What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Ansou]

The argument that I've been hearing the most lately is just that "most people don't want them"... Now I wouldn't say that the poll in this thread is necessarily accurate, but using the opposite as an argument doesn't sound very good when there is not much to back it up with. I don't really like using polls to decide on rulesets, but doing a new poll could at least clear that up... It feels pretty bad that I'm not allowed to use my main because people simply dislike it or don't want to test another meta.

 

[Raijinken]

The argument that I've been hearing the most lately is just that "most people don't want them"... Now I wouldn't say that the poll in this thread is necessarily accurate, but using the opposite as an argument doesn't sound very good when there is not much to back it up with. I don't really like using polls to decide on rulesets, but doing a new poll could at least clear that up... It feels pretty bad that I'm not allowed to use my main because people simply dislike it or don't want to test another meta.

Any poll's "scientific" validity is strongly reduced by selection bias, and there is almost no way to remove it.

I could poll my group of players and get a 90% pro-customs 100% pro-miis response (in addition to a supermajority or 100% favor to ban Sheik, Rosalina, Olimar, and Diddy, thereby making the game more enjoyable for all involved). I could poll top players and see widely different results. I could poll Reddit and see good arguments get downvoted for being contrary to the status quo. I could poll 4chan and have 60% troll votes.

Even if you "only poll the paying competitors" since "they're the only ones who count," you pointedly omit everyone who either cannot compete (for whatever life circumstance including geography, finance, or physical disability/dependence upon others including parents of younger players), as well as those who simply disagree with existing rulesests and won't compete in a ruleset they don't like (this is somehow seen as "acceptable" for people raging and quitting over MLG's ruleset bans on Pro Controllers and allowance of Miis, yet the NC discussion group mods began deleting and admonishing posters of posts relating to custom moves or Miis).

The only fair and accurate solution is to offer both metas. If one of them literally gets no (not little) interest or attendance, cut it. Trial run every so often, as interests change over time. That is the only way any given region/TO can get a realistic picture of their event and playerbase. Less bandwagoning off the majors, more catering to the players.

But no. TOs are too "pressed for time" or "don't have enough setups" or "not enough interest" or "just don't find it fun" to run both metas. So they cut the one they dislike, for no objectively relevant reason, and alienate part of what could be their playerbase.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like customs benefit the lower tiers a lot more than the high tiers, and create a much wider variety of characters that are viable. Characters like Donkey Kong, Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, miis, and Palutena who are all low tiers get a significant boost from customs and become viable, which makes your average match a lot more entertaining to play and to watch, since you will play a very wide variety of characters and tactics rather than having most of your matches being identical, fighting high tiers who are using combos that have been popular for a long time. Customs give most characters a chance in serious competition, and I support that!

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I get sad every time commentators in a major hate on customs. It happened in TBH5 and I wanted to go in there and defend customs. *sigh*
On the topic of unlocking customs easier, it'd be really great if the method was changed so that if you beat Classic with a character you got their 2222s unlocked, and beating all star got the 3333s. That's easy to understand, still requires some work, and we'd expect everyone in the scene to have done this by now. Alas.

 

[Raijinken]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like customs benefit the lower tiers a lot more than the high tiers, and create a much wider variety of characters that are viable. Characters like Donkey Kong, Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, miis, and Palutena who are all low tiers get a significant boost from customs and become viable, which makes your average match a lot more entertaining to play and to watch, since you will play a very wide variety of characters and tactics rather than having most of your matches being identical, fighting high tiers who are using combos that have been popular for a long time. Customs give most characters a chance in serious competition, and I support that!

You are awesome and correct on all accounts and welcome to the thread!

I get sad every time commentators in a major hate on customs. It happened in TBH5 and I wanted to go in there and defend customs. *sigh*
On the topic of unlocking customs easier, it'd be really great if the method was changed so that if you beat Classic with a character you got their 2222s unlocked, and beating all star got the 3333s. That's easy to understand, still requires some work, and we'd expect everyone in the scene to have done this by now. Alas.

You'd probably be surprised and disappointed in how many pros have probably only touched single player enough to get Smashville.

Seriously, the number that won't even let their system idle to unlock Pac-Land for Random Stage Select is disgusting.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

You are awesome and correct on all accounts and welcome to the thread!


You'd probably be surprised and disappointed in how many pros have probably only touched single player enough to get Smashville.

Seriously, the number that won't even let their system idle to unlock Pac-Land for Random Stage Select is disgusting.

Those setups are probably bought by majors and aren't actually owned by anybody. The remainder make up a small minority. Every SSB player I personally know at least completed classic and all star with everybody to get a feel for the characters and for the challenge

 

[Xeze]

You know what would make this easier? Being able to share customized characters online, just like you are able to do with Miis. So even if someone didn't have all customs unlocked, they could simply look for a specific set online or ask someone from their friendlist if they have it.

 

[Raijinken]

You know what would make this easier? Being able to share customized characters online, just like you are able to do with Miis. So even if someone didn't have all customs unlocked, they could simply look for a specific set online or ask someone from their friendlist if they have it.

Kinda defeats the point of them being unlockables, but then again, I think most agree they shouldn't have been unlockables to begin with.

 

[Xeze]

Kinda defeats the point of them being unlockables, but then again, I think most agree they shouldn't have been unlockables to begin with.

You wouldn't be able to change any customized character received via online, just like when you transfer one from a 3DS to a Wii U. To complete the challenge you'd still have to unlock every custom move.

 

[Raijinken]

You wouldn't be able to change any customized character received via online, just like when you transfer one from a 3DS to a Wii U. To complete the challenge you'd still have to unlock every custom move.

Most people (myself excluded) would be entirely fine with that, though.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Most people (myself excluded) would be entirely fine with that, though.

And the people who wouldn't be fine with that are probably the people who've already unlocked every custom move, like you or me. In fact, we'd probably be the people sending these sets online. And of course, part of the point is to get these sets onto Tournament setups, not just on personal use setups.

 

[Raijinken]

And the people who wouldn't be fine with that are probably the people who've already unlocked every custom move, like you or me. In fact, we'd probably be the people sending these sets online. And of course, part of the point is to get these sets onto Tournament setups, not just on personal use setups.

Would be doable. Much like transferring custom stages (another cool idea that will never take competitive root), just designate a system to add every tournament setup as a friend, and send the movesets/stages/whatevers to them. Guarantees parity and removes the need for a 3DS.

If that were the case.

 

[Raijinken]

Now that MLG's over, how'd the Mii Customs thing work out? Anything noteworthy?

 

[Rashyboy05]

Now that MLG's over, how'd the Mii Customs thing work out? Anything noteworthy?

Wait...Oh no...a vision...
"MLG has proven that Mii customization is totally fine."pic.twitter.com/EBw9Ag4ZUm

— 🦔 • ODG | Ace★ (@AceStarThe3rd) October 19, 2015

Mind you, he's still very much against miis and is just making fun of Mii liberalists.

I think Miis are very fine, really. I still don't see why we should strip Mii mains away from their fun.

 

[Ansou]

Well... Maybe because it is totally fine? Unless it actually proved the opposite.

 

[SoniCraft]

Wait...Oh no...a vision...
"MLG has proven that Mii customization is totally fine."pic.twitter.com/EBw9Ag4ZUm

— 🦔 • ODG | Ace★ (@AceStarThe3rd) October 19, 2015

Mind you, he's still very much against miis and is just making fun of Mii liberalists.

I think Miis are very fine, really. I still don't see why we should strip Mii mains away from their fun.

What problem(s) does Ace have with Miis?

 

[Raijinken]

What problem(s) does Ace have with Miis?

He probably doesn't find them fun.
Makes me glad I've never heard of him.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

In one of his Undefeatable eps, he strongly complained about how Brawler's Up 2 KOs WAAAY too soon for his own liking. I forgot which Ep for which Character it was when he said this, but I can at least guess that Brawler's the 1 Mii type he despises the most, with Up 2 likely being the #1 reason of his hatred for him/her. I don't recall him ever saying anything about Gunner or Swordfighter in any of his YT vids or his live-streams at Twitch that I do show up to, so I'm not sure what his stance is on those two, specifically.

 

[Rashyboy05]

What problem(s) does Ace have with Miis?

Its more of him complaining about Brawler's Heli Kick than the Miis themselves acually. Every time there is an announcement about the Miis, the first thing he complains about is how early Heli Kick kills on Twitter and, as what Splooshi Splashy says, on one of his "Undefeatable" episodes.

 

[Raijinken]

In one of his Undefeatable eps, he strongly complained about how Brawler's Up 2 KOs WAAAY too soon for his own liking. I forgot which Ep for which Character it was when he said this, but I can at least guess that Brawler's the 1 Mii type he despises the most, with Up 2 likely being the #1 reason of his hatred for him/her. I don't recall him ever saying anything about Gunner or Swordfighter in any of his YT vids or his live-streams at Twitch that I do show up to, so I'm not sure what his stance is on those two, specifically.

It's hard to complain about mediocre characters to an informed crowd without coming off as a whiner.

 

[[Deuce]]

The only unfortunate circumstance for customs is that all the DLC characters don't get customs otherwise I'd still be fighting for it a lot more. Allowing customs would've solved the whole mii issue too. Even the whole problem with custom selection alienating foreign regions could be alleviated by polling different regions

 

[ぱみゅ]

While it's unfortunate that DLC characters don't get Customs (though they tried to, as proved by those Mewtwo videos), I do not see how that is an argument against them.

 

[[Deuce]]

We would be introducing a game feature that isn't equally applied to all characters.

 

[Pyr]

I try to stay out of the custom discussions because I tend to be assholish when I do get into them, but I will say this in regards to DLCs not receiving customs. I see it like that one guy in Persona 4 that doesn't have a persona (or whatever the other half of their moveset is called and isn't the standards). That character still works because he is given the tools to be a (really fun) character through what the Persona buttons do for him instead. Or Tager lacking a run in Blazblue. He makes it up in other areas and is a good, or a bad, character depending on which release you're playing.

Point is that, of Mewtwo, Lucas, Ryu, and Roy, in order for the "they don't get customs" argument to really matter, you've got to ask "what would I replace?"

Mewtwo
Neutral B, Side B, and Up-B are all kind of as good as you can get for what they are. Side-B specifically lacks the major weakness that would normally get it replaced: it's useful in all matchups. It's duel property of being a command grab AND a reflector means it will always be useful regardless of if the opponent has a projectile of their own. Down-B is quite possibly the best hard punish move in the game because of what it lets you do when it lands. Kind of hard to really improve on the base concept.

Lucas
Neutral-B is basically like Ness's, only better range and a different effect. It's really the only thing I can think of in his kit that would be interchangeable. Side-B is really good for what it does, Up-B is insane at chasing opponents and the recovery itself goes so far that any other up-B would be a recovery range nerf. Down-B, like Mewtwo's Side-B, is strong. It hits really hard and at a fantastic angle. It leads to decent use in all matchups.

Ryu
Neutral B can be fast, slow, long range, short range, MULTIHIT, all with the single move. It, in and of itself, is all 3 likely customs in 1. Same goes for Side-B. Distance? Power? You get that already and control it already. Up-B distance (and subsequent fall time/end lag after the hitbox disappears) is all up to you. In fact, the only move that doesn't let him do this is Down-B. Wait... Because you can release it at any time, you can control how fast it is, how strong it is, and it's properties. Only other thing they could add is more then 1 hit absorption, but that is against the spirit of the move itself, so I doubt Nintendo would go that route.

He already has all 3 customs in all his moves. Lol.

Roy
You've got a case here because Neutral B can be exchanged with a less "extreme" move had customs existed. Up-B could of been a further, but no damage and a less far, but more damage version. (That said you can adjust the angle/height when doing it). Side-B... Let's face it. He'd get the same as Marth, and everyone would use custom 1. And Down-B could of been a slower, more powerful and a faster, hits them behind you type.

All that said, are his specials, right now, bad? Neutral B has 0 end lag, Side-B racks damage faster then I can say "for **** sake that just did 18% to me," Up-B has armor when done on the ground and kills decently (making it good OOS), and Down-B is... Well, a counter. Do they not fit his general matchup spread? Are they really not "general purpose?"

No. I think the developer intention was clear: DLC doesn't get customs. I also think it's clear that they went the "all in 1, general purpose" level of good for all of their specials.

Save for Ryu, who gets all 3 custom sets at the same time because I love this character.


So, ya. In order for the "they don't get customs" argument to have weight, you have to consider what you'd replace and why. The trend with current customs is very clear, so it's not hard to make semi-accurate assumptions of what replacements would be. Looking at the special kits, I think that it works over all matchups enough for them to not be at a general disadvantage for not having the options.

 

[Raijinken]

Lucas would get Ness moves, and maybe one unique per slot. Roy would get Marth moves, and maybe one unique per slot, MAYBE. The other two leave more room for speculation.

 

[Wintropy]

We would be introducing a game feature that isn't equally applied to all characters.

I know where you're coming from, I'm just teasing.

I think that's a fair rebuttal, but I don't think it justifies the ban. Banning customs for 50+ characters because four (at time of writing) characters don't have them is extreme.

You can debate it that DLC characters have "unfair tier placement potential" because their matchups, in theory, won't improve in the same way that other characters' potentially might - but that's a hypothetical. I think it's equally unfair to reject others' potential because it doesn't offer the same hypothetical benefit to a very small handful of characters.

Dedede and Palutena don't have the potential to grow to high-tier while Sheik and ZSS exist, because Sheik and ZSS have better and more diverse options than them. They're naturally at a disadvantage because of that. We don't ban Sheik and ZSS because that would be defining the meta based on a few weaker characters. That isn't balance, that's johning.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you, Deuce, this is a rhetorical statement. We cool~

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Custom moves are honestly something I think could be really healthy for the Smash meta, as it expands the number of viable tourney-viable characters by a decent amount.

I mean, let's look at the number of tourney-viable characters currently;
,,,,,,,,,,,,,/,,,,,,/.


That's a good amount, but adding customs also adds more characters;
,,,,,,,,,,,,,/,,,,,,/, , , , , .

So I honestly do think customs could be much better overall for the meta since it'll allow a more variable roster. Banning all customs because the 1% of characters don't have them is absolutely ludicrous. Either we let everybody have custom moves or nobody should get them; this little loophole of "only Palutena and the Miis should have customs, everyone else can't have them" is just ridiculous, as it makes those two out as "special".

It's not like customs really even affect who's top-tier anyways; all it does is make some of the mid-tiers tourney-viable.. Shiek is still queen of the tiers even with customs on. The meta itself is basically unchanged aside from people needing to learn some more MU's.

 

[Wintropy]

Either we let everybody have custom moves or nobody should get them; this little loophole of "only Palutena and the Miis should have customs, everyone else can't have them" is just ridiculous, as it makes those two out as "special".

I don't agree with this. This isn't a case of "everybody's equal or nobody's equal"; this is a case of Mii Fighters being designed with custom moves in mind, which will be enabled even when the game has customs toggled off. That in itself means Mii Fighter is, for better or worse, the exception.

Even so, I'd rather some characters get customs than nobody. Even if I can't play custom Palutena, why should I begrudge my friend who mains custom Brawler in tourneys?

 

[Raijinken]

The sole reason I give Miis an "exception" is because I would GLADLY take giving anyone moveset variety over nobody. Obviously, such exceptions shouldn't exist, and the rule should be that every character is given full moveset choice, or to such an extent that feasible tournament logistics will allow.

Metaphor:
If you tell me I can either take a slice of cake or no cake at all, then I will take my slice of cake and watch angrily as the rest gets thrown away.
But if you tell me I can't have any cake because you and some of your friends and some famous person don't like Lemon Pound Cake and that's what flavor cake it is, then I'm going to call you insane and take the whole cake for my friends and I to share.
End of metaphor.

DLC characters have access to 100% of their available moveset. Miis do as well. While it is wholly unfortunate that 100% of Roy's moveset is not quite as large as 100% of Marth's moveset, and neither is as large as 100% of Ryu's moveset, that is functionally no different from Samus not having the tools for success her less-armored self does.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I try to stay out of the custom discussions because I tend to be assholish when I do get into them, but I will say this in regards to DLCs not receiving customs. I see it like that one guy in Persona 4 that doesn't have a persona (or whatever the other half of their moveset is called and isn't the standards). That character still works because he is given the tools to be a (really fun) character through what the Persona buttons do for him instead. Or Tager lacking a run in Blazblue. He makes it up in other areas and is a good, or a bad, character depending on which release you're playing.

Point is that, of Mewtwo, Lucas, Ryu, and Roy, in order for the "they don't get customs" argument to really matter, you've got to ask "what would I replace?"

Mewtwo
Neutral B, Side B, and Up-B are all kind of as good as you can get for what they are. Side-B specifically lacks the major weakness that would normally get it replaced: it's useful in all matchups. It's duel property of being a command grab AND a reflector means it will always be useful regardless of if the opponent has a projectile of their own. Down-B is quite possibly the best hard punish move in the game because of what it lets you do when it lands. Kind of hard to really improve on the base concept.

Lucas
Neutral-B is basically like Ness's, only better range and a different effect. It's really the only thing I can think of in his kit that would be interchangeable. Side-B is really good for what it does, Up-B is insane at chasing opponents and the recovery itself goes so far that any other up-B would be a recovery range nerf. Down-B, like Mewtwo's Side-B, is strong. It hits really hard and at a fantastic angle. It leads to decent use in all matchups.

Ryu
Neutral B can be fast, slow, long range, short range, MULTIHIT, all with the single move. It, in and of itself, is all 3 likely customs in 1. Same goes for Side-B. Distance? Power? You get that already and control it already. Up-B distance (and subsequent fall time/end lag after the hitbox disappears) is all up to you. In fact, the only move that doesn't let him do this is Down-B. Wait... Because you can release it at any time, you can control how fast it is, how strong it is, and it's properties. Only other thing they could add is more then 1 hit absorption, but that is against the spirit of the move itself, so I doubt Nintendo would go that route.

He already has all 3 customs in all his moves. Lol.

Roy
You've got a case here because Neutral B can be exchanged with a less "extreme" move had customs existed. Up-B could of been a further, but no damage and a less far, but more damage version. (That said you can adjust the angle/height when doing it). Side-B... Let's face it. He'd get the same as Marth, and everyone would use custom 1. And Down-B could of been a slower, more powerful and a faster, hits them behind you type.

All that said, are his specials, right now, bad? Neutral B has 0 end lag, Side-B racks damage faster then I can say "for **** sake that just did 18% to me," Up-B has armor when done on the ground and kills decently (making it good OOS), and Down-B is... Well, a counter. Do they not fit his general matchup spread? Are they really not "general purpose?"

No. I think the developer intention was clear: DLC doesn't get customs. I also think it's clear that they went the "all in 1, general purpose" level of good for all of their specials.

Save for Ryu, who gets all 3 custom sets at the same time because I love this character.


So, ya. In order for the "they don't get customs" argument to have weight, you have to consider what you'd replace and why. The trend with current customs is very clear, so it's not hard to make semi-accurate assumptions of what replacements would be. Looking at the special kits, I think that it works over all matchups enough for them to not be at a general disadvantage for not having the options.

Are we talking about potential customs for DLC characters? Hoo boy.

Two out of Mewtwo's four specials are, well, kinda crap. Confusion isn't even safe on hit. Multiple times I've used confusion and then gotten hit back for more damage than I dealt. A potential fix would be something called Psychic, a command grab that launches opponents and does 12% instead of 9%. In exchange, perhaps we'd increase the endlag of the move by a few frames, have it not give Mewtwo a boost in midair, and have it deflect projectiles like in Melee instead of reflect them. This would give Mewtwo another potential KO move, and more importantly, an actually good command grab that's actually safe on hit.

Disable's also pretty bad. You have to be facing your opponent and right in front of them for it to work, hindering its general utility. A good custom for it might be Astonish, which would have slightly increased range, remove the "must be facing mewtwo" requirement, deal no damage, and trip the opponent rather than stun them. You could get some neat tech chases out of that.

Finally, Teleport's a good move but it could be improved vastly if Mewtwo had customs. Teleport Attack would be slower and maybe would have recovery limitations but would have a hitbox upon teleporting out and back in. And imagine, say, Swift Teleport, a move that would decrease distance traveled, but would have no endlag or landing lag and not put Mewtwo into a helpless state, instead putting him in that state that Sonic or Megaman enter after using their recoveries. Basically, a weaker version of the spirit of Mewtwo's Project M up-B.

As for Roy, there could be some utility in giving him variants of Flare Blade that, say, act like Shield Breaker or Giant Punch. Or a version of Double-Edge dance called Double-Edge Dash, which would be like Effortless Blade except Roy dashes forward with each swing and carries his opponent with him until the last hit. It would aid his recovery, be potentially safer on shield, and carry his opponent closer to the edge for the final hit.

IDK enough about Lucas to prescribe customs for him, and Ryu shouldn't get any because he already has more moves than anyone else in the cast. I mean I still agree with you that customs should be legal even if DLC characters don't get them, but they would almost certainly benefit from gaining them.

 

[Rinku リンク]

It'll definitively add a different dynamic and edge to the game which I think is a good thing.

 

[[Deuce]]

The thing about consideration for what moves to replace for the DLC characters is the problem that we currently have an incomplete pool of information. Unlike the release roster, we don't actually know what could've been potential customs for the DLC characters.

Granted, there is some room for guesswork considering there are 2 "clones" in the mix, but even then characters like fox/falco, falcon/dorf do have material differences between some of their customs; we can't automatically assume they would have a carbon copy of the original's moves.

It may have been possible to encounter another move that is flat out superior to the other ones such as Wind Kong, or another case where a combination of specials enables a strong tactic as with villager. Who knows? As it is, we don't.

I know where you're coming from, I'm just teasing.

I think that's a fair rebuttal, but I don't think it justifies the ban. Banning customs for 50+ characters because four (at time of writing) characters don't have them is extreme.

You can debate it that DLC characters have "unfair tier placement potential" because their matchups, in theory, won't improve in the same way that other characters' potentially might - but that's a hypothetical. I think it's equally unfair to reject others' potential because it doesn't offer the same hypothetical benefit to a very small handful of characters.

Dedede and Palutena don't have the potential to grow to high-tier while Sheik and ZSS exist, because Sheik and ZSS have better and more diverse options than them. They're naturally at a disadvantage because of that. We don't ban Sheik and ZSS because that would be defining the meta based on a few weaker characters. That isn't balance, that's johning.

EDIT: This isn't directed at you, Deuce, this is a rhetorical statement. We cool~

All good. It is a bit extreme, but I'm personally not explicitly for banning customs; I'm just indifferent whereas previously I felt much more compelled to argue on the pro side.

On that Ryu note, I think its notable that Ryu's "moveset imbalance" comes packaged like that from the devs, unchangeable (just like mac's KO, or wario's waft etc), whereas what we're proposing is a community-led injection of balance which I wouldn't really term unfair, but rather, incomplete... and possibly arbitrary. This is probably my main sticking point, since a scene can grow organically to adapt as we can see the rise of Ike players as of late, as opposed to forced balancing (I was heavily against the MK ban in brawl)

While it is wholly unfortunate that 100% of Roy's moveset is not quite as large as 100% of Marth's moveset, and neither is as large as 100% of Ryu's moveset, that is functionally no different from Samus not having the tools for success her less-armored self does.

I do like this last sentence.

 

[Raijinken]

On that Ryu note, I think its notable that Ryu's "moveset imbalance" comes packaged like that from the devs, unchangeable (just like mac's KO, or wario's waft etc), whereas what we're proposing is a community-led injection of balance which I wouldn't really term unfair, but rather, incomplete... and possibly arbitrary. This is probably my main sticking point, since a scene can grow organically to adapt as we can see the rise of Ike players as of late, as opposed to forced balancing (I was heavily against the MK ban in brawl)

It's worth noting that adding custom moves freely would be less "community injected balance" and more "community injected freedom of moveset access", which is pretty different. It's quite distinct from picking each character's "best" or "most balanced" moveset and forcing it (for instance, forcing Sheik into Gale to make up for how stupid good everything else is). While currently logistics at big events necessitates things like the Moveset Project, no pro-customs player I know really wants to use it to force anyone into any given set, we just want to be able to pick our preferred (or best, as the case may be) moves, since Sakurai didn't do it for us.

 

[[Deuce]]

It's worth noting that adding custom moves freely would be less "community injected balance" and more "community injected freedom of moveset access", which is pretty different. It's quite distinct from picking each character's "best" or "most balanced" moveset and forcing it (for instance, forcing Sheik into Gale to make up for how stupid good everything else is). While currently logistics at big events necessitates things like the Moveset Project, no pro-customs player I know really wants to use it to force anyone into any given set, we just want to be able to pick our preferred (or best, as the case may be) moves, since Sakurai didn't do it for us.

If it was purely this case, I'd agree. I was in support of an all customs available environment, but many wanted to concede some points such as banning hammer spin dash, wind kong, villager etc, to the anti-customs argument and at that point is where it begins to become more like I originally described, which is a more arbitrary form of balancing that is community-led.

 

[Raijinken]

If it was purely this case, I'd agree. I was in support of an all customs available environment, but many wanted to concede some points such as banning hammer spin dash, wind kong, villager etc, to the anti-customs argument and at that point is where it begins to become more like I originally described, which is a more arbitrary form of balancing that is community-led.

Yea, that's what happens when we try to answer subjective complaints and innate ruleset deficiencies (simplicity of stalling, inability to handle windboxes) in order to try to get people to accept something they simply aren't interested in.

 

[ToadsterOven]

Honestly this whole "wahhh customs R jank" and "1111 Miis" crap has to stop NOW. Don't like customs? Too bad too sad, plenty of people do and would like to use them in more tournaments but can't because of Zero or whatever big Brawl turned sm4sh player opening their mouths to whine about customs being "jank" when really, they don't have any room to talk about jank coming from a game that had the most janky ass mechanic in all of fighting game history.

TRIPPING!

As a result, Zero or whomever's sheeple fans follow whatever their false god says without question and that's infuriating to people like me who want to see customs used more in the competitive community but keep getting shot down by what's essentially a group of professional... crybabies for want of a better word throwing or threatening to throw an immature temper tantrum about it on Twitter or Reddit.

i.e When Zero whined about custom Mii's being allowed at MLG New Orleans recently. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but custom Mii's were allowed at the recent MLG event right?) The way I see it, we start using customs of our own free will at tournaments both big and small to spite the anti customs crowd. IF the TO tries to get on our case about it, we stand up to him/her, look them dead in the eyes, and tell them (politely) it's not their position any longer to tell us what we can and can't do with customs. Simple as that. If you get banned from said tournament, feel free to tell your story on the smash bros reddit. TO's live and die on reputation. Enough people complain about anti customs rules, we may see some TO's start being pro customs.

In other words, think of how the minority crowd throughout history broke stupid laws they knew were asinine until the government stepped in and make X legal. X being civil rights, gay marriage being legalized, etc. The more we use customs to spite the anti customs crowd, the more people will want to see them used more as a whole and before long, even someone as stubborn as Zero will have no choice but to give in and maybe make some positive custom moves videos. From there with all the exposure, customs will become a regular thing and we won't have to put up with stubborn people who don't want them They can go take a hike if they don't like it. lol

Honestly, every anti customs argument I've seen can easily and I mean easily be refuted.

1. Customs are jank/fraud: You automatically lost said argument for repeating Zero's and other sm4sh players piss poor choice of words in thier faulty anti customs argument. Move along please. The ones that might give some players trouble like DK's tornado custom or some of Villager's customs were usually proven to be nowhere near as bad as top players made them out to be. Part of any fighting game is learning to adapt to your opponent and find ways around any tricks they have up their sleeves as best you can. Can't do that, competitive play is probably NOT for you.

2. DLC Characters don't have them so it wouldn't be fair: *ahem* this summer's EVO proved that you don't need to play a customs character to beat a character using them.

3. Customs take too long to set up: No they don't actually. It can easily be done the night before a tournament or even that morning. Power saves with all customs unlocked come in handy in this case.

4. Customs take too long to pick: Know what else takes what can sometimes feel like eternity? Stage picking/striking and that goes for all smash games, not just 4. With how long it takes to pick a damn stage sometimes especially in high level play, there's no excuse why pro customs can't take a minute to choose their loadout between matches what with up to 10 customs slots being saved at any time.

5. Customs take too long to unlock/is a pain in the ass: Not going to lie, its ****ing ******** how you can easily get the SAME MOVES over and over sometimes when playing Classic/Smash Run. Other than that, the games been out for over a year, so if you don't even have half of all of them by now, I don't know what to say to you at this point. As the game moves forward and more and more people pick up either version of it, its probably going to be a given that more people will have at least half of all custom moves unlocked at the very least than people who don't so if your still trying to use that argument by that time...again, I don't know what to say to you. :/

6. Japan/Europe doesn't use them: Too bad for them, but if they expect to start winning or placing well in tournaments here that use customs as the default option or allow them in general, they had best start incorporating them into their regimen. That's all I've got to say. Also read point 1.

There's no good reason anymore not to make customs a regular thing in mine and several other peoples opinions. Ignore the pros who keep crying about them. (Heck, start chastising them more every time they throw a fit about customs on Twitter/Reddit until they realize it would be probably be better for them to start being for customs)

tl;dr STILL don't want customs? Sorry, but us pro customs peeps are sick and tired of you anti's being the vocal ones in our community and some of us probably wish your kind would leave if you don't like customs that much. We're not saying you ALWAYS have to do customs on, but at least be prepared if someone whips out a customs Rosalina for example at your next tournament. (who plays much more aggressively last I checked with customs on)

Also, feel free to use any of my points next time someone on social media is spouting tired anti customs arguments

Of course, this is just my thoughts on customs as a whole. Don't think this is somehow fact even though I make (I feel) some good points about being pro-customs.

 

[Wintropy]

I had a discussion with somebody re: Mii customs and Palutena's customs. Now before I go on, bear in mind that our scene recently agreed that Miis can use their own customs if they want to, but Palutena and other characters can't.

I won't get into the technicalities of our discussion, but what it came down to is this:

"I don't enjoy customs, ergo I don't think they're valid options."

When pressed to expand on this opinion, he said that he believes Palutena is a "pre-defined character", whereas Miis aren't. Therefore, he reckons, it's okay that Miis can use customs but Palutena can't. This in spite of me explaining that there's no valid reason why Palutena is the exception except for the fact that you can't play with her customs in customs-off, which I interpret to mean that customs will be defined based on the way the menu selection is designed.

I need to specify that this person claims that he, in his own words, "doesn't give a ****". He evidently gives enough of a **** to blackball customs, but I know when I'm not getting anything worthwhile out of him.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Hey ToadsterOven , I appreciate your points and agree with most of them, but please be more careful with the way you word it, take this as a reminder. (:

For what is worth, I allowed Palutena and the Miis' Customs for the latest tournament I held.
As expected, nothing happened.
I guess I'll keep that rule until the community is ready for full customs. I will do my best to help them providing the Custom Moveset Project Sets, but we might want to wait until the project is updated.

 

[Jenna Zant]

I still don't care either way.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Ryu
[...]
He already has all 3 customs in all his moves. Lol.

I know this is blatantly off-topic, but I've wanted to jot this down somewhere, may as well be here.

If I were to give Ryu custom moves, I'd go the "Sonic's crappy spindash alt" route, and make the custom moves a way of changing how the player handles the character.

For example,

Hadoken 2: "Can only be true-performed using the B button. A button will not work."

Hadoken 3: "Can only be true-performed using the A button. B button will not work."


And that'd be it. No change in speed or damage or whatever, just a control change. In Ryu's case, this would be insanely useful; Ryu 2222 would completely avoid accidental control flubs when trying to use regular A moves with more frantic inputs. Any combination of 2's and 3's would be incredibly useful for precise input styles, based on player preference.

And, it would actually give an extremely strong reason to use Ryu in customs, without customs-off being entirely compromising. My two cents.