What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[MagiusNecros]

Giving a unified argument for customs will mean nothing if you have a well known top level player say "lol no" with no real reason other then "I might have to try harder" and mostly everyone treats that person's word as law because evidently a majority of players have no wills of their own and must be a "me too". If that is to be the fate of customs that's fine. I'll just care about the "meta" that much less and play how I want in my little Castle on the cliff over there.

 

[Raijinken]

Giving a unified argument for customs will mean nothing if you have a well known top level player say "lol no" with no real reason other then "I might have to try harder" and mostly everyone treats that person's word as law because evidently a majority of players have no wills of their own and must be a "me too". If that is to be the fate of customs that's fine. I'll just care about the "meta" that much less and play how I want in my little Castle on the cliff over there.

I want the key to this castle!

The debate has especially stagnated now that most of the "lol no" players are tired of trying to explain their arguments (regardless of validity), and most of the pro-customs players are exasperated with the lolnos' evasion of resolution.

Each side thinks the other is wrong, and the side in power is determined to exterminate the remaining supporters of customs through attrition.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

EVO didn't turn out well. People overwhelmingly ignored customs in a sort of gentleman's rule or protest. It was a failure for customs because now everybody thinks less of them.

Question. What would you have considered to be the absolute best case scenario for customs at EVO?

 

[Ansou]

Very few people actually care that much. Mostly it's for "muh viability." We're not making a major metagame change so a couple people can goof off with weird customs... Can't you just do that online with friends? If we're going to switch to customs we're going to do it for something more concrete then that.

Since when does playing with a toolkit that fits the player equate to "goof off with weird customs"? No, I'm talking about being able to enter tournaments with a toolkit of the player's preference, not about spamming a move because it looks funny or something.

One of the big reasons that we would want the game to be more balanced is because it would mean that more people can pick a character that they like to play with and perform better than what they would do if the character wouldn't be viable. So the bottom line for that is that people want to be able to play with characters that fit their preference. And yes, many people pick characters because they like the feeling of the character's toolkit, not only because they like the character itself.

So why aren't we making this metagame change? Because it's annoying to learn new stuff or because it requires a little more work on the logistics end? Well, I guess most people see the issue of customs as the question of if being able to play with preferred toolkits is worth having to learn more moves and putting custom moves on the Wii Us.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So why aren't we making this metagame change? Because it's annoying to learn new stuff or because it requires a little more work on the logistics end? Well, I guess most people see the issue of customs as the question of if being able to play with preferred toolkits is worth having to learn more moves and putting custom moves on the Wii Us.

We're not making this metagame change because the second we do so, we will no longer have the entire Smash 4 playerbase on board. Because customs are unlockable, and a pain in the butt to unlock, there will always be a portion of the playerbase who can't use customs even if they wanted to because there aren't enough hours in the day to unlock all of them. And that means they can't practice with customs, so they can't learn how to win in a customs meta. THIS is the reason why the burden of proof will always be on the customs players, because we need to basically eliminate that issue in order to proceed with a customs meta. And that's why this whole debate is kind of pointless. Whatever the merits of customs are, regardless of whether the customs meta would be better or worse than the default meta, it doesn't matter because customs ruins the ease of access that makes Smash 4 so great. If customs were easier to unlock or were all unlocked from the get-go, this debate might actually be relevant.

 

[Epok]

Not saying this is the best solution but, how bad would it be if we made individual players responsible for bringing their own customs they wish to play as via DS?

They could play with whatever set up they chose and tournaments wouldn't have to worry about logistics of making sure all setups have full customs.

I know it's pretty "spitbally", but I think that we should try to find some sort of compromise with this scenario because the "all or nothing" vibe of customs make it hard to see any progress.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Not saying this is the best solution but, how bad would it be if we made individual players responsible for bringing their own customs they wish to play as via DS?

They could play with whatever set up they chose and tournaments wouldn't have to worry about logistics of making sure all setups have full customs.

I know it's pretty "spitbally", but I think that we should try to find some sort of compromise with this scenario because the "all or nothing" vibe of customs make it hard to see any progress.

Okay, but then what do you do if you have players who don't have customs? They can't really practice against them on their own time so they're left to deal with something they don't understand. I feel like if you do that, someone's at an unfair disadvantage.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, but then what do you do if you have players who don't have customs? They can't really practice against them on their own time so they're left to deal with something they don't understand. I feel like if you do that, someone's at an unfair disadvantage.

Technically you can say the same thing of DLC characters and stages. /devilsadvocate

 

[Epok]

Okay, but then what do you do if you have players who don't have customs? They can't really practice against them on their own time so they're left to deal with something they don't understand. I feel like if you do that, someone's at an unfair disadvantage.

LOL I was writing this as you made your post. As soon as I read that I was like "this is awkward".

I feel like the part of smash community that is wanting to make customs viable needs to do their best to make sure that players have the opportunity to get familiar with customs. Like I said before, my TO team spent a lot of time getting the CMP onto anyone who was willing to bring their wiiu to an event so that if not that tournament, next one they would be more familiar. At least it gives some sort of mutual responsibility where TO's can help you out if you are willing to come to an event and get customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Gee I'd hate to lose a tournament because I can't practice against human players of Sheik, Rosalina, or Olimar, as my internet is bad and my few Smash-playing friends don't play those characters. Olimar, especially, is such a low-popularity character, that it's a wonder anyone gets to practice against him.

Wait. That argument is considered a john, and people are encouraged to spend time at tournaments in friendlies working on their matchup knowledge.

I think I might have just made a breakthrough. No wait, we've known that since release.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Players who want to get the opportunity to be familiar with custom moves need to go to tournies with rulesets for customs(but we won't allow them so people don't have to learn ****) OR get off their lazy asses and unlock that ****(but people are lazy and won't because they just want someone to bring the custom moves to them because the game has a ridiculous design on acquiring them. Thanks Sakurai. I really enjoy Smash Run but Trash Tour is garbage and Crazy Orders is super RNG).

Or even just bring your 3DS version and upload YOUR own preference. But we couldn't ask THAT much of you now can we. After all you might not have access to the 3DS version of the game because you weren't hipster enough to get both versions.

Gonna repeat myself but the only reason people want to do away with Customs is so they don't have to worry about them showing up in tournaments so they can win their matches without a hitch since the matchup knowledge is already known to them.

A DLC character is no big deal to them since it's a one and done buy off the e-shop and they can make the effort to learn one more matchup for their character they have the desired playstyle nailed down for.

But customs aw hell no we'll have to unlock stuff for over 50 characters and learn over 50 variable matchups and possibly multiply them? Too much work. Too much depth. Much change to meta. Ban customs instead. Rip Mii Fighter( a 3 in one at that) and Palutena. Hope your selling points weren't just all about custom moves. Oh wait. They were.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I don't think I've posted on this particular thread yet, but I have some thoughts;

In order to potentially get customs back on its feet for those who dropped them due to misinformation or claiming it was "jank", perhaps some form of a video debunking old claims would be a good start, or a massive analysis post you can get exposed through the media that explains the merits of having them and come up with a good compromise. Because in my time lurking on here, custom supporters seem to want a variety of one of the following things; upload your own sets which is obviously only possible if you have a 3DS and I do not believe this will work as it's costly to live on this god forsaken planet, and people already just now explained why that is far from viable. Use the (as far as I'm aware) current EVO custom sets, which would limit the creative possibilities of the variables and such you could set, but would put everyone at equal footing and give what is considered by the community the most optimum setups. Others think he full 10 custom sets is excessive and needs to trim the fat down. And then of course those who don't want customs in the meta. Where exactly do you go? People have very valid points on why customs are by no means broken or hurt the meta to have, why not try to expose that more broadly to the public as a whole?

Get custom tournaments streamed. I've seen a few random ones from good regions from time to time, but we need more dropped in. General exposure is always good, and unless you don't have the means of streaming it, just running or alternating between default and custom tournaments is the next best thing you can do.

People insist Kong Cyclone and other customs are flat out unfair and easy to abuse while those who have played against it more in tournament itself recently think completely otherwise. Get facts out, lets eliminate a lot of the misinformation that is spread about things and help develop the customs meta to majors as it should be, or get it at the very least more globally liked and not so grossly disdained by all. In order of things I think should happen;

• Debunk the crap that is believed to be laughed at and wrong; video evidence, frame data, explain why people are wrong in particular "toxic", as the public would view it, customs and why they deserve a chance.
• Try running a custom tournament of your own. Whatever your rules are, just try it and see. Nothing is obviously concrete as of right now. It's just a matter of exposing the scene at all.
• And going along exposure, stream or record them and post sets on Youtube.
• With exposure may come interest and concern, and the concern of which would be offset potentially with evidence.
• I don't think we're at the point yet where the amount of customs, the banning of customs individually, or anything else should be concrete yet. I see different things from different streams every time and that's fine in my honest opinion. The fact that the already streamed custom tournaments even exist is amazing enough in its own right. But of course over time if it gets big again or at least more widely accepted, people will want to know how they will be utilized.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't think I've posted on this particular thread yet, but I have some thoughts;

In order to potentially get customs back on its feet for those who dropped them due to misinformation or claiming it was "jank", perhaps some form of a video debunking old claims would be a good start

I generally agree with much of your statement, and would like to respond to this particular point with this months-old movie which does the exact thing you requested.

The only issue is, people are fully capable enough of seeing this, thinking "too hard", and continuing to push for a ban.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And that's exactly the problem. People would rather not try. They believe what they have is GOOD ENOUGH. Ignorance breeds negligence. And damn does it really show.

 

[Wintropy]

People insist Chopper Kong and other customs are flat out unfair and easy to abuse while those who have played against it more in tournament itself recently think completely otherwise.

Not to diminish what you're saying, it's a good post, but I think you mean Kong Cyclone. Kong Cyclone is the one with the windbox effect that's often considered the poster child of "jank" customs (even though it isn't); Chopper Kong is the one that sends DK upwards very quickly but is otherwise kind of redundant.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Not to diminish what you're saying, it's a good post, but I think you mean Kong Cyclone. Kong Cyclone is the one with the windbox effect that's often considered the poster child of "jank" customs (even though it isn't); Chopper Kong is the one that sends DK upwards very quickly but is otherwise kind of redundant.

What are you talking about, Chopper Kong is so broken, doesn't even do damage, wtf. Please ban.

Thanks for catching that, though, I just fixed it. I hate when I overlook small things like that, forgive me.

 

[Wintropy]

Thanks for catching that, though, I just fixed it. I hate when I overlook small things like that, forgive me.

It's fine! I didn't mean to come off as an obsessive pedant, but I thought it'd be better for the project as a whole to get the details right. We good~

On-topic: getting people to experience customs firsthand is a good step in the right direction. I know quite a few people who, outside of logistical concerns, don't really have an inherent distaste for customs - they just don't know what they bring to the table or don't think they're worth considering. I think it'd be great to organise customs brackets for that reason, it'd help educate people on how customs work and the benefits of integrating them into the wider meta.

Education is the best method of defeating fear. It might not necessarily generate interest in customs, but it'd definitely help combat the ignorance that has otherwise been a consistent trend in the community.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's fine! I didn't mean to come off as an obsessive pedant, but I thought it'd be better for the project as a whole to get the details right. We good~

On-topic: getting people to experience customs firsthand is a good step in the right direction. I know quite a few people who, outside of logistical concerns, don't really have an inherent distaste for customs - they just don't know what they bring to the table or don't think they're worth considering. I think it'd be great to organise customs brackets for that reason, it'd help educate people on how customs work and the benefits of integrating them into the wider meta.

Education is the best method of defeating fear. It might not necessarily generate interest in customs, but it'd definitely help combat the ignorance that has otherwise been a consistent trend in the community.

Be obsessive. To get anything done you have to complain until you are blue in the mouth.

Education beats fear but the fearful fear education for this game and don't want to help themselves to "free knowledge".

 

[Epok]

I also think we need to work from the bottom up on this one. Top players are going to be changing their stances on customs anytime soon. If we can start with the bulk of the player base, being your mid/low level players, you may be able to sway the top few by making the way the see the game seem "outdated".

 

[PoptartLord]

@Rizen: your post is so full with flaws OMG, I want to reply but it's 2am so I miiiiight get to it later, if Poptart doesn't do it first.

It's all yours; I'm not exactly on every day to respond to everything myself. Like how I'm responding to this 17 days later (my bad). Besides, if I didn't want other people to chime in I'd use the PM system.

Then a couple others chimed in and were commenting on the whole "I'd main Marth in customs" secretly meaning "I'd main Marth if he was cheesy again."

It's painful how true this is. Especially because of how bad of an idea that is. Marth really doesn't like to play in grab range, so basing your whole gameplan around grabs is just... well, stupid.

but pretty much everyone on the pro-customs side lists "better balance" as one of the main upsides of Customs

I don't! My stance is that it's the new (and possibly defining) feature of the game and should be embraced. The aspect of balance that matters is that it's not unbalanced.

Thought:

How much would we benefit from a subforum dedicated to Custom moves?

Consolidating all the information to one location would probably help a lot, including consolidating general complaints to their own topics, as opposed to a thread derailer.

No to imply this thread itself is being derailed or anything, but the core issue of customs doesn't appear to be worked on at the moment. Maybe it is behind the scenes, but why is it behind the scenes at all?

Interesting. Ideally that would be organically integrated in the individual character boards, but given the state of things I can see the merit to the consolidation. I imagine there would be threads on new combo videos, displays of niche use cases, and a line of debunking videos. Do you have any good candidates for moderators / who thinks they would be up to the task?

How many people here believe that customs on should be the sole option in tournaments?

I do! Mainly because they shouldn't have been off in the first place. And just to be clear, 1111 is a valid choice.

People love characters, not moves.

Yes and no. Because I like the character I play Link in every game. Because I like the moves (interpreted as character philosophy + design + execution) I play Marth in every game.

1123 Marth is not a different character from 1111 Marth. It is a subset/variation, which I believe is the word you're looking for. No matter how much the playstyle may change, that's still Marth. That's one character you see on the CSS, not 81, and the total character amount is ~55, not >4000.

This is absolutely correct. Why can't more people realize this? Note: I have heard, on several occasions, in words, from actual people, in the same room!, that the different subsets are instead different characters. If not literally then figuratively.

SITUATION 1
A: "I want to play this character, is below mediocre normally, but with customs is usable"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "Well, no but..."
B: "Then it doesn't change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your trivial tastes"

SITUATION 2
A: "I want to play this character, is somewhat usable normally, but is good with customs"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "It is!"
B: "Then it might change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your broken tastes"

Just chiming in to second (third? fourth?) that I have also heard/read both arguments, and this is not a straw-man post. Not in those *exact* words, but the underlying meaning was there.

It's a symptom of a much larger problem: lack of easy access.

I agree that easy access is an issue. If you play the whole game, or even just filling out the whole challenge board, you'll get most of them naturally and need little grinding time. But let's say all you do is play Smash mode on tournament friendly stages - you'll need a lot of grinding time and yes, that will be unpleasant. That shouldn't be unexpected since you're skipping a lot of content. I have a suggestion to alleviate the boredom of grinding. Start by using one of the turbo controller methods, but use a regular controller instead (unless you have a turbo controller; I and many others sure don't). Just manually press 'A' every second or so. The key is this - change the tv input to the tv or a movie while grinding. The Wii U mirrors the output to the gamepad... use it! [I am going to look really silly if it doesn't do this in the mode in question; I'm just assuming from what I recall of random glances at my gamepad while playing]

Yes I know, the above doesn't solve the problem of easy access. Until save game hacking becomes a thing that's all I can offer. And now to segue to something I've been meaning to ask for a while now...

SERIOUS QUESTION TO EVERYONE:
The game has been out for a year now; how long until the "it takes too long to unlock" argument collapses upon itself?

Hear me out - assuming it takes ~2 weeks to unlock them, after a certain point the unlock time becomes a trivial expenditure. At the two month mark a 2 week investment is relatively large. We're past the one year mark now. Is the unlock time really that much of a barrier now? Skip ahead to the five year mark: after playing this game for five years can you still argue with a straight face that it still "takes too long"? Don't respond to this paragraph's questions, they're just to explain my main question.

-PoptartLord

 

[MagiusNecros]

Depends on how long it takes for people to look up the definition for the word "excuse".

I've had people not want to discuss anything about Xenoblade even though it was out for more then 2 years globally on the market. Because they had not gotten to play it yet, blaming it on their nonexistent "backlog". That's how petty people are.

People are just lazy. They can look up that word too. Incompetent or ineptitude are also some good ones.

 

[Raijinken]

SERIOUS QUESTION TO EVERYONE:
The game has been out for a year now; how long until the "it takes too long to unlock" argument collapses upon itself?

Hear me out - assuming it takes ~2 weeks to unlock them, after a certain point the unlock time becomes a trivial expenditure. At the two month mark a 2 week investment is relatively large. We're past the one year mark now. Is the unlock time really that much of a barrier now? Skip ahead to the five year mark: after playing this game for five years can you still argue with a straight face that it still "takes too long"? Don't respond to this paragraph's questions, they're just to explain my main question.

-PoptartLord

The "takes too long to unlock" argument collapsed on itself a month after release. If even a casual application of non-competitive play can get them all (or most, for that matter opponents have established that not all are actually used often) in a month or less, then the argument doesn't matter. It only means anything to people unwilling to work for it to begin with.

The following is satire, do not take the words to represent my opinion. I merely say this in mockery.

I do not find Smashville competitive because the balloon spawns randomly, the platform does not cross the stage in a multiple of ten seconds, and the bottom of the stage both allows scrooging and will hinder some recoveries that would otherwise work on Battlefield or Final Destionation. I also play smash purely competitively, and refuse to work with anything outside of the standard versus mode. The game is perfectly playable without Smashville, and entering Event Mode long enough to get it takes way too long. It is nonsense that people expect a true competitor to grind out events, HOPING to find the path that leads to Smashville's event, just for one optional stage that only detracts from the game. It's hidden for a reason, and no balance efforts have been put in place to fix the problematic interactions with the balloon, which amongst others, can severely hinder the effectiveness of Ness and projectile-heavy characters. The shift in metagame brought by legalizing Smashville will only cause people to leave. No amount of fanboyism can change the fact that it's a broken after-thought of a stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I do not find Smashville competitive because the balloon spawns randomly, the platform does not cross the stage in a multiple of ten seconds, and the bottom of the stage both allows scrooging and will hinder some recoveries that would otherwise work on Battlefield or Final Destionation.

I know you said this is satire, but the funny thing is that Smashville's platform does in fact take exactly 10 seconds to cross the stage one way.

Sorry, I just found that really amusing.

 

[Raijinken]

I know you said this is satire, but the funny thing is that Smashville's platform does in fact take exactly 10 seconds to cross the stage one way.

Sorry, I just found that really amusing.

Mis-information on my end, I thank you for the correction. But if you'd like to interpret it as adding to the satire by including blatantly false information that players with pertinent knowledge (such as yoursellf) are aware is false, then we'll pretend it was intentional.

 

[DunnoBro]

I unlocked all customs for about 4 Wii Us, excluding my own. The Turbo controller method only took a max of 4 days for any of them. The last two only took about two days.

It isn't ideal and I'm not suggesting this is acceptable but it's far from 2 weeks and will never be too big of a time investment. Honestly the way the CSS works for customs, and general player perception is the bigger issue. Hence why Mii specials are a much more doable goal.

 

[Epok]

I unlocked all customs for about 4 Wii Us, excluding my own. The Turbo controller method only took a max of 4 days for any of them. The last two only took about two days.

It isn't ideal and I'm not suggesting this is acceptable but it's far from 2 weeks and will never be too big of a time investment. Honestly the way the CSS works for customs, and general player perception is the bigger issue. Hence why Mii specials are a much more doable goal.

Is this two to four days nonstop?

 

[Raijinken]

Is this two to four days nonstop?

It's two to four days without actually having to do anything. The two week estimate is casually picking up Trophy Rush or Smash Run or whatever you feel like/have per game version from time to time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Or puting Trash tour on idle. If you start a game and do nothing for a few minutes the game will literally play itself for you.

 

[Raijinken]

Or puting Trash tour on idle. If you start a game and do nothing for a few minutes the game will literally play itself for you.

Slower, but yes, very passive, and covers the entire roster as far as character moves go. You can even turbo control it to make it go faster. Dunno how that would compare to Target Blast though.

 

[PoptartLord]

The two week estimate is casually picking up Trophy Rush or Smash Run or whatever you feel like/have per game version from time to time.

Or puting Trash tour on idle.

I just guesstimated how long it would take using any of the slow but passive/idle methods, assuming the only time spent was letting the system run overnight while you sleep. It's not like I tried using one of the quoted methods and timed it. I almost said 2-4 weeks but even with the repeats that seemed excessive.

So far the responses have been to the tune of "not very long". If there are dissenting opinions I'd like to hear for how long you think the argument can remain valid.

Honestly the way the CSS works for customs, and general player perception is the bigger issue.

Agreed. I still hear "takes too long to unlock" as one of the main points against them, though, and that's what prompted this little data gathering question of mine.

-PoptartLord

 

[MagiusNecros]

It doesn't take long for people who have a innate desire to unlock custom moves to do so. It takes too long for people who have no desire to unlock them at all.

Seems pretty clear to me. No data gathering required.

 

[Raijinken]

I just guesstimated how long it would take using any of the slow but passive/idle methods, assuming the only time spent was letting the system run overnight while you sleep. It's not like I tried using one of the quoted methods and timed it. I almost said 2-4 weeks but even with the repeats that seemed excessive.

So far the responses have been to the tune of "not very long". If there are dissenting opinions I'd like to hear for how long you think the argument can remain valid.


Agreed. I still hear "takes too long to unlock" as one of the main points against them, though, and that's what prompted this little data gathering question of mine.

-PoptartLord

My 2-week estimate is based on casual but intentional Trophy Rush on both consoles in between playing with friends. It's a safe and conservative long-scale estimate for people who want the moves but do not have an idle method or exceptionally good luck.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

The unlocking customs part is very much true, especially for Smash 4 growth. No casual or person who is semi / interested in smash competitivly wants to spend weeks unlocking customs or use methods that require prep. (Not everyone has a turbo controller or 3ds) and not everyone has money to afford it either. And what so happen if this new player does decide to be okay with customs but finds out that their character doesnt even have any customs? Imagine playing a character in mortal kombat with no variations while every other character has them and then to be told "tough luck".

ZeRo childhood is an example of this being a problem . IT IS A Barrier that will shoo people away from trying out Smash at a competitive level if customs were standard as it requires more $ and time then it already does to get into competitive Smash. IDK how to fix this solution

Overall I found this entire debate hypocritical since the Pro Customs doesn't care about the characters who get shafted in there meta while also ignoring DLC characters on the pretense of well "Ryu is already good" and ignoring the barrier entry. While anti customs either don't care enough, are to lazy, or simply have other reasons as to why they dislike customs. Obviously both sides just shaft different things for the things they prefer while failing to acknowledge if theother side is actually right; thus the only conclusion is by natural selection.

People are ultimately going to prefer what they like and Customs Off is the popular by certainty of course. Smash 4 is much more easily accessible within a customs off environment by the mass. Regardless if its actually a worse meta them custom on. Something thats more accessible and offers similar quality will be more popular (obvious right?)

TL;DR This is going nowhere in terms of progress

 

[MagiusNecros]

I have a big problem with treatment of DLC characters on the basis they were given no custom move variations. You pay for a character with less content then everyone else.

DLC characters are always going to be outclassed in that regard and only serve as a leverage tool towards a Non-customs meta.

 

[Raijinken]

I have a big problem with treatment of DLC characters on the basis they were given no custom move variations. You pay for a character with less content then everyone else.

DLC characters are always going to be outclassed in that regard and only serve as a leverage tool towards a Non-customs meta.

They're already out-classed in most regards.

I just write my rules that all characters may choose from 100% of their available movesets, excluding equipment.

 

[MagiusNecros]

They're already out-classed in most regards.

I just write my rules that all characters may choose from 100% of their available movesets, excluding equipment.

Which is all you can ever ask for.

 

[False]

Giving a unified argument for customs will mean nothing if you have a well known top level player say "lol no" with no real reason other then "I might have to try harder" and mostly everyone treats that person's word as law because evidently a majority of players have no wills of their own and must be a "me too". If that is to be the fate of customs that's fine. I'll just care about the "meta" that much less and play how I want in my little Castle on the cliff over there.

this is basically it. I agree with what you said.

however, the counter argument I hear often is that customs centralize special moves within certain characters, which stale gameplay and can serve as a 'band-aid' to those who might be lacking fundamentals.

 

[Raijinken]

this is basically it. I agree with what you said.

however, the counter argument I hear often is that customs centralize special moves within certain characters, which stale gameplay and can serve as a 'band-aid' to those who might be lacking fundamentals.

Are those grounds for banning the moves, though? It's completely heard of for characters to centralize around certain moves, specials included, for a variety of things, whether kills or neutral. People aren't fond of seeing Ganondorf zoom across the sky, but a crowd of similar size can't stand watching Zamus go for the same grab->uairs->upB combo repeatedly, either (just for example).

The complaint about band-aids doesn't make sense to me either, as we're playing a game that gets balance band-aids every few months.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Gonna concur with Raijin. The game gets a band aid every time a new patch pops up. Most counter arguments against the use of customs are rather baseless and amount to not wanting the game to change.

 

[False]

Are those grounds for banning the moves, though? It's completely heard of for characters to centralize around certain moves, specials included, for a variety of things, whether kills or neutral. People aren't fond of seeing Ganondorf zoom across the sky, but a crowd of similar size can't stand watching Zamus go for the same grab->uairs->upB combo repeatedly, either (just for example).

The complaint about band-aids doesn't make sense to me either, as we're playing a game that gets balance band-aids every few months.

although you get great reward off of landing ZSS grab, it's by no means an thing to land in higher levels of play... on whiff it's terrible, making risk/reward something to consider. as opposed to DK whirlwinding everything.. there's a gray area, because I think there are plenty of characters that would receive a buff that wouldn't be as button happy (Marth, WFT, Bowser, etc.) but customs like hammer spindash and trip sapling arguably deter interactions, deteriorate gameplay, and makes the game really not fun to watch tbh.