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What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?
- Thread starter Jiggly
- Start date
Raijinken
Smash Master
Depth in games is interesting. It's built from limitation, yes, but thrives off of variety.
You can certainly have one without the other. Sandbox games thrive on variety, and have relatively little limitation aside from restrictions of the engine. That said, it's hard to have a competitive sandbox game, unless you declare a goal and make it a race, or build additional restrictions to make it a competition.
By contrast, games like Go have exceedingly little variety. Literally one piece that doesn't even do anything on its own (slight exaggeration, I do not play Go despite having friends who do so, and thus this is an outsider's perspective). But it's exceedingly complex and its simple rules lead to complex interactions. Contrast Chess which is mathematically solved, Go isn't anywhere nearly so.
Competitive video games need to aim for a balance of the two, and where that balance falls will ultimately make the game appeal to different players. In an asymmetrical game, if you design the cast to be unique at the cost of total competitive balance, that caters to a certain type of player. On the other hand, designing a game around competitive parity appeals to a different category. It isn't that a more restricted game (for instance, one in which every character is stuck with their default moves) is objectively worse in any given realm, as pertains to competition or balance.
In basic terms, moveset changeability doesn't impact competitive merit unless you define that merit on the movesets. The game is absolutely limited enough to be competitive. My choices are finite, my controls are finite, my reflexes are finite, and there is a goal which must be reached (or in popular rulesets, at least feinted toward). Giving me a choice of special move doesn't hinder any of that which makes the game competitive, but it does add a lot to many characters.
You pick what's most appropriate for your character and then play your best, instead of picking the most appropriate character and playing your best. Or at least, that's my take on it.
You can certainly have one without the other. Sandbox games thrive on variety, and have relatively little limitation aside from restrictions of the engine. That said, it's hard to have a competitive sandbox game, unless you declare a goal and make it a race, or build additional restrictions to make it a competition.
By contrast, games like Go have exceedingly little variety. Literally one piece that doesn't even do anything on its own (slight exaggeration, I do not play Go despite having friends who do so, and thus this is an outsider's perspective). But it's exceedingly complex and its simple rules lead to complex interactions. Contrast Chess which is mathematically solved, Go isn't anywhere nearly so.
Competitive video games need to aim for a balance of the two, and where that balance falls will ultimately make the game appeal to different players. In an asymmetrical game, if you design the cast to be unique at the cost of total competitive balance, that caters to a certain type of player. On the other hand, designing a game around competitive parity appeals to a different category. It isn't that a more restricted game (for instance, one in which every character is stuck with their default moves) is objectively worse in any given realm, as pertains to competition or balance.
In basic terms, moveset changeability doesn't impact competitive merit unless you define that merit on the movesets. The game is absolutely limited enough to be competitive. My choices are finite, my controls are finite, my reflexes are finite, and there is a goal which must be reached (or in popular rulesets, at least feinted toward). Giving me a choice of special move doesn't hinder any of that which makes the game competitive, but it does add a lot to many characters.
You pick what's most appropriate for your character and then play your best, instead of picking the most appropriate character and playing your best. Or at least, that's my take on it.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
More of a bad thing will never be a good thing. That point always has and always will fall completely flat.There is no evidence of the opposite either, it's just a matter of people refusing to play it for no good reason.
The neutral does never overcentralize on the new moves, they simply are added to the pool of available tools.
"but EBT, TS, KC, et al!" they are just new tools, and even if they might be powerful, they are all beatable.
To me, the top 10 of best spammable specials at Neutral would be:
1- Needle Storm
2 -Monado Arts (all variations)
3 -Bonus Fruit
4 -Metal Blade
5 -Timber Counter
6 -Pushy Lloid/Lloid Rocket (both are pretty good)
7 -Shooting Star Bit
8 -Fireball/Fireball/Megavitamines/Thunderjolt (they all serve the exact same purpose)
9 -Arcfire+Thunder (Grouping them as they have good synergy with each other, also, a worthy mention to Speed Thunder)
10 - Sun Salutation/Enriched Sun Salutation.
Is just a personal list I just made up, can be improved, but anyway please note that out of these, only 2 moves are Custom-exclusive. Everything else is present on either metagame or has a similar version anyway, so "overcentralizing" might be an overstatement.
DunnoBro
The Free-est
Vaccines.
In general though, if you don't control the neutral because of one or two stupid good tools, or make up for that fact by another stupid good move (shoryuken) then you're not a good character so I don't really care if people cry about needles or shooting star bit. It seems to stem from a general lack of understanding for balance.
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True enough, but pretty much everyone on the pro-customs side lists "better balance" as one of the main upsides of Customs.
There's definitely a couple things missing here:
Hammer Spin Dash (also Regular Spin Dash, but less so)
Thunder Wave
Kong Cyclone
Among non custom moves, I would definitely also add PK Fire, especially Lucas's version, and Egg Toss.
I thought it was clear that I was actually referring to the original Warcraft games, which were RTS, but I suppose with WoW taking over the Warcraft brand I should specify.
Strategy games on the whole are basically exercises in optimization - you have to find the most efficient way to allocate limited resources. If your resources are unlimited, they are simply action games.
This optimization mechanic also extends to any other game which has strategic elements. For example, if we want to look at Puyo Puyo (a puzzle game), you would have far more options if you could choose what colour blocks the game gives you rather than having it be random. However, there would be far less depth, the skill in the game involves figuring out how to make the most of what it gives you. (You can also apply the same argument to Tetris if you don't know what Puyo Puyo is).
Of course, it also applies to fighting games. The whole reason matchups exist is because you have to figure out how to use your tools to overcome the opponent's tools. If everyone has all (or the same) tools, matchups are nonexistent.
I'm generally a bit more lenient than APEX when it comes to stage legality, but it's pretty clear that a lot of the stages simply prohibit standard play. On a stage like Rumble Falls, for example, the gameplay is totally focused around surviving the stage rather than fighting your opponent.
Yes, there is definitely a "sweet spot" between the game having enough options to be interesting, and not having so many options as to be trivial.
You can try to argue that turning on Customs brings the game closer to that sweet spot than it does with them turned off. It's not clear exactly where the sweet spot is so this argument has some merit. However, you can't just say "more options always makes a game more interesting" because there are easy counterexamples to show that it doesn't. The key takeaway is that the game might have more depth with customs on or customs off, the only way for us to tell is to play both and analyze specific metagame elements like character variety, matchups, neutral play, etc.
FYI, it's Checkers that has been solved, not Chess. Chess has been partially solved for late-game configurations of the board, but they're nowhere near solving it from move 1.
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Epok
Smash Ace
I am glad to see that the the dialogue for customs is still active. I am from Michigan and currently we are divided into two regions (East/West). Here in the West we were very much for customs/mii fighters. Unfortunately, because the West side of Michigan is so much smaller than East, we tend to get the short end of the stick.
In order to pull over high level players to our events we have to go off of what they do. First West got rid of customs, then East decided Miis should be banned entirely
. We still use custom Miis in the West, but I feel as if our scene is being pressured to lose out on things we really enjoyed in order to grow our scene. The arguments for customs in MI have always come down to the dreaded "J" word.
I hate that if the prominent players call something JANK people will follow like lemmings off of a cliff. I do hope that customs will get another chance because freedom of choices is what makes this game so much fun and exciting (at least to me). And there is really no hard evidence that it ruins the game.
In order to pull over high level players to our events we have to go off of what they do. First West got rid of customs, then East decided Miis should be banned entirely
. We still use custom Miis in the West, but I feel as if our scene is being pressured to lose out on things we really enjoyed in order to grow our scene. The arguments for customs in MI have always come down to the dreaded "J" word.I hate that if the prominent players call something JANK people will follow like lemmings off of a cliff. I do hope that customs will get another chance because freedom of choices is what makes this game so much fun and exciting (at least to me). And there is really no hard evidence that it ruins the game.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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I say make your own decisions and use what you feel makes you a better player whether it is with or without customs, don't be a "me too" and follow a top level player. Just because Dweeb A isn't using them doesn't mean you have to follow their example.
When ZeRo made a Bowser video a while back and pretty much said "Don't play Bowser, play Sheik because whatever" you don't see me going to the Ninja dojo on Death Mountain to learn.
No I'm still chilling in my castle fishing for those satisfying dropkicks. You know why? Because I don't find Sheik fun at all. Now Bowser is fun. I feel powerful and strong. Except my one trick pony gimmick Tough Guy doesn't really work. Comes with the territory.
I feel if someone calls it jank it's probably a strategy they have never encountered before. The fear of the unknown is a real thing so people tend to want to stick with reliable and tested matchup data so when they go to tourneys they know what to expect and win their matches if it is favorable to them.
I think Sheik's Needles and counters are jank(If you use a Counter character or Sheik you'll probably think you are A OK) but that's when you see what you did wrong and figuring out what you can do to counteract it. And when you overcome their use of projectiles or even outplay them at their own mindgames is when you feel like you did a good job.
Whether it's Powershield till your opponent starts to feel fatigue or grabbing their ass. Or you die.
I occasionally watch the tourneys but it's usually the same handful of characters. The only time I ever get excited is when I see a player take a low tier like Ganon or hell make it even better Zelda and beat the snot out of a character that's in the top 10 out of 50ish characters.
A while back a Wario made it up there and I got excited for that, but everyone else? Same old stuff. Sheik, ZSS, Ness, etc.
I like playing the heavies and enjoy seeing the heavies do well. Because they have to fight that much harder. Seeing the top tier speedsters all the time just makes watching matches a chore.
If we can allow DLC characters into tourney's is it really so different to allow variations of existing moves? And if we allow DLC characters why should Mii's be excluded?
When ZeRo made a Bowser video a while back and pretty much said "Don't play Bowser, play Sheik because whatever" you don't see me going to the Ninja dojo on Death Mountain to learn.
No I'm still chilling in my castle fishing for those satisfying dropkicks. You know why? Because I don't find Sheik fun at all. Now Bowser is fun. I feel powerful and strong. Except my one trick pony gimmick Tough Guy doesn't really work. Comes with the territory.
I feel if someone calls it jank it's probably a strategy they have never encountered before. The fear of the unknown is a real thing so people tend to want to stick with reliable and tested matchup data so when they go to tourneys they know what to expect and win their matches if it is favorable to them.
I think Sheik's Needles and counters are jank(If you use a Counter character or Sheik you'll probably think you are A OK) but that's when you see what you did wrong and figuring out what you can do to counteract it. And when you overcome their use of projectiles or even outplay them at their own mindgames is when you feel like you did a good job.
Whether it's Powershield till your opponent starts to feel fatigue or grabbing their ass. Or you die.
I occasionally watch the tourneys but it's usually the same handful of characters. The only time I ever get excited is when I see a player take a low tier like Ganon or hell make it even better Zelda and beat the snot out of a character that's in the top 10 out of 50ish characters.
A while back a Wario made it up there and I got excited for that, but everyone else? Same old stuff. Sheik, ZSS, Ness, etc.
I like playing the heavies and enjoy seeing the heavies do well. Because they have to fight that much harder. Seeing the top tier speedsters all the time just makes watching matches a chore.
If we can allow DLC characters into tourney's is it really so different to allow variations of existing moves? And if we allow DLC characters why should Mii's be excluded?
Raijinken
Smash Master
Thanks for the correction. At any rate, Go is nowhere nearly solved at any state.
As for Kong Cyclone, please spam that in Neutral. I like free punishes.
Really. It's by and large the most over-rated custom move.
MrGame&Rock
Smash Ace
and then upload the replays and hype them so we can dispel the notion that Kong Cyclone is OP
Epok
Smash Ace
I think a community driven video series debunking stuff like this might help the meta get back into customs. Also, alerting players on what customs were patched. IIRC "Extreme Baloon Trip" was nerfed. Many people may not be paying attention to that.
MrGame&Rock
Smash Ace
I mean, yes, but I'm going to shift gears here for a minute.
Jank isn't the reason why customs aren't being used. It's a symptom of a much larger problem: lack of easy access. We can teach everyone that kong cyclone isn't op, but it doesn't matter if the average player doesn't have access to these moves because they're tedious and difficult to get, and so can't put together their favorite movesets and practice with them. If we don't have everyone in the customs meta, it cant evolve on the scale we need it to. The best customs players, the most advanced and knowledgable, are barely out of the "Bowser is OP" phase of the meta, and the rest of the playerbase are still firmly in that phase.
edit: IK I'm all over the place with customs, it's just that I'm not really hearing what I see as the underlying cause for customs not being the dominant meta. So I'm kinda in this position where one side is completely overlooking the fact that customs, as they are now, can't work, and the other is attacking the symptoms, rather than addressing the actual issue.
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Epok
Smash Ace
I understand your point and I agree. The biggest problem is access. Me and my team made is very well know that we would give everyone customs via DS if they wanted to bring their consoles to tournaments and smash fests.
We put in a lot of time to make sure everyone was aware of customs and had access to them. I think we did very well (if I do say so myself
). In my neck of the woods, access it wasn't the main issue. It was the stubborn opinions of well respected players that let the "customs are jank" propaganda overwhelm sound logic. That and honest to goodness laziness of learning match ups and counters. It's quite frustrating actually. It got so bad that higher level players purposely played the custom DK's and Villagers in order to frustrate players into thinking customs were no good for competition.
Dinoman96
Smash Master
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Lack of easy access is definitely an issue, but so is "jank". Even after the recent patches that adjusted customs and nerfed some of the more controversial ones like EBT and Pikachu's infinite, customs are still seen as a joke by many players. Their opinions of customs being broken janky nonsense seem to be set in stone and I'm not sure if there's anything Sakurai can do at this point. Hell, even the Mii Fighters have a lot of opposition when it comes to being able to use their specials. ZeRo claimed they were "bad for the game" and Vinnie has been having a hissy fit over the idea of custom Miis on Twitter for the past few weeks.
At this point, I just don't think people like the idea of being able to alter a character's moveset. I guess I kinda see why: A lot of Smash's appeal comes from its overall simplicity compared to other fighters. People are probably more comfortable with just four specials for each character and that being it.
At this point, I just don't think people like the idea of being able to alter a character's moveset. I guess I kinda see why: A lot of Smash's appeal comes from its overall simplicity compared to other fighters. People are probably more comfortable with just four specials for each character and that being it.
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Epok
Smash Ace
It's funny people complain about simplicity because when the game fist came out people were worried that it would lack depth. Sometimes I don't think the community knows what it wants lol. Not to mention people can ask questions and most moves are just obvious physic changes (fast,weak/slow,strong) to the move you are used to.
MrGame&Rock
Smash Ace
That's because of lack of access. The customs meta for the top players who oppose them is at "Smash 3DS" levels. They haven't experimented with customs enough to really know what's good, what isn't, and how to beat stuff that sounds op on paper but is actually fine. EBT, Pikachu's Infinite, Kong Cyclone, those are all 3DS Era Bowser, Mac, and Rosaluma. The top players who don't use customs, and the masses who don't use customs, think this way because there hasn't been the experimentation that there is in default.
What you guys have is fantastic, but nothing beats the ability to have everything on your console, at home, with nobody else to rely on. And it's not your fault, it's the game's. Not everybody has the 3DS version either. If we could reliably count on every smash player having the 3DS version this would me much, much more easily solved.I understand your point and I agree. The biggest problem is access. Me and my team made is very well know that we would give everyone customs via DS if they wanted to bring their consoles to tournaments and smash fests.
We put in a lot of time to make sure everyone was aware of customs and had access to them. I think we did very well (if I do say so myself
It got so bad that higher level players purposely played the custom DK's and Villagers in order to frustrate players into thinking customs were no good for competition.
Also, what you call laziness, I call overloading. Customs are great, but there's a LOT more content than default to work with and learn and find counters for. Even in the best case scenario, that mens the customs meta would evolve at a slower rate than the default meta. Plus, how long has your scene had customs in a just-barely-suboptimal form? The longer your scene has, the more it'll evolve its meta
Epok
Smash Ace
This is very true. Nintendo did a very underwhelming job at introducing customs. If anything is was a ploy at replay value that turned into unending "grind sessions" were that time that could have been spent training in order to get customs.
Overloading may be a better term, but when I regularly hear things like "I don't want to have to learn how to fight against custom DK." It makes me doubt the competitive resolve of some people. I thought is that you would treat it like any other situation where you prioritize your major problems first. See what the meta is like in your area and train accordingly. To me that's not too much different without customs.
Unfortunately, we haven't used customs since the summer. Since East MI is probably about 3 times the size of West MI it makes it hard to get them to participate with customs. We decided the divide wasn't worth having customs(I weep). I personally didn't like the outcome, but then again I am not the only person with an opinion. I felt like we lost something that made us "us".
Raijinken
Smash Master
As the driving force in my own Smash scene (pre-graduation when I moved hours from everyone else), I basically just forced everyone to learn the moves, as I had them all, and use at least some custom loadout on every character. Their other option was to sit around and play at home alone, so they adapted. Now, in my group, only one player is still opposed (my own brother), and all but three make regular use of the moves.
And no amount of Kong Cyclone has given our DK main a win over any character I'm competent at.
And no amount of Kong Cyclone has given our DK main a win over any character I'm competent at.
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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Customs aren't dominant because people are lazy or just plain conservative. Give or take.
Too lazy to obtain or too lazy to learn. All it is. By removing Customs and by extension the selling point of Mii Fighters and Palutena, they no longer have to worry about people bringing in a unpredictable movepool or farming them for either their characters or everyone.
Only those who specialize in certain characters will go that extra mile to find uses for all the variations of their 4 special attacks.
But fret not Ryu can enhance his own attacks(EX versions) and so will Cloud Strife(Limit Break stacks) so we can have enhanced or customized versions of moves in a non-custom ruleset.
Every time I play with a guy who doesn't want customs my Ganon cries.
Too lazy to obtain or too lazy to learn. All it is. By removing Customs and by extension the selling point of Mii Fighters and Palutena, they no longer have to worry about people bringing in a unpredictable movepool or farming them for either their characters or everyone.
Only those who specialize in certain characters will go that extra mile to find uses for all the variations of their 4 special attacks.
But fret not Ryu can enhance his own attacks(EX versions) and so will Cloud Strife(Limit Break stacks) so we can have enhanced or customized versions of moves in a non-custom ruleset.
Every time I play with a guy who doesn't want customs my Ganon cries.
ぱみゅ
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Who ever said it was a bad thing?
A lot of moves are spammable, so what? these are simply more moves to deal with, but nothing it can't be done.
Once again, there is no evidence of the opposite either.
By default having more viable characters *is* a form of a better balance.
Hammer Spindash might be on the list. Spindash is primarily a punishing move so it's not something a Sonic would really spam all the time (unless you count SD Cancels).
Thunder Wave is strictly inferior at Neutral than Thunderjolt. Doesn't cover as much distance, has a lot more cooldown, and neither is too reliable to hit at that time (most of its mileage will come from bad positions or commitments by the opponent).
Kong Cyclone isn't spammable against an opponent that knows what to do to punish it.
I considered Lucas' PK Fire but I thought it was slightly inferior to Fireballs and Thunderjolt.
Egg Toss is definitely worthy of being on that Top 10. Possibly right above Timber Counter.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Vaccines are essentially antibody training and don't normally do much if the sickness has already gotten a grip IIRC. It's preparation for another bad thing later. Unless we're preparing for SSB4-, there's not a strong similarity.
And having more stupid good tools further makes those that lack them suffer. Customs are ultimately a trade-off and not inherently better then the current meta. If they were then this wouldn't even be a conversation.
Oh, I'm sure I could find a comment of you said that, and if not you then most of the other supporters in the topic.Who ever said it was a bad thing?
A lot of moves are spammable, so what? these are simply more moves to deal with, but nothing it can't be done.
So what? So why further choke the disadvantaged, that's what. How long are we going to have to go in circles here?
ぱみゅ
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Now you're just dodging the point.
Spamming moves is not a bad thing. Spamming good moves is just an attempt to play efficiently.
Customs are not better than the current top tools, bad character that can't deal with good tools are bad and will still be bad no matter if we add or remove those moves. They do not become better or worse. So adding these tools does not hurt the overall metagame, it will add characters to the list of those able to perform or beat these strategies.
We're going circles because we're on different sides, I say there's nothing wrong, you say everything is wrong.
Spamming moves is not a bad thing. Spamming good moves is just an attempt to play efficiently.
Customs are not better than the current top tools, bad character that can't deal with good tools are bad and will still be bad no matter if we add or remove those moves. They do not become better or worse. So adding these tools does not hurt the overall metagame, it will add characters to the list of those able to perform or beat these strategies.
We're going circles because we're on different sides, I say there's nothing wrong, you say everything is wrong.
Ansou
Smash Ace
Just because there are slightly more spammable tools present in the customs on mode it doesn't mean that the meta will be any more about spamming attacks. Sure, you can use these attacks when your opponent isn't really doing anything but a lot of the time it's not going to give you much reward.
Needle Storm. Yes, it is spammable. Yes, it is annoying. And yes, it's a really good move. But it isn't really good and annoying just because it is spammable. It is good because it is really fast and it can shut down a lot of options. Also, it does a solid 10% damage if charged. These properties aren't really shared by Shooting Star Bit or whatever. I'm not saying that spammable moves such as Shooting Star Bit or Fireball provide no reward, they are indeed useful for making your opponent approach in a bit more careful way. What I'm trying to say is that the meta doesn't become a spam fest just because there are a couple more spammable tools in the game itself.
As for moves that kill early which are also called "jank", that's a topic that is different from spammable moves. I would say that those moves affect the meta a bit more than the spam moves, but if they affect it in a bad or good way is up to opinion.
Needle Storm. Yes, it is spammable. Yes, it is annoying. And yes, it's a really good move. But it isn't really good and annoying just because it is spammable. It is good because it is really fast and it can shut down a lot of options. Also, it does a solid 10% damage if charged. These properties aren't really shared by Shooting Star Bit or whatever. I'm not saying that spammable moves such as Shooting Star Bit or Fireball provide no reward, they are indeed useful for making your opponent approach in a bit more careful way. What I'm trying to say is that the meta doesn't become a spam fest just because there are a couple more spammable tools in the game itself.
As for moves that kill early which are also called "jank", that's a topic that is different from spammable moves. I would say that those moves affect the meta a bit more than the spam moves, but if they affect it in a bad or good way is up to opinion.
Raijinken
Smash Master
If spammability is the new grounds for a ban, good bye, Sheik, and take your stupid f-air with you.
The jank argument has become like calling your debate opponent stupid. It's meaningless, and only holds value to users as opponents of something.
The jank argument has become like calling your debate opponent stupid. It's meaningless, and only holds value to users as opponents of something.
GeneralLedge
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Spammability means predictability.
If you think Kong Cyclone is broken, you are bad at video games. There is no negotiation. Your opponent is using the same move repeatedly, and rather than realize they're using the same move repeatedly and giving you ample application to learn how it functions, you retreat into your happy place and refuse to learn a new thing or how to beat the new thing. You refuse to improve, and you blame the game for your personal failures.
I weep for the players who refused to jump over the first Goomba in Super Mario Brothers.
I hope, sincerely, that the top players are only refusing customs so long as they don't understand the non-customs meta. Because it would really suck if we learned the inside and out of non-customs, and never opted to introduce custom moves to change things up.
And if the top players are top players exclusively because they refuse to learn how to adapt to new things, I don't know how I should feel about that. I thought this was why ZeRo had a pocket Diddy? I thought we saw this happen when Nairo learned and beat his pocket Diddy? Was that not exciting? Was nobody entertained? I guess not. Custom moves would mean a lot of that.
If you think Kong Cyclone is broken, you are bad at video games. There is no negotiation. Your opponent is using the same move repeatedly, and rather than realize they're using the same move repeatedly and giving you ample application to learn how it functions, you retreat into your happy place and refuse to learn a new thing or how to beat the new thing. You refuse to improve, and you blame the game for your personal failures.
I weep for the players who refused to jump over the first Goomba in Super Mario Brothers.
I hope, sincerely, that the top players are only refusing customs so long as they don't understand the non-customs meta. Because it would really suck if we learned the inside and out of non-customs, and never opted to introduce custom moves to change things up.
And if the top players are top players exclusively because they refuse to learn how to adapt to new things, I don't know how I should feel about that. I thought this was why ZeRo had a pocket Diddy? I thought we saw this happen when Nairo learned and beat his pocket Diddy? Was that not exciting? Was nobody entertained? I guess not. Custom moves would mean a lot of that.
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
You can't just measure these moves in a vacuum. Yes, it's hard to find a single move better then needles, but giving stuff like that to other characters like Mario or Fox puts them on a whole other level. You're making an S tier and a new lowest tier with customs on, or you're just exasperating previous problems without fixing anything at best. Where is this supposed improved balance? How many characters actually become well and truly viable with customs on?Now you're just dodging the point.
Spamming moves is not a bad thing. Spamming good moves is just an attempt to play efficiently.
Customs are not better than the current top tools, bad character that can't deal with good tools are bad and will still be bad no matter if we add or remove those moves. They do not become better or worse. So adding these tools does not hurt the overall metagame, it will add characters to the list of those able to perform or beat these strategies.
We're going circles because we're on different sides, I say there's nothing wrong, you say everything is wrong.
There's a difference between a ban and a toggle. By turning on customs you're banning the forced defaults only play, much like how turning on items bans forced no items play or allowing Mega Rayquaza bans forced no Mega Ray play.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
are the first ones to come into mind.Others that I'm not sure if customs is enough to make them really that viable but are notable nonetheless are
GeneralLedge
Smash Journeyman
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I found it. You're one of us, aren't you? You thought you could fool us, but I figured you out.
You should read the last part of my post, it wasn't in response to you specifically but I discussed this in more detail.
Epok
Smash Ace
The concept of spamming moves is in pretty much every fighter. If anything, Smash is one of the only games I know that actually has some sort of punishment for using the move repeatedly through stale move negation.
Spamming exists in sports as well. Are you gonna get mad at a boxer because they spam jabs? Or a baseball player for only throwing 90 mph fastballs because his opponents cant hit it? Probably not.
We wont know what the meta will bring if we don't give customs more of a chance to evolve. At worst, the tournament results have showed us that they aren't really a problem competition wise. Just some odd match ups that require lab work for middle level players.
No offense, but the argument about "allowing one format is effectively banning another" is a little odd to me. It would be different if customs on meant regular moves off. But with customs on you still have access to all your basics and then some. I guess it turns into: Is it better to force people to play with more options, or less options?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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I think it's better to have all options available and let people make their own decision on what they want to use.
If we want to force less options I totally wouldn't mind the Joystick and one button playstyle. If you know what I mean.
If we want to force less options I totally wouldn't mind the Joystick and one button playstyle. If you know what I mean.
GeneralLedge
Smash Journeyman
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Let's shift back to the Chess/Checkers analogy earlier in the topic: (EDIT: That I probably totally misremembered but whether I misremembered it or not shouldn't distract from these questions)
Which is the better game? Chess or Checkers?
And if that trick-question doesn't make you sputter in disbelief enough, here's a follow-up:
Does the existence of one nullify the presence of the other?
Which is the better game? Chess or Checkers?
And if that trick-question doesn't make you sputter in disbelief enough, here's a follow-up:
Does the existence of one nullify the presence of the other?
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LancerStaff
Smash Hero
I don't think customs really save Kirby. Jumping inhale, while still good, doesn't have as big an impact after the Fthrow (IIRC) buff. Uppercutter is also great but all together it doesn't really fix his core problems that most characters can heavily abuse. Dorf, Doc and Mac have some nice pluses but they're also characters that would inherently lose harder to what's added with customs. WFT and Palutena I think that, more or less, people are severely underrating their defaults and overrating how strong their customs are. I also find it hard to call Palutena viable with customs and WFT strictly unviable without, so yeah. Besides Marth I don't think we can say with certainty that any of those characters become viable, and Crescent Slash is looking pretty high up on the to nerf list right about now.
Others that I'm not sure if customs is enough to make them really that viable but are notable nonetheless are
Meanwhile we have very clear and large buffs granted to top tier characters with customs on, and plenty of characters that suffer as a result. My point is that I don't see how anybody can tell me with a straight face that customs are "obviously" more balanced then defaults.
Been saying this ever since people came up with the whole "you're just banning to ban things" cockamainy nonsense. What about it?I found it. You're one of us, aren't you? You thought you could fool us, but I figured you out.
It's not about spam, it's about having less effective options. Making a character stronger wouldn't necessarily give it more depth. Likewise, there's very little choice in what customs you bring to a match. Even Palutena is severely lacking in depth of choice.
If it's odd, then why doesn't items play have a real following? Because if you turn off everything explosive then you can effectively ignore the items while still giving your opponent the choice. It's the same exact situation.
Isn't checkers effectively solved? Ignoring that then one isn't inherently better. But they're also not 80% the same game and competing for the same spot at tournaments either.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Chess, according to most people who play both, though Checkers certainly has its fans.
Me, I prefer Shogi over both.
But that's the issue. There's no large-scale interest from skilled players in letting an alternate meta even be played competitively. No concession of coexistence, just slaughter.
ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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Thought:
How much would we benefit from a subforum dedicated to Custom moves?
Consolidating all the information to one location would probably help a lot, including consolidating general complaints to their own topics, as opposed to a thread derailer.
No to imply this thread itself is being derailed or anything, but the core issue of customs doesn't appear to be worked on at the moment. Maybe it is behind the scenes, but why is it behind the scenes at all?
How much would we benefit from a subforum dedicated to Custom moves?
Consolidating all the information to one location would probably help a lot, including consolidating general complaints to their own topics, as opposed to a thread derailer.
No to imply this thread itself is being derailed or anything, but the core issue of customs doesn't appear to be worked on at the moment. Maybe it is behind the scenes, but why is it behind the scenes at all?
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MagiusNecros
Smash Master
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That's the problem. People want it to be one or the other and can't just have both.
Epok
Smash Ace
You may have a point with the concept of the character itself not having more depth, but you can't deny that the custom moves do help characters improve and become more tournament viable. If more characters are tournament viable then that allows for more depth in the competitive meta. What will yield a deeper meta game 5 viable characters or 8? (throwing out random numbers for an example lol). Certain moves may be better for certain match ups, which would make the game even more complex. Honestly the meta was neutered before we were really able to see what it could do. Also, the fact that more and more characters have slowly become viable and winning/placing high in tournaments, customs would have accelerated that effect.
There are lot's of reason that the items argument doesn't fit well here. First of all, items were in the early competitive scene for melee and we all know the obvious reason why it made sense to ban them. You can just flat out ignore items if the are on the map anyway. What if you want to dash attack and you pick up an item? or you smash attack hits a box instead of an opponent? They basically become obstructions in the game that SEVERELY imbalance play. That's like deciding to go game 1 to Pyrosphere and we'll just ignore the lava...
Your argument seems to be based on the assumption that we think Customs Off Sheik is great character design. She's obviously not. That's exactly why we don't want more characters turning into her.
I always liked Reversi, which is more limited than Chess but less so than Checkers. It currently remains unsolved, though mathematicians believe it will be a draw with optimal play (like Checkers).
I've actually spent a long time talking about this concept, as it happens. For example, I've long been a supporter of SimCity Classic over SimCity 2000, as I feel that Classic has much tighter gameplay mechanics. In Classic, every type of structure you can build is relevant and everything has reasonable strengths and tradeoffs. In SimCity 2000, sure, you have more options, but many of them are redundant, so they don't really add much to the game and IMO they simply muddy a winning formula. There's a pretty clear analogy to this situation to be drawn here.
Unfortunately, logistics basically requires us to choose. We're already frustrating the FGC enough with our inability to choose between Smash 4 and Melee, now you want us to tell Mr. Wizard we need two Smash 4 tournaments at EVO? It's not gonna happen.
Incidentally, if Apex wants to run both, I fully support the exercise, but as a Customs On fan it's probably not what you want. I'm very confident the customs off tournament will be heavily favoured by both players and spectators and it would probably cement the fate of Customs.
Sure we can. Jigglypuff is clearly less tournament viable in Customs On, because she barely gets any better while characters like Rosalina, Palutena, Pikachu, Sonic, etc, get substantially better. Just because a character improves doesn't mean they improve relative to the rest of the cast. Some people clearly don't.
And yet the choice to ban items does not impact all characters equally. Besides the obvious case of certain characters using items in different ways, the choice to remove items hits characters with stronger stage control harder than those with less stage control (since they are more likely to be able to obtain the items). There are some moves that are good for dealing with items as well (reflectors, Link's shield, armored attacks, etc) which become less useful when items are turned off.
I think many people would also agree that the character roster is more balanced with items on, but we still decided that we don't want to play the game this way.
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PKBeam
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How many people here believe that customs on should be the sole option in tournaments?
ZarroTsu
Smash Journeyman
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Both, would be nice. I can't understand why we couldn't run both. We already run Melee and Smash 4. We didn't suddenly drop Melee as soon as Smash 4 came out.
Heck, did we drop Brawl or Melee when Project M came out? Or do we run the three individually? Why would we run both Brawl and Project M if they're the same core game?
Heck, did we drop Brawl or Melee when Project M came out? Or do we run the three individually? Why would we run both Brawl and Project M if they're the same core game?
Wintropy
Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
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They're not, Palutena's defaults are terrible.
They're not, Palutena's customs are great.
Thing with customs-on is that it doesn't negate people from playing without customs.
I don't know if customs-on is the best sole option to have, but right now, I'd even settle for gentlemanning customs-on.