What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Terotrous]

Heck, did we drop Brawl or Melee when Project M came out? Or do we run the three individually? Why would we run both Brawl and Project M if they're the same core game?

Brawl was pretty much dead by the time Project M rose to prominence. Most tournies were running Melee / PM, then switched to Melee / 4 once 4 came out.

And like I said, the necessity of running 2 tournaments is already seen by many as an annoyance, let alone 3.

 

[GeneralLedge]

And like I said, the necessity of running 2 tournaments is already seen by many as an annoyance, let alone 3.

Oh, so hypothetically we're running multiple pools and distributing Smash 4 to a much broader array of players nation-wide.

For shaaaaaame. Smash 4 is my game, and not anyone else's.

Just like that 90s grunge rock band that got too popular for me to like any more, if Smash 4 got popular I would quit. I don't need hipsters ruining my experience.

I'm glad this community is pioneered by well adjusted people, so that never happens.

 

[Raijinken]

My state's large events basically said the interest was too little to even allow someone else to share the venue earlier in the morning to run a small Customs event. Apparently there aren't enough hours in the day if your day starts four hours after everyone else's.

I know a lot of people, especially around here, who think running weeklies is far too often to have tournaments anyway. Did that make them consider alternating games/rulesets? Nope. Just triple-dip Melee/PM/Default-4 every two weeks.

 

[LancerStaff]

You may have a point with the concept of the character itself not having more depth, but you can't deny that the custom moves do help characters improve and become more tournament viable. If more characters are tournament viable then that allows for more depth in the competitive meta. What will yield a deeper meta game 5 viable characters or 8? (throwing out random numbers for an example lol). Certain moves may be better for certain match ups, which would make the game even more complex. Honestly the meta was neutered before we were really able to see what it could do. Also, the fact that more and more characters have slowly become viable and winning/placing high in tournaments, customs would have accelerated that effect.

There are lot's of reason that the items argument doesn't fit well here. First of all, items were in the early competitive scene for melee and we all know the obvious reason why it made sense to ban them. You can just flat out ignore items if the are on the map anyway. What if you want to dash attack and you pick up an item? or you smash attack hits a box instead of an opponent? They basically become obstructions in the game that SEVERELY imbalance play. That's like deciding to go game 1 to Pyrosphere and we'll just ignore the lava...

You also can't say that some characters don't lose heavily. And I still don't see customs helping balance overall... Customs wouldn't of helped MK or Ryu. Customs would of probably condemned all the DLC characters besides Ryu to the bottom tiers even harder then they are now. When was the last time you saw any of them at a tournament?

Items were banned in Melee for explosive capsules you couldn't turn off. Nowadays we can disable anything overpowered or random at will. Unlike customs advocates, items advocates didn't have an all-or-nothing mindset. They're willing to disable crates and bombs and what have you.

It'd help if Phyrosphere actually had a lava hazard, but I get the picture... Accidentally DAing and grabbing a Beam Sword isn't exactly much of a hindrance. If all else fails you can toss it upwards and make another hitbox for the opponent to avoid.

There's a lot of experimentation and potential to be had with items play. For example, what if the loser could counterpick the items that show up? Let's say it's Bowser or Dorf against Sheik. They lose round one, but then they turn on Beam Swords only. Sheik doesn't get as much from Beam Swords then Bowser and Dorf do because Sheik loses her good jab, Ftilt and grab while Bowser and Dorf can still technically grab and their fairly bad ground moves get replaced with decent ones. Bowser and Dorf can live without quick access to their Fsmashes too. Beam Swords and most other melee items work for grounded A moves much like custom specials do for, well, specials. And then throwables for projectiles.

I bring up items in the first place because ignoring custom specials while they're on is like ignoring items while they're on. You're nuts if you're not going to use something that grants an advantage.

They're not, Palutena's defaults are terrible.

They're not, Palutena's customs are great.

I'm saying that Palutena isn't bottom 5 gutter trash without and I find it hard to believe that she even makes it to like top 30 with. Look at Charizard... He got massive buffs to Uthrow and Dthrow and yet people haven't really changed their opinion on him. You can bet if his Uthrow and Dthrow were customs people would think differently.

 

[Dinoman96]

Palutena probably isn't top tier (as in, in the same tier with ZSS and Rosalina) with customs but I can assure you she isn't below Top 30. The things she can do with Superspeed and Lightweight are crazy. Aerolink did great work with her, even managing to beat Larry Lurr at a grand final.

 

[LancerStaff]

Palutena probably isn't top tier (as in, in the same tier with ZSS and Rosalina) with customs but I can assure you she isn't below Top 30. The things she can do with Superspeed and Lightweight are crazy. Aerolink did great work with her, even managing to beat Larry Lurr at a grand final.

Japan usually has her pegged where most people overseas rate her in customs, last I checked. She's hilariously misunderstood and people barely know where to put her without customs, much less with.

 

[Terotrous]

Oh, so hypothetically we're running multiple pools and distributing Smash 4 to a much broader array of players nation-wide.

For shaaaaaame. Smash 4 is my game, and not anyone else's.

Do you actually have any experience running tournaments? Running majors for even one game is a massive amount of work. If you want to volunteer to run Smash 4 Customs at EVO (or even at your local events) that would be a good way to give the scene more exposure.

Also, "a much broader array of players" is clearly hyperbole. The playerbase basically didn't change much at all when we switched from Customs Off to Customs On and back again. It'd be pretty much the same players entering both tournaments.

Incidentally, this means twice as many pools to run.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just have one pool and simply allow the use of Custom Moves. It will take slightly longer due to Custom preferences and needing to upload the data in a slot but everyone can choose to use them or not use them at all. This isn't hard.

Or maybe the only people that participate in tournaments care not for customs at all and only the minority such as I(and I don't participate in tournies either) only care about customs and their applications in a battle.

I just fear without custom play a majority of the cast won't see their full potential and the meta will only ever favor slight shifts instead of major ones.

Shifts centered around the top tiers at that. And that's boring.

 

[PKBeam]

thing is, when you have just one event that's customs allowed, the people who prefer default are now forced up against people who are free to use customs.

customs and default are very different things, but both can add to the smash 4 meta and as such, each should be given their own event.

 

[Pazx]

thing is, when you have just one event that's customs allowed, the people who prefer default are now forced up against people who are free to use customs.

customs and default are very different things, but both can add to the smash 4 meta and as such, each should be given their own event.

I don't think anybody is saying customs-on should be the only type of event being ran.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You all seem not to have TO'd anything (well, not everyone, but almost), I'm saying this because you aim to single events and that makes it really hard for you to accept Customs as an alternative to Default-only.
But running weeklies/biweeklies alternating between the two is perfectly possible and helps both metagames to grow. Even Xanadu did it.
The problem lies when people simply adopt a major's ruleset, often ignoring reasoning behind every decision and even carrying potential problems that could lie with them. Why are miis largely banned? why is three starters still being used? why are customs banned? Nobody really knows, they just did what the big names told them to do.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Slight tangent, and probably not an entirely educated one, but why are TO's so obligated to be led around by all the "shouldn't"s more than the "shoulds"?

"You shouldn't run customs" "You shouldn't run Miis"

These at least seem to be prevailing arguments that players enforce onto their TO, where the TO blindly obliges. I've seen plenty TOs or players firmly on the 'should' side of things simply say "there wasn't any interest."

I don't understand how one is supposed to generate interest in something by assuming a lack of interest is static. I'm not interested in games like LoL or WoW, for example. That doesn't mean I will never play them, it means that they haven't captivated me yet.

There are probably plenty of players who don't use customs because they can't unlock them all, and among them perhaps the moves they haven't unlocked are the moves that would sway them. What swayed me most was Megaman's custom moves, as I've previously made apparent that I like. Perhaps if there were more custom Megaman players, the same sort of hype could generate when people see Megaman using Hyperbomb with the finesse of top-level play. Moves like these aren't broken, they simply look amazing. They beg the question of "what if" just enough that you want to try them yourself.

Dropping custom moves because they don't generate enough interest won't generate interest. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy that takes an extremely obtuse outlook on the game to utilize freely. At the same time, shackling players to the custom moves isn't a solution either, but nobody is forcing you to use custom moves when custom moves are on. You might have to fight an opponent utilizing them, but what the hell is the problem with that? Your opponent wants to have fun more than you? Your opponent is utilizing the tools available to them to win the event everyone else is trying to win? Is their victory somehow less deserving because custom moves happen to be on?

 

[MagiusNecros]

They just don't want to learn the matchup. All I think it is. Or if they are trying to make money off their matches they may not guarantee that by not knowing the matchup with the variations of attacks.

At the end of the day whatever the reason it all boils down to conservative laziness and a refusal to learn or evolve. And that's fine I guess, I just won't be taking any active interest in a non-customs meta.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Slight tangent, and probably not an entirely educated one, but why are TO's so obligated to be led around by all the "shouldn't"s more than the "shoulds"?

"You shouldn't run customs" "You shouldn't run Miis"

These at least seem to be prevailing arguments that players enforce onto their TO, where the TO blindly obliges. I've seen plenty TOs or players firmly on the 'should' side of things simply say "there wasn't any interest."

I think its because TOs would rather not waste some of their time unlocking almost every custom move or making different movesets of each Mii if majority of the players of that local tournament says that they don't care or dislike them. Sure, the TO could choose to run customs or legalize Miis despite the complaints against them but the TO has no reason for doing that unless the TO likes customs as well. It also doesn't help that most top players and some popular Smash tubers had expressed their dislike for customs.

Note: I don't hate customs. In fact, I support them, I'm just giving my own input on your question.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It also doesn't help that most top players and some popular Smash tubers had expressed their dislike for customs.

And what's their reasoning for their dislike? Or has no one bothered to ask? I have a few people that don't like them because they say they don't want to play an unbalanced game. Which I passively disagree with. But I play Bowser so who cares what I think right.

 

[Rashyboy05]

And what's their reasoning for their dislike? Or has no one bothered to ask? I have a few people that don't like them because they say they don't want to play an unbalanced game. Which I passively disagree with. But I play Bowser so who cares what I think right.

ZeRo says that he has always disliked customs right from the beginning, Vinnie thinks legalizing Mii customs is 'like playing a luck based game like Mario Party'. Idk about the other Top players but they did bad mouth about customs during EVO. The popular Smash tubers though? The main reason why they dislike customs is because they think customs are "jank" and they use moves like Kong Cyclone and Extreme Balloon Trip as examples of "Janky" customs.

 

[Ansou]

I bring up items in the first place because ignoring custom specials while they're on is like ignoring items while they're on. You're nuts if you're not going to use something that grants an advantage.

Just like you're nuts if you're not using Sheik? Playing with her clearly grants you an advantage. But there are still a lot of people that use different characters. Why is that? Preference. If you prefer to play Pit instead of Sheik, then that is what you should do. If you prefer to play with 1111 instead of 3111 or whatever, then that is what you should do. It would have been a little different if every all special moves with the numbers 2 and 3 were significantly better than those with the number 1. But the thing is that a player can win tournaments even with a suboptimal moveset, just like a player can win tournaments with suboptimal characters. You are really not forced in any way to customize your character just because customization is on.

thing is, when you have just one event that's customs allowed, the people who prefer default are now forced up against people who are free to use customs.

customs and default are very different things, but both can add to the smash 4 meta and as such, each should be given their own event.

Yeah, you will probably be forced to play against customized characters if customization is on. But what is worse; being forced to use certain characters or being forced to play against certain characters? I would say that being forced to use a certain character is because of this reason:
You are free to pick your own character in every Smash game and pretty much every other game. I don't think that anyone would question that that is how it should be. However, this also means that your opponent should be free to pick whichever character they want to play. Who are you to decide which characters your opponent should be able to play? The thing is, even if customization is off, you will be forced to play against characters that you have no control over. But what you are doing by turning customization off is forcing your opponents to play with certain characters, which is really not acceptable.

Note: What I mean with "character" in this post is not only the spot on the character select screen, but the actual complete toolkit that you are using combined with other character attributes.

 

[High Entia]

I was originally in huge favor of customs. That interest arose around when everyone started using customs and I sort of jumped on the customs train. However, nowadays, I'm not so sure. I'm not completely against them, but I'm definitely not in total favor of them like I used to be.

Pros:
This would mean that all debates of Palutena and Miis getting to use customs would be over. If everyone is allowed customs, then that means they are too and players of those characters are happy. It also gives most characters a few more things they can work with as most lower tier characters have at least one custom move that's better than one of the defaults. For example, even just giving Wizard's Dropkick to Ganondorf causes significant improvements for him. However, the best part of customs, I feel, is that they help to make Smash 4 more unique and set it apart from Melee. It also makes the players more unique as two players of the same character could prefer a completely different set of customs, giving a certain uniqueness to each player that default moves can't offer.

Cons:
I don't think it'll increase the overall character viability as much as people think. Sure, characters like Ganondorf and Palutena make huge leaps up the tier list with customs, but someone is going to have to take their place. Customs bring new things to the table and, if certain characters can't defend against these customs-only strategies, then they'll take a nosedive on tier lists. For a random example, what if, say, Ness gets hard countered by custom Palutena? It means that people will just start using Palutena against Ness players to beat them and those players will either place much lower or have to rely on a secondary to beat Palutenas. Therefore, Ness will drop on the tier list.

Also, certain characters, like Jigglypuff and Zelda, get next to nothing from their custom moves, making them even worse then they already are. The bottom tier won't disappear. It'll just become filled with characters who either A) have garbage custom moves or B) get completely shut down by certain customs-only strategies and won't make any serious impact as long as those strategies are around. Customs supporters seem to have this blind idea that customs will only help the entire cast. I assure you, there's plenty of harm to be done. The tiers will look different, but there's no way customs even come close to making everyone more viable.

The balance could even be made worse. Some customs that belong to top tiered characters are downright broken. For example, Sheik gets shield breaking needles, Rosalina gets a Falco laser, and Pikachu gets to kill you at 60% with Heavy Skill Bash. A customs legal meta will cause these characters to dominate even more than they already do, possibly making the balance of the game worse than default Smash 4. The game balance is one of my favorite things about Smash 4. Every character has something they can do and, as a result, you don't loose to the character as much as you do to the player in this game. However, this game was likely balanced only around the default movesets, not custom moves. If customs only disrupt this game balance, then I'm not in favor of them at all. We haven't done enough testing with customs to prove or disprove this, though, so that's why I'm undecided.


In my mind, customs should not be counted out because they're different since, most of the time, different is good. However, if they're just going to disrupt game balance, then it may not be the best idea. But, we have no idea of knowing this yet. I think a lot of smaller tournaments should start legalizing customs to experiment and we should see how things turn out before making a final decision regarding customs.

 

[MagiusNecros]

ZeRo says that he has always disliked customs right from the beginning, Vinnie thinks legalizing Mii customs is 'like playing a luck based game like Mario Party'. Idk about the other Top players but they did bad mouth about customs during EVO. The popular Smash tubers though? The main reason why they dislike customs is because they think customs are "jank" and they use moves like Kong Cyclone and Extreme Balloon Trip as examples of "Janky" customs.

Which all of these are not reasons at all. Just excuses to not learn anything new. Because they think the neutral sets are simply GOOD ENOUGH and thus feel they shouldn't have to learn. They feel hammered when a new patch only ever adjusts damage on moves and knockback on moves. And only recently the slight change to shield mechanics. Pffft.

ZeRo dislikes them. Tell us why.

Luckbased? How so. If I fight a good Sheik in noncustoms it becomes luckbased for me to win as Bowser since I hope they make a mistake. And if they don't make a mistake rip me. Do you see me ******** or saying ban Sheik because it's the most unfun tedious thing ever because I'm mid tier trash? No. I have to do my best as the character that benefits me in their playstyle.

Jank? So you refuse to learn from your mistakes and label it as jank or foul play because you had a new attack used against you you had little knowledge of and how it works in it's application? You either have players that lack understanding of new mechanics and simply can't adapt to them or just people who mouth off customs because they don't use them and feel that neither should anyone else. Which quite frankly is unacceptable.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Concerns about custom move balance in and of themselves should probably be... Well, better outlined as a concern while playing, and less as a reason not to play.

Nintendo and co. may never fix these moves, but keeping them in public opinion pieces and debate allows Nintendo to see their attention and consider re-examining their utility. We've seen the more recent patch take a handle on a lot of custom moves, which means they're under at least some reevaluation as we speak.

Not using the moves at all... Means their imbalance would never be addressed. It's another self-fulfilling prophesy to the pile of self-fulfilling anti-customs prophesies.

I won't for a second deny that characters like Jiggs or Zelda get shafted with custom moves, but perhaps that's some cause for concern regarding the core character itself. If neutral Zelda cannot even begin to compete with custom Sheik, then one needs buffing and the other needs nerfing. Hiding these facts from the spotlight and ignoring them entirely doesn't fix the problem, it enforces the problem.

At the moment, we can wait and keep our fingers crossed that these problems are addressed. And maybe the never will be. Can we say for certain these characters with poor utility changes are counted out forever? Games like Melee, with their ongoing exploration of mechanics and characters, could say otherwise.

 

[Raijinken]

Lack of analysis is an extremely widespread problem. Worst part of Evo was listening to casters complain that FLSS was a waste of time "because everyone is going to go to Smashville or Battlefield anyway". The status quo is strong in this one, and is the entire reason I run my own tournaments when time and space permit instead of attending others.

Concerns about custom move balance in and of themselves should probably be... Well, better outlined as a concern while playing, and less as a reason not to play.

Nintendo and co. may never fix these moves, but keeping them in public opinion pieces and debate allows Nintendo to see their attention and consider re-examining their utility. We've seen the more recent patch take a handle on a lot of custom moves, which means they're under at least some reevaluation as we speak.

Not using the moves at all... Means their imbalance would never be addressed. It's another self-fulfilling prophesy to the pile of self-fulfilling anti-customs prophesies.

I won't for a second deny that characters like Jiggs or Zelda get shafted with custom moves, but perhaps that's some cause for concern regarding the core character itself. If neutral Zelda cannot even begin to compete with custom Sheik, then one needs buffing and the other needs nerfing. Hiding these facts from the spotlight and ignoring them entirely doesn't fix the problem, it enforces the problem.

At the moment, we can wait and keep our fingers crossed that these problems are addressed. And maybe the never will be. Can we say for certain these characters with poor utility changes are counted out forever? Games like Melee, with their ongoing exploration of mechanics and characters, could say otherwise.

Customs change the meta in a way comparable to how changing the stagelist would do so. Comparable? Yes. Objective superiority or inferiority? Impossible.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just like you're nuts if you're not using Sheik? Playing with her clearly grants you an advantage. But there are still a lot of people that use different characters. Why is that? Preference. If you prefer to play Pit instead of Sheik, then that is what you should do. If you prefer to play with 1111 instead of 3111 or whatever, then that is what you should do. It would have been a little different if every all special moves with the numbers 2 and 3 were significantly better than those with the number 1. But the thing is that a player can win tournaments even with a suboptimal moveset, just like a player can win tournaments with suboptimal characters. You are really not forced in any way to customize your character just because customization is on.


Yeah, you will probably be forced to play against customized characters if customization is on. But what is worse; being forced to use certain characters or being forced to play against certain characters? I would say that being forced to use a certain character is because of this reason:
You are free to pick your own character in every Smash game and pretty much every other game. I don't think that anyone would question that that is how it should be. However, this also means that your opponent should be free to pick whichever character they want to play. Who are you to decide which characters your opponent should be able to play? The thing is, even if customization is off, you will be forced to play against characters that you have no control over. But what you are doing by turning customization off is forcing your opponents to play with certain characters, which is really not acceptable.

Note: What I mean with "character" in this post is not only the spot on the character select screen, but the actual complete toolkit that you are using combined with other character attributes.

People love characters, not moves. Heck, even in games such as Splatoon or Kid Icarus Uprising you struggle to find solo mains of something as impersonal as a weapon. Most people "main" upwards of five weapons in both. People don't play Counter Palutena in customs for any reason besides for practicing for non-customs. Likewise, people don't just ignore good items because they don't like them. When given two similar options, a default character and a customized one for example, people will overwhelmingly pick the better option. You don't need to use items or customs, but the majority of your opponents will. Then it comes down to wether or not the game is better with these on or off... Most would say less is more in this situation, and for good reason.

 

[PKBeam]

Note: What I mean with "character" in this post is not only the spot on the character select screen, but the actual complete toolkit that you are using combined with other character attributes.

1123 Marth is not a different character from 1111 Marth. It is a subset/variation, which I believe is the word you're looking for. No matter how much the playstyle may change, that's still Marth. That's one character you see on the CSS, not 81, and the total character amount is ~55, not >4000.

Yeah, you will probably be forced to play against customized characters if customization is on. But what is worse; being forced to use certain characters or being forced to play against certain characters? I would say that being forced to use a certain character is because of this reason:
You are free to pick your own character in every Smash game and pretty much every other game. I don't think that anyone would question that that is how it should be. However, this also means that your opponent should be free to pick whichever character they want to play. Who are you to decide which characters your opponent should be able to play? The thing is, even if customization is off, you will be forced to play against characters that you have no control over. But what you are doing by turning customization off is forcing your opponents to play with certain characters, which is really not acceptable.

The preferred frame of reference is with customs off, as that is currently what the Smash 4 meta revolves around. Therefore a better wording for your statement is "Turning customs on is allowing you to use more options for your character", which is true.

Also, what's acceptable or not is defined by the rules that you play by. Turning customs off in a tournament is perfectly fine and players that prefer to use customs either tolerate the rules or not participate, and in this aspect I could've worded my previous post
better when I said players were forced.

I think it's healthy for there to be some customs action going on in scenes that can hold an extra event but if they can't, then default is the way to go IMO.

 

[Ansou]

People love characters, not moves.

Not completely true. Sure, a move without a character is nothing, but that doesn't mean that you can't have personal preferences to which moves you want to use together with your character. I definitely know people that use certain moves because they simply fit the player's style more, including myself. Different players use different movesets, more so with some characters than others of course. Since different customizations have different utilities, not everyone likes the same moves. Also known as preference. I myself don't even want to use 1111 Kirby because he just feels dull compared to the character I am used to play with.

1123 Marth is not a different character from 1111 Marth. It is a subset/variation, which I believe is the word you're looking for. No matter how much the playstyle may change, that's still Marth. That's one character you see on the CSS, not 81, and the total character amount is ~55, not >4000.

I actually put a note in my post explaining what I meant with the word "character", so it's a bit unnecessary to nitpick on my wording here. Do you count Wendy as a separate character? Whatever, it's irrelevant anyway.

The preferred frame of reference is with customs off, as that is currently what the Smash 4 meta revolves around. Therefore a better wording for your statement is "Turning customs on is allowing you to use more options for your character", which is true.

You're indeed correct in that most scenes have customization set to off at this point. But for those of us that have spent most of the time with customization set to on or that prefer to use customized characters, not having it set to off is actually quite a big loss by not being able to use a preferred variation of a character. At the same time, turning customization on doesn't affect those that don't want to play with a customized character much. Your opponent should be able to choose what they use regardless, so why would it be justified to complain about having to play against a certain variation?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I think it's healthy for there to be some customs action going on in scenes that can hold an extra event but if they can't, then default is the way to go IMO.

Which is ultimately fine. A large part of the problem stems, however, from a large group of players actively opposing these extra events from occurring at all. Doing everything in their (lazy) power to assure nobody attends, by spreading false accusations to the (equally lazy) masses of people who might have once been interested, but are now against it because they heard a certain move nets you an instant win, or a certain other move changes the dynamic of the match into something they were told they don't want to watch.

Very rarely do you see a customs event, but they are still met with people telling the TO not to run it at all. People telling other people to ignore it. Nobody new attending it. It ultimately affects nobody, but because it has the audacity to exist, it needs to be destroyed.

That, is depressing. That, is why we do everything in our power to find a compromise to better organize all the information and consolidate the presentation into something more accessible for everyone.

At the end of the day, when we present months of information and consideration into a neat kit of tutorials for the world the see, the world would rather follow the 29-character tweet that says "Customs moves are a joke, LOL," as said by a top player in a completely separate part of the world.

And that is wrong.

 

[Raijinken]

Which is ultimately fine. A large part of the problem stems, however, from a large group of players actively opposing these extra events from occurring at all. Doing everything in their (lazy) power to assure nobody attends, by spreading false accusations to the (equally lazy) masses of people who might have once been interested, but are now against it because they heard a certain move nets you an instant win, or a certain other move changes the dynamic of the match into something they were told they don't want to watch.

Very rarely do you see a customs event, but they are still met with people telling the TO not to run it at all. People telling other people to ignore it. Nobody new attending it. It ultimately affects nobody, but because it has the audacity to exist, it needs to be destroyed.

That, is depressing. That, is why we do everything in our power to find a compromise to better organize all the information and consolidate the presentation into something more accessible for everyone.

At the end of the day, when we present months of information and consideration into a neat kit of tutorials for the world the see, the world would rather follow the 29-character tweet that says "Customs moves are a joke, LOL," as said by a top player in a completely separate part of the world.

And that is wrong.

Preach it brother.

To think I'm still having to point out how unimpressive Kong Cyclone is in November 2015.

Uninformed opinions will mortally wound me, and the stubborn ones will finish me off.

Seriously, though. The impressive lack of thought that goes into rulecraft, experimentation, or anything in this community is disgusting. As much as I hate trying to argue with my brother about the results-established tier positions of characters like Zamus and Link, I have to admire his devotion to only caring about what he's actually experienced for himself, even if it means he vocally thinks all Miis are overpowered, Ganondorf is the worst character in the game, Customs are not fair due to menu design, Final Destination is the only fair stage, and Ryu is low tier.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Which is ultimately fine. A large part of the problem stems, however, from a large group of players actively opposing these extra events from occurring at all. Doing everything in their (lazy) power to assure nobody attends, by spreading false accusations to the (equally lazy) masses of people who might have once been interested, but are now against it because they heard a certain move nets you an instant win, or a certain other move changes the dynamic of the match into something they were told they don't want to watch.

Very rarely do you see a customs event, but they are still met with people telling the TO not to run it at all. People telling other people to ignore it. Nobody new attending it. It ultimately affects nobody, but because it has the audacity to exist, it needs to be destroyed.

That, is depressing. That, is why we do everything in our power to find a compromise to better organize all the information and consolidate the presentation into something more accessible for everyone.

At the end of the day, when we present months of information and consideration into a neat kit of tutorials for the world the see, the world would rather follow the 29-character tweet that says "Customs moves are a joke, LOL," as said by a top player in a completely separate part of the world.

And that is wrong.

Well said. It really boils down to a "I can't miss thing if I never used it to begin with and neither should anyone else". Which is really asinine.

@Rajinken - Your brother is wrong on many levels.

Mii's aren't OP at all IMO just a different character with different stats.

Zelda is objectively the worst(until you morph into Sheik) and Ganon while low isn't the worst character.

Customs have nothing to do with menu design if he wants to argue that he can discuss the ugly ass menu design the Wii U version of the game has where everything is cluttered as ****.

FD is a bad stage because of all the flashy effects going on in the BG which will disorient players and just gives advantage to zoners and people with a projectile. Why? No Platforms.

Ryu low tier? Doesn't even deserve a response. Just a EX Shoryuken to the face.

 

[Raijinken]

Well said. It really boils down to a "I can't miss thing if I never used it to begin with and neither should anyone else". Which is really asinine.

@Rajinken - Your brother is wrong on many levels.

Mii's aren't OP at all IMO just a different character with different stats.

Zelda is objectively the worst(until you morph into Sheik) and Ganon while low isn't the worst character.

Customs have nothing to do with menu design if he wants to argue that he can discuss the ugly *** menu design the Wii U version of the game has where everything is cluttered as ****.

FD is a bad stage because of all the flashy effects going on in the BG which will disorient players and just gives advantage to zoners and people with a projectile. Why? No Platforms.

Ryu low tier? Doesn't even deserve a response. Just a EX Shoryuken to the face.

Oh trust me, I know. This is just what I have to put up with when playing with my most regular opponent.

(Though his argument about the customs is that the finite set count makes it unfair to people who want to run outlier sets and don't have time for setup. It's a valid point, but he overblows it to a blanket ban on using them at all).

 

[GeneralLedge]

Imagine if because of some weird software limitation, you could only download three DLC characters...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Imagine if because of some weird software limitation, you could only download three DLC characters...

All DLC characters would be banned forever if that was the case. Or forestalled since Smash DLC characters are still coming.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not completely true. Sure, a move without a character is nothing, but that doesn't mean that you can't have personal preferences to which moves you want to use together with your character. I definitely know people that use certain moves because they simply fit the player's style more, including myself. Different players use different movesets, more so with some characters than others of course. Since different customizations have different utilities, not everyone likes the same moves. Also known as preference. I myself don't even want to use 1111 Kirby because he just feels dull compared to the character I am used to play with.

Very few people actually care that much. Mostly it's for "muh viability." We're not making a major metagame change so a couple people can goof off with weird customs... Can't you just do that online with friends? If we're going to switch to customs we're going to do it for something more concrete then that.

Imagine if because of some weird software limitation, you could only download three DLC characters...

We'd ban DLC characters like we banned the Gamepad. They'd of been banned faster then Pilotwings.

 

[ぱみゅ]

SITUATION 1
A: "I want to play this character, is below mediocre normally, but with customs is usable"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "Well, no but..."
B: "Then it doesn't change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your trivial tastes"

SITUATION 2
A: "I want to play this character, is somewhat usable normally, but is good with customs"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "It is!"
B: "Then it might change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your broken tastes"

 

[MagiusNecros]

A shift in the game through custom moves that changes how a character plays will change matchups and playstyles and will thus change the meta. Both situations you gave is guy who is for customs talking to an elitist punk who doesn't want their game to change.

 

[Raijinken]

A shift in the game through custom moves that changes how a character plays will change matchups and playstyles and will thus change the meta. Both situations you gave is guy who is for customs talking to an elitist punk who doesn't want their game to change.

Yep, that's basically how 99% of customs opposition plays out. The other 1% find them inconvenient to unlock, and think that justifies banning them.

 

[LancerStaff]

SITUATION 1
A: "I want to play this character, is below mediocre normally, but with customs is usable"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "Well, no but..."
B: "Then it doesn't change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your trivial tastes"

SITUATION 2
A: "I want to play this character, is somewhat usable normally, but is good with customs"
B: "Is it top tier?"
A: "It is!"
B: "Then it might change the meta, we're not shifting the game for your broken tastes"

A moderator making a poor strawman to support his argument? What's Smashboards coming to...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A moderator making a poor strawman to support his argument? What's Smashboards coming to...

I've seen both arguments used. (Not by the same person, mind you, but still.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

A moderator making a poor strawman to support his argument? What's Smashboards coming to...

In this thread particularly I am more of an active poster than I am a moderator. I still aim to keep the thread civil and respectful and will do my best to keep it like that.

BUT that post wasn't a random strawman. Within this thread the anti-custom faction has claimed both instances of customs randomly boosting characters with overpowered moves, and the fact that having customs only complicates matchups with no real changes to the overall metagame.
Using it to support my argument? It's mostly to demonstrate the opposition's argument is not particularly solid.

 

[LancerStaff]

In this thread particularly I am more of an active poster than I am a moderator. I still aim to keep the thread civil and respectful and will do my best to keep it like that.

BUT that post wasn't a random strawman. Within this thread the anti-custom faction has claimed both instances of customs randomly boosting characters with overpowered moves, and the fact that having customs only complicates matchups with no real changes to the overall metagame.
Using it to support my argument? It's mostly to demonstrate the opposition's argument is not particularly solid.

I understand how the mod system works... But that's a very poorly thought out argument if I've seen one. Mods are supposed to be kind or intelligent. That is neither.

Your argument is sunk by one critical flaw: That not everybody against customs is strictly under the same faction. Simple logic, yes? Some of us oppose customs for one reason, others for another. This is inherently bad somehow?

Like I said before, those for customs need unified or otherwise it crumbles. Those opposed don't by the simple virtue that customs off doesn't need additional rules to function. Doesn't matter if we agree on why customs should be gone, because we agree they should be gone. If somebody wants customs though, they probably have a certain idea in mind how they'll be implemented. You're not pleasing all of the customs supporters.

If anything the post is proof of how one-dimensional and toxic the customs community acts in regards to opposition. They'll bandwagon against anything that makes custom opposers look bad in their eyes... No wonder everybody just ignores all customs support instead of attempting to reason against it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

those for customs need unified or otherwise it crumbles

I'll use this as a pivot because I'd like to address this particular point.
The Pro-Custom faction can not be unified because we have not one single issue to address, and I don't mean we have tons of problems (we actually only have one: logistics, which is easily solved with one single 3DS per community), but we meet tons of counter-arguments, often lacking any solid base or even logic. How are we supposed to present an unified argument if the opposition covers both "not good enough" and "too good" and there is no in-between? Even worse, if the counter-argument varies depending on who you ask to, what can possibly a united response achieve if you need to change it every time?

The problem is not that we are being one-dimensional and toxic. The problem is that the opposition is not a single target, but rather a collection of ideas that can't be beaten with an unified argument.

EVO did the right thing by simply saying "we're running like this anyway" and everybody prepared for it. And guess what? it turned out well, players who were prepared advanced and those who weren't drowned.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll use this as a pivot because I'd like to address this particular point.
The Pro-Custom faction can not be unified because we have not one single issue to address, and I don't mean we have tons of problems (we actually only have one: logistics, which is easily solved with one single 3DS per community), but we meet tons of counter-arguments, often lacking any solid base or even logic. How are we supposed to present an unified argument if the opposition covers both "not good enough" and "too good" and there is no in-between? Even worse, if the counter-argument varies depending on who you ask to, what can possibly a united response achieve if you need to change it every time?

The problem is not that we are being one-dimensional and toxic. The problem is that the opposition is not a single target, but rather a collection of ideas that can't be beaten with an unified argument.

EVO did the right thing by simply saying "we're running like this anyway" and everybody prepared for it. And guess what? it turned out well, players who were prepared advanced and those who weren't drowned.

Missing the point again. It's not about giving a consistent argument... Those against customs don't get a free pass while customs supporters have to abide. It's about how exactly people want customs handled. You do realize that not everybody in favor of customs wants all customs available, right? Once again, the discussion has turned so toxic it's disallowing anything but the "official" custom move set project to be considered.

EVO didn't turn out well. People overwhelmingly ignored customs in a sort of gentleman's rule or protest. It was a failure for customs because now everybody thinks less of them.