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What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

Have your opinions changed?


  • Total voters
    861

shinyskarmory

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Honestly, I'm in favor of it, but like the person who posted just after you implied, it will be very difficult to develop a consensus around what characters don't get access to direct upgrades, nevermind which characters merit a direct downgrade.

So speaking realistically, it makes more sense to me to try and find consensus for which moves are considered direct upgrades and which characters (maybe tier-based) shouldn't have access to those upgrades.
I'm fundamentally opposed to character-based custom restrictions. Although forcing Paralyzing Needles on Sheik might nerf her, it would also make our ruleset much more complex than it needs to be.

I'm okay with banning the most egregious customs if we decide that's necessary to keep customs legal, but I don't think it's possible to say that Sheik is only balanced with Paralyzing Needles or that Pikachu is only balanced with standard Tjolt. At best, it's arbitrarily deciding what attributes of a character the player is allowed to use effectively; at worst, it's making an official statement on how the game should be played instead of learning how to play the game as it is.

That, and it produces clarity of ruleset problems which have no easy solution. Let's keep things simple, okay?
 

Terotrous

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That, and it produces clarity of ruleset problems which have no easy solution. Let's keep things simple, okay?
I agree. The game gives you two built-in rulesets. All Customs Legal, or All Customs except Miis illegal. Those are really the only two enforceable rulesets.
 

Piford

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So I heard a lot of people are against customs because it allowed Captawesum to do so well at EVO with a ledge camping villager, but was that Customs or terrible seeding? It looks like the only notable person he had to beat to make Top 32 was Rain, and even if he lost he would've just been on the losers side instead of the winners side. Also, Rain probably didn't know how to deal with that considering he's from Japan where they don't use customs so he had no experience.
 

Ryu_Ken

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Whether you guys are anti or pro customs, I think we can all agree on one thing: we still don't know everything about the Sm4sh meta. There are still characters like Marth, Falco, Link, and Charizard that are good with and without customs, but they haven't been put in a whole lot of action yet. Some characters people opt to neglect like Bowser Jr. and Meta Knight and I bet their are some customs people neglect as well. The game is only about 10 months old, and still nothing has been set in stone (heck, not even a Backroom!).

So my opinion on customs? I'm pro-customs because I believe there's a lot we have yet to discover about them. I believe we can make them work if we have more time with them in the lab and in tourneys. Finally, I believe the meta can advance if we just put more dedication to customs.

Then again, it's really up to you guys. Customs have created a mix bag of opinions. Many have experience with customs and using them in tournaments and many don't. Any argument for or against can go anyway. It's a real mess. I'll still remain pro-custom just because I want to get the most out of the game's meta, but honestly, I think it's hard to make a decision to ban them or keep them seeing how it is.
 

Terotrous

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I am pretty sad that we didn't see Charizard or Falco. I really wanted to see if their changes had any significant impact on their viability.
 

Scarlet Jile

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I'm fundamentally opposed to character-based custom restrictions. Although forcing Paralyzing Needles on Sheik might nerf her, it would also make our ruleset much more complex than it needs to be.

I'm okay with banning the most egregious customs if we decide that's necessary to keep customs legal, but I don't think it's possible to say that Sheik is only balanced with Paralyzing Needles or that Pikachu is only balanced with standard Tjolt. At best, it's arbitrarily deciding what attributes of a character the player is allowed to use effectively; at worst, it's making an official statement on how the game should be played instead of learning how to play the game as it is.

That, and it produces clarity of ruleset problems which have no easy solution. Let's keep things simple, okay?
I understand and appreciate the desire for simplicity, but choosing not to solve perfectly solvable problems for simplicity's sake is backwards thinking.

You don't have to agree that Sheik is better balanced with paralyzing needles, but that's more or less besides the point. There are objective, straightforward ways to determine whether a character merits upgrades, and I think it's worth beginning that investigation.
 

Big-Cat

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I can't help but wonder if customs promotes tunnel vision in the meta. Some moves are considered trash and it becomes about the specials and not the entire tool kit.
 

p1ay6ack

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmgYEDk3A37BzjULXgSGFpw you guys should check out vitaminZK's YoutTube channel. they did an overview of all customs for all charchters, and based their opinions on what custom is an upgrade, overcentralizing, broken, downgrade.

I'm for the idea of creating a banlist for customs, and there being a criteria for which move deserves a ban
1) overcentralizing a charchter's moveset
2) kills at very low percents
3)high reward/low risk
4) another factor?
 

shinyskarmory

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I understand and appreciate the desire for simplicity, but choosing not to solve perfectly solvable problems for simplicity's sake is backwards thinking.

You don't have to agree that Sheik is better balanced with paralyzing needles, but that's more or less besides the point. There are objective, straightforward ways to determine whether a character merits upgrades, and I think it's worth beginning that investigation.
In order to restrict Sheik to Paralyzing Needles only, you'd have to make a few different arguments:

-firstly, that Sheik is brokenly strong when using either of her other two needle options
-secondly, that Sheik is not also broken when using Paralyzing Needles
-finally, that the benefit created by restricting Sheik to Paralyzing Needles is greater than the harm caused by the increase in ruleset complexity.

We should always strive to keep the barrier to entry of competitive play as low as reasonably possible, and instituting complex bans drastically raises the barrier of entry. Therefore, these bans should only be considered if there is a totally gamebreaking interaction (such as Sheik+Game and Watch or Pikachu+G&W teams in doubles).
 

Scarlet Jile

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In actual fact, I find Sheik's customs pretty negligible considering how good the character is by default, so I wouldn't argue that she needs to have any custom move restrictions. My actual stance on this from the beginning (and the very passage that you quoted) is that it isn't realistic to assign downgrades to top tiers for balance purposes.

I will, however, reiterate that my stance is that we should determine (by a clear, measurable frame of reference--like tiers) which characters should be allowed customs that are direct upgrades. What we would actually be doing, if it was up to me, is making about 3 custom movesets for each character that are tournament legal. Since 3 is less than 8 by my calculations, and the reasoning behind these sets is left up to a long and well-informed discussion beforehand, the ruleset would be "choose from these 3 sets" at the tournmanet, which is actually less complicated than it is now.
 
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MVD

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The effectiveness of customs Villager planking is the only reason CaptAwesum made Top 32. The only reason. This coming from someone from Tristate who wants the best for their region and their players to succeed (CaptAwesum is from CT). He had no shot at beating Rain or K9 without customs on. He wouldn't have come even close to beating Larry Lurr with customs off, in fact the only reason Larry Lurr even win was because he was able to reverse time him out. In losers he ran into the Villager ditto, which he straight up lost. This is a player that can't even win his own locals. I think this is actually a pretty notable instance of customs transcending skill. Rain? Sure, chalk it up to matchup inexperience. That's a ruleset incompatibilit because there are no customs Villagers in Japan as they don't play customs, so how exactly was he supposed to practice? Looking at a video and applying information in practice are two very different things. However, if this strategy really is so beatable, you would think that the best player in Japan would be able to adapt and beat this one the fly, no? K9's brother plays Villager, so you had best be sure that he has Villager practice. Larry Lurr was this close to losing a set in R1 of Top 32 bracket in a matchup I'm sure he's prepared for. I think these players are being underestimated in their preparation because no one in their right mind would ignore customs Villager when preparing for EVO. Even considering that it's beatable, customs Villager promotes degenerate play that is devastatingly effective and makes timeouts (and reverse timeouts) more common/optimal. The hypest thing that happened with CaptAwesum was getting reverse timed out by Larry Lurr. He upset two players of a higher caliber, so shouldn't there have been excitement? This degenerate play is bad for spectators AND the metagame.

Another main offender of degenerate play and transcending skill barriers was customs Sonic (HSD, double spring, gravitational Down B). StaticManny puts Dabuz into losers in pools without customs? StaticManny eliminates MVD without customs? Just watch those matches. It's so clear that customs buff Sonic and bring the effectiveness of his camping to another level entirely. HSD puts so much reward on landing spin dash, it's kinda insane. Not only that, the hop at the beginning gives Sonic even more trajectories at which he can jump out and makes him harder to catch. What is Sonic's big flaw in general? Landing. Double spring pretty much invalidates this because he can mix up his landing in so many different ways. With the Gravitational Charge, it's almost like he has normal spin dash as well. The custom moves are why StaticManny was able to camp so much more effectively and pull off these huge upsets. The best proof of this is when StaticManny initially went default against FOW, lost a game, and then switched to his customs and almost took back the set by winning one game and getting down to last hit in game 3. Customs improve Sonic's keep away game drastically, to levels that are unhealthy and bordering degenerate.

I also think we really got to see why Pikachu's customs are ridiculous. Abadango preyed on matchup inexperience and Mario seemed to be a rough matchup, but it was really clear that ESAM's results were artificially boosted due to customs. He could be behind by a lot, but one Thunder Wave connects and that's it. He would have lost to Regi, the no-name G&W from Mexico, without customs. Look at the set, you can't tell me that isn't true. Pikachu's infinite is not only practical but able to be used devastatingly. It's clearly a problem and not something that's healthy for the game.

On the flip side, what exactly did customs help? By this I mean, what results did customs pull for these worse characters that supposedly get so much viable with customs? There was one Mii Brawler, one Palutena, and two Wii Fit Trainers. Mii Brawler and Palutena both have broken custom moves (Hurricane Kick and Lightweight). The only reason they're made that much more viable is because they have those broken moves. Just look at the current implementation of these moves. They aren't healthy moves for any character! You can combo into Hurricane Kick and kill stupidly early. No, not like Boost Kick early, like 50% early. Lightweight's current implementation is broken. You can use it infinitely for free, with pretty much no relevant drawbacks to something that gives Palutena the best mobility in the game. Grab = death starting at like 80%. It'd be fine without infinite Lightweight, but we can't count on that being patched out for the time being. I'm not going to take two characters who have broken moves as a positive for customs. The Wii Fits...I think it's overestimated how much of a benefit customs provide in that case, and they both lost pretty quickly in bracket. Between custom Sonic, custom Pikachu, custom Villager, custom Diddy Up B, and Mii Brawler Hurricane Kick, customs had a greater negative effect than positive effect on the tournament.

Here's the thing: more viable is irrelevant when most of these characters that get better with customs still aren't really tournament viable. More viable is an arbitrary metric that ignores the fact that, in the cast of most characters, customs are not enough to fix their fundamental flaws and truly allow them to compete. I'm wholly unconvinced that the supposed diversity that is supposed to come with customs actually exists. This is the only positive element of custom moves and they completely failed this test.

Could we just ban specific moves? We could. However, based on the fact that it's a logistical nightmare in itself to have customs and a negative overall effect with problematic moves (that applies to multiple characters), it just doesn't make sense to have them.

Manny did beat me with customs
 

JayWon

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Some character's custom moves are indeed pretty questionable in terms of quality. Some moves really just feel half-assed changing some minor properties and slapping on some janky windbox with logic defying physics for sh*ts and giggles.

However,

Palutena's custom moves are exceptional. Her custom moves are delicate and the designs are intricately well thought out. She is under unique circumstance and is the only character with all her custom moves available. I beg the Smash community to at least consider to categorize/treat Palutena like the Mii fighters (regardless of the Custom ON switch).

I truly believe Palutena's crappy normals were designed around Lightweight as the original foundation. For whatever arbitrarily reason, Sakurai ultimately decided with our current 1111 Palutena as the "default" available for online.

Seriously, it's not like Sheik got Lightweight. Lightweight rightfully does justice and characteristically fits Palutena... a GODDESS. But more importantly, Lightweight appropriately complements with her terrible normals harmoniously. There is no reason for Palutena to have a tiny 1 frame active hitbox D-air (voted Palutena's worst move among Palutena forums and that's saying A LOT considering how bad her tilts are) literally making this move way more mechanically impressive than landing the knee of justice and up there with Jiggly's rest (2 active frames). But all her crappy tilts, slow start/end smash attacks, huge end lag on dash grab/attack... all start to make sense when Lightweight is in consideration. In fact, it makes absolute sense and her crappy normals become more than acceptable/tolerable/understandable/balanced with Lightweight. F-tilt/U-tilt actually works well with Lightweight playstyle, and if her D-air was like Falcon-tier that would be absolutely nuts! She becomes super fast and essentially fly but any of these whiffed moves (all tilts, all smashes, landing with u-air, dash attack, dash grab, autoreticle/explosive flame) COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY halts her momentum giving you ample time to punish HARD with a charged smash attack.

Yes, Lightweight is spectacular! Not only as a move, but for spectators and brings something completely unique to the competitive meta. Is it overpowered? That is impossible for you or me to objectively claim Lightweight is OP as fact. But I will say this. She receives more damage under Lightweight. Lightweight last for 10 seconds; try not to get grabbed for 10 seconds (especially around 45-55% for early downthrow n-air u-air, and again ~95%+ for practically guaranteed downthrow u-air kill (pretty much at the mercy of our reaction time and execution)). Then there is 5 seconds of half jump/speed. Then there is 10 second cooldown before she can use Lightweight again. However, yes, Lightweight is literally broken due to the platform glitch that allows Palutena to refresh her Lightweight infinitely. It's definitely fair to criticize Lightweight because of this infinite. Not much to say but If you are playing on a stage like Smashville, be wary of the platform location & punish her for trying to land on the platform. Easier said then done of course. I think Sakurai and his team are aware of the infinite Lightweight but I don't think they will patch it out unless Lightweight gets a big spotlight and becomes more of a mainstream issue.


As a Pikachu main, I am totally fine banning Pikachu's Heavyskull Bash. Frame 4, 32% max damage, kills Bowser (heaviest) at 37% is straight up overpowered, clearly deviates far from the norm, and is just absurd to give to a character like Pikachu even more so with his paralyzing jolts.

As as Palutena main, please don't kill her future guys. Palutena's future is honestly through her customs and because of that I just cannot let the Smash community to completely all or nothing ban customs. Sakurai particularly gave Palutena special treatment encouraging us to use her customs at the start. If anything she is in a greyer area of similar to whether or not Mii Fighters customizability should be legal. I am aware of the argument that at least for the Mii Fighter's they don't have to switch "Custom ON". And flipping "Custom ON" only for Palutena is indeed controversial. But some custom moves are simply just flat out ridiculous and heavily deserves questioning. Hence I am on the side of encouraging the smash community to find a system to ban certain custom moves, because completely eradicating 400+ moves, 3 full characters, and certain character's potential future/viability is more unacceptably ridiculous.

I beg the Smash community to not take the easy way out and do All or Nothing regardless of how "impossible" it seems. For the most part, I feel like the Smash community already has good instinctive intuition on which custom moves are too janky/stupid/OP that is beyond objective logic. When does a move become OP? If Sheik's F-air was frame 1 and did 45% each hit that's clearly OP. What if it did 18%? 14%? 11%? What if it was frame 4? Point is, the nature of balancing is never objective; when we discuss on banning certain custom moves saying what is fair/unfair will ALL be subjective but yet still for the most part the community will collectively intuitively/instinctively know what isn't "right". Balancing a fighting game is intrinsically from the mind of subjective human mind named Sakurai and his decisions are not protected from questioning! If he was an absolute objective God with perfect unquestionable balance and all these mere mortals are wanting customs because they do not know any better of the absolute truth then yeah we really should just play the default game how it is. We have the power to make Smash 4 better (Villager tree sapling does not make Smash 4 better). It requires work and lots of arguing but making things better and squeezing out the full potential in something when there's nothing to lose is always worth it.

For now, as a start, I think it's way easier to discuss which characters should totally be allowed to use customs rather than discuss banning. I hope we can all unanimously agree at least for sure Ganondorf/Bowser should totally be allowed to use customs! Yeah?
 
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PMMikey

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I'm sure it has been said before, I just don't like customs because not all the characters benefit from them. Obviously some characters benefit more from them and even raise their place in the tiers. I mean yeah people could just adapt and learn like Zero, but not everybody is Zero.
 

Hippieslayer

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...and some characters are better than others in default too, life ain't fair. Why do you think that customs have to be? Please stop treating customs with arguments that would never be considered for other stuff.

Although thats what's being done in general. The usual saying is legal until proven broken. With customs it's the reverse.
 

Teshie U

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Some character's custom moves are indeed pretty questionable in terms of quality. Some moves really just feel half-***** changing some minor properties and slapping on some janky windbox with logic defying physics for sh*ts and giggles.

However,

Palutena's custom moves are exceptional. Her custom moves are delicate and the designs are intricately well thought out. She is under unique circumstance and is the only character with all her custom moves available. I beg the Smash community to at least consider to categorize/treat Palutena like the Mii fighters (regardless of the Custom ON switch).

I truly believe Palutena's crappy normals were designed around Lightweight as the original foundation. For whatever arbitrarily reason, Sakurai ultimately decided with our current 1111 Palutena as the "default" available for online.

Seriously, it's not like Sheik got Lightweight. Lightweight rightfully does justice and characteristically fits Palutena... a GODDESS. But more importantly, Lightweight appropriately complements with her terrible normals harmoniously. There is no reason for Palutena to have a tiny 1 frame active hitbox D-air (voted Palutena's worst move among Palutena forums and that's saying A LOT considering how bad her tilts are) literally making this move way more mechanically impressive than landing the knee of justice and up there with Jiggly's rest (2 active frames). But all her crappy tilts, slow start/end smash attacks, huge end lag on dash grab/attack... all start to make sense when Lightweight is in consideration. In fact, it makes absolute sense and her crappy normals become more than acceptable/tolerable/understandable/balanced with Lightweight. F-tilt/U-tilt actually works well with Lightweight playstyle, and if her D-air was like Falcon-tier that would be absolutely nuts! She becomes super fast and essentially fly but any of these whiffed moves (all tilts, all smashes, landing with u-air, dash attack, dash grab, autoreticle/explosive flame) COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY halts her momentum giving you ample time to punish HARD with a charged smash attack.

Yes, Lightweight is spectacular! Not only as a move, but for spectators and brings something completely unique to the competitive meta. Is it overpowered? That is impossible for you or me to objectively claim Lightweight is OP as fact. But I will say this. She receives more damage under Lightweight. Lightweight last for 10 seconds; try not to get grabbed for 10 seconds (especially around 45-55% for early downthrow n-air u-air, and again ~95%+ for practically guaranteed downthrow u-air kill (pretty much at the mercy of our reaction time and execution)). Then there is 5 seconds of half jump/speed. Then there is 10 second cooldown before she can use Lightweight again. However, yes, Lightweight is literally broken due to the platform glitch that allows Palutena to refresh her Lightweight infinitely. It's definitely fair to criticize Lightweight because of this infinite. Not much to say but If you are playing on a stage like Smashville, be wary of the platform location & punish her for trying to land on the platform. Easier said then done of course. I think Sakurai and his team are aware of the infinite Lightweight but I don't think they will patch it out unless Lightweight gets a big spotlight and becomes more of a mainstream issue.


As a Pikachu main, I am totally fine banning Pikachu's Heavyskull Bash. Frame 4, 32% max damage, kills Bowser (heaviest) at 37% is straight up overpowered, clearly deviates far from the norm, and is just absurd to give to a character like Pikachu even more so with his paralyzing jolts.

As as Palutena main, please don't kill her future guys. Palutena's future is honestly through her customs and because of that I just cannot let the Smash community to completely all or nothing ban customs. Sakurai particularly gave Palutena special treatment encouraging us to use her customs at the start. If anything she is in a greyer area of similar to whether or not Mii Fighters customizability should be legal. I am aware of the argument that at least for the Mii Fighter's they don't have to switch "Custom ON". And flipping "Custom ON" only for Palutena is indeed controversial. But some custom moves are simply just flat out ridiculous and heavily deserves questioning. Hence I am on the side of encouraging the smash community to find a system to ban certain custom moves, because completely eradicating 400+ moves, 3 full characters, and certain character's potential future/viability is more unacceptably ridiculous.

I beg the Smash community to not take the easy way out and do All or Nothing regardless of how "impossible" it seems. For the most part, I feel like the Smash community already has good instinctive intuition on which custom moves are too janky/stupid/OP that is beyond objective logic. When does a move become OP? If Sheik's F-air was frame 1 and did 45% each hit that's clearly OP. What if it did 18%? 14%? 11%? What if it was frame 4? Point is, the nature of balancing is never objective; when we discuss on banning certain custom moves saying what is fair/unfair will ALL be subjective but yet still for the most part the community will collectively intuitively/instinctively know what isn't "right". Balancing a fighting game is intrinsically from the mind of subjective human mind named Sakurai and his decisions are not protected from questioning! If he was an absolute objective God with perfect unquestionable balance and all these mere mortals are wanting customs because they do not know any better of the absolute truth then yeah we really should just play the default game how it is. We have the power to make Smash 4 better (Villager tree sapling does not make Smash 4 better). It requires work and lots of arguing but making things better and squeezing out the full potential in something when there's nothing to lose is always worth it.

For now, as a start, I think it's way easier to discuss which characters should totally be allowed to use customs rather than discuss banning. I hope we can all unanimously agree at least for sure Ganondorf/Bowser should totally be allowed to use customs! Yeah?
Palutena's offensive isn't completely oppressive with lightweight (even with the glitch), but she becomes far more mobile than Sonic with her custom specials. The problem with lightweight isn't "she might approach me with all that speed!", its the obvious run away factor that lets her ignore disadvantaged and neutral vs most of the cast simply because they cant catch her.
 

Kaladin

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(If you've been reading my posts up until this point, you will know that I am strictly pro-customs on the grounds of logical consistency)

I believe that there is one condition under which banning a specific custom move should be considered: if it is proven, both through theorycrafting and TOURNAMENT RESULTS that when you flip the custom switch, a character becomes Brawl MK: no negative or even matchups against any of the (customs on) cast. If you can prove to me with results that HSB makes Pika S+ tier, we might have a discussion. Until then, well, go back and read my other posts :p
 

T4ylor

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People have successfully used the "it's not fair" argument to keep Miis and/or their alternate specials out of customs off tournaments so I see no reason we can't say the same to keep them out entirely~

This whole thing is entirely subjective and pretty much comes down to which meta you find more fun. Vanilla happens to be better for me.
 
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DunnoBro

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IMO Palutena is like custom DK viable. Has some ridiculous stuff but if they know the matchup, it becomes obvious she's still a good but pretty flawed character.

The fact you can mix up your DI so much to ruin her throw combos, along with how hard it is for her to get a grab or even survive in neutral makes her seem pretty unwiedly overall. I watch aerolink and play against the default palutena main who lives with Boss a lot. Like Mii brawler, I thought her stuff was pretty broken at first but god damn do they have some flaws.

The lightweight infinite doesn't really do anything but let her camp in some positions generally not applicable in the neutral. Sonic being able to shield-cancel spindash is waaaaay more problematic imo.
 
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Teshie U

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IMO Palutena is like custom DK viable. Has some ridiculous stuff but if they know the matchup, it becomes obvious she's still a good but pretty flawed character.

The fact you can mix up your DI so much to ruin her throw combos, along with how hard it is for her to get a grab or even survive in neutral makes her seem pretty unwiedly overall. I watch aerolink and play against the default palutena main who lives with Boss a lot.

The lightweight infinite doesn't really do anything but let her camp in some positions generally not applicable in the neutral. Sonic being able to shield-cancel spindash is waaaaay more problematic imo.
Sonic is annoying, but at least his ground game is offset by his poor aerial mobility. Once he has actually committed to even releasing a spindash, he goes into a disadvantaged state if it doesn't hit.

There isn't much most of the cast can do about super speed/lightweight bair. Palutena even with customs is pretty lacking in depth and isn't adding a viable character, just a barrier that might invalidate slower characters.
 

Hippieslayer

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I cannot fathom this argument. Top players are continuing to win. Results did not change in top 8 due to customs being on and screwing them over or something. It's not like every top player is against customs due to this selfish desire to remain at the top or something...

Optimal sets seems really counterproductive. We already see arguments over what the best sets are, people not having their set available, customs on, customs off, some customs banned and so on. Adding yet another faction that will only cause more arguments is just... no.

I'm also confused at the current "customs didn't break EVO so they're fine" argument going on right now. Like, did anybody really believe some DK was going to win the tournament? Of course not, if customs were truly that broken then this wouldn't even be a discussion.

This is a circular argument due to the subjective nature of the custom metagame. Being "more interesting", "more jank" or whatever else is all subjective. The only objective comparisons that can be made are results - I can't find the top 32 results right now but I'm seeing characters' placements being chalked up to customs allowing them to place well which is an insult to the players along with a weird argument in general. Customs were on and Palutena did well. Customs were off at CEO and Mii Swordsman did well. Are you going to tell me that Swordsman was only there because of Customs off? Of course not, we all know he's better with Customs - he was there because Trela is really good at this game. Palutena becomes better with Customs - that much is pretty obvious. I just don't think there are characters that are straight up unviable without Customs before, just take more work. Much more work, granted.

So yeah basically what I'm saying is comparing results is also pretty hard to do objectively - if a Zelda does well in Customs off, it's just as easy to say "LOOK AT THIS DIVERSITY FROM CUSTOMS OFF". I'm just not seeing this crazy new diversity EVO was apparently supposed to bring. Nothing changed and I don't see how that makes the argument go "yeah kay customs can stay then as nothing went wrong" but nothing going wrong doesn't mean there are literally only positives.
EDIT: Can't make paragraphs, they disappear when I post, editing doesn't work either, sigh sorry.
What is hard to fathom about it? It wasn't an argument either, it was more of a statement. Customs have never been the standard, they are an addition to the game rather than an integral part of it -thanks to nintendo and a player base that cares about what nintendo intends for god knows why- and since this is what they are considered to be they may be argued against in ways which no one would were the subject an integral part of the game and not just an addition. Thus they may be banned, thus top players want them banned, top players don't play custom reliant characters for the same reason: they don't want to be good with something that might get snatched out of their hands. Top players will never give customs a chance unless they become the standard and are expected to remain so. They won't practice for something which may end up being banned either, or in the least are reluctant to do so. The effect is they tend to be suboptimal at handling customs due to a lack of knowledge on their part; customs appear jank to them because they are suboptimal at handling them, and thus they dislike customs. Nothing weird about that. Of course I'm generalizing, this is not the case with all top players.How do you know results are the same in customs on tournaments? Nakat probably disagrees, as does Rain. Whether those would have made top 8 if customs where off is by no means certain, but you can hardly say that the top 8 might not have looked different if customs were off; brackets would've looked different, a lot of stuff would've been different in some way.Characters placing because customs allow them to is not an insult to anyone. Its an effect of customs having never been fully implemented and always expected to die via banning sooner or later. Captain Awesome was carried by the ignorance of his opponents moreso than the inherent power of his customs reliant strategy.I disagree on there not being characters which are straight up unviable without customs, IMO there are unviable characters both with and without customs, hard work can only take you so far. Sure Nairo can beat good people with Zelda, but that's because people don't know how to play against her since the only time you need to know how to fight Zelda (or any other unviable crap character) is when she's in the hands of a top player who know how to play her, and that almost never happens.
 
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Balgorxz

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I am pretty sad that we didn't see Charizard or Falco. I really wanted to see if their changes had any significant impact on their viability.
what are you talking about they were 2 charizards on top 32 and keitaro almost made it out of pools just by playing falco in every match.
 

DunnoBro

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Sonic is annoying, but at least his ground game is offset by his poor aerial mobility. Once he has actually committed to even releasing a spindash, he goes into a disadvantaged state if it doesn't hit,

There isn't much most of the cast can do about super speed/lightweight bair. Palutena even with customs is pretty lacking in depth and isn't adding a viable character, just a barrier that might invalidate slower characters.
Lol And sonic doesn't invalidate characters? Superspeed is way more vulnerable than spindash, she gets straight stuffed out much harder since she can't shield cancel it, has no invincibility frames, and is a much bigger hurtbox.

How much have you played against these characters?

Also custom palutena has plenty depth, her kill throws and set-ups are waaayy more interactive and complex than anything the likes of mario or luigi have.

Actual tournament player here, don't speak for all of us.
 
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neohopeSTF

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Lol And sonic doesn't invalidate characters? Superspeed is way more vulnerable than spindash, she gets straight stuffed out much harder since she can't shield cancel it, has no invincibility frames, and is a much bigger hurtbox.

How much have you played against these characters?

Also custom palutena has plenty depth, her kill throws and set-ups are waaayy more interactive than anything the likes of mario or luigi have.



Actual tournament player here, don't speak for all of us.
Majority rules. EVO was the biggest Smash 4 tournament, and it looks like many of them didn't like customs.
 

Hippieslayer

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Majority rules. EVO was the biggest Smash 4 tournament, and it looks like many of them didn't like customs.
A majority dislike Sonic too, lets ban him and everything else that a majority dislikes or what? Can you please at least try. And the matter isn't subjective, it is not a matter of which meta you happen to prefer, or rather it is, but it shouldn't be. In all other fighting games -including past smash games- the saying goes "keep it legal until its been proven banworthy". That's how you keep a competitive community healthy, that's how you keep everything people dislike or don't want to learn to handle from getting banned. In brawl you had to learn to deal with metaknight and ice climbers, in melee you had to learn to deal with fox, all things which are harder to do than learning to deal with customs. The only reason customs are not legal is because they weren't considered a part of the game from the get go, which is only because they weren't unlocked from the get go. Having customs be banned IS letting Nintendo decide the rules, and it does go against all reason. At least until someone can come up with a sensible argument that is not simply an appeal to authority and/or either factually or logically unsound. People can dislike customs all they want, thats cool, wanting the rules to be dictated on the basis of what they dislike is not cool. Especially when its obvious as daylight that the reason customs are jankier than regular specials is that people don't know them. Its a neat little self fulfilling prophecy.
 
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DunnoBro

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If it was possible to get sonic, rosalina, etc invalidated from competitive smash via soft-bans like the ones with customs do, you can bet the majority of players would do it. This is because the majority of players, and humans, are self-centered scrubs.
 

Hippieslayer

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Indeed, so please explain why its okay to ban customs using arguments that would never suffice for the banning of anything else? Why is it okay to break the rules which govern competitive gaming in general in the case of customs?
 

neohopeSTF

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It also says TOs think they are hassle and its worth noting not many areas outside of the US even use customs.
 

DunnoBro

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It also says TOs think they are hassle and its worth noting not many areas outside of the US even use customs.
TOs think 3-stock is a hassle too. It's something to consider, but not to the point it really matters in the legality discussion.

And japan has an entire different stage list and meta, always has. And only like 10-20 players come from there a few times a year, I refuse to let so few people shape the meta for thousands.

For real though, quit relying on others to make your argument for you. This **** has been discussed a million times, either bring up new points of contention or pursue them. Don't just regurgitate what the talking heads of your like-mindedness spout.
 
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Ryu_Ken

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We have a good bit, but it seems like people want to substitute reals with feels in regards to actually determining if customs are bad or not.
That's what I mean. We would have a LOT more cold, hard facts if people focused more on seeing the reals more than the feels. Many of the customs aren't just "jank": they have their flaws. You can't just "spam" them: you need to be smart with them. People need to see that. Some don't, and that's when we have these circular arguments. The facts ARE there: we just need to expose them.
 
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Teshie U

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Lol And sonic doesn't invalidate characters? Superspeed is way more vulnerable than spindash, she gets straight stuffed out much harder since she can't shield cancel it, has no invincibility frames, and is a much bigger hurtbox.

How much have you played against these characters?

Also custom palutena has plenty depth, her kill throws and set-ups are waaayy more interactive and complex than anything the likes of mario or luigi have.



Actual tournament player here, don't speak for all of us.
Superspeed cancelled in the back air doesn't have really any risk if you opponent isn't fast enough to reach your landing site. Back air IS invincible.

Palutena is basically just Brawl DDD. A major hindrance and CP character vs most of the cast while getting stomped by the upper part of the cast. If customs made her as well rounded and strong as Sonic and created another actual viable character I could see some value there, but she (and DK) are just added gatekeepers for characters that might have a decent shot at Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina etc.

Now I'm sure thats not a good reason to ban her, I'm just pointing out that she is no major casualty. I'm not gonna shed any tears for the Palutena players that are going to place 25th instead of 9th at their local events.


The biggest issue I see with customs is that they clearly aren't being balanced. If we could take a look at Sonic again, the developers clearly looked back at the character and thought "a character this fast and tricky probably shouldn't be KOing from grabs and smashes so early, lets adjust this". We saw nerfs to back throw, upsmash, fsmash (this thing used to be obscenely safe on shield). Meanwhile the very obvious glitch with lightweight (the main reason it IS polarizing and broken right now) hasn't been addressed.

If you look at the biggest issues for vanilla since the game released you have a pretty big list of things that got re-balanced to be more fair.
-Luma behavior and respawn timer
-Sonic overbearing power on single moves for KOing
-Sheik's KO power
-Diddy Kong's KO power and damage output
-Villager flying under the stage repeatedly

-Various under-powered character getting a list of buffs.


When Sakurai stated we weren't to expect any balance changes half year ago I looked at the game and thought "well customs have alot of dumb stuff, but default does too". Thats not really as true anymore. I definitely bought into the mindset that the weakest characters in the cast deserves a broken move or two to be a threat. But here we are half a dozen patches later and we have to think a little about this.

What happens when Palutena, DK, Samus, Charizard etc. start to receive buffs to their normal movesets without their customs being toned down? I'm aware these characters aren't there yet, but there is a clear trend here that the developers care how these characters function without custom and have almost no interest in how they function with customs.

If a patch dropped with fixes for infinite lightweight, Dongnado and the various "power versions" of moves that aren't as hard to land as the designers thought, I'd have more hope for customs.
 

Balgorxz

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Superspeed cancelled in the back air doesn't have really any risk if you opponent isn't fast enough to reach your landing site. Back air IS invincible.

Palutena is basically just Brawl DDD. A major hindrance and CP character vs most of the cast while getting stomped by the upper part of the cast. If customs made her as well rounded and strong as Sonic and created another actual viable character I could see some value there, but she (and DK) are just added gatekeepers for characters that might have a decent shot at Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina etc.

Now I'm sure thats not a good reason to ban her, I'm just pointing out that she is no major casualty. I'm not gonna shed any tears for the Palutena players that are going to place 25th instead of 9th at their local events.


The biggest issue I see with customs is that they clearly aren't being balanced. If we could take a look at Sonic again, the developers clearly looked back at the character and thought "a character this fast and tricky probably shouldn't be KOing from grabs and smashes so early, lets adjust this". We saw nerfs to back throw, upsmash, fsmash (this thing used to be obscenely safe on shield). Meanwhile the very obvious glitch with lightweight (the main reason it IS polarizing and broken right now) hasn't been addressed.

If you look at the biggest issues for vanilla since the game released you have a pretty big list of things that got re-balanced to be more fair.
-Luma behavior and respawn timer
-Sonic overbearing power on single moves for KOing
-Sheik's KO power
-Diddy Kong's KO power and damage output
-Villager flying under the stage repeatedly

-Various under-powered character getting a list of buffs.


When Sakurai stated we weren't to expect any balance changes half year ago I looked at the game and thought "well customs have alot of dumb stuff, but default does too". Thats not really as true anymore. I definitely bought into the mindset that the weakest characters in the cast deserves a broken move or two to be a threat. But here we are half a dozen patches later and we have to think a little about this.

What happens when Palutena, DK, Samus, Charizard etc. start to receive buffs to their normal movesets without their customs being toned down? I'm aware these characters aren't there yet, but there is a clear trend here that the developers care how these characters function without custom and have almost no interest in how they function with customs.

If a patch dropped with fixes for infinite lightweight, Dongnado and the various "power versions" of moves that aren't as hard to land as the designers thought, I'd have more hope for customs.
well customs have been changed every patch, like charizard customB and olimar bugged down special.
the thing is that they haven't competitively patch them because japan isn't playing with them, FG is not an excuse because mii fighters have been changed every patch even when they aren't available in FG so the developers are watching the japanese competitive scene for patches(one of the reasons greninja was heavily nerfed in the early stage of the game), japan are the only ones that can make the devs patch the broken customs.
 
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Kaladin

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Someone please show me a custom move or glitch, or mii configuration that makes that character superior to Sheik/Pika in a MU spread sense. I'm waiting...



*crickets*






Right.

The argument that low tiers/heavies will have their normals buffed and their customs unchanged is interesting, but simply does not hold water. Why? Unless Sakurai gives heavies/bad characters a good grab game, improved mobility, and better frame data (more buffed frame data than Ike would be necessary) their inherent charactaristics will prevent them from being good. Why have heavies never been good in any smash game? Slow normals. Sakurai balances for 4 player free for all. That makes it so he will never buff a heavy to the point of being top 4 at a national viable. Probably not even top 8.

But lets say he did. Why is this bad? Even if a heavy is buffed to sheik tier... Well, now we have a heavy in sheik tier. Is anyone really complaining about that?

All these hypothetical slippery slopes, or arguments about jank/overcentralization simply ignore results and precedent.
 

DunnoBro

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Superspeed cancelled in the back air doesn't have really any risk if you opponent isn't fast enough to reach your landing site. Back air IS invincible.
Stopped reading here since I don't want to seriously discuss a character with such poor tournament performance as problematic, but spindash also has very little risk against most characters shields when used properly. Which is MUCH easier to do than proper super speed useage.

And to begin with, I don't think safe-on-shield moves are necessarily a problem.
The biggest issue I see with customs is that they clearly aren't being balanced.

This I can agree with on many levels, however it isn't that they "Aren't clearly being balanced" it's that "They clearly haven't been balanced to an acceptable point yet"

They clearly have been balanced in the past, the major deciding factor for me is if they continue, and how good a job they do of it. If they can't function without for glory and japanese data to go off of like default does, then they likely will have to go, or we will have to balance things ourselves. A less than ideal outcome, but more than doable. Especially with the restrictions in place already.
 
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Scarlet Jile

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Even if you had irrefutable evidence that 50% of customs were TERRIBLE for Smash 4, you would still fail to contend with the fact that some customs are genuinely great. Dark Fists is precisely the kind of move Ganon needs to become more of a legitimate threat while not over-centralizing the character around that move.

Kirby and Ike become legitimately more versatile and high-tier contenders. Link has great options. Duck Hunt Dog has great options. Custom moves have the potential improve the game if executed intelligently.
 
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