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What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

Have your opinions changed?


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LancerStaff

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I also heavily disagreed with nerfing Mac's recovery (although that was also hilarious since it was already the worst in the game, seriously why Sakurai), Dedede's Gordos, and Din's Fire. Diddy's been through a bunch of changes so I've basically given up trying to keep track of them all other than that Hoo-Hah got nerfed into the ground.

Moving on to Sheik and Sheik-tier characters, even though she's (probably) the best in the game my only real beef with her is the utility of needles as a zoning tool because top tier zoning + top tier rushdown on the same character strikes me as a bit much, FFA abilities or lack thereof be damned. Other than that, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with more characters being on her level. Isn't it said that she's remarkably tame for a top tier compared to other Smash games? Unless you think someone could overtake her and become the new #1 in customs, I'm not sure there's a whole lot to worry about.

EDIT:

Stalling tactics in general should fail spectacularly in any format with 2 or more opponents, at least in theory, since keeping out/away from multiple people at once is...I won't say impossible, but much more difficult.
I've heard people say that Mario's probably better then Sheik in customs, and like I said he doesn't exactly take much skill to use either. Sheik's tame because she needs quite a bit of work put in to function.

EBT and Trip Sapling was fairly strong in FFAs, since Villager was pretty unrewarding to go for. Haven't really messed around with it since the nerfs, but customs FFAs are broke anyway since they didn't nerf Wizard's Dropkick and Dorf's good Uspecial. Basically anything that effects a character's recovery positively without losing something else important overtunes a character for FFAs.
 

Blobface

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The whole reason most people use and advocate for customs is because it makes their beloved little Duck Hunt or whatever "viable."
Trying to pin other people's motivations as part of an argument accomplishes nothing. It's like saying people are only against customs because of pure salt, which isn't true at all and just makes people frustrated.
 

Raijinken

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If every custom move were a side-grade, they would remain valid. They would remain valid because they change the way you play the character. By changing the way you play the character, it changes the way your opponent handles your differing application of the character.

This is what customs should do.

It is an unfortunate side-effect that some customs work better in tandem with eachother than others. This is unavoidable. But, if every custom had proper flaws to their strengths, the character in question using these moves that work in tandem, should have a much larger exploitable weakness. If the moves that work in tandem cover eachother's weaknesses, then this should hardly be a problem unless, again, the strengths are too great for them to be true 'side-grades'.

A weaker move that comes out faster. A stronger move that comes out slower. These are simple variations that many custom moves share. If they were properly tweaked and balanced so the speed and strength properly matched up and offered a different, unique, player-decisive change to the character, that would be infinitely more valuable than anything else the game could have to offer.

If anyone is arguing that customs are a way to make weaker characters strong, then it's unfortunate that these characters are so universally weak. I fail to see how pretending you can't change this, while simultaneously striving to prevent other people from changing this, is in any way a step in the right direction.

----

What if we applied a value to each individual custom move, based on how powerful it is, and disallowed "total scores" that are too high? (I feel like this was suggested before) Deliberately picking ****ty moves to offset the strong ones would prevent certain issues.

For example, if EBT/Trip Villager was forced to use the Lloyd that shoots straight upward, does that help address the issue when he can't properly wall you out after you break his camp? If not, what if he also or alternatively had to use the flower-planting non-pocket custom, which would prevent him from keeping projectiles out from his camp?

EBT/Trip doesn't look so menacing when his camp loses a dimension but retains its core gameplan.

This is an example, of course. We need more brainstormers to start looking at this, if only to pose the 'what ifs'.
It's actually impressively difficult to balance speed versus power in games like Smash, or even completely different games. The relationship isn't linear, and small tweaks affect a large number of variables. It's the exact same reason something that looks like a nerf to a move, especially if it's knockback or uncompensated damage, takes actual testing to judge accurately. If you make a move weaker from a damage or knockback stance, suddenly it has potential to become an unbearably powerful combo move, often with itself (looking at you, Sheik's fair or Mario's uair). The trend in a lot of games, not just Smash, is that speed, versatility, and/or reliability will almost invariably trump power at higher skill. Things like Sheik's relative lack of kill moves stop being relevant weaknesses when she has guaranteed or near-guaranteed setups, and top notch performance in all other aspects of the game. By contrast, no matter how much you buff Falcon or Warlock Punch in terms of raw power, they will never be considered overpowered. Even if they were ramped up to Brawl Minus Warlock Punch levels of power (i.e. 666% instant kill), the sheer unlikelihood of landing them on a skilled opponent would render them moot. Nobody gripes about Flare Blade killing almost everyone from almost anywhere from zero when charged, because there is no way Roy alone can force you to take that hit.

That's part of why we have so many weird power balances in Smash, customs or no. Setups and their likely or guaranteed followups outweigh power by a wide margin. Even with the Kong Kombo, DK hasn't gained the popularity of Zamus, Sheik, Mario, or even Ness, because his other drawbacks are so much more significant.

Many customs do offer player choice. Most people grossly overstate the number of pure upgrades there are in the game. Even in cases like Pikachu, Heavy Skull Bash is only outstanding in how useless its base form is, like Flaming Lunge, or Falcon Dash Punch, or Warlock Blade. Obviously, some aren't in the running. Super Jump as a recovery option is simply too slow, still causes freefall, and has no invulnerability, to compare to a strong comboable kill move or a less strong comboable kill/recovery move. On the other hand, there are valid pros and cons to Fast Fireball versus default. Or about which PK Thunder to use. Or Crescent Slash vs Dolphin Slash. Things like Lightweight are "overpowered" because they give Palutena attributes almost universally considered vital to contend in Smash, while Counter is a situational joke in competitive play. People are afraid to give Sheik some situational Needle sidegrades when her potential benefit is vastly lower than allowing a Ganondorf to use Dark Fists.

It's nearly impossible for professional game designers to hit this balance. What individual or group within the Smash community would you be willing to trust with the task of trying to balance moves, or total loadouts? Who has the knowledge, experience, and authority to define quantitative relative strengths to moves, and declare an un-exceedable cap? What skill level can be factored in? How much counter-play gets considered? Is EBT+Timber Counter (laughable now with the balloon explosion nerf) high-value because it's effective against characters or players poor at their own zoning, when a spike-happy Dorf player will gladly face such a technique? Is Kong Cyclone, the poster boy of jank, high-value against players who have the faintest clue how to play against it? Are we going to trust a bunch of biased elitists (speaking of both sides, self included) to rank these objectively?

I don't think anyone in the community has the right to make such a ruling. And it would immediately lead to dissension.
 
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Blobface

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I love customs but I will say this much: I really hope they keep getting balanced. There are so many almost awesome customs/specials that are just total crap due to out-of-proportion drawbacks. So many customs have insanely inflated startup and endlag for no obvious reason. Most every bad custom just needs one change to become a perfectly balanced side option.
 

Space Stranger

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Even though I rarely use customs nowadays when I practice, I'm still in support of them due to their new [for lack of better term] flavor they add to some characters such as Paletuna. I do, however, agree that many moves need to be more balanced to the same degree as standard moves. Some characters have customs that are ought-right garbage while others become more annoying to play against with certain customs.

Even with customs, the placement of characters on tier lists won't change significantly since specials are a part of what makes the character viable in the first place.
 

PoptartLord

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It worked greatly in my community that I personally installed the CMP sets to any interested player's Wii U so they could practice. At the day of the tournament most people were prepared, and I had not to install them again if players lent their Wii Us, so it always ran smoothly. (spoilers: tournament was won by a default Mario, followed by a default Sheik and a default Yoshi with a dash of Iceball Luigi).

It doesn't work anymore because the CMP is outdated (I guess it could if I only transfer sets 1-8).
:196:
I agree that the CMP is in need of an overhaul. Which they're currently working on, but the main guy has been very busy lately so progress is slow. I still see value in talking about it as though it were more up to date, though.

2nd: Not everyone has all customs unlocked. People have to bring their own Wii Us and each must be synced with a 3DS. Everyone must choose the customs they want for each character they play and sometimes people will want to counter-pick custom moves for certain MUs (for example Ganon usually wants flame choke but will want flame wave vs Zelda because she rolls too far on tech and the non-grabbing variation vs Rosalina because Luma). These add maybe 5 minutes to each initial setup and 3 minutes per game. If you have 40 players that time really adds up.
Ok, I see where you're coming from now. In the scenario you're describing the upload process is happening during matches and with set creation being done on the fly. In that case I agree that it's not logistically sound. But that's just the problem that the CMP is trying to resolve. With it all the usable sets can (and should) be uploaded outside of tournaments so there's nothing making tournament matches take longer. I strongly suggest the 8 set version, leaving two slots per character for local favorites. Give people a couple of weeks to submit their preferred sets beforehand. And if someone wants to use a different set after everything is set up then they're out of luck. ...for that tournament, at least. The possibility of updates is at the TO's discretion. It's not a perfect system but until we can hack in unlocks it's the best we've got.

3rd: Again custom moves take about 100 hours to unlock, casual people won't put that much time into the game. Then customs encourage exploiting powerful moves rather than fundamental play which is hard to deal with if you don't know each custom setup. The games are less fun to watch and that will turn new players off to considering competitive smash. Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yynXqx03VY
You're shooting yourself in the foot with that first sentence by arguing that competitive tournament rulesets should be catering to casual players and the relative lack of time they put into the game.

You picked a really bad example video. Those two were goofing around more than having a serious match (they play against each other regularly, and one isn't a DK main), but more importantly you claim "less fun to watch" and the commentators (watchers) spend most of the match laughing. A better video would be one of Captain Awesum (spelling?); he's somewhat of the figurehead for planking Villagers and people are very... vocal... about it to say the least. Slight aside, but I'm 90% sure he didn't win the first tournament where he used this strategy. I'm pretty sure I remember the commentators saying it was new, but that was a long time ago. Confirmation, anyone?

Fundamentals > exploiting powerful moves. Spam is easily counter-played. Even I've beaten powerful move spam in tournament using a lesser character.

Last:
DK's wind upB because it has armor frames and auto cancels making it extremely spammable. Villager's trip sapling, exploding balloons because it allows him to plank for easy damage then simply run to the edge and reset the situation. Rosalina's Luma warp and far shooting starbits because they further enhance one of the best keep away characters by giving her a long range projectile. Mario's high pressure fludd, and fast fireball because they're strait upgrades on a top tier character that completely destroy characters with poor recovery distance (the former) and let one of the most mobile characters zone even better. Mario's wind cape and pretty much any wind custom like Ike's Aether because they make Little Mac completely non-viable with absurdly bad MUs. CF's moving Falcon punch because it is a strait upgrade to a high tier character when low tiers like Jiggly puff get no benefits and CF's lightning kick because it true combos into Fair Knee. Fox's slow blaster because it gives a character with extremely good close range combat options and a reflector a long range kill move. Pika's meteor upB because it buffs a high tier who has really good edgeguarding further. Marth/Lucina's crescent blade because it gives them a grab release>KO move and low %s. Any upB that has more power on a character who can Dthrow>juggle with Uairs because those combos already kill early in SSB4 and are easy to do (see MK, ZSS, etc). Pacman's meteor trampoline because it has really good edge guarding properties and is a frame 3 lasting meteor. Shulk's Extreme counter because it kills at 5%. Diddy's para bananas because they buff a high tier who already has good options. WFT's heavy breathing because it's a strait upgrade, her jumbo hoops for much the same reason DK's upB is annoying and it's shield pressure and safety. And WFT's sweeping sun saturation because it's a huge store-able range attack that carries characters into the side blastzone.
First off, thanks for the list with explanations. This is so much more helpful than reading "a bunch of" every time. I will try to talk about each of these, trying to focus on drawbacks that make them not unequivocal upgrades, but I do not have perfect game knowledge. Anyone reading this, help fill in the gaps if you can.

Kong Cyclone: It is surprisingly weak to shields. Shields nullify the windbox. If you have one, command grabs work well against it. It has weaker vertical? recovery than the default. The grounded version does far less shield damage. I've heard that if you get sucked up and take the first hit you can sometimes airdodge out of the second hit (the powerful one). I don't know the circumstances (percentage or fall speed based?), so someone confirm this please. Lastly, the auto cancel is also a weakness - you know where they're going to be. Shield and punish. (the armor stops while he's still spinning)

Trip Sapling + EBT: There has been at least one recovery fuel nerf, so planking is setting yourself up for a gimp. The balloon explosion's hitboxes were made smaller in the latest patch. And the sapling removes the Axe as a kill move.

Luma Warp: It leaves a close range hole. I don't have something to quote but I remember some Rosalina mains saying they don't like it in some matchups. Someone else will have to give you more details.

Shooting Starbit: Good, but not infallible. It can be bucketed, it should be reflectable. Again, hopefully someone else can add to this.

High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D.: Takes longer to charge? Otherwise no clue. Assistance needed.

Fast Fireball: It is weaker, especially the late hit. It's more useful in some matchups than others. The default falls with you to help cover your landing (or harass recoveries), and because the default is slower it controls space better.

Wind vs. Little Mac: Being able to more easily gimp the (arguably) most easily gimped character is a weak argument, especially when those characters already have good ways to do that.

Lightning Kick: No experience here. It sounds like it's harder to land than the default? Anyone?

Falcon Dash Punch: Less damage than the default. I can't see ever getting hit with this outside of a shield break (like the default).

Impact/Charge(?) Blaster: No experience here either. Slow + long range usually = reactable.

Meteor Quick Attack: So slow. And it's less useful onstage.

Crescent Blade: Due to the decreased vertical resistance you can't edgeguard as deeply and you're more vulnerable to spikes. I've heard it's a weaker out of shield option (confirmation needed). Lastly, the default is a good combo breaker; I'd need to test if Crescent Blade can do that or not. If not, that is a big loss.

Meteor Trampoline: Back during EVO I heard a lot of complaints that nearly all of the sets had Meteor Trampoline instead of the default. Between when the sets were locked in and the event I think a bunch of neat stuff was found with the default. Meteor looked better than it was at first glance. Other than those stories I can't be more detailed, sorry.

Power Vision: Claiming it kills at 5% regularly is like saying Luma's up-tilt kills at 0% regularly. It requires a lot of set up and for the opponent to almost literally walk right into it. As for the drawbacks, it's slower (especially bad for counters) and there's something about less power on repeated use. Or is it repeated whiff?

Battering Banana Peel: I have no specifics; I recall reading that most players prefer the default banana over this. Anybody?

Heavy Breathing??: Which one do you mean? One creates an explosion, the other makes you fly less far. The default increases offensive power... I don't see how any of those are straight upgrades when they work so differently.

Jumbo Hoops: It travels less vertically, so you're more susceptible to spikes and can't edgeguard as deep (WFT likes playing offstage). And the head is still vulnerable from above.

Sweeping Sun Salutation: No experience here. Anyone?

Do such hacks exist? The Wii U has to update before playing a new game so that doesn't sound very practical imo.
This isn't the site for this, so I'll just say that the last few months have been eventful. If you modify the game's save file to have them all unlocked then game updates won't be an issue. It's been working well for the 3DS so far.

Wait, are we still pretending that Kong Cyclone and Villager customs are problematic in November of 2015?
Yes. Amazing, in it's own way. El Psy Congroo.

-PoptartLord
 

Blobface

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Just putting it out there, Kong Cyclone is an overrated piece of hot garbage. If DK has someone caught in it, which person gets hit is a complete toss-up, since the hits don't link properly and the super armor cuts out before the final hit. You don't even need to try to hit him either, you can just airdodge and avoid it almost guaranteed. It took me an entire 15 minutes to figure this out by the way.

It's badly designed without a doubt, but it's not this all-powerful death storm.
 

Rashyboy05

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I

Crescent Blade: Due to the decreased vertical resistance you can't edgeguard as deeply and you're more vulnerable to spikes. I've heard it's a weaker out of shield option (confirmation needed). Lastly, the default is a good combo breaker; I'd need to test if Crescent Blade can do that or not. If not, that is a big loss.
Most of the Marth mains, myself included, claims that Crescent slash is much better than Dolphin Slash. It gives Marth a really good kill move of a grab. Grab release->Crescent Slash.
 

Rizen

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Ok, I see where you're coming from now. In the scenario you're describing the upload process is happening during matches and with set creation being done on the fly. In that case I agree that it's not logistically sound. But that's just the problem that the CMP is trying to resolve. With it all the usable sets can (and should) be uploaded outside of tournaments so there's nothing making tournament matches take longer. I strongly suggest the 8 set version, leaving two slots per character for local favorites. Give people a couple of weeks to submit their preferred sets beforehand. And if someone wants to use a different set after everything is set up then they're out of luck. ...for that tournament, at least. The possibility of updates is at the TO's discretion. It's not a perfect system but until we can hack in unlocks it's the best we've got.
I don't know what tournaments you've been to but in my experience they're much more on the fly. The TO tells people when and where and they get a discount if they bring a setup. The rest is improvising. People use the TVs and systems available. Sometimes new people show up. It's not a perfect world where we have the luxury of everyone having a perfect setup.
The perfect system is to not allow customs. It completely negates this mess.
You're shooting yourself in the foot with that first sentence by arguing that competitive tournament rulesets should be catering to casual players and the relative lack of time they put into the game.
You're rationalizing how customs put off new players. Pros don't like them either. It's not like the customs off system is "catering to casual players" it's simply the better rule set for everyone.
You picked a really bad example video. Those two were goofing around more than having a serious match (they play against each other regularly, and one isn't a DK main), but more importantly you claim "less fun to watch" and the commentators (watchers) spend most of the match laughing. A better video would be one of Captain Awesum (spelling?); he's somewhat of the figurehead for planking Villagers and people are very... vocal... about it to say the least. Slight aside, but I'm 90% sure he didn't win the first tournament where he used this strategy. I'm pretty sure I remember the commentators saying it was new, but that was a long time ago. Confirmation, anyone?

Fundamentals > exploiting powerful moves. Spam is easily counter-played. Even I've beaten powerful move spam in tournament using a lesser character.
That was a tournament match where Seagull Joe set out to show how dumb customs are by beating a DK main with DK by exploiting customs. He did exactly that. Everyone was laughing because the tourney match was a joke because how much better the custom move was than good fundamental DK play.

"Fundamentals > exploiting powerful moves." tell that to pre patch Luigi. The game gets balance patches to remove that stuff. IDK why custom supporters want to slide it back in.
First off, thanks for the list with explanations. This is so much more helpful than reading "a bunch of" every time. I will try to talk about each of these, trying to focus on drawbacks that make them not unequivocal upgrades, but I do not have perfect game knowledge. Anyone reading this, help fill in the gaps if you can.

Kong Cyclone: It is surprisingly weak to shields. Shields nullify the windbox. If you have one, command grabs work well against it. It has weaker vertical? recovery than the default. The grounded version does far less shield damage. I've heard that if you get sucked up and take the first hit you can sometimes airdodge out of the second hit (the powerful one). I don't know the circumstances (percentage or fall speed based?), so someone confirm this please. Lastly, the auto cancel is also a weakness - you know where they're going to be. Shield and punish. (the armor stops while he's still spinning)

Trip Sapling + EBT: There has been at least one recovery fuel nerf, so planking is setting yourself up for a gimp. The balloon explosion's hitboxes were made smaller in the latest patch. And the sapling removes the Axe as a kill move.

Luma Warp: It leaves a close range hole. I don't have something to quote but I remember some Rosalina mains saying they don't like it in some matchups. Someone else will have to give you more details.

Shooting Starbit: Good, but not infallible. It can be bucketed, it should be reflectable. Again, hopefully someone else can add to this.

High-Pressure F.L.U.D.D.: Takes longer to charge? Otherwise no clue. Assistance needed.

Fast Fireball: It is weaker, especially the late hit. It's more useful in some matchups than others. The default falls with you to help cover your landing (or harass recoveries), and because the default is slower it controls space better.

Wind vs. Little Mac: Being able to more easily gimp the (arguably) most easily gimped character is a weak argument, especially when those characters already have good ways to do that.

Lightning Kick: No experience here. It sounds like it's harder to land than the default? Anyone?

Falcon Dash Punch: Less damage than the default. I can't see ever getting hit with this outside of a shield break (like the default).

Impact/Charge(?) Blaster: No experience here either. Slow + long range usually = reactable.

Meteor Quick Attack: So slow. And it's less useful onstage.

Crescent Blade: Due to the decreased vertical resistance you can't edgeguard as deeply and you're more vulnerable to spikes. I've heard it's a weaker out of shield option (confirmation needed). Lastly, the default is a good combo breaker; I'd need to test if Crescent Blade can do that or not. If not, that is a big loss.

Meteor Trampoline: Back during EVO I heard a lot of complaints that nearly all of the sets had Meteor Trampoline instead of the default. Between when the sets were locked in and the event I think a bunch of neat stuff was found with the default. Meteor looked better than it was at first glance. Other than those stories I can't be more detailed, sorry.

Power Vision: Claiming it kills at 5% regularly is like saying Luma's up-tilt kills at 0% regularly. It requires a lot of set up and for the opponent to almost literally walk right into it. As for the drawbacks, it's slower (especially bad for counters) and there's something about less power on repeated use. Or is it repeated whiff?

Battering Banana Peel: I have no specifics; I recall reading that most players prefer the default banana over this. Anybody?

Heavy Breathing??: Which one do you mean? One creates an explosion, the other makes you fly less far. The default increases offensive power... I don't see how any of those are straight upgrades when they work so differently.

Jumbo Hoops: It travels less vertically, so you're more susceptible to spikes and can't edgeguard as deep (WFT likes playing offstage). And the head is still vulnerable from above.

Sweeping Sun Salutation: No experience here. Anyone?
Drawbacks do not mean many custom moves aren't overall significantly better. It's like saying Sheik is fast but has little kill power so it balances out. Take Shulk's Power vision for example. Shulk doesn't become good because he got the frame data tweaking he needs, he becomes good because he only needs to throw out 1 successful power vision at almost any % to take a stock. The recovery time isn't very bad. That's not how smash should be balanced. I want to fight Shulk, not "counter: the character". Exploits like this are then only reason some bad characters get move viable with customs.
Ike is a good example of how a character should be balanced through patches. He got some minor frame data buffs and now can compete with high tiers.

And then good characters get exploits too with customs. The big reason why Mario getting fast fireball is bad is because Mario is already a good character. Fast fireball gives him a safe, fast zoning tool he was not intended to have. Even more so with Rosaluma's shooting star bits. Rosa was not meant to have a long range projectile (I mean that doesn't risk Luma's safety). This is not balance. This stirs things up and makes bad MUs even worse. In the vanilla meta at least every character can potentially win.

I feel like all the pro-custom arguments go 'well it's not that much worse so everyone should go through the hassle of unlocking customs and longer setup times because customs can be gotten around'. I'd rather just set customs to off. I do support custom side events and think they're fun. I don't want them for the competitive standard is all.
 

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Most of the Marth mains, myself included, claims that Crescent slash is much better than Dolphin Slash. It gives Marth a really good kill move of a grab. Grab release->Crescent Slash.
Though is not a good OOS option. Being weak at the beginning and a high committal makes that hitbox unsafe on hit.
Also, CS works on like half the cast, being not too useful against the other half (with some exceptions).
:196:

Rizen Rizen : your post is so full with flaws OMG, I want to reply but it's 2am so I miiiiight get to it later, if Poptart doesn't do it first.
 

DunnoBro

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Everyone was laughing because the tourney match was a joke because how much better the custom move was than good fundamental DK play.
Nah I was there, don't think there was was any deep meaning to the laughter it was just dumb seeing the move super armor through itself lol

Also I can say without a doubt I had the most experience vs custom DK (practiced the MU on a near daily basis) and never lost to average joe in customs. Closest he got was when he stopped trying to abuse it because unlike most players I knew when to shield drop and how to punish it (pressure his return to neutral)

And until recently he always beat me in default at xanadu right after customs were banned. I dunno about overall, but in this case it does seem like fundamentals mattered more than custom abuse.
 
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Rizen

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Nah I was there, don't think there was was any deep meaning to the laughter it was just dumb seeing the move super armor through itself lol

Also I can say without a doubt I had the most experience vs custom DK (practiced the MU on a near daily basis) and never lost to average joe in customs. Closest he got was when he stopped trying to abuse it because unlike most players I knew when to shield drop and how to punish it (pressure his return to neutral)

And until recently he always beat me in default at xanadu right after customs were banned. I dunno about overall, but in this case it does seem like fundamentals mattered more than custom abuse.
That's good to know. It seemed weird seeing a Sonic player beat a DK main in a tournament ditto.
 

Rashyboy05

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Though is not a good OOS option. Being weak at the beginning and a high committal makes that hitbox unsafe on hit.
Also, CS works on like half the cast, being not too useful against the other half (with some exceptions).
:196:
I'm very aware that Crescent Slash isn't a good OOS option. I'm just saying that most Marth players prefer CS over DS in customs on environment for the early kill potential.

I would like to know who are the other half of the cast where CS doesn't work though
 

ZarroTsu

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I dream of a day where fundamentals and customs will work hand in hand to create an unstoppable menace more powerful than ZeRo.

Smash 4 turns into a shonen anime.
 

Raijinken

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Most of the Marth mains, myself included, claims that Crescent slash is much better than Dolphin Slash. It gives Marth a really good kill move of a grab. Grab release->Crescent Slash.
One of the many side-grades that most players who don't main or sink relevant time into custom Marcina don't get. Playstyle factors in, too. Especially against the famous Plankager, foregoing the vertical recovery makes a spike game, way easy against Balloon Trip, far riskier. They're almost completely even in trade-off, and are a prime example of custom moves done right. Doesn't even invalidate Roy. All obvious overlooking of normal moves aside, Blazer's flexibility and different hitbox gives it a wholly different range of options compared to either Crescent Slash or Dolphin Slash.

I'm very aware that Crescent Slash isn't a good OOS option. I'm just saying that most Marth players prefer CS over DS in customs on environment for the early kill potential.

I would like to know who are the other half of the cast where CS doesn't work though
Here is Thinkaman's older thread on the subject. It's a powerful tool, but obviously not his only kill move. Tippers are strong in themselves, and his coverage of get-up options is outstanding. Depending on the opponent's recovery, trump->spike, Shield Breaker, dair, or even a raw Crescent Slash, are all excellent options.

For the record, I prefer Crescent Slash, and my Lucina-main friend prefers Dolphin Slash. We both use each move very well, and there are plenty of blind spots the other can't cover as well.
 
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CalebGamer14

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I still love costums to this day but as smash 4 being an eSport now we need to find a global rule set with or without costums.I'm good with both I use custom moves all the time. but we still need to pick a rule set like 3 stocks with customs or 2 stock without.Like this if you agree with me.
 

GeneralLedge

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I don't think anyone in the community has the right to make such a ruling. And it would immediately lead to dissension.
I'm having a hard time disagreeing with anything you said, which renders the idea of public balancing sort of moot, I guess.

It's just frustrating seeing people moan about custom moves without any chance to compromise. I suppose these people are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Hopefully the patch either later today, or somewhere down the road from now, will address enough custom moves that certain arguments against them are rendered superfluous.

Anywho, a thought occurred earlier with some relationship to "a unique thing that gives many characters a boost, but certain characters not enough to work with."

Does this same statement apply to wave-dashing in Melee when it was discovered? I'm no Melee buff, but I don't think Melee-Kirby got any better when wave dashing was discovered and circulated. Perhaps it was a universal benefit, but I can blindly assume that faster, more fluid characters saw higher returns from utilizing it than others.

Were there similar arguments as customs, to ban wave-dashing at the time? I'm genuinely curious.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I'm having a hard time disagreeing with anything you said, which renders the idea of public balancing sort of moot, I guess.

It's just frustrating seeing people moan about custom moves without any chance to compromise. I suppose these people are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Hopefully the patch either later today, or somewhere down the road from now, will address enough custom moves that certain arguments against them are rendered superfluous.

Anywho, a thought occurred earlier with some relationship to "a unique thing that gives many characters a boost, but certain characters not enough to work with."

Does this same statement apply to wave-dashing in Melee when it was discovered? I'm no Melee buff, but I don't think Melee-Kirby got any better when wave dashing was discovered and circulated. Perhaps it was a universal benefit, but I can blindly assume that faster, more fluid characters saw higher returns from utilizing it than others.

Were there similar arguments as customs, to ban wave-dashing at the time? I'm genuinely curious.
Not sure what the public perception was like (the whole thing was way before my time), but I think it's worth noting that AFAIK Peach is the only high tier without a good wavedash.
 

Rizen

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It's just frustrating seeing people moan about custom moves without any chance to compromise. I suppose these people are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Does this same statement apply to wave-dashing in Melee when it was discovered? I'm no Melee buff, but I don't think Melee-Kirby got any better when wave dashing was discovered and circulated. Perhaps it was a universal benefit, but I can blindly assume that faster, more fluid characters saw higher returns from utilizing it than others.

Were there similar arguments as customs, to ban wave-dashing at the time? I'm genuinely curious.
It doesn't work that way. The issue is simply have customs turned to on or off on the character select screen. It's not a matter of anti-custom people not compromising. Custom people want to add a rule (yes add, because customs start set to off and FG doesn't have customs) to change the gameplay and that also brings up several inconveniences.

You're comparing an AT to a rule; it's completely different. Customs on/off are closer to having items on/off or metal smash or something.
 

DunnoBro

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Well wavedashing couldn't be feasibly banned, customs can. Wavedashing probably would've been banned if it was feasible to do so and the community at large disliked it. (Or rather, just not allowed. If it was in by default but could be turned off I doubt they would have)
 
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Raijinken

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I'm having a hard time disagreeing with anything you said, which renders the idea of public balancing sort of moot, I guess.

It's just frustrating seeing people moan about custom moves without any chance to compromise. I suppose these people are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Hopefully the patch either later today, or somewhere down the road from now, will address enough custom moves that certain arguments against them are rendered superfluous.

Anywho, a thought occurred earlier with some relationship to "a unique thing that gives many characters a boost, but certain characters not enough to work with."

Does this same statement apply to wave-dashing in Melee when it was discovered? I'm no Melee buff, but I don't think Melee-Kirby got any better when wave dashing was discovered and circulated. Perhaps it was a universal benefit, but I can blindly assume that faster, more fluid characters saw higher returns from utilizing it than others.

Were there similar arguments as customs, to ban wave-dashing at the time? I'm genuinely curious.
As others have mentioned, it's a matter of practicality. It's harder to ban a physics interaction. If Customs couldn't be disabled in any way whatsoever and were unlocked from the start, it would be harder to blanket ban them like this. Kinda like Miis, since they're a related topic. You can't disable Miis in any way through any game setting, not their sizes nor moves. While size has the "requires outside software to change" argument, moves don't.
 
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LancerStaff

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Trying to pin other people's motivations as part of an argument accomplishes nothing. It's like saying people are only against customs because of pure salt, which isn't true at all and just makes people frustrated.
This is true, though. If you look at the character subforums, the general opinion on customs varies greatly depending on how is gained from them. Palutena boards are constantly talking about customs because they're good, while in the Pit boards we say very little about customs (I'm actually the source of most customs discussion, believe it or not) while they're only average strength. I only ever see particular players of certain characters support customs.

Though is not a good OOS option. Being weak at the beginning and a high committal makes that hitbox unsafe on hit.
Also, CS works on like half the cast, being not too useful against the other half (with some exceptions).
:196:

Rizen Rizen : your post is so full with flaws OMG, I want to reply but it's 2am so I miiiiight get to it later, if Poptart doesn't do it first.
Last I checked DS's hitbox was garbage, so it's OoS capabilities are fairly limited. It's also quite lacking in the power department.

One of the many side-grades that most players who don't main or sink relevant time into custom Marcina don't get. Playstyle factors in, too. Especially against the famous Plankager, foregoing the vertical recovery makes a spike game, way easy against Balloon Trip, far riskier. They're almost completely even in trade-off, and are a prime example of custom moves done right. Doesn't even invalidate Roy. All obvious overlooking of normal moves aside, Blazer's flexibility and different hitbox gives it a wholly different range of options compared to either Crescent Slash or Dolphin Slash.

For the record, I prefer Crescent Slash, and my Lucina-main friend prefers Dolphin Slash. We both use each move very well, and there are plenty of blind spots the other can't cover as well.
When was the last time you were actually on the Marth boards? When I strolled on through a week ago there were a few of your experts talking about customs and being upset how people wanted to play braindead grab release Marth instead of the one that requires skill because braindead was stronger.

So? Most people don't pick inferior options in tournaments, most certainly not when it matters.

As others have mentioned, it's a matter of practicality. It's harder to ban a physics interaction. If Customs couldn't be disabled in any way whatsoever and were default, it would be harder to blanket ban them like this. Kinda like Miis, since they're a related topic. You can't disable Miis in any way through any game setting, not their sizes nor moves. While size has the "requires outside software to change" argument, moves don't.
Now while I'm in support of Miis, they do have an off button. Delete all of them and they disappear from the CSS.
 

GeneralLedge

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I wonder when/if DLC characters will get banned. They too are optional. Pre-existing TOs could remove them by disconnecting their NNID and wiping existing game data.

Not really a counter-argument for/against miis/customs, just an odd observation.

Of course, to do so would require everyone and their mother to suddenly start hating on DLC characters.
 

DunnoBro

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When was the last time you were actually on the Marth boards? When I strolled on through a week ago there were a few of your experts talking about customs and being upset how people wanted to play braindead grab release Marth instead of the one that requires skill because braindead was stronger.
What experts and what thread? The minimal talk of customs I see leans neutral/positive there. Feels kind of like you're fabricating "experts" to act as mouthpieces for you.

Also don't see how this is relevant to his post but these "experts" sound more like you than actual experts.
 

LancerStaff

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What experts and what thread? The minimal talk of customs I see leans neutral/positive there. Feels kind of like you're fabricating "experts" to act as mouthpieces for you.

Also don't see how this is relevant to his post but these "experts" sound more like you than actual experts.
Vipermoon64 namely, although I don't remember the topic. Then a couple others chimed in and were commenting on the whole "I'd main Marth in customs" secretly meaning "I'd main Marth if he was cheesy again."

General opinion is positive, but you still have the level heads upset with how custom Marth works.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Vipermoon64 namely, although I don't remember the topic. Then a couple others chimed in and were commenting on the whole "I'd main Marth in customs" secretly meaning "I'd main Marth if he was cheesy again."

General opinion is positive, but you still have the level heads upset with how custom Marth works.
what makes you able to separate the level heads from the non-level heads? Since you're already anti-customs I suspect someone must be anti-customs to be a level-head in your book.
 

DunnoBro

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Vipermoon64 namely, although I don't remember the topic. Then a couple others chimed in and were commenting on the whole "I'd main Marth in customs" secretly meaning "I'd main Marth if he was cheesy again."

General opinion is positive, but you still have the level heads upset with how custom Marth works.
That still contradicts what you said. You stated they were upset about how Custom Marth played, not how they like it and YOU dislike it.

"Level heads" aren't synonymous with "people who agree with me"

I won't speak on custom Marth overall as I'm not too familiar, but this follows your pattern of smearing customs in any way you can, regardless of connection to the topic or what can be determined as truth.

I don't even care about customs anymore but vindictive and inefficient debating tactics need to be pointed out.
 
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SherrdreamZ

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At this time custom's do not seem balanced evenly, or even close with there normal counterparts. Until such a massive overhaul is complete, and work closer to the tweaks that Marcina get, barring Crescent slash if it is OP? Then i don't think they belong in any competitive setting. I personally don't know what is or isn't balanced because ive never played with customs before. But i have seen the Janky or upgraded forms of specials. That easily tells me while it would be really awesome to have options with custom moves, it is not remotely feasible at this time.
 

GeneralLedge

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If a single move is OP, and we know it's OP, doesn't that mean we know what to look out for? What our opponents is most likely to use?

If you successfully bait a crescent slash, in this instance of example, how can you punish it? Or is it unpunishable? Or is it impossible to bait/prepare for?
 
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Rizen

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If a single move is OP, and we know it's OP, doesn't that mean we know what to look out for? What our opponents is most likely to use?

If you successfully bait a crescent slash, in this instance of example, how can you punish it? Or is it unpunishable? Or is it impossible to bait/prepare for?
"Don't get grabbed". Marth can grab release combo into crescent slash on some characters.
That still contradicts what you said. You stated they were upset about how Custom Marth played, not how they like it and YOU dislike it.

"Level heads" aren't synonymous with "people who agree with me"

I won't speak on custom Marth overall as I'm not too familiar, but this follows your pattern of smearing customs in any way you can, regardless of connection to the topic or what can be determined as truth.

I don't even care about customs anymore but vindictive and inefficient debating tactics need to be pointed out.
I think all LancerStaff LancerStaff was trying to get across is Marth players also think Crescent Slash is a good custom that outweighs the downsides. :ohwell:
 
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LancerStaff

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what makes you able to separate the level heads from the non-level heads? Since you're already anti-customs I suspect someone must be anti-customs to be a level-head in your book.
That still contradicts what you said. You stated they were upset about how Custom Marth played, not how they like it and YOU dislike it.

"Level heads" aren't synonymous with "people who agree with me"

I won't speak on custom Marth overall as I'm not too familiar, but this follows your pattern of smearing customs in any way you can, regardless of connection to the topic or what can be determined as truth.

I don't even care about customs anymore but vindictive and inefficient debating tactics need to be pointed out.
This is getting silly... Not once did I say they didn't like customs, I said that they didn't like Crescent Slash because it draws in fraud Marths. Two different things. The level heads in this situation are the ones willing to play a character without relying on a cheap trick, like the Luigis and Diddys who stuck around after the nerfs. If you're not willing to play a character without customs, you're not going to be willing to play them when they're nerfed either.
 

GeneralLedge

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I hesitate to consider an unspoken rule to "pretend non-customs doesn't exist" when speaking about customs.

Ideally, the two won't interchange outside of a carry-over in fundamentals. True, several characters' best sets in customs might remain 1111. But as I implied before, we would/could/should consider customs-on characters as completely different characters than customs-off (you can, after all, still play 1111 Mario even if it isn't currently the "most ideal"). If these "different characters" still existed regardless of scenario, it's entirely moot to complain that they're more powerful than others.

Carry-over from the other topic, I pose a question:

With customs on, which characters bypass the current 'gatekeeper' characters (:4sheik::4zss::rosalina:), and more importantly, which characters become the new gatekeepers in a custom meta?


(I sort of wish we had character smiley icons with a little wrench in the bottom corner to more easily denote whether a character is customs-on or not)
 
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Rizen

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I don't have anything more to add and this thread is getting touchy so I'll take my leave. We're obviously not coming to an agreement. I just wanted to give you guys a clearer picture of the anti-custom side.
Peace
 

DunnoBro

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This is getting silly... Not once did I say they didn't like customs
Never said you did.

You stated they were upset about how Custom Marth played, not how they like it and YOU dislike it.
And like I pointed out earlier, no one really has this sentiment on the Marth boards that I can see... Except you, if you count.

And again, talk of "cheap tricks" is extremely subjective, you can't use terms like those in debate and expect to be taken seriously. And constantly appealing to these magical "level heads" who oh-so-conveniently agree with you isn't doing you any favors either.

(Appealing to an authority that doesn't even exist is a new one for me)

I'm not here to argue or disprove you though, so feel free to continue creating imaginary anti-custom gods of debate to base your arguments on if you think it'll help. Just be glad customs legality has actualy extremely little to do with how "cheap" they are perceived to be, or how good you think you are at debate.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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Yeah I'm done too. I gave my piece on why I love customs and on why I don't think they're going to work out right now. This is just a shouting match, with nothing on the line but pride.
 

SherrdreamZ

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After looking at the Mario Gang customs... compared to their standard.

I see no big issues with Mario or Luigi's Customs. :4mario::4luigi:

I see no big issues with Browser's customs. :4bowser:
I do with Peach's "Neutral special" that puts people to sleep. :4peach:

I do with Yoshi's Egg Eat and Drop "Side Special" that appears to launch you halfway across the screen at low %. :4yoshi:
I do with Yoshi's Giant Egg Toss "Up Special" that seems to dole out good damage and is not that slow. :4yoshi:

I do with Rosalina's Shooting Star Special as it gives her incredible Zoning capability. some of her other's are iffy about fairness imo :rosalina:

I do with Wario's Fast Bike Special, that just seems to be a straight upgrade if you learn to use it... :4wario:

And that is just from looking at them for less than a minute or two, Customs are an interesting edition, but these added variables have no place in competitive Smash without much stricter balancing initiatives
.
 

Charey

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I don't see any custom character bypassing the current top tiers, but as for new gate keepers I would put Wind :4dk: and Stall :4villager: for that, they are beatable but you need to know how to deal with them to succeed in a customs on Meta.
 

MrGame&Rock

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Okay I'm back just to reply to talk about my main.
I do with Yoshi's Egg Eat and Drop "Side Special" that appears to launch you halfway across the screen at low %. :4yoshi:
I do with Yoshi's Giant Egg Toss "Up Special" that seems to dole out good damage and is not that slow. :4yoshi:
Yoshi's Egg Launch is a slightly better gimping tool against characters with bad recoveries, but it's easier to mash out of. The default is then better in matchups or playstyles where you want to get followups on Egg Lay for free damage, like against Pit or probably Sheik. In addition, there's no knockback scaling . You get launched the same distance at 0 as you do at 150. And it's a neutral special, not a side special. Neither of yoshi's side special customs are that great. They're both upgrades over the default, but the default is utter ****e and neither side special is good enough to be a consistently useful tool.

Also Yoshi's up special default is BY FAR his best option. Timed Egg Throw, the one that is big and does more damage, has a downside: it doesn't have a hitbox until it explodes. So you throw it and it goes right through an opponent. You lose a lot of what made eggs great, for what? Some added % when it does hit? Yeah, no. Nearly nobody bothers with any Yoshi up special but the default.
 

SherrdreamZ

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Okay I'm back just to reply to talk about my main.

Yoshi's Egg Launch is a slightly better gimping tool against characters with bad recoveries, but it's easier to mash out of. The default is then better in matchups or playstyles where you want to get followups on Egg Lay for free damage, like against Pit or probably Sheik. In addition, there's no knockback scaling . You get launched the same distance at 0 as you do at 150. And it's a neutral special, not a side special. Neither of yoshi's side special customs are that great. They're both upgrades over the default, but the default is utter ****e and neither side special is good enough to be a consistently useful tool.

Also Yoshi's up special default is BY FAR his best option. Timed Egg Throw, the one that is big and does more damage, has a downside: it doesn't have a hitbox until it explodes. So you throw it and it goes right through an opponent. You lose a lot of what made eggs great, for what? Some added % when it does hit? Yeah, no. Nearly nobody bothers with any Yoshi up special but the default.
That's fine, and it's good to get the point of view of someone who has seen more of how the specials compare in practice. As you stated Yoshi's side special is an upgrade. How do you decide which characters benefit from an improved kit with specials whereas others do not? I think customs are interesting and maybe i would even like them... But balanced?? I don't see that as a possibility in the strict way competitive needs it to be unfortunately.
 
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