What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Doruge]

Naming moves with huge endlag and saying "LOOK AT THIS COMPARED TO CUSTOMS" is not a valid argument.

Are you trying to say that HSB doesn't have huge endlag? Because it does.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Why ban all of them on the grounds of jank if you won't ban default on those grounds?

Because in the situation you described only Pikachu was a problem and even then its a situation that hasn't happened so I don't know why you keep dragging this out. It seems pretty obvious that customs weren't intended for competitive play by the fact that DLC characters don't have any, they haven't been balanced(HELLO LIGHTWEIGHT GLITCH, CAPS BECAUSE OBVIOUS), they are lumped with equipment, something not meant to be competitive.

 

[Doruge]

It seems pretty obvious that customs weren't intended for competitive play

As soon as an anti-custom person resorts to saying this, they've already lost the argument.

 

[Kaladin]

Because in the situation you described only Pikachu was a problem and even then its a situation that hasn't happened so I don't know why you keep dragging this out. It seems pretty obvious that customs weren't intended for competitive play by the fact that DLC characters don't have any, they haven't been balanced(HELLO LIGHTWEIGHT GLITCH, CAPS BECAUSE OBVIOUS), they are lumped with equipment, something not meant to be competitive.

Sakurai didn't intend smash to be competative. We've never cared what was intended.

(All of melee play, anybody?)

 

[neohopeSTF]

As soon as an anti-custom person resorts to saying this, they've already lost the argument.

I'm saying their problems won't be balanced. Also we are apart of the same community, while I am obvious "anti-custom" I would like to distance ourselves from that "us vs them" mentality.

 

[Kaladin]

I'm saying their problems won't be balanced. Also we are apart of the same community, while I am obvious "anti-custom" I would like to distance ourselves from that "us vs them" mentality.

Burning spindash was patched.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Burning spindash was patched.

What was patched(percent? a glitch?)? Also one custom that isn't even used isn't enough evidence that customs will be fixed when infinite lightweight is still there.

 

[Skarfelt]

Are you trying to say that HSB doesn't have huge endlag? Because it does.

It's not even comparable to Zero Suit's Up B, Zelda's Up B etc.

I don't reeeaaally care about HSB if you rad my last post - I personally dislike how it can kill out of neutral B but I also dislike how Luigi can kill out of a grab. It's just a thing in the game that I'm not letting impact my views on customs which are related to logistics and encouraging integration between scenes/developing the new playerbase.

 

[Kaladin]

What was patched(percent? a glitch?)? Also one custom that isn't even used isn't enough evidence that customs will be fixed when infinite lightweight is still there.

Both. It had an intangibility glitch along with a ton of damae before it was patched. Further, it WAS the most used custom side B before it was patched because of that.

Get yer **** straight.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Both. It had an intangibility glitch along with a ton of damae before it was patched. Further, it WAS the most used custom side B before it was patched because of that.

Get yer **** straight.

So one custom has been fixed. My point still stands that Infinite Lightweight hasn't been fixed. There has been nothing else to suggest things like Wind Kong or HSB will fixed either. Just curious what patch was it fixed and do you have a video of the burning spin dash glitch?

 

[Doruge]

So one custom has been fixed. My point still stands that Infinite Lightweight hasn't been fixed. There has been nothing else to suggest things like Wind Kong or HSB will fixed either. Just curious what patch was it fixed and do you have a video of the burning spin dash glitch?

Customs have been tweaked in every patch. Not that it matters, AT ALL, because we don't base rulesets off of what gets patched and what doesn't.

 

[elitegrovyle]

you forgot to mention Dragon rushes damage nerf from 15% to 11% on patch 1.0.4

 

[neohopeSTF]

Customs have been tweaked in every patch. Not that it matters, AT ALL, because we don't base rulesets off of what gets patched and what doesn't.

Do you have a list of what got patched?

 

[KCsmash]

Exactly. So why ban the custom?

I remember something about an interview with Sakurai where it was stated that the team hasn't focused much on balancing custom moves. The default moves have been more closely observed and balanced to a bigger extent.

 

[Kaladin]

I remember something about an interview with Sakurai where it was stated that the team hasn't focused much on balancing custom moves. The default moves have been more closely observed and balanced to a bigger extent.

Since when does what Sakurai do or doesn'r do impact our rulesets? I mean, look at tripping in Brawl...

 

[Unknownkid]

I remember something about an interview with Sakurai where it was stated that the team hasn't focused much on balancing custom moves. The default moves have been more closely observed and balanced to a bigger extent.

That was translated incorrect apparently or else Dragon Rush, ZSS custom moves, and Link's Power Arrow would have been patched when the Wii U version came out.

Edit: We are under the impression Sakurai is talking about customization as a whole (Custom Moves + Equipments) while the community only desires the special moves portion which has be getting patched in every patch update.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Since when does what Sakurai do or doesn'r do impact our rulesets? I mean, look at tripping in Brawl...

Its not really about if Sakurai says they're competitive or not its about can we expect these to be fixed. This discussion really won't go anywhere until August, I realized.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

I've always been on a fence about them, but now I'm honestly more in favor of them.

 

[Tinkerer]

Just because one tournament went OK doesn't mean customs as a whole are OK. Esam's Pikachu proved how stupid they are killing with HSB at 40. Would CaptAwesum even make it out of pools without customs? In the short term customs look good but in the long term they are something that could be dangerous to the game.

A lot of tournaments went ok. EVO isn't the only place customs have been ran. All overhyped, overly anxiously watched, supposedly game-destroying customs have been tested and tried and in general they have either been found strategies against (ledge camp Villager, Wind Kong), or are just an extension of good play (HSB Pika, Speed Bike Wario). I'm not really worried about them being dangerous to the game as I was at, say, Rosalina being the dominant character back in the 3DS days, which could really have bombed things.

 

[neohopeSTF]

All the top players seem to say no customs. They know whats up and I'm more inclined to side with them. EDIT: Sorry if this sounds like I don't care about anyone else's opinion, I'm just inclined to agree with what top players feel about customs because they are looking at the meta in the long term.

 

[Unknownkid]

Do you have a list of what got patched?

Here you go I doubt it will change your mind.

I am for Customs but I want HSB ban and maybe Villager's Explosive Balloon trip. Wind Kong is child play and have to dedicated to Mii Brawler to use Helicopter Kick properly. Esam's performance was terrible. I mean seriously... let's just spamming HSB until it works. I am glad he didn't win. I think is funny that WindKong didn't make to top 32. What happen there?

 

[blinkingpigs]

i guess i'm for customs, but as a villager main i've gotta say i want the trip sapling / explosive balloons combo OUT. you get one or the other

 

[neohopeSTF]

Here you go I doubt it will change your mind.

I am for Customs but I want HSB ban and maybe Villager's Explosive Balloon trip. Wind Kong is child play and have to dedicated to Mii Brawler to use Helicopter Kick properly. Esam's performance was terrible. I mean seriously... let's just spamming HSB until it works. I am glad he didn't win. I think is funny that WindKong didn't make to top 32. What happen there?

Something I noticed is that some of the customs that got changed, thier vanilla move got changed. More of a change to the move universally than to the specific custom. Also about WindKong was DKWill there? He is the only high level DK I know.

 

[Unknownkid]

Something I noticed is that some of the customs that got changed, thier vanilla move got changed. More of a change to the move universally than to the specific custom. Also about WindKong was DKWill there? He is the only high level DK I know.

There was a Japan Wind Kong player that rekt a Sheik player on stream. That was amazing to watch.

 

[Big-Cat]

i guess i'm for customs, but as a villager main i've gotta say i want the trip sapling / explosive balloons combo OUT. you get one or the other

You do that and you start having a TCG restriction list - sort of. These customs are banned, you can only use one of these two customs at a time, etc. It's overly complicated and there's no "governing body" to serve as an authority on the matter.

 

[blinkingpigs]

You do that and you start having a TCG restriction list - sort of. These customs are banned, you can only use one of these two customs at a time, etc. It's overly complicated and there's no "governing body" to serve as an authority on the matter.

what you're saying is some version of the "slippery slope" argument and while i get what you're saying it's easy to see which things are broken

 

[neohopeSTF]

what you're saying is some version of the "slippery slope" argument and while i get what you're saying it's easy to see which things are broken

The problem is there will be arguements on what is overpowered, and it will make things overly complicated or just lead to a slippery slope of banning customs left and right.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

All the top players seem to say no customs. They know whats up and I'm more inclined to side with them. EDIT: Sorry if this sounds like I don't care about anyone else's opinion, I'm just inclined to agree with what top players feel about customs because they are looking at the meta in the long term.

You know, I know Zero said "All the top players" but I seem to recall plenty of "top players" who also are ok with customs. It's more complex than just all of them rejecting it. It's mostly that the anti-customs top players are the most vocal against them.

 

[neohopeSTF]

You know, I know Zero said "All the top players" but I seem to recall plenty of "top players" who also are ok with customs. It's more complex than just all of them rejecting it. It's mostly that the anti-customs top players are the most vocal against them.

I've seen ZeRo Esam and Dabuz say customs are bad at least out of the EVO Top 8. Not all I'll admit but they and some other guys def are against them. I haven't really seen a top player be in favor of customs tbh.

 

[[Deuce]]

Doesn't change the fact with customs he attempted time outs.

You must've not seen static manny play before then. He timed out Anti as well at CEO which was customs off tournament.

 

[Kurri ★]

I've seen ZeRo Esam and Dabuz say customs are bad at least out of the EVO Top 8. Not all I'll admit but they and some other guys def are against them. I haven't really seen a top player be in favor of customs tbh.

Granted the burden of proof does fall upon those who claim it's there, have not seen does not equate to does not exist.

 

[[Deuce]]

It's not uncommon for any player to further their own agenda. Some players, even top level ones, will be against customs because they do not want to study up on the matchups. Some players will be for customs because they have in fact used them.

And why is the cutoff for top players randomly at top 8 and not 32 or even wider? In a 1500+ man tournament? Because I'm pretty sure I saw some wii fit trainers, a G&W, and some more; somehow I guess their opinions hold no water either


I was originally for customs back in march, became against customs last month due to the infinites jank, but am becoming pro customs again because it was clearly shown that there were healthy answers to some "toxic" tactics

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I think pretty much all complaints regarding customs have been thrown out the window with this EVO turnout. The Grand Finals consisted of two vanilla characters (Sheik & Diddy), and there wasn't a single DK or Villager in Top 8, making the already flimsy argument that customs carry players null & void. Multiple Sonics also ate **** even with the oh-so-popular custom moves Sonic has at his disposal, which was pretty satisfying to see. And I don't think I even need to go over the absurdity of the idea that all customs are "jank".

EVO 2015 just goes to show that skill & adaptation are the most important factors in being victorious. Things like the Dongcopter, exploding balloons, and a burying Spin Dash aren't infallible and can be overcome through matchup knowledge. They're still annoying, yes, but I say it's worth putting up with a few annoying customs to reap the benefits of the (much larger amount of) non-annoying customs. I mean, really, if the Melee community can adapt to all the overpowered options that game has to offer, surely the Smash 4 community can adapt to options far below the former.

 

[NewZen]

I'm still rather indifferent towards them-yes, I use them against friends online and in-person, but because of their hideous method of unlocking them, they're still a pain to optimize across multiple systems, especially when 4 of your characters don't have them at all.

Still, the ones who've used them had shown that they did well enough to warrant them in some tourneys, but we'll still probably have 2 sets of rules-With and W/O Customs.

 

[Infinite901]

I've seen ZeRo Esam and Dabuz say customs are bad at least out of the EVO Top 8. Not all I'll admit but they and some other guys def are against them. I haven't really seen a top player be in favor of customs tbh.

Okay, now you're just pulling stuff out of your ass. Not sure about Esam, but Dabuz is totally for customs. Do you even know, like... who Dabuz is? Was thinking about someone else. My b.

Because in the situation you described only Pikachu was a problem and even then its a situation that hasn't happened so I don't know why you keep dragging this out. It seems pretty obvious that customs weren't intended for competitive play by the fact that DLC characters don't have any, they haven't been balanced(HELLO LIGHTWEIGHT GLITCH, CAPS BECAUSE OBVIOUS), they are lumped with equipment, something not meant to be competitive.

Order Tackle was patched.

a whole bunch of bs

So many things wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

The big contradiction here: You say that Brawler and Palutena have "jank, broken" moves that make them OP and too easy to utilize - but then say that it doesn't even matter because they're not tournament viable even with customs. So which one is it? Are they OP? Or are they not viable? They can't be both.

If Palutena is broken, why didn't a Palutena player win? Why didn't Esam go on and beat Zero with a supposedly "broken" move? Also funny how you're mad that Palutena can grab -> kill at 80% with lightweight when Luigi, ZSS, and YOUR MAIN can all do this normally. Better ban them.

Melee Shine, Rest, Wobbling, are all waaaayyy more OP than any custom move. Brawl Metaknight and Icies, too. Obviously these must all be banned.

All of the "broken" customs you're citing had almost no impact on the tournament as a whole. Instead, the one custom that had the largest impact on the tournament was Speedy Bike. #BanSpeedyBike.

Pikachu's infinite was not used. Esam would not have lost to Regi. Stop bsing.

A lot of things that are said about customs could be said about half of Sheiks moves. #BanYourMain.

I'm starting to think that you're just some salty guy who wants as little risk as possible to his main who is objectively more broken than any custom. In other words, I think all of your argument is full of totally biased bs.


tl;dr (because let's be real you probably don't read these anyway) You remain blatantly biased while maining a character who is more broken than any custom in the game (not saying Sheik is particularly broken, just moreso than any custom)and while completely contradicting your argument, all while making up facts. Stop it.

I'm gonna stop bothering with you know. You are beyond reach of any reasonable argument.

 

[MOI-ARI]

I think pretty much all complaints regarding customs have been thrown out the window with this EVO turnout. The Grand Finals consisted of two vanilla characters (Sheik & Diddy), and there wasn't a single DK or Villager in Top 8, making the already flimsy argument that customs carry players null & void. Multiple Sonics also ate **** even with the oh-so-popular custom moves Sonic has at his disposal, which was pretty satisfying to see. And I don't think I even need to go over the absurdity of the idea that all customs are "jank".

EVO 2015 just goes to show that skill & adaptation are the most important factors in being victorious. Things like the Dongcopter, exploding balloons, and a burying Spin Dash aren't infallible and can be overcome through matchup knowledge. They're still annoying, yes, but I say it's worth putting up with a few annoying customs to reap the benefits of the (much larger amount of) non-annoying customs. I mean, really, if the Melee community can adapt to all the overpowered options that game has to offer, surely the Smash 4 community can adapt to options far below the former.

Well put! I couldn't quite say it better myself xD

 

[Illuminose]

You know, I know Zero said "All the top players" but I seem to recall plenty of "top players" who also are ok with customs. It's more complex than just all of them rejecting it. It's mostly that the anti-customs top players are the most vocal against them.

ZeRo, Dabuz, the Europeans (eg Mr R, JMiller)
, all of Japan (Rain, Abadango, Ranai, etc), ESAM, Ally, MVD, Nakat, and StaticManny. That's off the top of my head.

e: will respond to other post in a sec

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

They.. really didn't seem to affect much, at all. We had campy Sonics and Villagers, but those are always there, anyway. It made a broader spectrum of characters get into fairly high places (notably WFT, Palutena, and Charizard). It allowed Mii Fighter mains to play. There seem to be no real downsides and a small upside, so hey, let's keep them.

This is basically what I've said all along. I knew customs would never radically change the game -- I have no idea why some people thought they would -- but I knew that it would make certain characters more viable, thus increasing potential variety. There's really no downside, and with this EVO proving that customs don't carry players, there's pretty much no reason to ban customs moving forward.

At this point, I strongly feel that those against customs either don't want to adapt, are focusing on the standout "jank" ones, or both of those.

 

[KingJames]

Big house 5 is the next big tourney and will most likely not have customs. Will regions turn them of to prepare for bh5 like evo.

 

[Illuminose]

ok

Okay, now you're just pulling stuff out of your ***. Not sure about Esam, but Dabuz is totally for customs. Do you even know, like... who Dabuz is?
Order Tackle was patched.
So many things wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

The big contradiction here: You say that Brawler and Palutena have "jank, broken" moves that make them OP and too easy to utilize - but then say that it doesn't even matter because they're not tournament viable even with customs. So which one is it? Are they OP? Or are they not viable? They can't be both.

If Palutena is broken, why didn't a Palutena player win? Why didn't Esam go on and beat Zero with a supposedly "broken" move? Also funny how you're mad that Palutena can grab -> kill at 80% with lightweight when Luigi, ZSS, and YOUR MAIN can all do this normally. Better ban them.

Melee Shine, Rest, Wobbling, are all waaaayyy more OP than any custom move. Brawl Metaknight and Icies, too. Obviously these must all be banned.

All of the "broken" customs you're citing had almost no impact on the tournament as a whole. Instead, the one custom that had the largest impact on the tournament was Speedy Bike. #BanSpeedyBike.

Pikachu's infinite was not used. Esam would not have lost to Regi. Stop bsing.

A lot of things that are said about customs could be said about half of Sheiks moves. #BanYourMain.

I'm starting to think that you're just some salty guy who wants as little risk as possible to his main who is objectively more broken than any custom. In other words, I think all of your argument is full of totally biased bs.


tl;dr (because let's be real you probably don't read these anyway) You remain blatantly biased while maining a character who is more broken than any custom in the game (not saying Sheik is particularly broken, just moreso than any custom)and while completely contradicting your argument, all while making up facts. Stop it.

I'm gonna stop bothering with you know. You are beyond reach of any reasonable argument.

Dabuz has repeatedly expressed that he's against customs as of recent weeks. Don't call people out if you don't know what you're talking about.

OP =/= easy, and I didn't say they weren't tournament viable with customs. That's just being facetious and ignoring the point. Maybe I messed up the wording, but I think it's very clear that I think Palutena and Mii Brawler are tournament viable with customs. Perhaps a wording misstep (that I don't think exists), but it doesn't justify this rant in your post. That's just a distraction from the point. You don't have to win the tournament for a custom move to be broken or overcentralizing. Broken tactics do not ensure success in any game. Broken tactics increase the chance of success greatly, but they do not ensure success. If winning the tournament is your only metric of a tactic being broken, you're looking at it the wrong way. Also, Luigi can't kill with a grab at 80%. Maybe on Jigglypuff? Sheik killing with a grab at 80%? Maybe on the middle platform on Halberd. Apart from that? Please. You're gonna need some rage to be killing any earlier than like 110%, and it's a 50/50 mixup regardless as in it isn't guaranteed. Zero Suit Samus has grab confirms at that percent, this is true, but at the same time she's working with a tether grab. The balance difference is pretty obviously skewed between Palutena and these 3 characters. You have a character that gets the best mobility in the game, of any character, with a normal grab that true combos into a kill at 80%. Nothing like this exists in the game. It would all be fine if infinite Lightweight didn't exist because there would be actual drawbacks, but it does and there's literally nothing you can do about Lightweight because they can just ban Final Destination and have a field day.

Did you watch ESAM play? He used the Thunder Wave infinite a lot. It wasn't technically the infinite setup (no Meteor Quick Attack), sure, but that's not the point because it's inescapable and means automatic death. Did you watch ESAM vs Regi? It's pretty damn clear that the only reason ESAM won that set was because he was able to land Thunder Waves and get the easy Heavy Skull Bash confirm. Outside of those dumb early kills, Regi was mopping the floor with him. There's no tourney vods up yet afaik and if you haven't watched it you'll have to take my word for it, but anyone could see it. ESAM was playing sloppy the whole tournament and barely made Top 8 with the help of Pikachu's janky customs. He's capable of it without customs, but he wasn't playing up to par at EVO in such a way to deserve it.

I don't care about characters being able to deal with Sheik. Heck I wish more could (although her matchup spread is pretty overestimated tbh even by me, she has more even/close matchups than a lot of people would like to think) so that people could shut up and stop trying to invalidate every post I make about customs by saying I'm a biased Sheik main. That's not an ok thing to do. Sheik might need a couple small adjustments to make her a bit more tame, sure. If/when she does, I'll be fine because I know it's for the best. Sheik isn't "more broken" than any custom though, lol, and to say as such is completely missing the point regardless. If you want to "stop bothering" and saying I'm "beyond reach of any reasonable argument", feel free. All you've shown is that you can't come up with meaningful points and thus are resorting to insults in order to justify yourself.