivoting necessary then the game will be a lot more difficult to get into then even melee and PM.

That's completely wrong. The roster-wide techniques in Melee/PM create a crazy amount of options for each and every character to do, something Smash 4 can't compare to. Now, I enjoy Smash 4 for what it is, and it's intentionally designed to be easier, there's no denying that. Controls are smoother, movement is kept to a minimum, defensive options are way too good - It's created for a casual audience. Perfect Pivoting gives as much of an advantage as it does in Melee - It's a Pivot. Well done. Is it used for movement? No. Is it used to reduce endlag on aerials, creating a safer neutral game? No. Does it open up hundreds of combo opportunities? Maybe, but with a distinct lack of Melee hitstun, it just falls flat of being extremely useful. It's helpful, but the fact of the matter is, it's nowhere near as impactful as L-Cancelling, Wavedashing, Dashdancing, Chaingrabbing, Ledgedashing, or anything else that Melee or PM has to offer.

The growth of Melee also likely had an important role in the growth and creation of PM. Smash 4 is definitely not as fast paced as these two games, which for many people will make the game look less appealing.

This is completely the opposite. If this was true, Smash 4 would have only been created for a competitive audience that craves speed and precision gameplay, neither of which Smash 4 has (when compared to Melee/to an extent PM) and it was never intended to. The casual community is so turned off to Melee because of it's competitive community - And whilst that's not a good thing - Smash 4's Design reflects that viewpoint, as it's way more casual.

Every smash game before Smash 4 has less MUs and stages to learn about. Smash 4 has way more ATs than Melee and PM that are still being discovered now every few months or so, even if a lot of these ATs are character specific, most of them are probably just about as difficult to learn as wavedashing or L-canceling.

Again, this is untrue. Sure, more Matchups and Stages would make something more complicated, but with the age on the Internet, guides for every character can be made by anyone. There are now Discord Groups for every character with upwards of 300+ people, so help isn't far off for anyone with an internet connection. The game having more Matchups and Stages is true, but compared to Melee/PM, all of the variables that can happen in a matchup, or on a specific stage is way higher, despite many of the characters in Smash 4 being overloaded to hell (Bayonetta is a great example). The amount of ATs a game has is completely arbitrary - Melee/PM probably have more you've never even heard of, but that's irrelevant because the ATs in Smash 4 are globally less impactful than those found in Melee or PM. If you'd like to give me a list of Smash 4's "ATs", I can tell you for each and every single one exactly WHY Melee's/PM's are more crucial to the core gameplay, character exclusive or not. Ease of learning is also made redundant when you realise that most of the "important techniques" Smash 4 has don't even matter, and the ones that do lack the versatility of Melee/PM's ATs.

 

[FallenHero]

HermitHelmet finally we get somewhere with this argument. While there are some things I disagree with you about in that post, it isn't really that important to me. Now that you went more in depth I'll agree with you that Smash 4 is more accessible, but I still am not convinced that customs will benefit the community's growth.

 

[OshaHott]

I mean, they are extremely fun to use with friends. But, at the same time, you already have to learn SOOOO much about the game, why should you have to learn a total of 8 other special moves's frame data, per character! (minus DLC characters) It would put a lot of unneccessary pressure on players.

 

[HermitHelmet]

I mean, they are extremely fun to use with friends. But, at the same time, you already have to learn SOOOO much about the game, why should you have to learn a total of 8 other special moves's frame data, per character! (minus DLC characters) It would put a lot of unneccessary pressure on players.

I mean if you can be bothered to learn every character in the game then some specials (most of which suck) shouldn't be too hard lol

 

[blackghost]

I mean, they are extremely fun to use with friends. But, at the same time, you already have to learn SOOOO much about the game, why should you have to learn a total of 8 other special moves's frame data, per character! (minus DLC characters) It would put a lot of unneccessary pressure on players.

I will never buy this argument. league of legends, smite, pokemon, street fighter all competitive game with a crazy amount of matchups required to know. if you want to be competitive you will put in the work.
plus the idea that every custom will be used is wrong you would have to learn likely less than half.

 

[OshaHott]

I will never buy this argument. league of legends, smite, pokemon, street fighter all competitive game with a crazy amount of matchups required to know. if you want to be competitive you will put in the work.
plus the idea that every custom will be used is wrong you would have to learn likely less than half.

Yeah, I know not EVERY custom will get used, but that's still a lot that will. And yeah, you would put in the work, but it just seems... to time consuming. At least to me.

I mean if you can be bothered to learn every character in the game then some specials (most of which suck) shouldn't be too hard lol

Yeah I guess, but I mean, at high level play they should be banned, but in any other tournament they should be allowed.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Yeah I guess, but I mean, at high level play they should be banned, but in any other tournament they should be allowed.

Why should they be banned in high-level play?

 

[OshaHott]

Why should they be banned in high-level play?

Because it's hard enough to know almost every match up, frame data, advanced tech being muscle memory, etc. It's kinda hard to also know multiple custom moves. Though, I think that if they let them back in people would see that they are mostly just fun to use and to troll the opponent. You remember those custom villagers? Imagine that at EVO grand finals! xD

 

[HermitHelmet]

Because it's hard enough to know almost every match up, frame data, advanced tech being muscle memory, etc. It's kinda hard to also know multiple custom moves. Though, I think that if they let them back in people would see that they are mostly just fun to use and to troll the opponent. You remember those custom villagers? Imagine that at EVO grand finals! xD

...Not really? If you're dedicated enough to play the game at a competitive level, you should learn to roll with the punches. Also, Custom Villager was hardly that polarising, see Dapuffster at EVO.

 

[FallenHero]

If you're dedicated enough to play the game at a competitive level

I'm dedicated enough to play Smash 4 without customs competitively, but not enough to play it with them, so I would probably give up on competitive Smash 4 with a meta using customs due to me wanting to also dedicate time to other things and I only have a 3DS to play Smash 4 with (not really the best way to practice this game ever since this version became obsolete in comparison to the Wii U version). Sure one could say I should just buy a Wii U, but having two consoles in my living room, there is really no space for me to fit in another console. I really only play Smash 4 when I am at a friend's house or am in training mode to try to find something with a character.

You guys are bringing up some pretty good arguments now, but I don't really like how you guys are just brushing off the idea that it could be too time consuming for someone. A lot of us don't really have the time to learn about even all of the viable customs. I just don't like the idea that someone would be unable/unwilling to learn about the game because playing the game competitively will be too much. We shouldn't be trying to have Smash 4 more like other competitive games by making it take more dedication to get good then it already takes.

 

[Megamang]

What matters, is the effect it has on the game. Arguing whether people will do whatever is purely guessing games. FallenHero just said he won't get a WiiU because he doesn't have space in his living room! We can't predict that kind of thing.

So lets not talk about Sm4sh vs other smash games, or stuff like that. Do you honestly believe customs improve the game? I like the direction the game is headed. I believe the stun in the game is currently at a perfect level, and I don't like the idea of pikachu having stun balls, sonic having a grounding spin dash, luma having a laser (she is fine without it and is already forcing approaches, the laser is wayyyy over the top imo).

Also, now that we have lots of DLC characters without customs, do we just say, sucks for them to be DLC, less options for these characters? (Though the DLC has, on average, more moves.)

 

[HermitHelmet]

I'm dedicated enough to play Smash 4 without customs competitively, but not enough to play it with them, so I would probably give up on competitive Smash 4 with a meta using customs due to me wanting to also dedicate time to other things and I only have a 3DS to play Smash 4 with (not really the best way to practice this game ever since this version became obsolete in comparison to the Wii U version). Sure one could say I should just buy a Wii U, but having two consoles in my living room, there is really no space for me to fit in another console. I really only play Smash 4 when I am at a friend's house or am in training mode to try to find something with a character.

You guys are bringing up some pretty good arguments now, but I don't really like how you guys are just brushing off the idea that it could be too time consuming for someone. A lot of us don't really have the time to learn about even all of the viable customs. I just don't like the idea that someone would be unable/unwilling to learn about the game because playing the game competitively will be too much. We shouldn't be trying to have Smash 4 more like other competitive games by making it take more dedication to get good then it already takes.

Smash 4 is still the easiest game in the series - Newcomers will not be deterred by Customs at all if they're integrated properly by TOs, and having more options is never a bad thing. If you don't want to dedicate the time to learning what customs do, that is YOUR fault, and it should not be a factor in whether the entire community is in favour of them or not.

What matters, is the effect it has on the game. Arguing whether people will do whatever is purely guessing games. FallenHero just said he won't get a WiiU because he doesn't have space in his living room! We can't predict that kind of thing.

So lets not talk about Sm4sh vs other smash games, or stuff like that. Do you honestly believe customs improve the game? I like the direction the game is headed. I believe the stun in the game is currently at a perfect level, and I don't like the idea of pikachu having stun balls, sonic having a grounding spin dash, luma having a laser (she is fine without it and is already forcing approaches, the laser is wayyyy over the top imo).

Also, now that we have lots of DLC characters without customs, do we just say, sucks for them to be DLC, less options for these characters? (Though the DLC has, on average, more moves.)

Yes, I do believe they improve the game. Almost every character benefits from having Customs, and we need to stray away from the "jank" mentality altogether regarding them.

Also, if the DLC Characters have no customs, who cares? They are designed to have a strong base moveset in both a customs on/off environment, so regardless, it wouldn't be unfair. I main a DLC Character and I want to at least TRY Custom Moves being legal, because it gives other characters more options.

 

[OshaHott]

...Not really? If you're dedicated enough to play the game at a competitive level, you should learn to roll with the punches. Also, Custom Villager was hardly that polarising, see Dapuffster at EVO.

I guess you're right. But this is all coming from someone who barely knows the game and has only had a FG experience with Sm4sh. Maybe now that I am on SmashBoards I can find some better players...

 

[PoptartLord]

Instead of going down the "too much to learn" rabbit hole again, here's a bold statement: One of the main goals of alternate specials is to give characters more options tailored to the different game modes, including 1v1 w/out items. If you look at the differences between defaults and alternates you'll find several reoccurring trends.

• Decreased risk and reward || reduce complexity
• Increased risk and reward
• Quicker and/or more disruptive for reduced power
• Slower with increased power
• Recovery: Add distance, remove hitbox
• Recovery: Remove distance, add hitbox
• Cover holes in the moveset
• Do whatever to hit the two alternate quota

This isn't meant to be an exhaustive list, so don't take it as such. It is, however, enough to make an argument to show deliberate consideration for game modes (1v1 and FFA) and skill levels. Now on to the supporting evidence while trying to be as brief as possible!

Decreased risk and reward || reduce complexity: These are options for the very casual players and will never be picked in tournament because they are strict downgrades. Marth's Effortless Blade removes the up/down variants and deals less damage in exchange for being easier to pull off. Luigi's Fiery Jump Punch sacrifices damage for an increased sweetspot range.

Increased risk and reward: These are more common tournament picks as you need to be more skilled/precise to make use of them. Marth's Iai Counter is active for a shorter time frame and does more damage.

Quicker and/or more disruptive for reduced power: These have more use in a 1v1 environment where disrupting someone that has their full attention focused only on you is more important than the damage loss. These also tend to be up to player preference more than a strict upgrade. Mario's Fast Fireball better harasses someone in front of you while losing damage and falling coverage. Link's Quickfire Bow trades in range and power for a faster close range option.

Slower with increased power: Pretty much only useful in FFAs due to it's chaotic nature. Attack strings can be interrupted by third parties in FFAs, so the more single-hit nature of Marth's Heavy Blade can have a niche there. For the times where nobody is focusing on you, you not only have the time to fully charge Link's Power Bow but also enough distractions to land a shot without it being avoided/shielded.

Recovery: Add distance, remove hitbox & Recovery: Remove distance, add hitbox: Who doesn't have one of these? These variants are easy to make and very much player preference. Hitboxes make for safer recoveries and distance means you can survive or edgeguard longer.

Cover holes in the moveset: These are harder to define but arguably best show the amount of intentional design of the alternates. Robin's Fire Wall covers space directly in front of him/her. Ness's PSI Magnet is useless when items are off and no opponent has an energy projectile, and that's where PSI Vacuum's comes in. Marth's Crescent Slash intersects with his throw too well to be a happy arc accident.

Do whatever to hit the two alternate quota: I'm going to throw moves like Mr. Game & Watch's Extreme Judge in here. They can't all be winners, and the developers are only human (and under time and budget constraints).

tl:dr - 1) If you look close enough you'll see there's a distinct point to most of the alternate specials 2) Smash is more than 1v1 no items played by dedicated tournament-goers.

-PoptartLord

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Instead of going down the "too much to learn" rabbit hole again, here's a bold statement: One of the main goals of alternate specials is to give characters more options tailored to the different game modes, including 1v1 w/out items. If you look at the differences between defaults and alternates you'll find several reoccurring trends.

• Decreased risk and reward || reduce complexity
• Increased risk and reward
• Quicker and/or more disruptive for reduced power
• Slower with increased power
• Recovery: Add distance, remove hitbox
• Recovery: Remove distance, add hitbox
• Cover holes in the moveset
• Do whatever to hit the two alternate quota

This isn't meant to be an exhaustive list, so don't take it as such. It is, however, enough to make an argument to show deliberate consideration for game modes (1v1 and FFA) and skill levels. Now on to the supporting evidence while trying to be as brief as possible!

Decreased risk and reward || reduce complexity: These are options for the very casual players and will never be picked in tournament because they are strict downgrades. Marth's Effortless Blade removes the up/down variants and deals less damage in exchange for being easier to pull off. Luigi's Fiery Jump Punch sacrifices damage for an increased sweetspot range.

Increased risk and reward: These are more common tournament picks as you need to be more skilled/precise to make use of them. Marth's Iai Counter is active for a shorter time frame and does more damage.

Quicker and/or more disruptive for reduced power: These have more use in a 1v1 environment where disrupting someone that has their full attention focused only on you is more important than the damage loss. These also tend to be up to player preference more than a strict upgrade. Mario's Fast Fireball better harasses someone in front of you while losing damage and falling coverage. Link's Quickfire Bow trades in range and power for a faster close range option.

Slower with increased power: Pretty much only useful in FFAs due to it's chaotic nature. Attack strings can be interrupted by third parties in FFAs, so the more single-hit nature of Marth's Heavy Blade can have a niche there. For the times where nobody is focusing on you, you not only have the time to fully charge Link's Power Bow but also enough distractions to land a shot without it being avoided/shielded.

Recovery: Add distance, remove hitbox & Recovery: Remove distance, add hitbox: Who doesn't have one of these? These variants are easy to make and very much player preference. Hitboxes make for safer recoveries and distance means you can survive or edgeguard longer.

Cover holes in the moveset: These are harder to define but arguably best show the amount of intentional design of the alternates. Robin's Fire Wall covers space directly in front of him/her. Ness's PSI Magnet is useless when items are off and no opponent has an energy projectile, and that's where PSI Vacuum's comes in. Marth's Crescent Slash intersects with his throw too well to be a happy arc accident.

Do whatever to hit the two alternate quota: I'm going to throw moves like Mr. Game & Watch's Extreme Judge in here. They can't all be winners, and the developers are only human (and under time and budget constraints).

tl:dr - 1) If you look close enough you'll see there's a distinct point to most of the alternate specials 2) Smash is more than 1v1 no items played by dedicated tournament-goers.

-PoptartLord

I think basically the entirety of Jigglypuff's customs fall under the "do whatever" category.

When Smash 4 hacking becomes viable (not if, when; I honestly think the only questions are how long it will take and if it'll ever take off like PM, but I digress), do you think making an effort to address customs both in terms of move balance and accessibility would be worthwhile?

 

[dansal]

Who would you trust to balance the customs?

 

[[BROF]]

As an assistant T.O, I say that they're just cumbersome, a bum to setup, and don't add anything worthwhile to the game.
The "benefits" most of the lower tiers get are so small, it's downright irrelevant.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As an actual TO, I got no problems at all setting up the sets once they were in my 3DS.
In my community they were actually well-received and while they don't add much to the plate, they don't remove much either aside from haters, so it's a minimal win with minimal loss (that matters).

The only reason I don't try Customs anymore is because the Moveset Project is outdated.
Though I may add the "1-6 are the ones listed, 7 is 2222, 8 is 3333, and 9 and 10 are free spaces to use freely and overwrite".

 

[PoptartLord]

I think basically the entirety of Jigglypuff's customs fall under the "do whatever" category.

When Smash 4 hacking becomes viable (not if, when; I honestly think the only questions are how long it will take and if it'll ever take off like PM, but I digress), do you think making an effort to address customs both in terms of move balance and accessibility would be worthwhile?

I think we can all agree that Jigglypuff has.... issues. Everywhere.

At that point accessibility will be easy. Extract save data from Wii U, open data in program on PC, click the unlock button, save, inject, and boom! everything is unlocked instantly and with no RNG. It took me about 5 minutes to do on the 3DS; with the above mentioned level of access it should take 5 minutes to do on the Wii U as well. So yes, accessibility will be worthwhile. But balance, that's a whole other issue. As soon as you change a single property of a single move (or character attribute) it is now a game mod. I can't see any game mod being tournament standard unless it's pretty much a full overhaul. Now unlike Brawl, Smash 4 is really good [as a tournament game] as it stands, so there's no metaphorical vacancy for the next P:M to fill. So no, any form of community balancing through modification will not be worthwhile.

Actually, if there was a mod to disable equipment on custom fighters (or split the toggle in two like those online tournaments) I could see it being useful. It doesn't actually change the game, it's just using the software to enforce a rule instead of using the honor system.

Who would you trust to balance the customs?

Honestly? Nobody. There would always be discord between the game creator's vision and the community balancer's vision. It won't matter how well the combined product turns out.

-PoptartLord

 

[[BROF]]

I mean I myself enjoyed them for a bit, but most of Florida doesnt care much for them. Theyre seen as gimmicky and everybody would just rather play vanilla.
One of our top players is a vanilla Palutena. I wonder how far he would get if the community here cared about customs at all.

 

[blackghost]

I mean I myself enjoyed them for a bit, but most of Florida doesnt care much for them. Theyre seen as gimmicky and everybody would just rather play vanilla.
One of our top players is a vanilla Palutena. I wonder how far he would get if the community here cared about customs at all.

thats wh who i really feel the worst about palutena players. just reading thier boards it obvious they were the lead pushers. thier character will never have its full potential seen and if there is another side event like glotch everyone will forget about it.
If this game ever recives a pm treatment they'd probably just ignore the moves