What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Magik0722]

He could camp with or without customs but you can't argue that double spring and hammer spindash didn't help him make it easier. Also what about Captainawesum?

But he lost the matches he played with customs.

 

[Balgorxz]

static manny camps even more against good players without customs

 

[Scarlet Jile]

GOD THIS HBOX JIGGS IS BULL****

BAN CUSTOMS

 

[Raijinken]

He could camp with or without customs but you can't argue that double spring and hammer spindash didn't help him make it easier. Also what about Captainawesum?

What about him? He camped and lost, then camped and won, and then got a time out rubbed in his face with EE even saying "How DARE you look salty!"
He lost, because annoying strategies are not automatically good strategies. Sheik could have got percent or maybe even a stage spike on any repeat grab using a default grenade due to the lack of regrab invulnerability. Sheik's actually relatively weak against the strategy due to her lack of edge-hitting options and spikes, both of which wreck that Villager strategy.

Also, every single time, Villager popped above needle height to throw a Lloid, and Sheik threw the needles at the exact same position almost every time. That's just poor adaptation to a repeated move.

GOD THIS HBOX JIGGS IS BULL****

BAN CUSTOMS

That match was the highlight of Melee for me today.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Uhhhh I've been writing this post for like half hour...>.<"

In a nutshell my opinion/view:

Customs= awesome and loved by me for my characters. Good is much very for

but customs also = Awful shameless timeouts, and ledge hog spam.(?) I know people dont all choose to play like that but the problem is they mostly do.

Part of me hates that **** but another more ambitious part of me says theres a way to stop it. And there is...Still my brain knows its still stupid as **** to deal with. :/

 

[Nysyr]

I don't see how you can make the argument that customs improved things when the top 8 didn't even touch them.

You have to look at the matches that included them and ask yourself "would this have been a more skillfull/entertaining match without customs?"

Personally when I see dumb **** like custom diddy fishing super hard for Up-B kills, I click that X button in the top right of the screen.

 

[Jiggly]

Uhhhh I've been writing this post for like half hour...>.<"

In a nutshell my opinion/view:

Customs= awesome and loved by me for my characters. Good is much very for

but customs also = Awful shameless timeouts, and ledge hog spam.(?) I know people dont all choose to play like that but the problem is they mostly do.

Part of me hates that **** but another more ambitious part of me says theres a way to stop it. And there is...Still my brain knows its still stupid as **** to deal with. :/

The only thing about that is villager, sonic, rosa, and to some extent WFT can already do that. And for some of these characters it barely improves that strategy. And at the end of the day, that is why the timer is there, to make sure games don't last forever. Sure, that strategy can be annoying and people might hate it, but it is a legit strategy. As long as it doesn't make a majority of the cast like that, I'm still all for them.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't see how you can make the argument that customs improved things when the top 8 didn't even touch them.

You have to look at the matches that included them and ask yourself "would this have been a more skillfull/entertaining match without customs?"

Personally when I see dumb **** like custom diddy fishing super hard for Up-B kills, I click that X button in the top right of the screen.

The top 8 used them, just not very successfully.

Abadango used custom Wario and Rosalina against any Sheik. Nairo used Zamus's falcolaser to very little effect. ESAM used Thunder Wave and Heavy Skull Bash.

But none of them won. Default Sheik and Default Diddy carried the day.

 

[chaos11011]

I feel like customs added a bit more to the tournament and will continue to add even more if we choose to allow it in the future. I don't really get a lot of the arguments used here. People are saying that Top 8 barely had Customs, so it's not worth allowing them, but if it was the opposite situation and Customs were all over Top 8, people would say it changed too much and thus is unhealthy. It's a double sided sword of an argument and that makes me a bit skeptical of those points.

As for the camping issues, both Villager and Sonic were proved to be beatable and I think that as we continue to play the Customs involved game, we will find new ways to fight the bad eggs. Zero asking for a Wii U to use overnight is proof that even the top player doesn't know everything about the game. He knows a lot, sure, but if he had to lab overnight for something about Customs, that just shows that EVO is only the surface of what Customs can bring to the table. You can't expect an entire metagame to show every aspect of its colors with only one major tournament. The best way to deal with this is to allow more major Custom tournaments and if the metagame still hasn't adapted to the "jank", then maybe we can start reconsidering a ban.

Also, I don't think it's fair to pin Manny's behavior on Customs. As others have said, it's something that he can do with or without Customs, so if that's an argument you're choosing to use against Customs, then a character ban would be more accurate, which is silly, as it is clearly beatable.

 

[MOI-ARI]

The only thing about that is villager, sonic, rosa, and to some extent WFT can already do that. And for some of these characters it barely improves that strategy. And at the end of the day, that is why the timer is there, to make sure games don't last forever. Sure, that strategy can be annoying and people might hate it, but it is a legit strategy. As long as it doesn't make a majority of the cast like that, I'm still all for them.

Yeah I wasn't so sure about them thus the "(?)" But yeah they are like that nonetheless 'x) I don't know about so much calling it a 'Legit strategy.' But its in the game alright. Its honestly only a respectable strategy in my eyes if they come on stage and fight eventually. But you probably disagree because you have your reasons. ^-^"
But I understand the ultimate strategy is to win. Shame or no shame.

But overall yeah, the bad apples shouldn't ruin the batch.Thats what i tell myself.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel like customs added a bit more to the tournament and will continue to add even more if we choose to allow it in the future. I don't really get a lot of the arguments used here. People are saying that Top 8 barely had Customs, so it's not worth allowing them, but if it was the opposite situation and Customs were all over Top 8, people would say it changed too much and thus is unhealthy. It's a double sided sword of an argument and that makes me a bit skeptical of those points.

As for the camping issues, both Villager and Sonic were proved to be beatable and I think that as we continue to play the Customs involved game, we will find new ways to fight the bad eggs. Zero asking for a Wii U to use overnight is proof that even the top player doesn't know everything about the game. He knows a lot, sure, but if he had to lab overnight for something about Customs, that just shows that EVO is only the surface of what Customs can bring to the table. You can't expect an entire metagame to show every aspect of its colors with only one major tournament. The best way to deal with this is to allow more major Custom tournaments and if the metagame still hasn't adapted to the "jank", then maybe we can start reconsidering a ban.

Also, I don't think it's fair to pin Manny's behavior on Customs. As others have said, it's something that he can do with or without Customs, so if that's an argument you're choosing to use against Customs, then a character ban would be more accurate, which is silly, as it is clearly beatable.

I completely forgot that Zero asked for a Wii U to lab on. That's a very good point.

 

[deepseadiva]

Don't forget customs also allowed Captainawesum and Static Manny to do what they did.

I think this is a fair point about Villager. (The Sonic point is irrelevant as everyone has pointed out. That's just Sonic customs on/off regardless).

It's a fact customs introduce planking to the game. But thankfully it's coming from a singular character's customs and thankfully it seems neat enough to amputate that tumor with a house rule of some sort. Banning all customs with a blanket ban is very unreasonable when there are multiple ways to shave off that problem without harming innocent characters like Palutena and Wii Fit etc.

Blanket banning all customs because of Villager reminds me of preschool where the teacher would punish the whole class because one kid was being rowdy. We do not need to be unreasonable like that.

Some example house rules which remove planking while still letting us enjoy 99% of the rich options customs give us:
- ledge grab limit
- ban timber counter + extreme balloon trip on same set
- ban timber counter

Normally I am against house rules like these, especially when we've seen planking being beaten at high levels. But it's really ugly, universally hated, and it harms lower level players more than anything else.

Current feelings. But I think this is a good compromise going forward for the whole community.

 

[Raijinken]

I think this is a fair point about Villager. (The Sonic point is irrelevant as everyone has pointed out. That's just Sonic customs on/off regardless).

It's a fact customs introduce planking to the game. But thankfully it's coming from a singular character's customs and thankfully it seems neat enough to amputate that tumor with a house rule of some sort. Banning all customs with a blanket ban is very unreasonable when there are multiple ways to shave off that problem without harming innocent characters like Palutena and Wii Fit etc.

Blanket banning all customs because of Villager reminds me of preschool where the teacher would punish the whole class because one kid was being rowdy. We do not need to be unreasonable like that.

Some example house rules which remove planking while still letting us enjoy 99% of the rich options customs give us:
- ledge grab limit
- ban timber counter + extreme balloon trip on same set
- ban timber counter

Normally I am against house rules like these, especially when we've seen planking being beaten at high levels. But it's really ugly, universally hated, and it harms lower level players more than anything else.

Current feelings. But I think this is a good compromise going forward for the whole community.

But again, Sheik is uniquely poorly equipped to handle Villager's edge stalling. Her choices are perfectly angled Needles onto his exposed head, a very careful dip under -> vanish (or similar), or to time a grenade (default or gravity would work) right when he goes for the regrab. Anyone with a large projectile (Megaman, Samus, Lucario, whoever else, though having large projectiles is risky against Villager because of Pocket), custom Palutena (Explosive Light), and most characters with a spike can trade "favorably" with the balloons in that they can kill Villager through them, or hit him off the edge from a distance. The result of that is he's only relatively safe if he's a stock ahead, which camping Villager struggles with since he loses his killing axe and as to rely a lot more on players failing to play around a static banana. If he loses his stock tie or lead, he really struggles with the camping setup to regain any sort of lead, since the entire strategy is built around surrendering all stage control.

It's annoying, and somewhat more effective than, say, Kong Cyclone was hyped up to be, but it still didn't win.

 

[Jiggly]

Villager stall is pretty bad, I'm still on the fence about banning customs, but restricting the pairing of extreme ballons and trip tree might be a good idea. Dont ban them out right, maybe just restrict their use in tandem...

 

[Illuminose]

The effectiveness of customs Villager planking is the only reason CaptAwesum made Top 32. The only reason. This coming from someone from Tristate who wants the best for their region and their players to succeed (CaptAwesum is from CT). He had no shot at beating Rain or K9 without customs on. He wouldn't have come even close to beating Larry Lurr with customs off, in fact the only reason Larry Lurr even win was because he was able to reverse time him out. In losers he ran into the Villager ditto, which he straight up lost. This is a player that can't even win his own locals. I think this is actually a pretty notable instance of customs transcending skill. Rain? Sure, chalk it up to matchup inexperience. That's a ruleset incompatibilit because there are no customs Villagers in Japan as they don't play customs, so how exactly was he supposed to practice? Looking at a video and applying information in practice are two very different things. However, if this strategy really is so beatable, you would think that the best player in Japan would be able to adapt and beat this one the fly, no? K9's brother plays Villager, so you had best be sure that he has Villager practice. Larry Lurr was this close to losing a set in R1 of Top 32 bracket in a matchup I'm sure he's prepared for. I think these players are being underestimated in their preparation because no one in their right mind would ignore customs Villager when preparing for EVO. Even considering that it's beatable, customs Villager promotes degenerate play that is devastatingly effective and makes timeouts (and reverse timeouts) more common/optimal. The hypest thing that happened with CaptAwesum was getting reverse timed out by Larry Lurr. He upset two players of a higher caliber, so shouldn't there have been excitement? This degenerate play is bad for spectators AND the metagame.

Another main offender of degenerate play and transcending skill barriers was customs Sonic (HSD, double spring, gravitational Down B). StaticManny puts Dabuz into losers in pools without customs? StaticManny eliminates MVD without customs? Just watch those matches. It's so clear that customs buff Sonic and bring the effectiveness of his camping to another level entirely. HSD puts so much reward on landing spin dash, it's kinda insane. Not only that, the hop at the beginning gives Sonic even more trajectories at which he can jump out and makes him harder to catch. What is Sonic's big flaw in general? Landing. Double spring pretty much invalidates this because he can mix up his landing in so many different ways. With the Gravitational Charge, it's almost like he has normal spin dash as well. The custom moves are why StaticManny was able to camp so much more effectively and pull off these huge upsets. The best proof of this is when StaticManny initially went default against FOW, lost a game, and then switched to his customs and almost took back the set by winning one game and getting down to last hit in game 3. Customs improve Sonic's keep away game drastically, to levels that are unhealthy and bordering degenerate.

I also think we really got to see why Pikachu's customs are ridiculous. Abadango preyed on matchup inexperience and Mario seemed to be a rough matchup, but it was really clear that ESAM's results were artificially boosted due to customs. He could be behind by a lot, but one Thunder Wave connects and that's it. He would have lost to Regi, the no-name G&W from Mexico, without customs. Look at the set, you can't tell me that isn't true. Pikachu's infinite is not only practical but able to be used devastatingly. It's clearly a problem and not something that's healthy for the game.

On the flip side, what exactly did customs help? By this I mean, what results did customs pull for these worse characters that supposedly get so much viable with customs? There was one Mii Brawler, one Palutena, and two Wii Fit Trainers. Mii Brawler and Palutena both have broken custom moves (Hurricane Kick and Lightweight). The only reason they're made that much more viable is because they have those broken moves. Just look at the current implementation of these moves. They aren't healthy moves for any character! You can combo into Hurricane Kick and kill stupidly early. No, not like Boost Kick early, like 50% early. Lightweight's current implementation is broken. You can use it infinitely for free, with pretty much no relevant drawbacks to something that gives Palutena the best mobility in the game. Grab = death starting at like 80%. It'd be fine without infinite Lightweight, but we can't count on that being patched out for the time being. I'm not going to take two characters who have broken moves as a positive for customs. The Wii Fits...I think it's overestimated how much of a benefit customs provide in that case, and they both lost pretty quickly in bracket. Between custom Sonic, custom Pikachu, custom Villager, custom Diddy Up B, and Mii Brawler Hurricane Kick, customs had a greater negative effect than positive effect on the tournament.

Here's the thing: more viable is irrelevant when most of these characters that get better with customs still aren't really tournament viable. More viable is an arbitrary metric that ignores the fact that, in the cast of most characters, customs are not enough to fix their fundamental flaws and truly allow them to compete. I'm wholly unconvinced that the supposed diversity that is supposed to come with customs actually exists. This is the only positive element of custom moves and they completely failed this test.

Could we just ban specific moves? We could. However, based on the fact that it's a logistical nightmare in itself to have customs and a negative overall effect with problematic moves (that applies to multiple characters), it just doesn't make sense to have them.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Villager stall is pretty bad, I'm still on the fence about banning customs, but restricting the pairing of extreme ballons and trip tree might be a good idea. Dont ban them out right, maybe just restrict their use in tandem...

I still feel its all or nothing with customs. Banning some/restricting use for some can lead to a slippery slope where more and more get banned/restricted, ruining the point of customs in the first place. The problem is there is no objective force to say "This custom is bad, this custom isn't" there will always be conflicting sides on if one custom should be banned.

 

[RayNoire]

No one with a brain actually thought we would see a bunch of DKs and Awesums in Top 8.

I don't see why anyone's opinion on customs would have changed either way from EVO.

 

[HybridTheory1]

I'm trying to get a general idea of what people are currently thinking about customs being used in the future. I created a poll that's more in-depth, and I'm hoping will give a general idea of what we, as a community, think about customs. The poll takes into consideration whether or not you actually played, or are just a spectator. I'm hoping to get at least 500 people to fill out this poll, and I already have around 150 people who filled it out.

Any help is greatly appreciated, so feel free to spread the link on Twitter, Reddit, etc, so we can get as much data as possible.

I'm using Google Polls so the data is easy to manage and the link is easily accessible.

Link

 

[Tinkerer]

They.. really didn't seem to affect much, at all. We had campy Sonics and Villagers, but those are always there, anyway. It made a broader spectrum of characters get into fairly high places (notably WFT, Palutena, and Charizard). It allowed Mii Fighter mains to play. There seem to be no real downsides and a small upside, so hey, let's keep them.

 

[Morbi]

No one with a brain actually thought we would see a bunch of DKs and Awesums in Top 8.

I don't see why anyone's opinion on customs would have changed either way from EVO.

My opinion changed on customs, at first I was against them for logistical reasons; however, after witnessing the negligible effect they had on the outcome of the matches I spectated, I am not against them any longer. That being said, I am not necessarily pro-customs either. I am just indifferent.

 

[neohopeSTF]

They.. really didn't seem to affect much, at all. We had campy Sonics and Villagers, but those are always there, anyway. It made a broader spectrum of characters get into fairly high places (notably WFT, Palutena, and Charizard). It allowed Mii Fighter mains to play. There seem to be no real downsides and a small upside, so hey, let's keep them.

Just because one tournament went OK doesn't mean customs as a whole are OK. Esam's Pikachu proved how stupid they are killing with HSB at 40. Would CaptAwesum even make it out of pools without customs? In the short term customs look good but in the long term they are something that could be dangerous to the game.

 

[Kaladin]

Default Diddy won. Default Sheik second placed. (Mostly) default ZSS got 3rd. JANK HAS NO POWER HERE!

Seriously though, those little numbers next to the moves mean nothing. If HSB were the default, Pika would be considered second best in the game, and nothing else would be made of it. We wouldn't ban the (hypothetically) default side-B, so why ban the custom?

 

[Doruge]

dumb

Static Manny placed 9th at CEO (no customs) and 9th at EVO (customs). He camped players out equally effectively in both tournaments, placed exactly the same, and somehow you think that customs are the only reason he was able to place well. You even seem to think that Gravitational Charge is worth complaining about, purely because of the fact that the move was used at all. And your "best proof" is completely incorrect, Manny was actually using customs against FOW, lost, and then switched to default and took a game. There is absolutely zero evidence supporting the statement that customs help Sonic's camping game.

ESAM actually placed worse at EVO than he did at CEO. Saying that he only lost because of "matchup inexperience" is a joke when you can't seem to realize that CaptAwesum was the one who was only winning because of matchup inexperience. And there's absolutely no way of knowing whether or not he would have lost to Regi, if anything he might've had a better chance of winning since ESAM seems to play worse when he uses customs.

Calling Helicopter Kick "broken", while not even knowing the correct NAME of the move, is even more evidence that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

 

[deepseadiva]

Never understood the outrage about Pikachu getting a good kill move when much worse already exists in default. See:
- Jigglypuff Rest. Kills at 60%. Invincible.
- Lil Mac KO punch. Kills at 30%.
- Zeldas Farore Wind. Kills at 70%.

I'm not bothered by Heavy Skull Bash.

 

[Kaladin]

Just because one tournament went OK doesn't mean customs as a whole are OK. Esam's Pikachu proved how stupid they are killing with HSB at 40. Would CaptAwesum even make it out of pools without customs? In the short term customs look good but in the long term they are something that could be dangerous to the game.

Would ZeRo have even made it out of pools if he was playing Falco?

Customs change a character's playstyle fundamentally in many cases. There's a difference between maining custom and default Palutena, just as there's a difference between maining default and custom Villager. That argument is stupid. Of course he wouldn't have made it out of pools not playing his main.

(Not defending the Cap here though. That guy is the only time I've ever posted ResidentSleeper in a twitch chat. And I mean ever.)

 

[Teshie U]

I think this is a fair point about Villager. (The Sonic point is irrelevant as everyone has pointed out. That's just Sonic customs on/off regardless).

It's a fact customs introduce planking to the game. But thankfully it's coming from a singular character's customs and thankfully it seems neat enough to amputate that tumor with a house rule of some sort. Banning all customs with a blanket ban is very unreasonable when there are multiple ways to shave off that problem without harming innocent characters like Palutena and Wii Fit etc.

Blanket banning all customs because of Villager reminds me of preschool where the teacher would punish the whole class because one kid was being rowdy. We do not need to be unreasonable like that.

Some example house rules which remove planking while still letting us enjoy 99% of the rich options customs give us:
- ledge grab limit
- ban timber counter + extreme balloon trip on same set
- ban timber counter

Normally I am against house rules like these, especially when we've seen planking being beaten at high levels. But it's really ugly, universally hated, and it harms lower level players more than anything else.

Current feelings. But I think this is a good compromise going forward for the whole community.

Allowing only 1 custom at a time solves the logistics issue (only 8 possible sets for every character) and stops pikachu infinite to HSB, Mii Brawler can't have a good recovery AND grab combo cheese, villager can camp the ledge OR the stage but not both.

Ofcourse there are casualties for character that might run multiple customs without breaking the game (like mario, ike, kirby)

 

[neohopeSTF]

Never understood the outrage about Pikachu getting a good kill move when much worse already exists in default. See:
- Jigglypuff Rest. Kills at 60%. Invincible.
- Lil Mac KO punch. Kills at 30%.
- Zeldas Farore Wind. Kills at 70%.

I'm not bothered by Heavy Skull Bash.

ok what. Heavy Skull Bash takes little set up to go into you literally get it for free at any point you hit somebody with that custom stun neutral b or you read an air dodge, KO punch doesn't show up often, Rest is hard to hit, Zelda is trash and getting up b kills with her take hard reads. You literally get HSB for free with simplest of reads. Also not knowing the name of a move doesn't mean you don't what you are talking about(not talking about the person I quoted but some fool said that and I have to point out how stupid it was to say that).

 

[Doruge]

ok what. Heavy Skull Bash takes little set up to go into you literally get it for free at any point you hit somebody with that custom stun neutral b or you read an air dodge, KO punch doesn't show up often, Rest is hard to hit, Zelda is trash and getting up b kills with her take hard reads. You literally get HSB for free with simplest of reads.

HSB isn't nearly as "free" as you think considering ESAM wasn't able to land it a single time against Abadango.

 

[Kaladin]

ok what. Heavy Skull Bash takes little set up to go into you literally get it for free at any point you hit somebody with that custom stun neutral b or you read an air dodge, KO punch doesn't show up often, Rest is hard to hit, Zelda is trash and getting up b kills with her take hard reads. You literally get HSB for free with simplest of reads.

Zelda has Up B OOS. What part of UpB OOS requires a read?

Again, you wouldn't be complaining about HSB if it were default.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Going against the crowd here i guess. They didnt add anything besides hsb, speed bike, and star bit. Would rather a more easily accessible game over having midtier shuffled around and with a few customs sprinkled where it matters.

This isn't going against the crowd, this is ignoring reality, come on, that's not all customs added and you know it :S

 

[Piford]

Allowing only 1 custom at a time solves the logistics issue (only 8 possible sets for every character) and stops pikachu infinite to HSB, Mii Brawler can't have a good recovery AND grab combo cheese, villager can camp the ledge OR the stage but not both.

Ofcourse there are casualties for character that might run multiple customs without breaking the game (like mario, ike, kirby)

Only allowing 1 custom just increases the things people don't like about customs and decreases the things people do (With the exception of Custom Villager). Pikachu still has Heavy Skull Bash, Donkey Kong still has Kong Cylcone, Sonic still has Hammer Spin Dash. All your doing is focusing in and emphasizing on the customs people don't like, and then not allowing a lot of the good customs bring like being able to strategize sets and synergies between certain moves.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Zelda has Up B OOS. What part of UpB OOS requires a read?

Again, you wouldn't be complaining about HSB if it were default.

What if it was a default? What kind of logic is that "What if this overpowered thing was standard? You wouldn't say it was overpowered!" its overpowered. Also default Zelda is garbage default Pikachu is still top 10 its not comparable even then.

 

[Kaladin]

What if it was a default? What kind of logic is that "What if this overpowered thing was standard? You wouldn't say it was overpowered!" its overpowered. Also default Zelda is garbage default Pikachu is still top 10 its not comparable even then.

If the "overpowered" thing were standard, would you advocate forcing Pika players to use a custom in place of the default? Yes or no, please.

 

[neohopeSTF]

If the "overpowered" thing were standard, would you advocate forcing Pika players to use a custom in place of the default? Yes or no, please.

No. I wouldn't tell Shiek mains to use a worse Up B because her Up B is super good.

 

[Kaladin]

No. I wouldn't tell Shiek mains to use a worse Up B because her Up B is super good.

Exactly. So why ban the custom?

 

[deepseadiva]

ok what. Heavy Skull Bash takes little set up to go into you literally get it for free at any point you hit somebody with that custom stun neutral b or you read an air dodge, KO punch doesn't show up often, Rest is hard to hit, Zelda is trash and getting up b kills with her take hard reads. You literally get HSB for free with simplest of reads. Also not knowing the name of a move doesn't mean you don't what you are talking about(not talking about the person I quoted but some fool said that and I have to point out how stupid it was to say that).

Some other higher tier examples:
- Ness's GRAB which kills at 120%.
- Zamus Boost Kick at 94%.
- Megamn Utilt at 84%.
- Luigi Jump Punch 70%.

I mean are we really gonna cherry pick a percent that's "acceptable" to KO at?

 

[Skarfelt]

The benefits customs provided at EVO are really subjective. Did they provide more or less diversity? Idk, top 8 seemed pretty damn accurate to me regardless of custos. While Villager is obviously stupid, it's not Villager's fault Rain lost to him. It'd be like if Japan had banned Meta Knight (for some reason) in Brawl and then they showed up and got rekt by MK. If you come to another country, you play by their ruleset.

Which is, actually, my point against Customs here. To my knowledge, nowhere else in the world besides America is playing customs right now. I think there's a few regions in Europe who play custom rulesets but the majority of the world is playing customs off. I didn't see any benefits from Customs at EVO but to say there's no disavantages is simply wrong. There's still the inherent unlocking that will bore players to tears and the huge potential alienation of new players - more degenerate strategies that you need to know the matchup for to win exist in a custom ruleset. It's on a new player to learn those matchups but if you're a new player and you get destroyed by someone clearly outplaying you, it's not so bad. If you get destroyed by someone spamming Up B as DK... just feels like some bs. And the biggest disadvantage is the suffocation of travel between the scenes. Do you think Rain's coming back next year if it's customs again? Why do you think top EU players like JMiller didn't show up?

For now, EVO did fine with customs. I just don't see the positives EVO brought compared to the negatives that are inherent with allowing customs.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Exactly. So why ban the custom?

I'm not saying ban one custom. I'm saying ban all of then.

Some other higher tier examples:
- Ness's GRAB which kills at 120%.
- Zamus Boost Kick at 94%.
- Megamn Utilt at 84%.
- Luigi Jump Punch 70%.

I mean are we really gonna cherry pick a percent that's "acceptable" to KO at?

All those moves are standard. HSB is a custom that gives Pikachu an unnecessary buff and is just crazy. All the top players seem to agree that customs are terrible and need to go after EVO and I agree.

 

[Skarfelt]

Naming moves with huge endlag and saying "LOOK AT THIS COMPARED TO CUSTOMS" is not a valid argument.

 

[Kaladin]

I'm not saying ban one custom. I'm saying ban all of then.

All those moves are standard. HSB is a custom that gives Pikachu an unnecessary buff and is just crazy. All the top players seem to agree that customs are terrible and need to go after EVO and I agree.

Why ban all of them on the grounds of jank if you won't ban default on those grounds?