What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Cahalan]

Leave the Mii fighters out of this discussion. They are "Original Fighters" and the game never classifies them as "Custom Fighters", additionally the Custom Fighter button doesn't effect their chosen moveset.

As far as their "traits" go, I would suggest just letting the Mii players upload their preferred Mii or use a provided Guest Mii. Anything outside of that is going to be logistically troublesome for the TO and an issue of compromise for the players. If there is any issue with the Mii just ban them outright, but if a vast majority of players like them or don't care then just leave them alone.

The whole "system Mii" things was what I was referring too... though I should've made it more overt. At first I made this thread with the idea of making custom sets for chracters that revolve around the themes of Offense, Defense, and Speed. But after some thought, another idea is to do a "Omega Mode" set-up ala Ultra Street Fighter 4 (develop a characters "Omega" Moveset to improve some qualities of the character and/or change how they play). I addressed the mii's knowing that while 1111 may be the "default" to some, it's not a Mii fighters most effect move set as in relation to the current meta of Smash 4. And in either idea, the Miis would have to eventually be talked about like it or not.

In the case of the "Omega Mode" Idea/concept the addressing of the mii would ideally progress like this:
1) For each mii fighter, find the best/most effective moveset for a system Mii template (mid weight and mid height). You can use the opinions of top Mii mains to influence your decision.

2) After finding each Mii fighter's most effect moveset, use that to branch into a "Omega Mode" moveset. This can make up for the short comings of the base moveset or change it up completely.

 

[T0MMY]

Smash isn't Street Fighter, and there's no need to emulate it.
The concepts of "default" and "most effective" are just that: Concepts.

The proper competitive practice is to allow competitors to exploit the game to its fullest potential and if anything is found to be competitively lacking then it can be changed if warranted and desired. One can make "sets" and talk about Mii fighters regarding that, but that is outside game function. It can be done, but us Mii mains kindly ask not to be lumped in with an alien concept of "customs" because that leads to illogical and draconian bans on our characters and then we sit there at a tournament with nothing to do because people create conceptual constructs that have real-world affects on us: We the players essentially become banned from playing a game with our friends.

Talk about custom sets all you want, but please refer to the Mii as "Original Fighters" (as defined by the game) and their move set as Special Moves (not customs). Maybe we can get past this persecution at some point.

Carry on.

 

[PHP]

So is unlocking customs the only problem? Because that's all I see.

 

[MajorMajora]

So the best player in my region who mains Rosalina started developing a Sheik pocket but things escalated rather quickly and he started mastering all of them void combos and combining them with option selects (He is Kirbykid approved and he pioneered some OSs himself due to his BlazBlue background) and its tons more abusive than anything I experienced against customs.

I don't know man. I ain't ever gonna let them customs be ran at my tournament because discussing them in this thread installed an everlasting deep hatred for it in my heart but I am going to say, for honesty's sake, that customs aren't really bad by any measure. I mean, ignoring the unlocking issue I dont think there is a concrete objective argument against it. its just that.. screw customs. just screw them. You dig?

I have nothing against your mother and from what I've seen of her she's a wonderful person, but I really want her to go to hell.

I think India is a fine country and there's nothing wrong with it, but if they got air striked it wouldn't be too bad. I mean, **** them, amiright?

Science has shown there is nothing inherently inferior about African Americans, but honestly I'd rather they just be enslaved again. You dig?

Now, in order to elaborate so I can avoid Poe's Law, I used these extreme yet analogous examples of arguments using your logic in an attempt to show you why they don't make much sense. I don't actually believe any of them

 

[Cahalan]

Smash isn't Street Fighter, and there's no need to emulate it.
The concepts of "default" and "most effective" are just that: Concepts.

The proper competitive practice is to allow competitors to exploit the game to its fullest potential and if anything is found to be competitively lacking then it can be changed if warranted and desired. One can make "sets" and talk about Mii fighters regarding that, but that is outside game function. It can be done, but us Mii mains kindly ask not to be lumped in with an alien concept of "customs" because that leads to illogical and draconian bans on our characters and then we sit there at a tournament with nothing to do because people create conceptual constructs that have real-world affects on us: We the players essentially become banned from playing a game with our friends.

Talk about custom sets all you want, but please refer to the Mii as "Original Fighters" (as defined by the game) and their move set as Special Moves (not customs). Maybe we can get past this persecution at some point.

Carry on.

Oh: it'll be a bad habbit to break in my case in refernce to the miis.


As for emulating Street Fighter... okay I'll give you that one, but so far it's the only fighting game along side Mortal Kombat X that handles variations/customs/whatever pretty well in the competitive scene. Players from both games can choose whatever variation they prefer, each with their own pros and cons. If we ever allow customs or "variations" as I'll try to put it from now on: we can achieve some form of "Omega Mode" for each of the fighters.

But when I start to talk about the Mii's, 1111 just isn't a effective "default" for them.

 

[T0MMY]

The issue many competitive theorists would take with referring to a "1111" set as "default" is that it invokes the principle of Software Authority. That we compete with the game as designed, at it's "default". So if we say the Mii have a "default" of 1111 then it may be interpreted that we must rule in favor of restricting the Mii because we start with the software at its default. This is a terrible position to take for those who hold to competitive values and Mii players in general because at this point we would have to defend a position that allows the Mii to be played as they were intended with some kind of reasoning... this of course, is backwards as those who are imposing an out-of-game restriction/ban have the burden of proof.

Mii are simply "Original Fighters" and have "Special Moves" that may be chosen when created.
Anything more than that is inviting some deep discussion that has yet to be resolved in the competitive community.

And one can emulate Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat... or any other game for that matter. Any course can be taken as a possibility but it will normally come down to a question of value. Do the competitors value this course that is proposed? For me, I compete in a competitive setting, so I usually refer to competitive theory.

 

[Cahalan]

The issue many competitive theorists would take with referring to a "1111" set as "default" is that it invokes the principle of Software Authority. That we compete with the game as designed, at it's "default". So if we say the Mii have a "default" of 1111 then it may be interpreted that we must rule in favor of restricting the Mii because we start with the software at its default. This is a terrible position to take for those who hold to competitive values and Mii players in general because at this point we would have to defend a position that allows the Mii to be played as they were intended with some kind of reasoning... this of course, is backwards as those who are imposing an out-of-game restriction/ban have the burden of proof.

Mii are simply "Original Fighters" and have "Special Moves" that may be chosen when created.
Anything more than that is inviting some deep discussion that has yet to be resolved in the competitive community.

And one can emulate Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat... or any other game for that matter. Any course can be taken as a possibility but it will normally come down to a question of value. Do the competitors value this course that is proposed? For me, I compete in a competitive setting, so I usually refer to competitive theory.

Let me be clear on this other "Omega Mode" idea I have: it's intentions are to possibly allow all non-dlc fighters use their "custom"/choose-able specials with some restrictions. The main restriction being that only one moveset with "custom"/choose-able specials per character may be used: so along with a characters standard set of moves, you can also choose the one alternate set provided. As per the Mii's either it's their 2 best set of moves that can work together or it's their best set of moves and the venues "default set" for said mii type. It's in between "Letting Miis use all moves" and "Letting all characters use their "alternate" moves if they aren't DLC characters (which have none for some reason)".

I refer to 1111 as default for the mii's because that's what most non-mii allowing tourneys call the Mii's "default setting" even though it's arbitrary. I use it to make a point.

 

[Raijinken]

It's pretty hard, from experience, to get people to even shut up and be neutral about things they vocally dislike. Much less to apologize for saying things they believe fully to be true. At this point, I've simply given up on the scene at large and am just making sure my own group keeps a favorable outlook.

 

[Luggy]

I think a lot of people and Sakurai's team themselves agree on that : custom moves are bad.

Looking at it on paper, custom moves seem great. They bring variety to a game that some could say has been stale in terms of moveset. Sure, it's a lot of work, but it's excellent for the gameplay, both for casuals and competitive players.

But the problem is the execution. For one, aside from Palutena's, they all look crappy as volleyballs, as well as looking pretty lazy, but y'know, time flies, so they had to make them quick. And of course, by making them quickly, they are poorly balanced, even with today's balance patches. Custom moves are either better than the basic version, or just down right embarrassing. If a player finds out that he could just pick the basic set to win, or one particular custom move, then he'll never use another set, and everyone is gonna follow. So it's either the basic set, or just one set with the good move that is better than the basic one. Yeah.

Add the fact that DLC characters don't have any customs, because they don't want to waste their time on something nobody really uses much, and you have the perfect "Wasted Feature" that can't be used except with friends.

I like the ideas, and congrats in advance if you manage to make them official, but it's gonna be hard to implement. With everyone's opinion on those moves, you're in for a treat.

Feel free to disagree, that's why opinions exists.

 

[Cahalan]

I think a lot of people and Sakurai's team themselves agree on that : custom moves are bad.

Looking at it on paper, custom moves seem great. They bring variety to a game that some could say has been stale in terms of moveset. Sure, it's a lot of work, but it's excellent for the gameplay, both for casuals and competitive players.

But the problem is the execution. For one, aside from Palutena's, they all look crappy as volleyballs, as well as looking pretty lazy, but y'know, time flies, so they had to make them quick. And of course, by making them quickly, they are poorly balanced, even with today's balance patches. Custom moves are either better than the basic version, or just down right embarrassing. If a player finds out that he could just pick the basic set to win, or one particular custom move, then he'll never use another set, and everyone is gonna follow. So it's either the basic set, or just one set with the good move that is better than the basic one. Yeah.

Add the fact that DLC characters don't have any customs, because they don't want to waste their time on something nobody really uses much, and you have the perfect "Wasted Feature" that can't be used except with friends.

I like the ideas, and congrats in advance if you manage to make them official, but it's gonna be hard to implement. With everyone's opinion on those moves, you're in for a treat.

Feel free to disagree, that's why opinions exists.

I admit that's the only flaw with custom specials at the moment: not present on any of the DLC. And if it never happens for them after February, this may as well be a lost cause. But that doesn't necessarily stop the Mii's from,at the very least, eventually using their most optimal set. Though knowing Sakurai, we don't know exactly what he's planning aside from what's confirmed so far.

 

[Masonomace]

So a local weekly around my area has Mii Fighters legal with any size set & move-set (Yes!). However, I still want custom specials to be a thing by suggesting that only one custom set be allowed for that character played. It's a very restricting step to try when EVO pre-sets had 10 sets to choose from, but for a reduction of time & commitment, I wanted the TOs to consider one custom set for that character you play in bracket & only one set. Same goes for Doubles if Doubles gets requested enough at my local. And I know it's just a local, but a small step might take bigger leaps further down the road so.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So is unlocking customs the only problem? Because that's all I see.

Yeah there are as many as 376 custom special moves to unlock in Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U, and getting them all can be very time-consuming. That alone is often the reason for why customizations are hardly ever seen in the competitive scene.

Also, copied customizations can't be re-copied at all, so your customizations would have to come from Smash 3DS if you want to use them in more than one copy of Smash Wii U.

 

[PHP]

Yeah there are as many as 376 custom special moves to unlock in Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U, and getting them all can be very time-consuming. That alone is often the reason for why customizations are hardly ever seen in the competitive scene.

Also, copied customizations can't be re-copied at all, so your customizations would have to come from Smash 3DS if you want to use them in more than one copy of Smash Wii U.

It's been a year already, you'd think this would have been done by now

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's been a year already, you'd think this would have been done by now

If only that were true, but not everyone got the game last year.

 

[19_]

So a local weekly around my area has Mii Fighters legal with any size set & move-set (Yes!). However, I still want custom specials to be a thing by suggesting that only one custom set be allowed for that character played. It's a very restricting step to try when EVO pre-sets had 10 sets to choose from, but for a reduction of time & commitment, I wanted the TOs to consider one custom set for that character you play in bracket & only one set. Same goes for Doubles if Doubles gets requested enough at my local. And I know it's just a local, but a small step might take bigger leaps further down the road so.

My advice is to make it a side event. Maybe even disregard money and make first prize be a gift card or something. Add not legal stages to make it seem more "casual".
I'm just throwing ideas around but the key is to gentle about it and make it fun.

It's been a year already, you'd think this would have been done by now

The fact that customs are unlocked via rng makes it more tedious than it can be worth for some people. Relying on luck to unlock these things is not manageable for TOs no matter what way you spin it.

Yea there are turbo controller exploits but I have heard cases of peoples wiiUs burning out because of it (even if it is a rumor TO's and many players won't risk their consoles).

Powersaves/injection are the best way to handle unlocks but only the 3ds can do this now. Thankfully this will change as I hear the wiiU homebrew may be possibe soon (I would like a link to conform this as I have heard things).

Even if that happens Nintendo will not like the idea of their consoles being hacked a wide level so expect resistance of some kind. The future of customs are in the hand Sakurai unfortunately.

 

[Cahalan]

I feel now that the only way for customs to be seriously considered on a grand scale is if the DLC cast gets them as well. Even though many ideas exist like the ones I made previously, if the DLC cast is at a conceivable "disadvantage" to the competitive scene by not getting alternate specials by the end of February, then the idea for all characters to have some use of their custom specials is at a loss, "janky" or not.

However this still should not disqualify the Miis from competition, as even-though they are the embodiment of "customization", at least giving them the opportunity to use what is conceived to be their "most optimum" set of specials by those who play them the most while using the system's guest mii's as the template would allow the spirit of customs to live on.

So the only way EVO can have this 2015 ruleset in the future is if the DLC characters get their custom specials, and if not, allow the Miis to have their optimum set of specials in the non-customs rule-set.

Edit: you know what, we should have a poll after the final piece of DLC content is released (concerning characters) and have experience with the last batch of "newcomers" asking if the DLC cast is truly at disadvantage in a customs/alternate specials meta.

 

[Steelballray]

I have nothing against your mother and from what I've seen of her she's a wonderful person, but I really want her to go to hell.

I think India is a fine country and there's nothing wrong with it, but if they got air striked it wouldn't be too bad. I mean, **** them, amiright?

Science has shown there is nothing inherently inferior about African Americans, but honestly I'd rather they just be enslaved again. You dig?

Now, in order to elaborate so I can avoid Poe's Law, I used these extreme yet analogous examples of arguments using your logic in an attempt to show you why they don't make much sense. I don't actually believe any of them

I wasn't trying to make any argument. I was just saying that since I don't prefer them, I won't run them.

..Maybe unless they became the norm everywhere in the world I will run them since I don't want to outcast my players from the rest of the planet.

Also, saying that most complaints against customs are invalid isn't saying that they're better than no customs.

 

[Raijinken]

I feel now that the only way for customs to be seriously considered on a grand scale is if the DLC cast gets them as well. Even though many ideas exist like the ones I made previously, if the DLC cast is at a conceivable "disadvantage" to the competitive scene by not getting alternate specials by the end of February, then the idea for all characters to have some use of their custom specials is at a loss, "janky" or not.

However this still should not disqualify the Miis from competition, as even-though they are the embodiment of "customization", at least giving them the opportunity to use what is conceived to be their "most optimum" set of specials by those who play them the most while using the system's guest mii's as the template would allow the spirit of customs to live on.

So the only way EVO can have this 2015 ruleset in the future is if the DLC characters get their custom specials, and if not, allow the Miis to have their optimum set of specials in the non-customs rule-set.

Edit: you know what, we should have a poll after the final piece of DLC content is released (concerning characters) and have experience with the last batch of "newcomers" asking if the DLC cast is truly at disadvantage in a customs/alternate specials meta.

This is why I word my rulesets "All characters may use any special moves available." Nobody cares that Ryu has roughly double the moveset size of anyone else, nobody should care that the other DLC characters are short four.

 

[PHP]

I'm pretty sure that custom moves were just a way to have benefits for using every single character.

Nevertheless miis/ Palutena should be enough to encourage customs since they're "the custom characters". I honestly don't know why miis are banned as a whole (Probably because it's hard to practice against them online). But that still shouldn't ban medium sized miis as a whole. I'm still not sure why custom Palu is banned as the "tedious to unlock customs" argument doesn't even apply to her

 

[MajorMajora]

I'm pretty sure that custom moves were just a way to have benefits for using every single character.

Nevertheless miis/ Palutena should be enough to encourage customs since they're "the custom characters". I honestly don't know why miis are banned as a whole (Probably because it's hard to practice against them online). But that still shouldn't ban medium sized miis as a whole. I'm still not sure why custom Palu is banned as the "tedious to unlock customs" argument doesn't even apply to her

Some people think it's unfair that she would get customs when no one else does.

I would reply with saying it's unfair that no one but sheik gets to be sheik.

 

[Cahalan]

Let's think of a hypothetical situation then:

Let's say that at Evo next year, customs are still around. However for logistics, only 1 alternate set of specials are available for use (it can be all alternate specials or a mix of alts and default) making a total of 2 sets of specials among the default cast (each character has their 1111 set and an alternate set). Mii's have their two most optimum move-sets to use based on the guest miis. And all DLC characters are allowed. But Sakurai has not given the DLC cast alternate specials.

Are the DLC characters at a disadvantage?

 

[David Viran]

Some people think it's unfair that she would get customs when no one else does.

I would reply with saying it's unfair that no one but sheik gets to be sheik.

Not saying that I agree or disagree with palutena getting customs but better moves is not the same thing as more moves so why compare it to sheik?

 

[Raijinken]

Let's think of a hypothetical situation then:

Let's say that at Evo next year, customs are still around. However for logistics, only 1 alternate set of specials are available for use (it can be all alternate specials or a mix of alts and default) making a total of 2 sets of specials among the default cast (each character has their 1111 set and an alternate set). Mii's have their two most optimum move-sets to use based on the guest miis. And all DLC characters are allowed. But Sakurai has not given the DLC cast alternate specials.

Are the DLC characters at a disadvantage?

A disadvantage? Yes. An unfair one? No. Zelda players are at a bigger disadvantage than DLC character players.

 

[Cahalan]

A disadvantage? Yes. An unfair one? No. Zelda players are at a bigger disadvantage than DLC character players.

Even under the Standard Custom Moves Project?

 

[MajorMajora]

Even under the Standard Custom Moves Project?

Look, the point is that complaining about how it gives certain characters advantages or disadvantages is a moot point since the game is not perfectly balanced to being with.

 

[Raijinken]

Look, the point is that complaining about how it gives certain characters advantages or disadvantages is a moot point since the game is not perfectly balanced to being with.

Precisely this. While it could be unfair that the DLC characters don't get custom moves, it's not strictly an unfair disadvantage any more than innate balance disparity is.

 

[Cahalan]

Precisely this. While it could be unfair that the DLC characters don't get custom moves, it's not strictly an unfair disadvantage any more than innate balance disparity is.

Then I have nothing more to say. I was asking to see what everyone's opinions was and I got my answer. If people are wanting customs for the DLC cast, wait till February and see what happens. As for me, I got some unlocking to do.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Then I have nothing more to say. I was asking to see what everyone's opinions was and I got my answer. If people are wanting customs for the DLC cast, wait till February and see what happens. As for me, I got some unlocking to do.

Let me add mine in the mix then.

To say "oh the game isn't balanced initially" isn't entirely incorrect. That'd be a valid argument if it didn't ignore the fact that the basic point that it still disadvantages a (now noticeable) section of the roster. If your innate balance is already flawed why are you widening the gap on a scale that affects a chunk of the roster and not the sum of its parts?

I'm all for creative arguments but if you're going to argue that the game isn't balanced anyways why would your point then ultimately boil down to "Well sucks for them, it wasn't balanced to begin with!" That's so unbelievably short-sighted. I will understand and accept literally any other argument but if the point of making Customs legal is to not exclude players who use Customs....why is this argument inherently supporting the exclusion of those who play DLC characters because all of them get universally worse whether it is on a level that drastically affects their viability or not?

Yes, as a Cloud player I actually have a reason to care about this.

 

[san.]

I'm all for creative arguments but if you're going to argue that the game isn't balanced anyways why would your point then ultimately boil down to "Well sucks for them, it wasn't balanced to begin with!" That's so unbelievably short-sighted. I will understand and accept literally any other argument but if the point of making Customs legal is to not exclude players who use Customs....why is this argument inherently supporting the exclusion of those who play DLC characters because all of them get universally worse whether it is on a level that drastically affects their viability or not?

Yes, as a Cloud player I actually have a reason to care about this.

How is it exclusion when you have all your tools at your disposal?

 

[TTTTTsd]

How is it exclusion when you have all your tools at your disposal?

Speaking solely for Customs on the roster and not directly for Mii Fighters....(I firmly believe in Free Miis because their movesets can be changed without Customs On, although I am also directly okay with things such as compromises/optimal movesets, but I'm not discussing Miis here)

When certain other characters gain access to upgraded specials they have, in theory, a large multitude of options per specific matchup, whereas I am left with one set of special moves that I can not switch from. These upgrades can range from doing minor things like Fast Pill on Doc marginally improving his neutral game to giving characters like Mario ways to throw out disjoints that he can combo off of in the neutral (Scalding FLUDD) among other things. Sometimes they're downgrades, other times they are solely matchup specific moveset choices (more on why those are problematic for myself as a Cloud player below)

When this is commonplace for a lot of characters on the roster except for the one I happen to play regularly in tournament, I feel as if my character is "left out", if you will.

Regardless of how good or situational it is, this leaves a small chunk of the cast unable to play on the same theoretical footing that is given to the majority, IMO. Regardless of whether the character NEEDS them or not, the fact that they don't have them inherently poses a problem, especially if they're a volatile-esque designed character like Cloud or Mewtwo, the former of which will lose to every single windbox in the game that is added with Customs (of which there are a LOT) and the latter who will die to some of the added KO confirms that will kill him solely based on his weight (I firmly believe Customs Mario vs. Mewtwo is unsalvagable for Mewtwo as Mario has to get one simple Uair string to kill him with EJP as low as 50-60% with simple carrying off of easy conversions), without any moveset counterplay being available for said characters.

I find this to be problematic, as I play Cloud, a character who already struggles offstage even with my recovery stalls and mixups, and if the Customs meta was to become the default metagame my character would get noticeably worse via matchup specific moveset changes that I would have no real counterplay towards. You may feel free to disagree but as a Cloud player I'd feel inherently disadvantaged, personally.

 

[Luig]

I can see why you'd use customs.
I can see why you wouldn't.
Personally, I don't really care, it's really up to the TO's preference.
It is kinda stupid on Nintendo's part to not give the DLC characters Custom moves. It gives a lack of options in customs tourneys just because Nintendo was lazy (or doing other stuff).

Customs would be nice to see, as it's something new, however this can make problems as a few can completely change how the opponent is playing and this is just extra things you would have to worry about and practice for.

 

[san.]

Speaking solely for Customs on the roster and not directly for Mii Fighters....

Thanks for the explanation, I understand your concerns a little bit better now. To me, I was thinking that people weren't excluded from using the likes of Cloud or Mewtwo, etc., and I wasn't really concerned that other characters may or may not get better.

I'm not sure how unfair it is, since there are also quite a few characters who don't gain much from switching to any custom move, and most of the DLC characters' specials are already excellent.

 

[MajorMajora]

Let me add mine in the mix then.

To say "oh the game isn't balanced initially" isn't entirely incorrect. That'd be a valid argument if it didn't ignore the fact that the basic point that it still disadvantages a (now noticeable) section of the roster. If your innate balance is already flawed why are you widening the gap on a scale that affects a chunk of the roster and not the sum of its parts?

I'm all for creative arguments but if you're going to argue that the game isn't balanced anyways why would your point then ultimately boil down to "Well sucks for them, it wasn't balanced to begin with!" That's so unbelievably short-sighted. I will understand and accept literally any other argument but if the point of making Customs legal is to not exclude players who use Customs....why is this argument inherently supporting the exclusion of those who play DLC characters because all of them get universally worse whether it is on a level that drastically affects their viability or not?

Yes, as a Cloud player I actually have a reason to care about this.

Here's a question: Would you, in an environment with customs, feel it is worth removing them in order to make DLC characters stronger? Of course not. That's even more of a drastic move.

I guess the point here is that it is not our job to balance the game, but to make it the best competitive experience possible. The main reason we want customs is to make the game more dynamic, not so that it is better balanced.

And even if we did want it balanced, it's not like Lucas, Roy, and Mewtwo are huge competitors. And Honestly I feel for Cloud (I'm a Cloud main myself), but let's be real, Ryu will still be viable with customs off.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Thanks for the explanation, I understand your concerns a little bit better now. To me, I was thinking that people weren't excluded from using the likes of Cloud or Mewtwo, etc., and I wasn't really concerned that other characters may or may not get better.

I'm not sure how unfair it is, since there are also quite a few characters who don't gain much from switching to any custom move, and most of the DLC characters' specials are already excellent.

This is also true, I think it mostly just removes the setplay meta of counterpicking movesets, even if the DLC characters only got situational customs, those are usually effective when used properly which is why when they lack them, it removes a lot of the allure of playing Customs, which is access to diverse movesets along the cast.

MajorMajora while I might agree with Roy on that note, Lucas and Mewtwo just received noticeable buffs (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) that would arguably (IMO) be lampshaded or somewhat mitigated by Customs (given that Mario is an incredibly common tournament pick, easy kill confirms on Mewtwo who is already tall is really not fun for the Mewtwo player). I think at the rate the patches and DLC characters are coming along, I'm not sure if it'd be right to spring this on em. If we want the best competitive experience possible, the Mewtwo players who already have to deal with Mario in Bracket should also be considered, IMO. Yes, they're a minority although they may grow as I feel like Mewtwo's buffs are very significant this patch.

Ryu will always be viable because his core moveset is created SOLELY for competition IMO, but he's an outlier along with Bayonetta (I assume.) Every character deserves their fair shake and all this does is really make me wish DLC characters got Customs too because it'd be a lot less divisive and easier to talk about.

 

[Cahalan]

This is also true, I think it mostly just removes the setplay meta of counterpicking movesets, even if the DLC characters only got situational customs, those are usually effective when used properly which is why when they lack them, it removes a lot of the allure of playing Customs, which is access to diverse movesets along the cast.

MajorMajora while I might agree with Roy on that note, Lucas and Mewtwo just received noticeable buffs (ESPECIALLY Mewtwo) that would arguably (IMO) be lampshaded or somewhat mitigated by Customs (given that Mario is an incredibly common tournament pick, easy kill confirms on Mewtwo who is already tall is really not fun for the Mewtwo player). I think at the rate the patches and DLC characters are coming along, I'm not sure if it'd be right to spring this on em. If we want the best competitive experience possible, the Mewtwo players who already have to deal with Mario in Bracket should also be considered, IMO. Yes, they're a minority although they may grow as I feel like Mewtwo's buffs are very significant this patch.

Ryu will always be viable because his core moveset is created SOLELY for competition IMO, but he's an outlier along with Bayonetta (I assume.) Every character deserves their fair shake and all this does is really make me wish DLC characters got Customs too because it'd be a lot less divisive and easier to talk about.

On the note of matchups, there's currently 57 confirmed characters in the game (even though it said 58 in the final video presentation... #freewolf). With customs involved there's about 81 or so different combinations of sets of specials you can have per character. It's not necessarily learning more matchups, but more on how to counter certain problematic customs (I'm looking at you Killager >:[ ). But to be honest, even if the DLC cast can fare pretty well in the customs meta, they would be in a bit of pickle when they can't "counterpick" certain set that can be problematic for them. And it's not as easy as getting "gud", because some of these combinations can drastically change how a character plays and subsequently how to approach them.

Our only hope is that when the final batch of DLC drops, the DLC cast get's their own customs because if not, the future of customs is in some noticeable trouble.

 

[Raijinken]

On the note of matchups, there's currently 57 confirmed characters in the game (even though it said 58 in the final video presentation... #freewolf). With customs involved there's about 81 or so different combinations of sets of specials you can have per character. It's not necessarily learning more matchups, but more on how to counter certain problematic customs (I'm looking at you Killager >:[ ). But to be honest, even if the DLC cast can fare pretty well in the customs meta, they would be in a bit of pickle when they can't "counterpick" certain set that can be problematic for them. And it's not as easy as getting "gud", because some of these combinations can drastically change how a character plays and subsequently how to approach them.

Our only hope is that when the final batch of DLC drops, the DLC cast get's their own customs because if not, the future of customs is in some noticeable trouble.

55 pre-Cloud, and then Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta makes 58. Mii archetypes are counted as separate characters.

As for the counterplay option, that is an existing problem regardless of customs. Some matchups suck, and truth be told, most of them don't change in direction (only magnitude) from the implementation of customs. If your character can't handle a certain matchup, and you can't personally account for it with raw skill, or a slight specials/stage selection choice that your opponent is less accustomed to playing against, your only choice is to have a secondary, develop those skills/counterpick stage/special strategies, or keep losing. If the Mewtwo main in question struggles with Marios in tournament, he or she should find a secondary who is good against Mario, and then go back to Mewtwo for other scenarios.

You can't blame customs for a bad matchup being bad, unless it's against Palutena or Miis. Even then, I've yet to see evidence that customs push them to the point of needing pocket secondaries to handle.

 

[Cahalan]

55 pre-Cloud, and then Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta makes 58. Mii archetypes are counted as separate characters.

As for the counterplay option, that is an existing problem regardless of customs. Some matchups suck, and truth be told, most of them don't change in direction (only magnitude) from the implementation of customs. If your character can't handle a certain matchup, and you can't personally account for it with raw skill, or a slight specials/stage selection choice that your opponent is less accustomed to playing against, your only choice is to have a secondary, develop those skills/counterpick stage/special strategies, or keep losing. If the Mewtwo main in question struggles with Marios in tournament, he or she should find a secondary who is good against Mario, and then go back to Mewtwo for other scenarios.

You can't blame customs for a bad matchup being bad, unless it's against Palutena or Miis. Even then, I've yet to see evidence that customs push them to the point of needing pocket secondaries to handle.

True, I'll give you that one.

Oh and I could swear the total was 57, check the number of character sub-forums in Smash 4's character discussion...

 

[Raijinken]

True, I'll give you that one.

Oh and I could swear the total was 57, check the number of character sub-forums in Smash 4's character discussion...

Pit and Pitoo share a board. That threw me off when I saw it, too.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mario vs. Mewtwo is a matchup that gets incredibly worse in Customs. Mario gets incredibly free Uair juggle kill confirms in a matchup where he already solidly beat this character. Without them it's winnable but I'm pretty convinced Mario vs. Mewtwo with Customs on is a matchup where you will need to switch characters.

That's just one example I'm sure there's at least three or four more.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pit and Pitoo share a board. That threw me off when I saw it, too.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with customs, but what?

*checks*

Huh, so they do. I guess it makes sense, what with Pittoo being the cloniest clone who ever cloned, but that caught me completely off guard for some reason.