What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Omegascizor456]

If you have just practised a little bit against those moves and know how to handle them, they really shouldn't be getting free wins. If you know how to handle them and still lose, that's probably because your opponent is more skilled than you which is a good thing.

eh i dont see someone camping on the ledge outplaying me but... thats just my opinion :/

 

[Raijinken]

eh i dont see someone camping on the ledge outplaying me but... thats just my opinion :/

From a practical stance, I agree with you fully, and that's why my own rulesets don't use percent tiebreakers that encourage that sort of gameplay.

From the current rules stance, if you can't approach, are unwilling to take a spike trade to kill him around 40, and just keep taking percent, well, you are being outplayed. Just like a Sonic running away from you for days is outplaying you.

Honestly, losing isn't about being outplayed. It's about your opponent utilizing the rules better. That just happens to result in you being "outplayed" by most opinions in most cases.

 

[Ansou]

First point I understand, counter picking should have stuck to picking the character and the set at the same time. I kinda think counterpicking sets KILLS certain characters like the DLC guys and little mac (windboxes). EVO did a lot of things wrong and I believe that was one of them.

Well that's only if you think that the only reason to implement customs is to make characters more viable. As I see it, customization gives the player a possibility to make different choices in different situations. If I'm playing against Olimar, of course I would like to use default Hammer Flip as Kirby as it makes my Pikmins better. Not allowing options such as that just takes away potential from the characters. It's a shame that DLC characters don't have customs though and it makes me a bit sad.

eh i dont see someone camping on the ledge outplaying me but... thats just my opinion :/

If your opponent can successfully camp on the ledge without being punished for regrabbing it, then you are indeed being outplayed. Trading strong attacks (like D-Smashes or spikes) for a little bit of balloon damage is a good thing. Try it!

 

[Ansou]

I'm just gonna roll with whatever competitive players are doing.

That's completely fine. But just be aware of the fact that not all competitive players are doing the same.

 

[Omegascizor456]

That's completely fine. But just be aware of the fact that not all competitive players are doing the same.

its a very one sided topic in the smash 4 community, honestly theres barely any middle :/

 

[Raijinken]

its a very one sided topic in the smash 4 community, honestly theres barely any middle :/

Most middlings get lumped in with "Anti-customs" since that's the general trend of things. If they don't feel strongly enough to argue for them, then there's no reason to count them against the current status-quo.

 

[NightKev]

Just making a proclamation that my reasons are invalid without demonstrating how is missing the mark - logic doesn't work that way: any claim must be backed up.
Please demonstrate your claim of invalidity - are my premises false or are they true but leading to a false conclusion?

First point was a question for clarification because the quoted statement seems to be false, second one I don't understand how it's relevant at all (so I guess also a question for clarification sorta), third I point out how that statement is false, and fourth I point out how that is false again.

Also, please do not use quotation marks unless you are... you know, actually quoting someone. Otherwise it could be seen as being dishonest trying to create an illusion that the person you are communicating with is saying something wrong when that does not reflect reality.

The quotes are literally exact quotes from your post (the larger excerpt being at the top of the post in the quote box) so once again YOU are the one being dishonest and/or absolutely incapable of reading.

Again, I will simply state that dismissing very real issues that people have with customs like they are non-issues will never resolve anything between the two sides. I am not saying you have to agree with these opinions, but I will stress how important it is to recognize these issues do exist and that just waiting for the other side to magically start agreeing with every opinion you have may not be the best strategy.

So then ****ing respond to my post instead of DISMISSING it like you claim I'm doing.

I look to resolve issues and find a happy middleground.

No you ****ing don't that is an abject lie as you continue to demonstrate again and again. Politicians have nothing on you.

 

[T0MMY]

So then ****ing respond to my post instead of DISMISSING it like you claim I'm doing.

No you ****ing don't that is an abject lie as you continue to demonstrate again and again. Politicians have nothing on you.

Sorry, I think I posted a response intended for another thread to yours. I will review and respond accordingly.
However, whether this is true or not you have reduced your argument to ad hominems and seem to have let emotion overcome the conversation instead of staying respectful.
I'll edit this post with an update on the response, until then please do not reduce the conversation to playground name-calling less a mod comes this way and reminds you in their usual manner.

Edit: After reviewing the responses it has been determined that it was indeed you who not only dragged the argument down with a nitpicking of formatting, but was also responsible for pretending I said "no u" as an argument and never evidenced the supposed "invalid reasoning" you accused me of - When asked to show how the reasoning could possibly be invalid you give me this monster of an ad hominem fallacy as a response (contained in the quote tag above).

One last chance to redeem your argument:

First point was a question for clarification because the quoted statement seems to be false, second one I don't understand how it's relevant at all (so I guess also a question for clarification sorta), third I point out how that statement is false, and fourth I point out how that is false again.

I asked for a demonstration of what you claimed was "invalid reasoning", not a rephrasing/summary of what you recall was said. A demonstration, please, if you know much of what validity means logically it should be simple to demonstrate and then my argument should be defeated and we can move on with the discussion to something better than invalid reasoning.

The quotes are literally exact quotes from your post (the larger excerpt being at the top of the post in the quote box) so once again YOU are the one being dishonest and/or absolutely incapable of reading.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you'll find "no u" anywhere in my argument. If you believe otherwise please cite your source. If you believe I am being dishonest (in contrast to simply mistaken about what you are talking about) I am sure you will be able to prove this by simply using the quote tags which will link me to the response I posted (should be part of your logical demonstration of validity - see above).

(And just a reminder, your first response should be corrected in that I was referring to the differences between DLC and the Custom Fighter button. It was not an argument against using customs in a tournaments setting).

 

[Raijinken]

Customs just got directly patched. Scratch one bad argument against them.

 

[Big-Cat]

I was thinking the same thing. Though you have to wonder what took so long.

 

[Dinoman96]

I was thinking the same thing. Though you have to wonder what took so long.

I wonder if Tourney Mode had something to do with it. Technically that was the first time we could use customs/Miis online outside of With Friends.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wonder if Tourney Mode had something to do with it. Technically that was the first time we could use customs/Miis online outside of With Friends.

I find this likely. With Japan being lukewarm at best on customs, tournament mode is their only reliable source of data. I think this is somewhat supported by the lack of nerfs to any customs -- the devs may be uncomfortable doing so without clear evidence, and equipment would muddy those particular waters. Safer to buff the ones that are neglected.

 

[Dinoman96]

Speaking of which, guys, I've noticed something...

I went into Tourney Mode, and now they're offering 1v1 For Glory tournies...with only custom specials! Equipment is turned off here.

As a Palutena main, this is a godsend. Now I just need to wait for more people to get on...

 

[Jiggly]

Speaking of which, guys, I've noticed something...

I went into Tourney Mode, and now they're offering 1v1 For Glory tournies...with only custom specials! Equipment is turned off here.

As a Palutena main, this is a godsend. Now I just need to wait for more people to get on...

Really? That's awesome! Time to put my wakeywakey/spinphony puff to work!

 

[Xeze]

Speaking of which, guys, I've noticed something...

I went into Tourney Mode, and now they're offering 1v1 For Glory tournies...with only custom specials! Equipment is turned off here.

As a Palutena main, this is a godsend. Now I just need to wait for more people to get on...

time to spam Wind Kong and custom Villager for them to be dumbed down. Then there would be no arguments against customs, besides logistical ones.

 

[Raijinken]

time to spam Wind Kong and custom Villager for them to be dumbed down. Then there would be no arguments against customs, besides logistical ones.

I hope I run into you so I can punish those hard.

I mean, I have no doubt sufficient players are incapable of countering them that they will end up nerfed (if such is the result of the data collected). But I'm looking forward to the free punishes in any match not lagging like mad.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Is tournament mode even alive these days? I've heard approximately nothing about it between the patch that added it and the recent changes.

 

[Dinoman96]

Is tournament mode even alive these days? I've heard approximately nothing about it between the patch that added it and the recent changes.

People still play it, but it tends to be more active at night.

 

[GUIGUI]

Question, does the tourney Creaotor finally allow now to separate "Customs on" from "Equipment on", with the new patch? That's the thing that is needed the most if we want to at least try some online Tourney without being afraid of someone barging in with equipment.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Question, does the tourney Creaotor finally allow now to separate "Customs on" from "Equipment on", with the new patch? That's the thing that is needed the most if we want to at least try some online Tourney without being afraid of someone barging in with equipment.

Miracle of miracles, it does.

 

[Raijinken]

Miracle of miracles, it does.

Unless I mis-read when looking into the tourney options, that's not an option for player-hosted tourneys, only for Regular tournaments. Got a screenie showing where I overlooked something? (I really really hope you're right and I'm wrong)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Unless I mis-read when looking into the tourney options, that's not an option for player-hosted tourneys, only for Regular tournaments. Got a screenie showing where I overlooked something? (I really really hope you're right and I'm wrong)

My statement is based on secondhand information, not personal experience. Unfortunately. (Tournament mode was honestly pretty low on my list of things to care about.)

 

[GUIGUI]

Actually, it's only for hosted Tournament, but that's already a big improvment,

(Custom Special means only Customs on, no equipments)

and the fact that tournaments now allow Stocks matches in For Glory, with Battlefield allowed and With Custom yet without equipment might mean more might be inclined to try it out.

This could be what might popumarize Custom RL tournament. The excuse "The player can't train and aren't used to custom" just doesn't hold anymore.

Now if only Nintendo allowed for users to organize 1Vs1 online torunament

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really need to read up on how tournament mode actually works. I have no idea what the difference is between regular and hosted tournaments.

 

[wizrad]

Lots of characters only had their custom moves patched this time. I was starting to become indifferent to customs, but I really think this means something. Now, if only Sakurai would release all custom moves as $5 DLC...

 

[GUIGUI]

Lots of characters only had their custom moves patched this time. I was starting to become indifferent to customs, but I really think this means something. Now, if only Sakurai would release all custom moves as $5 DLC...

Now that would be an abuse of the customers. All the customs are already there, you just need to unlock them.

 

[Jandlebars]

Now that would be an abuse of the customers. All the customs are already there, you just need to unlock them.

It's hardly "abuse" if it's a cheap alternative to farming the customs out. It's not like they'd remove the option to get them through the traditional method, anyway.

I know I don't speak for everyone, but I've been more than happy to spend over 5 dollars on external equipment for Smash to enhance my experience.

 

[Raijinken]

While I'd gladly let everyone else money their way out of what I ground two systems for if they'd just shut up about it, I think fixing the unlock system to not include duplicates would be enough.

 

[Jandlebars]

While I'd gladly let everyone else money their way out of what I ground two systems for if they'd just shut up about it, I think fixing the unlock system to not include duplicates would be enough.

I wouldn't really mind a Customs lottery machine with duplicates if it were an actual lottery machine mini-game. Like, the one in Melee. :x

Definitely, though, just removing the possibility to get duplicate customs would be dandy. Equipment makes sense for that kind of thing (they rarely end up with the same stay-spread anyway) but surely it makes sense to remove character-specific enhancements from that kind of design.

 

[Eisal]

People still play it, but it tends to be more active at night.

At night where?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I trust you Wii U owners can do a good job at increasing the practical usage of Customs!

 

[wizrad]

Tournament mode was pretty bad.

 

[Ansou]

Well yeah, tournament mode has always been bad. 2 stock, not enough time, bo1, single elimination, chances to match up against someone on the other side of the planet with lag, Omega only, not enough options for player created tourneys, Mii Fighters and custom specials not being in the same tourneys... Regardless, the existence of custom special tourneys is pretty important and it will probably be used for collecting data in regards of balancing. And just for the devs to notice that people actually care about customs. Entering a couple of them once in a while can be worth to do.

 

[Wintropy]

My scene's TOs decided that Saturday's tournament will feature fully customisable Miis, with the rationale: "You can play with their specials even in customs-off, so it's okay."

Customs will not be on, but there will be side-tournaments in future that feature them: "There isn't enough demand for them, but they're still fun so we'll play with them sometimes."

Why can't every debate be this easily resolved?

 

[Steelballray]

Mostly cause customs supporters are annoying as heck trying to force their preferences over the majority with "logical argument" ignoring the fact that the majority of people don't enjoy them. Idk maybe that's the reason who knows.

 

[Raijinken]

Mostly cause customs supporters are annoying as heck trying to force their preferences over the majority with "logical argument" ignoring the fact that the majority of people don't enjoy them. Idk maybe that's the reason who knows.

Says the side succeeding in forcibly killing Customs to further their own preferences.

My scene's TOs decided that Saturday's tournament will feature fully customisable Miis, with the rationale: "You can play with their specials even in customs-off, so it's okay."

Customs will not be on, but there will be side-tournaments in future that feature them: "There isn't enough demand for them, but they're still fun so we'll play with them sometimes."

Why can't every debate be this easily resolved?

Because "time issues" and "not enough tournaments are using Miis yet" and stuff like that.

Lame reasons all of them.

 

[Steelballray]

If someone in my city proposed to me that they wanted a custom event in my tourny and went on to help me with it (since I have my hands full with the bull****-free version of the game) I wouldnt say no them.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mostly cause customs supporters are annoying as heck trying to force their preferences over the majority with "logical argument" ignoring the fact that the majority of people don't enjoy them. Idk maybe that's the reason who knows.

I'm sure you know a lot about "forcing preferences" considering you told Mii players they didn't deserve to have mains in another thread.

 

[Steelballray]

I'm sure you know a lot about "forcing preferences" considering you told Mii players they didn't deserve to have mains in another thread.

I support Miis having all of their moves available and I'm allowing it in my tourny despite many people hating that decision. I just thought that the mii supporters in that thread (mainly wizrad and pegasus knight) were being so freaking annoying in that thread and decided to say so. I don't think I was wrong either.

 

[GUIGUI]

Mostly cause customs supporters are annoying as heck trying to force their preferences over the majority with "logical argument" ignoring the fact that the majority of people don't enjoy them. Idk maybe that's the reason who knows.

"trying to force their preferences over the majority"

Have you looked at the poll above you. That's the thing. The majority want Customs to be on.