What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[MagiusNecros]

Personally the recent tournaments showcasing the same characters over and over again already makes the game not fun to watch. But to each his own.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Was kind of really disheartened last night playing friendlies after a tourney that a lot of people didn't want to play a few custom matches with me. With Luigi's garbo recovery I figured I'd give a serious look at his alternate side special options as well as the custom tornado variant, but nobody had any of that I'm afraid. They turned it right off and gah.

Worse is they know fully well how a lot of the customs work (supposedly), yet they still wanted nothing of it.

People aren't wrong when they say if something is gone in Smash, it's gone forever. I feel a huge part of what made our scene on the west side special is just gone, and peoples opinions of customs have swayed so hard that there's nothing that can be done about it anymore.

I encourage everyone who still has the pleasure of having customs run in your scene to hold onto it near and dear to you for as long as you can.

 

[Nu~]

It may not be the most logical decision, but I have decided to avoid going to any non custom tournaments.

It's just not the metagame I call home.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The hell is the point of friendlies if nobody wants to goof around and try new things?

Is there a dress code too, now?

 

[Ansou]

although you get great reward off of landing ZSS grab, it's by no means an thing to land in higher levels of play... on whiff it's terrible, making risk/reward something to consider. as opposed to DK whirlwinding everything.. there's a gray area, because I think there are plenty of characters that would receive a buff that wouldn't be as button happy (Marth, WFT, Bowser, etc.) but customs like hammer spindash and trip sapling arguably deter interactions, deteriorate gameplay, and makes the game really not fun to watch tbh.

Just like you say, it's really a mixed bag of moves that you get by turning on customs. Sure, some moves bring pretty slow gameplay and deter interactions, but that's just really a small portion of the moves. Also, the same kind of lame strategies are present in default and they will probably not take up a bigger part of the meta if it gets some time to settle. The same thing applies to Kong Cyclone; while it may seem super annoying and spammable at first, it will be pretty bad and not very used in a metagame where people know how to handle it. The moves that seem centralizing now in an unevolved meta will be just like any other move when everyone knows what to do against it.

 

[Raijinken]

It may not be the most logical decision, but I have decided to avoid going to any non custom tournaments.

It's just not the metagame I call home.

I made the same decision and it has cost me the ability to play in a tournament I don't host myself. But if your region still has those, count yourself lucky and go enjoy!

Just like you say, it's really a mixed bag of moves that you get by turning on customs. Sure, some moves bring pretty slow gameplay and deter interactions, but that's just really a small portion of the moves. Also, the same kind of lame strategies are present in default and they will probably not take up a bigger part of the meta if it gets some time to settle. The same thing applies to Kong Cyclone; while it may seem super annoying and spammable at first, it will be pretty bad and not very used in a metagame where people know how to handle it. The moves that seem centralizing now in an unevolved meta will be just like any other move when everyone knows what to do against it.

Preeeetty much that. The only way I enjoy a match with a Sonic in it is if he's getting facerolled hard enough to convince him to change mains. I still don't gripe so hard about Villager since Balloons got nerfed and trying to abuse it, with or without timber counter, is just begging to get spiked. Unfortunately, spiking is not a particularly strong option for most of the high tiers, bar Mario and situationally Rosalina (I don't think I would try to ledge-spike a Villager with Flip Kick but that's just me).

 

[David Viran]

Preeeetty much that. The only way I enjoy a match with a Sonic in it is if he's getting facerolled hard enough to convince him to change mains. I still don't gripe so hard about Villager since Balloons got nerfed and trying to abuse it, with or without timber counter, is just begging to get spiked. Unfortunately, spiking is not a particularly strong option for most of the high tiers, bar Mario and situationally Rosalina (I don't think I would try to ledge-spike a Villager with Flip Kick but that's just me).

Villager and sonic aren't all bad when you've got players like ranai, komokiri, or 6wx.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Villager and sonic aren't all bad when you've got players like ranai, komokiri, or 6wx.

But that's a player thing, not a character thing.
We also have Heero, Dabuz and M2K who are not afraid to run out the clock, regardless of Customs or Vanilla.

RE: @False The thing is that we now have new good moves with Customs. If they are good they will obviously serve a purpose, and we sometimes feel like we can get away with it, at least until someone smart enough comes and adapts/beats the strategy and the counterplay becomes standard.
The difference is that this subset of good moves can be switched off, and in order to simplify the game people pick that option.
Would you switch off Rosalina if you had the chance? Switch off TSRK? Switch off Ledgegrabs?

 

[Steelballray]

Thinking of these arguments more, I really dislike having to justify why customs are bad.

When I try to do that, it kind of implies that they are the norm that we wanted to alter, but in honesty its just a ****ty ass addition to this game like the stupid tour mode that has no place in competitive play to begin with. You guys are like the people who wanted pokefloat legal in melee.

Things like these make me appreaciate the Japanese scene a lot. No janky stages and no customs. Everything is so simplified and clear. But I guess you guys are different in that you really love the headache. Your mentality of "legal unless it's bad" is just wasting time. And what's worse than all of that is that the best you could do about things is complain like hell on the internet instead of actually making a move to IRL to support your cause.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Thinking of these arguments more, I really dislike having to justify why customs are bad.

When I try to do that, it kind of implies that they are the norm that we wanted to alter, but in honesty its just a ****ty *** addition to this game like the stupid tour mode that has no place in competitive play to begin with. You guys are like the people who wanted pokefloat legal in melee.

Things like these make me appreaciate the Japanese scene a lot. No janky stages and no customs. Everything is so simplified and clear. But I guess you guys are different in that you really love the headache. Your mentality of "legal unless it's bad" is just wasting time. And what's worse than all of that is that the best you could do about things is complain like hell on the internet instead of actually making a move to IRL to support your cause.

TFW you can give up on arguments and still win.

 

[Ansou]

When I try to do that, it kind of implies that they are the norm that we wanted to alter, but in honesty its just a ****ty *** addition to this game like the stupid tour mode that has no place in competitive play to begin with.

I guess that's where our opinions differ. You think that they are an addition that has no place in competitive play (not going to ask you to motivate because it doesn't seems like you want to do that), while I think they are simply a part of the game that we should utilize together with the rest of the game.

I actually used to think like you, that customization is not meant to be taken seriously. But that was back when I was a newbie that only played For Glory and thought that Final Destination was the only competitive stage (not because I disliked the other stages, but because I thought that was just the way it was supposed to be for competition). Then I actually played around with custom specials a bit and thought: "Huh, these are just like any other special moves, why couldn't they be used in competition?"

That's the thing with custom specials. They are really just like any other special moves. What I think is weird with not allowing custom specials is that that leaves us with a plethora of competitively suited game content that we just put away in a corner somewhere instead of doing something with it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I will say that allowing custom special moves adds more battle diversity. However, since all DLC characters are cursed with not having any, that literally limits their options.

Also, certain characters have very lousy custom special moves altogether, so they pretty much won't do any better in a customs bout than if everyone was required to use their default special moves. For an example, Jigglypuff's only real viable custom special move is Pound Blitz, while everything else is either situational or just garbage.

On the flopside, some of the lower-ranked characters do get a good buff with their custom special moves, such as with Ganondorf and his Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick. At the same time though, some of the higher ranking fighters have some highly viable custom special move as well, which is the case with Rosalina and her Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit.

 

[Steelballray]

Mario & Sonic Guy Luigi actually has good customs for side and neutral B. the fast missile and the ice ball are decent alternatives.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mario & Sonic Guy Luigi actually has good customs for side and neutral B. the fast missile and the ice ball are decent alternatives.

I actually removed that statement before you made that post.

 

[Ansou]

I will say that allowing custom special moves adds more battle diversity. However, since all DLC characters are cursed with not having any, that literally limits their options.

Also, certain characters have very lousy custom special moves altogether, so they pretty much won't do any better in a customs bout than if everyone was required to use their default special moves. For an example, Jigglypuff's only real viable custom special move is Pound Blitz, while everything else is either situational or just garbage.

On the flopside, some of the lower-ranked characters do get a good buff with their custom special moves, such as with Ganondorf and his Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick. At the same time though, some of the higher ranking fighters have some highly viable custom special move as well, which is the case with Rosalina and her Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit.

Yes, some characters have more powerful custom specials than others. Some characters don't have customizable specials at all. That's how Smash will always be. Different characters have different options. Even strong characters like Rosaluma, Sonic and Pikachu gain good custom specials when customization is turned on. But because those characters already have such good options, the custom specials don't make them much better compared to what lower tiers gain. That's just something that happens naturally when giving every character (except for DLC characters, which were designed that way) more options and isn't even something that we have to worry about.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm waiting for Sakurai to give DLC characters customs, one way or another, just so we can shoot that irrelevant point down (like with the customs and balance patches).

 

[Epok]

I'm waiting for Sakurai to give DLC characters customs, one way or another, just so we can shoot that irrelevant point down (like with the customs and balance patches).

I'm waiting for Sakurai to let me buy customs with all these smash coins I don't use...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'm waiting for Sakurai to let me buy customs with all these smash coins I don't use...

Likewise waiting for a real use for the 300 play coins I got.

 

[GunGuts]

Hey guys, first time posting here. What are some good Youtube and Twitch channels that regularly show custom tournaments?
I ask this because I usually watch Smash 4 on VGBC or Tourney Locator and I really want to see custom moves more.

I also ask this question to lead into my main post
I think that videos are a good way of showcasing custom moves in tournaments to the public. I haven't seen nearly as much custom matches as I want to since Evo, which is why I asked that question. I've become complacent with the current meta i.e., no custom moves, and I'm sure many people feel the same way I do. It would be enlightening for everyone, including me, to see matches of players well-versed in custom moves and maybe that would persuade some people to try them out. I'm certain that you guys are doing everything you can strengthen the custom meta, I'm just giving my opinion.

I have some suggestions. Maybe we could create a thread on this site showcasing exclusively custom matches, friendlies, or even casual games. You could show videos of any special tech regarding custom moves or general comparison between custom moves and default moves. Perhaps you could also get some videos on the home page.

This is my perspective on custom moves and I'm open to criticism. Thanks for reading this.


Off topic: I accidentally voted against customs, but I want to be for it. Is there a way to change it?

 

[Ansou]

What are some good Youtube and Twitch channels that regularly show custom tournaments?

I know that @Trifroze uploads videos of the tourneys held in Finland on this Youtube channel.

@Shieldbreakers has a monthly tournament called Smasher's Lair that is held in Stockholm, Sweden, which has customs, that is streamed on Twitch and uploaded on Youtube. I think the next one will be in exactly one week, on Friday 11/12.

@NextLevelStreaming has uploaded and streamed quite a bit of customs tourneys in Kansas, but I don't know if that channel is active anymore. @Amazing Ampharos do you know anything about that? Anyway, here's the Youtube channel and the Twitch channel.

Those are all that I know of right now unfortunately.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm waiting for Sakurai to let me buy customs with all these smash coins I don't use...

Yeah, of all of the great ideas never implemented, this would be a top choice.

Maybe then I could get the last two hats I need on the 3DS version to clear its challenge grid. Then I'd be able to let all my coins tarnish with age on both systems.

I know that @Trifroze uploads videos of the tourneys held in Finland on this Youtube channel.

@Shieldbreakers has a monthly tournament called Smasher's Lair that is held in Stockholm, Sweden, which has customs, that is streamed on Twitch and uploaded on Youtube. I think the next one will be in exactly one week, on Friday 11/12.

@NextLevelStreaming has uploaded and streamed quite a bit of customs tourneys in Kansas, but I don't know if that channel is active anymore. @Amazing Ampharos do you know anything about that? Anyway, here's the Youtube channel and the Twitch channel.

Those are all that I know of right now unfortunately.

I followed Shieldbreakers a while back but the time difference basically guarantees that they're on when I'm at work...

 

[paperchao]

I'm terms of match ups, what characters have the worst time adapting to the customs meta? I've been wondering about this for the past week, and want to know the true losers in customs.

 

[W.A.C.]

I expressed some of my views on Twitter, but I'll say it here Jasin more detail. While I am perfectly fine with customs being legal, I think it's better for Smash's competitive scene that we don't have most of the customs legal because of the lack of accessibility. They made it insanely difficult for people to unlock custom moves in this game to the point where allowing all of them in tournament makes this game considerably less accessible. Mii's and Palutena, on the other hand, do not have that restriction. Not only that, but they're the only characters in the game where all of their specials are radically different moves. Mii's were also designed with customization in mind and Palutena is about the only character in the game where her defaults make no sense in why they were chosen over other moves.

The ban on custom moves hurt Mii and Palutena players WAY more than anyone else. When I play as Dr. Mario with custom moves enabled, I feel like I'm just playing as Dr. Mario with some alterations to his kit that make him more viable, but still the same character. I don't feel a ton is lost to that character when restricted to default, yet when I play as Palutena or the Mii's with all of their specials altered, I feel like I'm playing an entirely different character because all of their specials are radically different. Most of the custom moves in this game were kind of half assed and those four characters are the exception. Mega Man also had legitimate effort put into his specials, but not to the extent of those four characters and his special moves lack accessibility. Going forward, I feel like those in support of custom moves should primarily focus on just Mii's and Palutena.

You're not going to win a battle for full customs legalization unless massive changes happen in an update that make customs way more accessible and less gimmicky, but having Mii's and Palutena regain all of their specials is a battle I feel can be won. Not to mention allowing four characters to have all their specials is a much easier pill for a lot of players to swallow than to have their favorite DLC characters be at a massive disadvantage, especially when 3/4 of those characters can choose their specials without turning on "Custom Fighters". As for Mii sizes, I feel if Mii's are allowed more than one size, it should be no more than two sizes. Otherwise, that'll just make learning matchup combos an absolute *****.

Last point I want to make is how much of a problem custom moves were to international players. If customs stayed allowed for most characters, that basically means if someone's home country does not allow custom moves for their competitive scenes, they were at a stupidly horrible disadvantage if they want to travel. It also makes their metas less relevant to us as players. Once customs died, I started paying way more attention to the competitive scenes from other countries because we shared the same meta again. Where as before that, I paid more attention to locals from this country because their meta was more relevant to me as a player. Japan's best players are now more willing to travel here and that's partially because customs got taken out back and shot.

Additional Context: I have zero intention of ever picking Palutena and would consider picking up Mii Gunner if tiny Mii's were allowed with all their specials. Default Mii Gunner is just too slow and too reliant on defense.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Make tourney units have all customs. You got off your ass for a tourney. You can as well for unlocking content.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I think, at the very least, even with problem moves like Timber Counter, 2222 and 3333 sets should be allowed. Moves that get overly effective will be balanced out by other moves that aren't as effective as the originals.

 

[Raijinken]

I think, at the very least, even with problem moves like Timber Counter, 2222 and 3333 sets should be allowed. Moves that get overly effective will be balanced out by other moves that aren't as effective as the originals.

For most characters, running 2222 or 3333 is hurting yourself more than it helps. While I agree it's better than restriction to 1111, it just means I'm going to have to play someone with a good 2222 or 3333 kit on principle. And of my vast pool of enjoyed characters, that pretty heavily limits me to Brawler, Kirby, Ike, and I could probably get away with Link or DK.

 

[Masonomace]

Sup. First time posting here.

In the past, my local area used to host custom-allowed tournaments which I enjoyed because it was around the time I was actually starting to attend tournaments. I was very fortunate that I got to play these custom-allowed tournaments while they lasted, but a couple of months ago or so the locals no longer allowed them due to the wide-spread news that none of the major regionals or nationals would allow them. It was expected yet I still felt a bit empty, since not as many players came out as much to attend these tournaments.

But for that brief amount of time getting to play as my primary character in Singles & Doubles, it was a blast. Shulk's custom specials provide a lot of freedom & variety that I wish I could say about the majority of the cast's custom specials. I got to see a plethora of characters & their custom specials in action to the point I was having fun learning new things while fighting against them. And I felt content with the last tournament I attended out in Kansas a few weeks back allowing customs. Very joyful & made me remember just how exciting custom Shulk can be.

So until custom specials become more accessible if they do, cherish your scene advocating custom-allowed tournaments.

 

[19_]

Man this thread is making me nostalgic. I still think about the untapped potential of customs every once and a while and all this talk about such potential makes me giddy.
It would be quite funny if Sakurai saves customs with this direct.

I'm waiting for Sakurai to give DLC characters customs, one way or another, just so we can shoot that irrelevant point down (like with the customs and balance patches).

I'm waiting for Sakurai to let me buy customs with all these smash coins I don't use...

Like if this happens, and as long as buying customs don't work like trophies then I'd lose it. (also add custom move for glory as the cherry on top)

I kinda doubt it will happen but THIS GUY is in smash now so...

btw Masonomace the way your sig sums up your post is just godlike

 

[Epok]

I think a lot of it is that more people really need to step up and make avanues for cusoms to work in their scene. I feel like if we keep waiting for other TOs to just let it happen, we're going to miss our chance. People with intrest in customs need to start organizing events and if you know people with access to a 3ds, start spreading customs around. Pitch in on a action reply. That's 15 per person. And if you're spending money on tournaments weekly or monthly, it will be worth the investment. We can't just sit by and wait for others to make it happen for us.

 

[Cahalan]

The Current Poll will close later today to allow for a new one to be asked if possible.

Looking back on the Customs debate, maybe we should look at using customs in a different way.

Idea 1: Offense, Defense, and Speed

Spoiler

Instead of just debating "Fair" custom move-sets, maybe we should also make custom sets based on whether it makes the character:

1) Favor/Work for "Speedy" play-styles
2) Favor/Work for Offensive/Aggressive play-styles
3) Favor/Work for Defense play-styles

Example:

Spoiler

Let's say you play Mario, his default 1111 set up. You like it... but you want more offensive power without switching to Doc. (even though the Doctor Tornado will feel at home to some older players of the series).

So you begin to experiment with some customs once you unlocked all the ones for our plumber here...
First the Neutral Special:
You have to decide between a fast fire ball and a slower moving, but stronger fire ball.

The fast fire ball, while dealing less damage, is... obviously faster. You can use this ala the Spacies Laser: you can hit confirm, use it more as a "normal projectile" ala megaman's buster, apply pressure while remaining mobile, etc.

The large fire ball, while slower, deals more damage AND does so over a small period of time while active. This can be a combo extender, a way to trap and bait your opponent, and a stronger hit confirm into possible kill moves.

Let's say that you don't mind a slower fire ball and would want to work on trapping and combo-ing your opponent, so you choose the Large Fire Ball, aka the Fire Orb (Neutral B #3).

Next, the Side Special
Your choices are between a cape that looses it's projectile reflection and one the possibly exchanges that quality for a strong wind box.

The shocking cape has some nice potential as a kill move and can even follow up after that fire orb you choose earlier.

The gust cape seems to be more of a defensive option as why would you want to blow away your opponent in the middle of a combo... though you also notice that it may have more use off stage for gimping.

You choose the Shocking Cape (Side Special #2) for a good kill move at high percents and to compliment the fire orb.

Now, the Up Special.
You choose between a better recovery, but none of the power and an uppercut that act's like the Doc's.

The Super Jump is, well... a "better" jump. What it lacks in damage makes up for it in recovery.

The Explosive Punch is quite the opposite, sacrificing vertical recovery for a strong initial and final hit (and only does damage at the start/end).

You decide that for a nice balance between power and recovery, you stick to the default Up special (the Super Jump Punch, Up Special #1).

Finally the Down Special.
You can choose between a fludd that actually does damage for once or one that at full charge, can literally blow away the competition.

The Scalding FLUDD sacrifices range for actually damage. Knowing that you usually have the thing charging and save it for the right moment, you notice that while charging it may not increase damage, it instead increases range!

The High Pressure FLUDD is more of a keep-away tool. While it does push your opponents away MUCH farther than usual (and increases the longer you charge it), it actually does no damage whatsoever. Though much like the gust cape, this could be useful for gimping.

You decide that the Scalding FLUDD (Down Special #2) best fits the rest of your specials and thus you end up with a 3212 move-set as your "more offensive" Mario.

Once you have this moveset as your "Offensive" Variant, you decide on a set that is more Defensive.

After looking over what you noticed for the other specials and their custom options, you decide that a: Fast Fireball (2), Normal Cape (1), Explosive Punch (3), and a High Pressure FLUDD (3) fit a "Defensive" Mario the best. While this 2133 move set restricts you vertical recovery, you can effectively keep your opponent away with that High Pressure FLUDD while still being able to reflect projectiles and still apply pressure with the Fast Fireballs from a decent distance.
So that's a 2133 Mario is fit for a "Defensive" play style.

Now you think of a Mario that revolves around speed and movement, while keeping some form of offense/defense intact.

You decide that for a Mario revolving around movement, you'd want to be able to keep the power-house characters away. So after some thought, a Mario with: his normal fireball (1), the Gust Cape (3), the Super Jump (2), and normal FLUDD (1) serve you best. While the High Pressure FLUDD would be nice, the Gust Cape has a consistent wind box and is quicker to use, and while the fast fire ball would fit as well, you want to keep some form of offense as well. As for keeping the default FLUDD, it has the benefit of aiming over it's pressurized variant and the Super Jump allows you to recover much better and helps when trying gimp off stage with the F-air/Gust Cape.

So you come to the Conclusion that a "Speedier" Mario that focuses on movement and some spacing best fits a 1321 moveset.

So to recap/skip the wall of text:
3212 is my choice for a Offensive Mario,
2133 is my choice for a Defensive Mario, and
1321 is my choice for a "Faster" Mario.

IMO when I think offense, I think of Combos and Kill moves at the cost of some recovery and speed. When I think defense, I think of Countering/Reflecting and a side of Hard Punishes. And when I think "Speed", I think of better recovery and Keep-away/Off stage gimps to some degree while maintaining some of my initial offensive and defensive traits.

Now this may sound good on paper, but some problems can arise:

1) The Mii Fighters
One way to mitigate the problem is to FIRST: find the Sword-fighter/Brawler/Gunner's best overall move-set as 1111 is not usually their most effective move-set (1122 is generally a good set for most Mii Brawler users). Then what about their weight/height? Well, going for the middle of both traits (mid-weight, mid-height) seems to offer the most fair and balanced traits for them, though tell me why not if you want: I'm all ears.

2) Palutena
Palutena also has all of her customs unlocked as they're also very different moves from one another. But in For-glory she is restricted to 1111, even when playing with customs off locally. So that leads me to believe that Palutena's default is 1111, but feel free to prove me wrong.

3) DLC fighters
As it stands right now, all of the DLC fighters have no customs at all. While it may seem that everyone else has the advantage, that only means that the people who main the DLC characters only have worry about working with one, consistent move set while everyone else has to potentially learn to work with 2 or more at least. Maybe Sakurai and his team will give them customs at the end of DLC, but who knows.

4) How many custom sets?
In my mind, having one set for exemplifying speed, one for offense, and one for defense (TL;DR 3 custom move-sets, 4 sets including their default/best set in the case of the Mii's) seems the most optimal for time sake given how long it may take to get customs in general (unless we agree to use cheating devices for the sake of getting customs on several 3DS' and use them to give to the Wii U set-ups at a venue).

Idea 2: Omega Mode

Spoiler

The premise of this Idea was inspired by my reply to Charey . This idea would instead to think of custom specials in the way of selecting different versions of fighters in Ultra Street Fighter 4, ala Omega Mode. This would allow characters to have another version of their move-set while either maintaining what the original "feel" of the character or to further make themselves unique.

One thing to note is that Mii fighters have no customs per say, but rather multiple moves to choose from (all available from the beginning) as pointed out in the game files, as it's the special quality given to them when "customs" are/aren't activated on the CSS/rules menu. Palutena on the other hand has customs that are all unlocked from the start.

Coments, Questions, Concerns?

 

[Cahalan]

-snip- Moved to first post in the spoiler within the first spoiler.

Reserved space for now.

 

[Charey]

One problem with that is for some characters which custom works for a play style might change depending on the match-up.

For example the defensive neutral special for Charizard against Villager or Gunner is Fireball Canon as that can beat their projectile walls so you don't have to find a way in if they dedicate to the camp. But against a Falcon or Sonic the defensive neutral special is Flamethrower which lets you force them off you and space them away from where they are most dangerous, Fireball canon doesn't work against to zone because it doesn't have enough hitstun to keep people out and you are forced into 3 shots letting fast character punish it easily.

Of course this sort of counter-picking specials didn't catch on, most players just picked one set and stuck with it. This was in a large part due to the fact that a lot of the characters have a best set that choosing any other combination never makes any sense, what Pikachu would take anything other then Heavy Skull Bash? This made customs never really stand out from vanilla in terms of player thought process it just had random characters in the roster have better moves.

This isn't a problem we can fix, sticking with one set is the best option in most cases and unless customs got a major overhaul it's doubtful that it would ever change, the customs that are better are better on a fundamental level of move design and can't be changed by tweaking numbers.

 

[Cahalan]

One problem with that is for some characters which custom works for a play style might change depending on the match-up.

For example the defensive neutral special for Charizard against Villager or Gunner is Fireball Canon as that can beat their projectile walls so you don't have to find a way in if they dedicate to the camp. But against a Falcon or Sonic the defensive neutral special is Flamethrower which lets you force them off you and space them away from where they are most dangerous, Fireball canon doesn't work against to zone because it doesn't have enough hitstun to keep people out and you are forced into 3 shots letting fast character punish it easily.

Of course this sort of counter-picking specials didn't catch on, most players just picked one set and stuck with it. This was in a large part due to the fact that a lot of the characters have a best set that choosing any other combination never makes any sense, what Pikachu would take anything other then Heavy Skull Bash? This made customs never really stand out from vanilla in terms of player thought process it just had random characters in the roster have better moves.

This isn't a problem we can fix, sticking with one set is the best option in most cases and unless customs got a major overhaul it's doubtful that it would ever change, the customs that are better are better on a fundamental level of move design and can't be changed by tweaking numbers.

So are you suggesting that instead of picking custom move-sets based around Offense/Defense/Speed, we choose their "Omega" mode (referencing Ultra Street Fighter 4's Omega Mode) custom move-set? I can roll with that too, since there could be that one custom that out does the rest like Ganondorf's sword custom.

If we go the "Omega Mode" route, then potentially we could make them based around improving recovery/options or to reference an older play style (Toon Links Fire Arrows custom for example can attract Project M players for example) or to just "improve" one or two specials that are lacking based on the characters needs/weaknesses. In the past I used to think this but previously dismissed it due to only limiting to 1 custom move-set per character, but looking at it now: maybe this is worth a shoot.

So for Mario, his "Omega" custom move-set could be:
2113 (fast fireball, cape, super jump punch, high pressure FLUDD) for example.

Or in the case of Charizard that you brought up:
3311 (Fireball Canon, Dragon Rush, Fly, Rock Smash) can be his "Omega Mode" and since Fireball Canon can get punished by faster characters, dragon rush can be used to "go after" those faster characters and gain a better horizontal recovery that doesn't remind people of pichu's self-damaging mechanic.

 

[MajorMajora]

You know, no matter how healthy customs would be for the meta, there are a number of obstacles we need to pass before we need to pass before anything can get done. the biggest one however, is that logic has no power. There are 3 groups with power: The tournaments hosters, the high level players, and the general, blind population. While there are a lot of things that sway all of them, high level players pretty much have the final say. people just echo what they say about "jank" and perpetuate the lazy ban-culture that's keeping Smash back. Until we can get some authority that not only listens to logic but has an authority that is above high level players, no customs will be coming back. This is pretty much a fact, and if anyone cares about customs coming back, I think we need to tackle this problem.

I have no idea how to tackle it, but honestly we have no choice but to. I really think it'd be good if we focused our efforts on this topic, maybe brainstorm some ideas.

 

[Epok]

You know, no matter how healthy customs would be for the meta, there are a number of obstacles we need to pass before we need to pass before anything can get done. the biggest one however, is that logic has no power. There are 3 groups with power: The tournaments hosters, the high level players, and the general, blind population. While there are a lot of things that sway all of them, high level players pretty much have the final say. people just echo what they say about "jank" and perpetuate the lazy ban-culture that's keeping Smash back. Until we can get some authority that not only listens to logic but has an authority that is above high level players, no customs will be coming back. This is pretty much a fact, and if anyone cares about customs coming back, I think we need to tackle this problem.

I have no idea how to tackle it, but honestly we have no choice but to. I really think it'd be good if we focused our efforts on this topic, maybe brainstorm some ideas.

I agree with your sentiments on the power struggle. A lot of it is keeping at the forefront. Don't let people ignore the want of a customs meta. We also need to continue to debunk jank customs. Dare I say almost to the point where we make the naysayers feel foolish for saying it was jank at all. I think we're at a point where we can't be subtle.

 

[MajorMajora]

I agree with your sentiments on the power struggle. A lot of it is keeping at the forefront. Don't let people ignore the want of a customs meta. We also need to continue to debunk jank customs. Dare I say almost to the point where we make the naysayers feel foolish for saying it was jank at all. I think we're at a point where we can't be subtle.

Well, there's want for it, but only among the educated part of the community. Almost everyone I know who doesn't know much about them has a shared resentment for them for no reason they can seem to articulate.

After thinking about it for a short amount of time, I've come up with a few ways that would actually work. One, which is possible and realistic but also unlikely, is for Nintendo to sponsor some sort of "Smash league" which has rules that respect current competitive smash (no items, no terrible stages, etc.). And then they have customs on. I could see it happening, but not only is it probably not going to it's out of our control.

The other way is to get a major streaming channel (VG bootcamp, for example) to set up a weekly/semiweekly tourney with customs on. Very difficult, but very realistic and within our abilities as a community.

We need some tourney that uses them that people can respect and will go to. It's easier to convince 1 major player (a powerful TO) than every pro player with influence. I think the second idea I had is the angle to go with. I have some ideas, but I want to mull them over more before posting them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think convincing top players to like Customs is not viable.
Convince them not to talk down on them, to give insight and even tips on how to beat the annoying ones, all of those sound possible.
Making them apologize for saying they hate them out of a kneejerk reaction would be ideal but doesn't sound plausible either.

Getting more streams to feature them would also be great.

 

[Steelballray]

So the best player in my region who mains Rosalina started developing a Sheik pocket but things escalated rather quickly and he started mastering all of them void combos and combining them with option selects (He is Kirbykid approved and he pioneered some OSs himself due to his BlazBlue background) and its tons more abusive than anything I experienced against customs.

I don't know man. I ain't ever gonna let them customs be ran at my tournament because discussing them in this thread installed an everlasting deep hatred for it in my heart but I am going to say, for honesty's sake, that customs aren't really bad by any measure. I mean, ignoring the unlocking issue I dont think there is a concrete objective argument against it. its just that.. screw customs. just screw them. You dig?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's a shame that the equipment bonus effects alter your fighter's stats as well. That makes it quite tough to legally rebalance your fighter's stats back to 0, especially if the equipment's bonus effect has a very high penalty on the positive value; this is especially true for the Critical Hitter, which subtracts 58 points from the positive value.

 

[T0MMY]

1) The Mii Fighters
One way to mitigate the problem is to FIRST: find the Sword-fighter/Brawler/Gunner's best overall move-set as 1111 is not usually their most effective move-set (1122 is generally a good set for most Mii Brawler users). Then what about their weight/height? Well, going for the middle of both traits (mid-weight, mid-height) seems to offer the most fair and balanced traits for them, though tell me why not if you want: I'm all ears.

Cooments, Questions, Concerns?

Leave the Mii fighters out of this discussion. They are "Original Fighters" and the game never classifies them as "Custom Fighters", additionally the Custom Fighter button doesn't effect their chosen moveset.

As far as their "traits" go, I would suggest just letting the Mii players upload their preferred Mii or use a provided Guest Mii. Anything outside of that is going to be logistically troublesome for the TO and an issue of compromise for the players. If there is any issue with the Mii just ban them outright, but if a vast majority of players like them or don't care then just leave them alone.