What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[MrGame&Rock]

I know this is blatantly off-topic, but I've wanted to jot this down somewhere, may as well be here.

If I were to give Ryu custom moves, I'd go the "Sonic's crappy spindash alt" route, and make the custom moves a way of changing how the player handles the character.

For example,

Hadoken 2: "Can only be true-performed using the B button. A button will not work."

Hadoken 3: "Can only be true-performed using the A button. B button will not work."


And that'd be it. No change in speed or damage or whatever, just a control change. In Ryu's case, this would be insanely useful; Ryu 2222 would completely avoid accidental control flubs when trying to use regular A moves with more frantic inputs. Any combination of 2's and 3's would be incredibly useful for precise input styles, based on player preference.

And, it would actually give an extremely strong reason to use Ryu in customs, without customs-off being entirely compromising. My two cents.

I was actually thinking something like that, except something more like:

Hadoken 2: B input is as strong as default special input. Maybe stronger. Special input doesn't work. (you lose the fireball style one)
Hadoken 3: Maps the fireball Hadoken to the B button, if in a weaker form. Special inputs still work.

Shoryuken 2: Input as strong as default special input. Special input doesn't work. Doesn't go as high
Shoryuken 3: B input goes higher with no hitbox. Special input goes unchanged

 

[LancerStaff]

While it's unfortunate that DLC characters don't get Customs (though they tried to, as proved by those Mewtwo videos), I do not see how that is an argument against them.

If Mewtwo's borked animations means he was supposed to get customs then Blaziken was supposed to be playable as a Captain Falcon clone since you can model swap him on here in Smash 4.

Which is to say, no, they mean nothing. Game programming just gets freakin' weird when you get off the rails.

 

[SoniCraft]

If Mewtwo's borked animations means he was supposed to get customs then Blaziken was supposed to be playable as a Captain Falcon clone since you can model swap him on here in Smash 4.

Which is to say, no, they mean nothing. Game programming just gets freakin' weird when you get off the rails.

I don't see why the developers trying to make custom moves for Mewtwo is so weird. Makes a lot of sense to me. I guess what doesn't make sense is why they didn't follow through. :/

 

[Pyr]

I really don't think they did. They are just programming it the same way they have for the last 25 years: Invalid variable entered that modifies what another variable looks for? Reference a different location from the same starting point and use the data already available in this data set.

Custom move that is invalid for the character? Check the properties of the move and what it changes, then find the corresponding animation in the same general location that would of made this custom move work in another situation. Then make it work. The game might crash, but at least it gives it a shot to not do that thing.

Extremely simplified, but that's the jist of it. The game will do whatever it can to not die. This includes looking for something valid in something invalid. If we could directly control Mewtwo's "customs" and apply it to another character, it'd have the same effects with different animations.

Like Lancer said, really weird stuff when you make a game do what it's not supposed to do. Like... Calling literal game variables in your items screen when you force it to show things beyond what it normally can (Pokemon Red/Blue), or overloading the game to the point where it starts spitting random things out, including the round-ending item (Megaman 1), and instantly calling any valid sprite when you basically throw a barrel of nothing because it absolutely needs to throw something there (Donkey Kong Country 2, Snes, and, when that fails, call the first thing you can find to avoid a complete crash).

tl;dr: Forcing a game to do the impossible, then having something unique and equally impossible happen, doesn't mean something was meant to be there. It just means the game is well made enough to not insta-crash in the face of adversity.

 

[LancerStaff]

I really don't think they did. They are just programming it the same way they have for the last 25 years: Invalid variable entered that modifies what another variable looks for? Reference a different location from the same starting point and use the data already available in this data set.

Custom move that is invalid for the character? Check the properties of the move and what it changes, then find the corresponding animation in the same general location that would of made this custom move work in another situation. Then make it work. The game might crash, but at least it gives it a shot to not do that thing.

Extremely simplified, but that's the jist of it. The game will do whatever it can to not die. This includes looking for something valid in something invalid. If we could directly control Mewtwo's "customs" and apply it to another character, it'd have the same effects with different animations.

Like Lancer said, really weird stuff when you make a game do what it's not supposed to do. Like... Calling literal game variables in your items screen when you force it to show things beyond what it normally can (Pokemon Red/Blue), or overloading the game to the point where it starts spitting random things out, including the round-ending item (Megaman 1), and instantly calling any valid sprite when you basically throw a barrel of nothing because it absolutely needs to throw something there (Donkey Kong Country 2, Snes, and, when that fails, call the first thing you can find to avoid a complete crash).

tl;dr: Forcing a game to do the impossible, then having something unique and equally impossible happen, doesn't mean something was meant to be there. It just means the game is well made enough to not insta-crash in the face of adversity.

I prefer to think of games as machines then actually being alive. When told to do something, they'll do it no matter how ridiculous the outcome will be. The game isn't making up fake customs because it's avoiding a crash, but that it's doing exactly as it was told. There's no sense of right and wrong either, so if it's told to call up the credits in the very first level (Super Mario World by the way) it'll do it without a peep.

Anyway, there's more evidence as to Mewtwo's "customs" being fraudulent. Turns out there's unused fourth specials that every normal character has. Mario's are relatively functional, namely an ice ball and an electric FLUDD. Everybody else, with some exceptions, has "blank" moves with similar frame data and animations to the defaults but no hitboxes or other effects. No glitchy animations or game crashes, just nonfunctional moves. Although Palutena's lock her in a weird pose and Ness's Uspecial does actually crash the game... Still, that's much more then Mewtwo has. Nobody else calls out Final Smash data.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The game will do whatever it can to not die. This includes looking for something valid in something invalid.

Eh, sorta?

Machine code is very simple; input tells it to jump to a certain address of information, and it goes there without much thought.

If, for example, all custom moves universally tell the machine to jump ahead 200 blocks of code, it will. If nothing happens to be there except the code for the stopwatch item, it'll do that. If the code to close the game happened to exist there, it'd do that instead. If there was a loop waiting for some other input that the player could not possibly enter at that time (because the machine hasn't expected it), the game will freeze indefinitely.

In older games, more generic prompts for input (or, rather, offset address locations that the previous sequence of commands would read this way) would allow people to enter arbitrary code by pressing different buttons in sequence -- if you've ever seen a TAS (hint: this link) where the game suddenly jumps to the credits for seemingly no reason at all, this would be why.

tl;dr computers are dumb.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

what does this have to do with whether customs should be legal?

 

[Raijinken]

what does this have to do with whether customs should be legal?

Points or counter-points to "there exists space in the code for them" or "Mewtwo kinda has 'em" arguments. Which, while valiant, are a bit like arguing that Brawl's roster has seven extra characters than the available roster. True in some ways, but ultimately irrelevant to the existing implementation. Fragmented could-have-beens are cool to think about, but, like other subjective things like how much fun someone has against a windbox, irrelevant to rulecraft.

Speaking of irrelevant to the existing implementation within the game: All arguments against Mii customs.

To the point about unlocks on systems, my plan, if/when I resume TOing, is probably going to be to only consider a setup "full" if all specials are unlocked for all characters. Of course, I know more than a few people willing to sacrifice a discount if it means they don't have to do some easy or passive grind to get the discount.

 

[LancerStaff]

what does this have to do with whether customs should be legal?

It was about if the devs cared enough about customs to even try giving some to Mewtwo. Which I find to be silly since I've never heard people scream "developer intent doesn't matter" then customs supporters...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It was about if the devs cared enough about customs to even try giving some to Mewtwo. Which I find to be silly since I've never heard people scream "developer intent doesn't matter" then customs supporters...

I mean, there's a reason we didn't adopt the For Glory ruleset, and that's because we really don't care all that much about what Sakurai thinks competitive play should look like. (Glossing over the fact that FG is probably built the way it is mostly for the simplicity, instead of trying to sort all stages into a Glory pile and Fun pile.)

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, there's a reason we didn't adopt the For Glory ruleset, and that's because we really don't care all that much about what Sakurai thinks competitive play should look like. (Glossing over the fact that FG is probably built the way it is mostly for the simplicity, instead of trying to sort all stages into a Glory pile and Fun pile.)

That's a bit different though... Stages have never been an issue to get in Smash. Even in Melee you only need one memory card to set up a bunch of different systems, and after that obtaining stages has always been quite easy.

Customs are actually hard to obtain. They're intentionally made this way to make playing solo modes more important, and part of a larger RPG-like system akin to KIU's weapons or SSE's stickers. More for building up something and then going "hey, look what I can do!" when you play with your friends instead of something remotely serious. Unlike KIU you're not allowed to use these on randoms and serious play using them is a pain, and they put hilariously little effort into balancing them to boot.

Actually, on the topic of balancing... If anything they're going to end up making all the customs "equal" to the defaults if they do decide to balance them right, and they're not going to be balanced for 1v1s either. The likes of Dark Fists (IIRC) and Dragon Rush are pretty much only good because they're overtuned. Once they're in line with the defaults the whole "more viable characters" thing is kaputt, and the variety will be way down since balancing for FFAs slants 1v1s so that it heavily favors low risk, low reward moves.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dragon rush is really just a mobility option, it doesn't generally enable anything ridiculous that default moves don't. It's pretty weak and kills mostly via set knockback by the blastzone.

Dark fist is lol tho

But even that isn't even really much better than shoryuken in all honestly so kind of hard to argue against it now. (It's also much much worse now with the shield changes. The only consistent set-up before was an oos punish)

 

[LancerStaff]

Dragon rush is really just a mobility option, it doesn't generally enable anything ridiculous that default moves don't. It's pretty weak and kills mostly via set knockback by the blastzone.

Dark fist is lol tho

But even that isn't even really much better than shoryuken in all honestly so kind of hard to argue against it now. (It's also much much worse now with the shield changes. The only consistent set-up before was an oos punish)

...I think you missed the "not going to be balanced for 1v1s" bit.

 

[Raijinken]

Dragon rush is really just a mobility option, it doesn't generally enable anything ridiculous that default moves don't. It's pretty weak and kills mostly via set knockback by the blastzone.

Dark fist is lol tho

But even that isn't even really much better than shoryuken in all honestly so kind of hard to argue against it now. (It's also much much worse now with the shield changes. The only consistent set-up before was an oos punish)

To say nothing of failing to connect into itself against certain weight/float ranges or damage ranges.

An interesting thought, though. Should a move, strong alone but stuck on a character widely considered to be bad, be ban-worthy, if there are other options of comparable strength, amplified by being on characters who are actually good even without that similar move, allowed?

My hunch is that most rational people would think that'd be nonsense. Then again, I gave up months ago on the idea that most vocal Anti-Customs players were rational in this regard.

I mean, there's a reason we didn't adopt the For Glory ruleset, and that's because we really don't care all that much about what Sakurai thinks competitive play should look like. (Glossing over the fact that FG is probably built the way it is mostly for the simplicity, instead of trying to sort all stages into a Glory pile and Fun pile.)

Heck, not even the community can agree on the Glory Pile and Fun Pile of stages. We won't take a simple solution, and hence the debate and problems arise.

Unlike KIU you're not allowed to use these on randoms and serious play using them is a pain, and they put hilariously little effort into balancing them to boot.

If those assorted players on Tournament Mode aren't randoms, then I don't think we are defining that word in the same way.

And speaking of not using terms the same way...

...I think you missed the "not going to be balanced for 1v1s" bit.

I'd have sworn it'd been established months ago that the game was not going to be balanced for 1v1s.

 

[DunnoBro]

...I think you missed the "not going to be balanced for 1v1s" bit.

No dude, Dragon rush is ass in FFA (decent for dubs) and Dark fist is only good by virtue of the alternatives being ass. Shoryuken is better in every way for dubs/ffas since it's way less punishable/interruptible.

If they don't think shoryuken with it's myriad of set-ups is an issue I doubt they'd think dark fist without any is

 

[LancerStaff]

If those assorted players on Tournament Mode aren't randoms, then I don't think we are defining that word in the same way.

And speaking of not using terms the same way...

I'd have sworn it'd been established months ago that the game was not going to be balanced for 1v1s.

Tournament mode isn't very accessible and there's limited slots for specials tournaments... Point is that it's very clearly not a main mode, unlike KIU which outright lacked an option to even disable custom weapons. Heck, I usually don't see the specials tournaments even get filled so I question how much data they're even getting out of them.

You'd think, but you have to specify it or people don't apparently understand what you're saying... And people still argue it to the day even with very clear proof to the contrary.

No dude, Dragon rush is *** in FFA (decent for dubs) and Dark fist is only good by virtue of the alternatives being ***. Shoryuken is better in every way for dubs/ffas since it's way less punishable/interruptible.

If they don't think shoryuken with it's myriad of set-ups is an issue I doubt they'd think dark fist without any is

How good Dragon Rush is depends on how good your opponents are at shielding and how big the stage is...

Dorf and Ryu aren't the same character though. And Ryu isn't just a better Dorf in FFAs if that's what you're implying... They're not that inept at balancing.

 

[Dinoman96]

Tourney Mode tends to be more active during the weekends or at night. Last Saturday I managed to play in like four different brackets in a row during the afternoon, which usually doesn't happen during a weekday.

 

[Steelballray]

Honestly this whole "wahhh customs R jank" and "1111 Miis" crap has to stop NOW. Don't like customs? Too bad too sad, plenty of people do and would like to use them in more tournaments but can't because of Zero or whatever big Brawl turned sm4sh player opening their mouths to whine about customs being "jank" when really, they don't have any room to talk about jank coming from a game that had the most janky *** mechanic in all of fighting game history.

TRIPPING!

As a result, Zero or whomever's sheeple fans follow whatever their false god says without question and that's infuriating to people like me who want to see customs used more in the competitive community but keep getting shot down by what's essentially a group of professional... crybabies for want of a better word throwing or threatening to throw an immature temper tantrum about it on Twitter or Reddit.

i.e When Zero whined about custom Mii's being allowed at MLG New Orleans recently. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but custom Mii's were allowed at the recent MLG event right?) The way I see it, we start using customs of our own free will at tournaments both big and small to spite the anti customs crowd. IF the TO tries to get on our case about it, we stand up to him/her, look them dead in the eyes, and tell them (politely) it's not their position any longer to tell us what we can and can't do with customs. Simple as that. If you get banned from said tournament, feel free to tell your story on the smash bros reddit. TO's live and die on reputation. Enough people complain about anti customs rules, we may see some TO's start being pro customs.

In other words, think of how the minority crowd throughout history broke stupid laws they knew were asinine until the government stepped in and make X legal. X being civil rights, gay marriage being legalized, etc. The more we use customs to spite the anti customs crowd, the more people will want to see them used more as a whole and before long, even someone as stubborn as Zero will have no choice but to give in and maybe make some positive custom moves videos. From there with all the exposure, customs will become a regular thing and we won't have to put up with stubborn people who don't want them They can go take a hike if they don't like it. lol

Honestly, every anti customs argument I've seen can easily and I mean easily be refuted.

1. Customs are jank/fraud: You automatically lost said argument for repeating Zero's and other sm4sh players piss poor choice of words in thier faulty anti customs argument. Move along please. The ones that might give some players trouble like DK's tornado custom or some of Villager's customs were usually proven to be nowhere near as bad as top players made them out to be. Part of any fighting game is learning to adapt to your opponent and find ways around any tricks they have up their sleeves as best you can. Can't do that, competitive play is probably NOT for you.

2. DLC Characters don't have them so it wouldn't be fair: *ahem* this summer's EVO proved that you don't need to play a customs character to beat a character using them.

3. Customs take too long to set up: No they don't actually. It can easily be done the night before a tournament or even that morning. Power saves with all customs unlocked come in handy in this case.

4. Customs take too long to pick: Know what else takes what can sometimes feel like eternity? Stage picking/striking and that goes for all smash games, not just 4. With how long it takes to pick a damn stage sometimes especially in high level play, there's no excuse why pro customs can't take a minute to choose their loadout between matches what with up to 10 customs slots being saved at any time.

5. Customs take too long to unlock/is a pain in the ***: Not going to lie, its ****ing ******** how you can easily get the SAME MOVES over and over sometimes when playing Classic/Smash Run. Other than that, the games been out for over a year, so if you don't even have half of all of them by now, I don't know what to say to you at this point. As the game moves forward and more and more people pick up either version of it, its probably going to be a given that more people will have at least half of all custom moves unlocked at the very least than people who don't so if your still trying to use that argument by that time...again, I don't know what to say to you. :/

6. Japan/Europe doesn't use them: Too bad for them, but if they expect to start winning or placing well in tournaments here that use customs as the default option or allow them in general, they had best start incorporating them into their regimen. That's all I've got to say. Also read point 1.

There's no good reason anymore not to make customs a regular thing in mine and several other peoples opinions. Ignore the pros who keep crying about them. (Heck, start chastising them more every time they throw a fit about customs on Twitter/Reddit until they realize it would be probably be better for them to start being for customs)

tl;dr STILL don't want customs? Sorry, but us pro customs peeps are sick and tired of you anti's being the vocal ones in our community and some of us probably wish your kind would leave if you don't like customs that much. We're not saying you ALWAYS have to do customs on, but at least be prepared if someone whips out a customs Rosalina for example at your next tournament. (who plays much more aggressively last I checked with customs on)

Also, feel free to use any of my points next time someone on social media is spouting tired anti customs arguments

Of course, this is just my thoughts on customs as a whole. Don't think this is somehow fact even though I make (I feel) some good points about being pro-customs.

I know this is a bit old, but this is the funniest **** I've read in a while.

 

[PoptartLord]

More opinions!
It's been a while, so here are some more thoughts on topics old and new. The following is not directed at anyone in particular regardless of whether they brought it up previously.
I just finished typing this out and the post is longer than I expected. Ah well.

Palutena:
She shouldn't be treated any differently than the other non-Miis. Her alternate specials being available from the start is a terrible reason to give her special treatment. It's like saying "I would support their inclusion, but I don't want to put in the effort of unlocking them on each character, but I don't have to do that with her so let's give her a pass". Take a stand and just say that you're concerned about the logistics issue; I can respect that line of reasoning.

This next bit is more about game design than the topic of this thread so I'm hiding it. Feel free to skip it.

Spoiler: Background thoughts

Starting the game with one character having full special availability was a good design choice. Having a choice of specials is brand new to the series and this gives players a taste of what's now available. Once people know it's there they'll be more open to collecting the rest.
I'm going to relate this to Goldeneye for the N64. For those of you that don't know/recall, the main game is basically a series of self-contained missions. Each mission could unlock one cheat, if completed on a specific difficulty and under a certain time. These would range in effect from paintball mode to having all weapons (note: no progress could be made with cheats on, they're just for fun). Now when you first start the game there is no reference to this whatsoever. The cheat menu doesn't even appear until you've unlocked your first cheat, meaning it's possible to go through the entire game without realizing it's there. So what the game developers did was, in one of the earliest missions, set the unlock bar so low that first-timers could start said mission, prepare and drink a hot beverage after forgetting to pause, and then complete the mission and unlock the cheat. Now players know what's available and can play around with it, thereby piquing interest in trying to unlock the rest. To tie this back to Smash, Palutena is the easy access first experience with the new system (that needs unlocking) that brings awareness and the desire to see what else there is.

Allowing only 1111, 2222, & 3333 sets:
The compromise that does more harm than good. To have such sets available you would either have to 1) have all specials unlocked or 2) upload them from an unlocked 3DS. In the first case there is no reason for such heavy restrictions because the lengthy unlocking process is complete, and making any set of your liking takes about 30 seconds. Finding your opponent, getting to the system, or even selecting a stage can take longer than that. Now in the second case it doesn't take longer to upload 10 sets instead. In either case the logistics don't work out. You're stopping at 99% when most of the value is in the final 1%, which is skipped because.... reasons?

On compromises:
Maybe I'm misconstruing things, but I've always thought the Custom Moveset Project (CMP) was the compromise. One extreme is completely disallowing the use of alternate specials. This is the current standard seen in most areas. The other extreme is having all specials unlocked on each system and people can make their own sets at will. Logistically this is impractical for systems that only see tournament use. At least until Wii U hacking advances a bit to where a full unlock can be done in minutes (like the 3DS). Anyway, between these two extremes we have the CMP. It's a once-and-done upload of the more popular sets that's logistically sound. It takes longer to unlock all the characters than to set this up. See below for my experience with this.

The update:
So recently there was an update where the vast majority of the balancing was specifically on the alternate specials. This happened right after they could be used online. This did not surprise me in the slightest; usage data leads to balance patches.
I recall reading that people were against the alternate specials because "they're not balanced" and "the only time they're touched in the balance patches is just to mimic what the default gets". I don't expect the first quote to be said any less frequently now.

Kong Cyclone:
People are still up in arms about this? Ok, let's dissect this a bit to see why it's designed the way it is. The theme is that the opponent gets drawn into a cyclone, roughed up, then thrown out (just like Luiginary Typhoon from M&L: Dream Team, which I've finally gotten to). The attraction is very dangerous; all anybody has to do is throw out a long lasting hitbox to hit you, making the attack a detriment. That's where the armor comes in. Without it the whole thing falls apart. But making it fully armored would be too good. So only the middle part, which accounts for vacuum effect travel time, is armored. The tricky part of countering this move is that it doesn't look like it's vulnerable. The armor ends while DK is still spinning, so you can't wait until the animation stops to punish him.

Explosive Balloon Trip:
I don't like how the balloons go through stage geometry that characters can't. I don't know if this is a glitch or just tricky collision handling (leaning toward glitch). In any case, Villager now has less recovery fuel and the explosions have smaller hitboxes, so there's those concerns being addressed.


Story Time!!
These are just some stories related to the main topic.

So at a tournament the other week I overheard part of a sentence: "...well I don't like them because 1) everything's a windbox and 2) they all have ridiculous kill power". The 1) and 2) were finger list motions. You get three guesses as to what this was about. So yeah, those are still things people say. It sounded kind of.... scripted? Or like he was recounting something he read and was passing it off as his own thoughts.

This story is about one of the specials that is hailed as a "strict upgrade" that should always be used over the default when allowed: Dragon Rush. I was playing some friendlies matches and we were messing around, and we wound up doing a pokemon battle on Kalos. He played Jigglypuff and I was Charizard. It was nearing the end of the match and the flame pillars came out. Jigglypuff had settled in between the two pillars while I was on the outside. After a few seconds of neither of us wanting to jump over a pillar and approach, I thought to myself "wait, isn't this armored?"... and Flare Blitzed right through the fire straight into Jigglypuff. If it wasn't for the other pillar that would've killed. Anyway, the exchange was hilarious; even the onlookers were laughing at the absurdity. Now the point of all this is that Dragon Rush is *not* armored, and had I tried that stunt with it I would've been burned. The alternate specials are all give and take, and only rarely are the negatives brought to light.

Remember when I said "see below"? This is the place. I finally picked up the 3DS version and used a save file mod to set up the EVO sets, partially just to see how long it actually takes to do. I followed a thread here, used the tools provided, and got it running on the first try. It took 5 minutes and everything was GUI based. It was really, really simple to do; the tool creators did all the actual work.

-PoptartLord

EDIT: Fixed a spelling mistake

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just being a bit anecdotal, but right now I have only Miis and Palutena allowed in my community because I have shared the CMP's sets with everyone and now they're outdated so they are quite pointless, so, those are the only allowed ones atm so they can prepare properly.
I still encourage them to unlock every custom move to prepare for future events.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Paste from main competitive topic:

-

It'd be super neat if customs were on a basis of "use what you can get", rather than "YOU NEED TO UNLOCK ALL OF THEM".

ie. If a TO tried very very hard to unlock all the customs but gave up, there should be some lee-way to use what they could unlock, and not just toss everything in the bin because they only had 90% of customs instead of 100%.

Then, during registration, players state on-paper which customs they want to use (if any). If of these customs some are unavailable, the TO contacts them and says "I'm sorry, I don't have this custom move available, can you use the default as an alternative?" and wait for a response.

All of the default moves are tried and true, and I can't think of many that /require/ using a second custom to go from 'awful' to 'amazing'.

But I guess a known inconsistency in hosting is a big no-no. TO's are probably better off not even trying.

 

[LancerStaff]

We were told to scoot, so here I am...

Truth be told, I wouldn't really care that much about custom moves had Palutena not been completely tied into it all.

It's just frustrating. This character really needs her customs to shine, but customs don't exist in the competitive scene anymore. And Sakurai isn't going to majorly buff her because he probably thinks she's just fine with customs...despite basically not existing at this point.

She just seems trapped in low/bottom tier with no way out. It's like her best hope at this point is waiting for a Project M-esque mod to come along and completely change her character around.

If that were the case then Jigglypuff would of had heavy buffs by now. She's had nearly nothing.

Sakurai doesn't care about 1v1 viability unless you're too good/braindead. If Palutena had "boring" customs like everybody else she wouldn't of gotten any different buffs then what she's had. I'm sorry, but having different animations doesn't justify Palutena having customs more then anybody else. As it stands she's a fully functional character and works just as well as any other character in the main mode of the game, much like Zelda or Puff or any other character really.

You know the last balance patch consisted of almost nothing but changes for custom moves, yes?

Basically only one of those changes were relevant, though. Honestly the shieldstun changes had a greater effect on the customs meta then the actual balance changes.

 

[Rizen]

Here's my feelings about non-custom SSB4: This game is incredibly well balanced. Even Ganon is placing in tourneys. As with any fighter, someone has to be last. The low tiers are still decent. If they move someone else will be bottom, like what happened to Ike with the balance patch.

With customs: First, they're really tedious to unlock; I spent almost 100 hours before getting all of them. 2nd they make tourney setup take longer. 3rd I think they'll discourage noobs from rising to the competitive level. Last but not least, they are not balanced but rather throwing powerful exploits at some of the cast. Sure custom moves can be beaten but the meta will revolve more around them than good fundamental play. It's like how planking could be beaten in brawl but it still was a far more safe option for the character who had the lead. Plank and the opponent must put them self at serious risk to approach. It's not fun and the game revolves around it. I think that's what people mean by "Jank" but it's an ambiguous term best avoided.

Like I said earlier, SSB4 is already well balanced and has balance patches. Yeah it sucks for Palutena but somebody has to be low tier. Customs don't break the game but they don't improve balance and have several downsides. IMO the standard rules should have custom moves set to "off" but I'm fine with side events allowing them.

/my 2 cents.

 

[Dinoman96]

We were told to scoot, so here I am...



If that were the case then Jigglypuff would of had heavy buffs by now. She's had nearly nothing.

Sakurai doesn't care about 1v1 viability unless you're too good/braindead. If Palutena had "boring" customs like everybody else she wouldn't of gotten any different buffs then what she's had. I'm sorry, but having different animations doesn't justify Palutena having customs more then anybody else. As it stands she's a fully functional character and works just as well as any other character in the main mode of the game, much like Zelda or Puff or any other character really.



Basically only one of those changes were relevant, though. Honestly the shieldstun changes had a greater effect on the customs meta then the actual balance changes.

Palutena probably would of been a completely different character if it weren't for her custom gimmick. And my overall point is that the patch atleast showed they are willing to change customs.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Rizen I think you're missing a part of the point if you consider customs a player-controlled balancer.

Customs are not, should not, and should never be a statistical "better than" across the board.

Customs are a way to change the character in a way that suits the player.

It's excruciatingly disappointing that any custom moves are "better than" others. And even further that we refuse to explore them in the event that MAYBE WE'RE WRONG about there being undisputed 'better-than-default customs'.

Incidentally, IMO Megaman probably has some of the best customs in the game, because they're so distinctly balanced with one another, and with the defaults.

 

[Rizen]

It's excruciatingly disappointing that any custom moves are "better than" others. And even further that we refuse to explore them in the event that MAYBE WE'RE WRONG about there being undisputed 'better-than-default customs'.

But that's the way it is. Some customs are better and not distributed in a balanced way. We did try out customs at Evo. People there were still against them.

Why "fix" what's not broken? It's like taking a chess game, tossing a handful of rubber bands over the board and saying 'the pieces lucky enough to have a rubber band land around them can also move like a Knight'. Sure some pawns become better but then there's the Queen (and her Luma) getting a rubberband. And the pawns who didn't get them are even worse proportionately. It mixes the game up but a lot of serious players don't like that kind of thing.

 

[Dinoman96]

Also, in regards to Jigglypuff, I was under the impression that it's really the game engine itself that doesn't suit Jigglypuff's playstyle. Stuff like the way shields work and the ledge mechanics. In that sense it's kinda hard to really fix her without just redoing her in general.

 

[ZarroTsu]

It mixes the game up but a lot of serious players don't like that kind of thing.

It sucks that they're more important than the rest of us.

 

[LancerStaff]

Palutena probably would of been a completely different character if it weren't for her custom gimmick. And my overall point is that the patch atleast showed they are willing to change customs.

Don't think so. Without customs she's really her own thing, her customs are nearly useless in FFAs (the undisputed main mode of Smash), and with customs she becomes a mini Sonic with a funky Monado Art.

The thing with Smash is that characters are designed and built for FFAs. If Palutena had JG, SS, and LW as her defaults then she'd of been balanced around them, likewise with RJ, HL, AM, and CF. If, with these specials, she underperformed in FFAs then she would of then be buffed to compensate. But of course she doesn't have these specials... She was design to be played like this. Every character is given a design to work with from the beginning, and Palutena's turtling and stealing KOs design doesn't work in 1v1s. Just how it turned out.

Also, in regards to Jigglypuff, I was under the impression that it's really the game engine itself that doesn't suit Jigglypuff's playstyle. Stuff like the way shields work and the ledge mechanics. In that sense it's kinda hard to really fix her without just redoing her in general.

She's perfectly fine in FFAs, and hasn't been buffed because of it. Some characters just aren't supposed to be good in 1v1s.

 

[Dinoman96]

"The thing with Smash is that characters are designed and built for FFAs."

I've already told you this, but Sakurai said while some characters are indeed balanced for FFAs, some of them are also balanced for 1v1s, FFas with items off, etc. It's not that hard to image that Palutena, basically being the poster character for custom fighters, would be balanced around Customs ON. Her trophy explicitly mentions that "She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter" and her customs, besides the Mii Fighters of course, are the only ones even mentioned in the in-game loading tips. They were seemingly intended to be an important part of her design.

I don't mean to say that she should automatically get special privileges in tourneys just because of all this. I just think it's a bit ignorant to assume she wasn't built around using customs at all.

 

[LancerStaff]

"The thing with Smash is that characters are designed and built for FFAs."

I've already told you this, but Sakurai said while some characters are indeed balanced for FFAs, some of them are also balanced for 1v1s, FFas with items off, etc. It's not that hard to image that Palutena, basically being the poster character for custom fighters, would be balanced around Customs ON. Her trophy explicitly mentions that "She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter" and her customs, besides the Mii Fighters of course, are the only ones even mentioned in the in-game loading tips. They were seemingly intended to be an important part of her design.

I don't mean to say that she should automatically get special privileges in tourneys just because of all this. I just think it's a bit ignorant to assume she wasn't built around using customs at all.

Her customs do jack in FFAs. I really don't think her customs were supposed to be anything more then a quick way to show people how much a character's playstyle changes with custom moves. Honestly, the case for giving Megaman his customs is stronger.

 

[Dinoman96]

Her customs do jack in FFAs. I really don't think her customs were supposed to be anything more then a quick way to show people how much a character's playstyle changes with custom moves. Honestly, the case for giving Megaman his customs is stronger.

What?

Once again, I'm not saying anyone should have customs in a non-custom setting. All I originally even did in the first place was bemoan Sakurai for the way he designed Palutena. I didn't want to 100% blame the community. Maybe I should of worded it better.

Secondly, the fact that Palutena has her customs from the beginning while MM's all have to be unlocked would probably be in her favor if we were to give special privileges to a character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

One argument against customs I'll never understand why people think is important is that some characters don't benefit from them.
Like, 3 or 4 characters don't get overall benefited through their new moves, and like 5 don't get new moves at all.
That's about 9 out of FIFTY. And even then, some of those characters can hold their ground despite not being able to variate as much as others.

 

[LancerStaff]

What?

Once again, I'm not saying anyone should have customs in a non-custom setting. All I originally even did in the first place was bemoan Sakurai for the way he designed Palutena. I didn't want to 100% blame the community. Maybe I should of worded it better.

Secondly, the fact that Palutena has her customs from the beginning while MM's all have to be unlocked would probably be in her favor if we were to give special privileges to a character.

And I'm saying that he didn't design Palutena with customs in mind. More likely he designed Megaman around them... At least he doesn't become a cheap knock-off of another character and they work well in the main mode of Smash.

Again, I find it more likely that she was just chosen to advertise custom moves. Her customs wouldn't be completely outclassed on every front otherwise. If she really was designed around them she'd suck without them instead of getting worse with them. Heck, if she was designed around them there'd of been some kind of distinction between custom moves and equipment somewhere in the base game and not as an afterthought in a highly flawed mode.

 

[san.]

I tried customs out and came to the conclusion that practicing multiple customs is too much if I may or may not be using it (Ike has 4-5 viable customs to use that are around as good as the defaults). That being said, I'm fine with other players taking their preferred loadout, such as the local Ganon and Mega Man mains.

There are very few problematic customs with paralyzing jolt and balloons/exploding balloons receiving nerfs over the past few months. At most, they're pretty borderline in terms of being really good, but there have been enough meta progression in recent months where the general reward from characters have drastically increased.

 

[LancerStaff]

One argument against customs I'll never understand why people think is important is that some characters don't benefit from them.
Like, 3 or 4 characters don't get overall benefited through their new moves, and like 5 don't get new moves at all.
That's about 9 out of FIFTY. And even then, some of those characters can hold their ground despite not being able to variate as much as others.

That's a fifth of the cast, and you're lowballing it. Basically you're telling all the players of those characters to **** off. You understand why people would be against it? Like usual, you're only looking at just one complaint instead of the whole picture.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Well I don't quite understand how customs will get better if we never use customs and don't give Nintendo a better reference for which customs go unused, to be buffed.

Granted it would be super super nice if we could, like, talk to a developer about it and explain the situation like adults, question why certain customs are as they are, why current characters were shafted, and seek a compromise to better the game itself. But I don't think we'd be treated as adults, and it may be reluctantly redundant for a party game for kids to receive serious insight.

Some characters get shafted one way, and some get shafted the other. Nobody wins in either situation. At this point it's a matter of who gives up first, more-so than the logistics or planning or attempt at a compromise.

I've had at least one decent idea to remedy even the complaint that some customs are more OP than others, and that idea is publicized, named sets. Sets tested extensively by the community to not be better than the default, but to offer a proper logistical shift in the way you play the character, as I'm sure customs were intended.

Would every character achieve even this? If there were no way to compromise Kong Cyclone? If there were no way to compromise Trip Sapling? Well that would suck, but we wouldn't know until we got there. Nobody seems to want to try one method over another, though. We so desperately want to be the forefront of the game's meta, that fun itself stops mattering.

If some characters get more than others, then we find a compromise. If some characters get so much less that they're literally unplayable, then maybe we should tell someone important to fix it.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Hey, just to clarify something, does anyone here hold the view that Miis shouldn't be legal unless customs are? Or, as a friend of mine put it, "holding miis hostage for the sake of custom moves"? My personal view is that Miis should always be legal with all their moves available, but if we're not using customs then we shouldn't bother with Mii size variations and just use guest miis for the sake of simplicity.

 

[Raijinken]

That's a fifth of the cast, and you're lowballing it. Basically you're telling all the players of those characters to **** off. You understand why people would be against it? Like usual, you're only looking at just one complaint instead of the whole picture.

You consistently highball the characters who have zero reason to use customs.
The four who have none.
And that's it. Every single other character has at least one custom which will benefit them in some instance more than their default. And having that option, in my opinion and very clearly not yours, makes it worth running them.

Hey, just to clarify something, does anyone here hold the view that Miis shouldn't be legal unless customs are? Or, as a friend of mine put it, "holding miis hostage for the sake of custom moves"? My personal view is that Miis should always be legal with all their moves available, but if we're not using customs then we shouldn't bother with Mii size variations and just use guest miis for the sake of simplicity.

I have a hard time taking people who don't run customs for anything short of masterfully bad logistics reasons seriously, and anyone who doesn't run Miis with full movesets (regardless of size, I don't personally care on that regard), is impossible to take seriously when discussing a ruleset.

More to the point, I think we should only use Guest Miis for the sake of in-game setup parity. But there's no valid argument against them, period.

 

[LancerStaff]

You consistently highball the characters who have zero reason to use customs.
The four who have none.
And that's it. Every single other character has at least one custom which will benefit them in some instance more than their default. And having that option, in my opinion and very clearly not yours, makes it worth running them.

Pheheh. Tell that to the Zelda mains. You'll get laughed off of Smashboards.