What about community health?

[Jack Kieser]

This started as a response to a post to the planking poll in Brawl Tactical, but I didn't think it'd be right to get all preachy in the thread proper, so I'll post it here. It's not rant-y or anything, not very in depth, but just something I thought should be put out there for discussion.

TL;DR: I don't think we put enough value on the health of the community anymore. I think people forget that without a healthy community, there are no tournaments and no playing to win, so community health should start to be one of our priorities, and our tournament actions should reflect that.

******

You know, I expect not many of the people for planking are going to like this, but I really don't care. I really think now that people are taking "playing to win" too far. People want to use that as an excuse to do anything they want, regardless of the consequences. People, the community is falling apart. Hell, there isn't really even a community anymore. I don't know what to call us anymore.

You know what made us so awesome back in 06-07? Our community. We had a kick *** community that people wanted to be a part of. Now, we have a bunch of individuals who care more about winning a single match than the health of the community as a whole; remember, if there is no community at all, there won't be any tournaments for you to "play to win" at. Of course, I'm sure that's the goal of a lot of players: destabilize the Brawl community to try to force people back to the "superior game". I have no problem believing that a lot of people here genuinely WANT to see the Brawl community collapse, and will do anything they deem necessary to make Brawl fail, planking included.

Seriously, people. When is having a healthy gaming community going to be important to anyone? Doing your best is commendable, and sandbagging sucks, but doing anything to win, even if it means completely destabilizing the community as a whole? I think we need to start re-thinking our priorities if we want our community to thrive the way it once did.

But hey, I'm sure there are plenty of players who don't want the community to thrive. I'm sure they're just fine with having the entire competitive community consist of only the current high-level players and no one else. **** everyone else, right? They're just scrubs. The high-level players: they're the only ones who matter. They ARE the community, as far as they are concerned, and everyone else can go **** themselves.

 

[cutter]

Jack, the problem just goes back to Brawl. As much as we try to make the game competitive, there are just a ton of glaring fundamental problems.

We've had legitimate cries to ban Meta Knight, ban DDD's infinite, and ban Planking. I don't know about you, but that has to be a major red flag when the community wants three major things gone from the game over the couse of just a few months.

Personally, I've been against banning Meta Knight, DDD's infinite, and Planking because I think the metagame can tolerate that kind of stuff. But now the more and more I start thinking about it, we might have to go to some drastic measures just to keep the community intact. Possibly, but I hope not.

Considering I run tournaments in my small town of Roseburg, I try my best to make sure everyone has a good time. If I go a little too far over the line on something people would stop coming and the community would quickly fall apart. Our community here is pretty fragile and it's not a strong area like SoCal, TX, or AN. It also doesn't help too much here in Oregon when everything is spread out.

 

[Sosuke]

I haven't really noticed anything outside of Smashboards moderation until recently.

Basically, I'm just playing friendlies with this guy, having fun blah blah blah. And the T.V. next to us is being used for a tournement match. The guy I'm playing looks over to that T.V., so I do too. There was some Falco stalling by running away/laser/ phantasm (all that stuff) against an Olimar. They were both on their last stock, and the Falco was just running away and spamming while the Olimar was trying to catch up. The Falco just ran the timer and ended up winning. The Olimar player got pissed and starting this whole thing about how he would have reported the match if he wasn't playing against the TO. Everyone else is pretty much like: >_> . Both the players were "good" and were "well-known" pretty much. I have to admit, it was pretty lame. And he did sort of over react. I talked to the guy before the tournement and he was pretty nice. Regardless, I can still understand why he was mad. But it was just a small tournement. =/

Sure, playing to win. Awesome. But to the other guy its "playing to be gay". DDD chain grab, MK, planking, whatever. That stuff just pisses people off. It would be a little less annoying if the tactics themselves didn't give the opponent a huge advantage, but thats why people want to ban those things.

Competition brings out the worst in people sometimes. The people who are playing a lot of friendlies feel more a part of the community then the people that would be playing more tournement matches. In tournaments, everyone is a threat. In friendlies, who cares? Its just two guys playing Smash.
Friendlies just help form the community a lot imo. A lot more then other aspects I can think of.

 

[kevinw0w]

I agree with what's being said here. Brawl has a lot of huge problems, and there's always *******s to exploit them, and then use them in competition and then using "playing to win" as their excuse. It's really no fun, honestly. Sure, money is on the line but it's not a lot of money really. You're mostly playing for the title, respect, etc.

Playing smash and other video games is what we do in our spare time. For entertainment, relaxation, for FUN. sure you may find infinite cg'ing someone is great fun, but maybe not so much on the person being infinited.

Now just wait for some "pro" to come in here and call us scrubs.

 

[KevinM]

I won't come in and call you scrubs but I will say this.

Smash at this level is above all else, a competition, the top competitive level still remains close knit in Melee and Brawl because of the fact that the players at this level recognize this.

I'm sorry that playing to win or doing anything you can to be the best does not appeal to most players, but those aren't the people that competitive gaming is aimed at.

Edit: Sasuke, the cheap insults at smashboards moderation aren't necessary, you'd be surprised at the amount of work and dedication the moderating staff does to make people's visits enjoyable.

 

[Sosuke]

All I meant was that The whole Link/ Sonic dilemma was the only thing I noticed.

I didn't say SWF has bad moderators or anything like that.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

The mods here are okay, it's just some of them who make bad or rash decisions... I've seen some stuff I didn't raelly approave of, but oh well! Has nothing to do with me

 

[BombermanFanatic]

Health? Right now a good chunk of the community is sick with Tornado Fever.

 

[bobson]

Health? Right now a good chunk of the community is sick with Tornado Fever.

Looks more like a case of The Planks to me.

Edit: The mods here are actually better than average. There're a few discrepancies, like the "No talking about emulators" rule and the seemingly random and unprovoked deleting of avatars, but in general if you see a red name it's probably going to be attached to a reasonable and intelligent post, which is far more than can be said for 95% of the internet.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Yeah, but it's just those small imperfections that get to people. They're not perfect, but as authorities and judges, they should strive for it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

What I think most "competitive players" don't understand is that they aren't in a traditional sport, so traditional sporting rules can't apply 100% of the time. Let me explain.

If there is a really gay (by our standards) play that the Giants start using that pisses off another coach in the NFL, but is otherwise legal and even wins games, if that coach leaves (or let's go a step farther: if the team manager dissolves the team in protest!), what happens to the game? Not much. Either the coach is replaced or the team stops playing, but either way, there are plenty of people willing to take their places and so the games continue.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that people (the people that KevinM says aren't even aimed at by competitive gaming) get fed up with planking (or anything else) and leave the community. What happens? A lot. If the community destabilizes, the "pro" players are screwed: those scrub players feed the pot at large tournaments. Without the masses of non-pro players, the pro's can't make enough money off the game to justify being a pro. Imagine if the entire competitive community consisted only of the top, hell, 50 players. Most tournaments don't get massive sponsorships (WHOBO is a rarity, for instance), so the pot could only be, at 10$ a player, 500$. Divide that among Top 3, and you can't justify plane expenses, living expenses, food expenses... hell, the tournament probably would have trouble paying for itself.

Without a stable community to make up for a lack of endorsements and sponsorships (remember: Brawl isn't even on the MLG Circuit this year, and probably won't be next year), there isn't enough action to even get the top players to go OoS. All the sudden, the tournament scene is all but gone. Am I naive enough to think that every single player is going to have the heft in the community of the M2K's and Azen's? No, of course not. But not everyone going to a massive 200+ man tournament is going to be willing to repeatedly give their money to the pros if they aren't enjoying themselves, and so the health of the game, at some point, needs to take priority. At some point, if we don't make a few calculated concessions, playing EXCLUSIVELY to win will kill a community that isn't already stable to begin with.

 

[Gotham7]

What I think most "competitive players" don't understand is that they aren't in a traditional sport, so traditional sporting rules can't apply 100% of the time. Let me explain.

If there is a really gay (by our standards) play that the Patriots start using that pisses off another coach in the NFL, but is otherwise legal and even wins games, if that coach leaves (or let's go a step farther: if the team manager dissolves the team in protest!), what happens to the game? Not much. Either the coach is replaced or the team stops playing, but either way, there are plenty of people willing to take their places and so the games continue.

Fixed.

Giants FTW!

 

[KevinM]

9 times out of 10 Jack the scrubs aren't going to be planked against because we don't need it to win against them.

No offense meant, but who does Plank actually plank against, people like SK92, and Azen.. I have never heard of a discrepancy where someone like Plank planked someone that was considerably lower skilled. The reason being is we simply don't have too.

The only people that actually use this tactic and complain are scrubs themselves, they won't make it to the top 10, so I don't see how their arguments are valid.

 

[Plairnkk]

I've never planked azen. He's too smart and beats it.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I somewhat agree.

To the people saying: if you have to do so much to make a game competitive, maybe it shouldn't be competitive.

I respond: look up on wikipedia (or anywhere) about why Basketball added the 24 second shot clock to games. I guess Basketball was a game not worth playing competitively (actually I guess every sport is this way, heck, even CHESS has tons of rules).

I always have a blast at tournaments.

Most people I talk to likewise have a blast at tournaments. I think the community is fine, its just the perception to people who haven't been to tournaments yet that is a problem.

Also, I think the rule debates in Smash is a component of what keeps this game alive, because everyone likes to argue about it and it creates very interesting disputes that people become invested and interested in.

 

[Zhamy]

Question: How many people have dropped Brawl because of planking, DDD's infinite, and MK?

Answer: A few.

Question: How many people are still playing Brawl in spite of or despite all that?

Answer: A helluva lot more.

Of course different sides of the community are going to have different views. But I don't see scrubs leaving left and right because of one thing that is/isn't banned. They still show up at tournaments, they still play this game, they still enjoy it. If anything, it's just a rough time, a bump in the road.

 

[animeblitzballa33]

I guess there are good things about being in iowa. We have a decent numbered crowd around and non of them suck. No one picks mk just cause they lost a match or any of that bs. I have thought about this recently tho. Why cant people just play the game. Do people not care about their pride. I know when i play i do so in the mindset that i hope that people can look at the match and say that i am a good player. I look for others respect when i play, not just meaningless victories by cheap shoting my opponent. You dont need to win for that to happen, even tho that does help lol. But the respectable people in the community will understand what a good player is. And its not the scrubs who pick mk just cause they lost one match or stall and what not.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

What I think most "competitive players" don't understand is that they aren't in a traditional sport, so traditional sporting rules can't apply 100% of the time. Let me explain.

If there is a really gay (by our standards) play that the Giants start using that pisses off another coach in the NFL, but is otherwise legal and even wins games, if that coach leaves (or let's go a step farther: if the team manager dissolves the team in protest!), what happens to the game? Not much. Either the coach is replaced or the team stops playing, but either way, there are plenty of people willing to take their places and so the games continue.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that people (the people that KevinM says aren't even aimed at by competitive gaming) get fed up with planking (or anything else) and leave the community. What happens? A lot. If the community destabilizes, the "pro" players are screwed: those scrub players feed the pot at large tournaments. Without the masses of non-pro players, the pro's can't make enough money off the game to justify being a pro. Imagine if the entire competitive community consisted only of the top, hell, 50 players. Most tournaments don't get massive sponsorships (WHOBO is a rarity, for instance), so the pot could only be, at 10$ a player, 500$. Divide that among Top 3, and you can't justify plane expenses, living expenses, food expenses... hell, the tournament probably would have trouble paying for itself.

Without a stable community to make up for a lack of endorsements and sponsorships (remember: Brawl isn't even on the MLG Circuit this year, and probably won't be next year), there isn't enough action to even get the top players to go OoS. All the sudden, the tournament scene is all but gone. Am I naive enough to think that every single player is going to have the heft in the community of the M2K's and Azen's? No, of course not. But not everyone going to a massive 200+ man tournament is going to be willing to repeatedly give their money to the pros if they aren't enjoying themselves, and so the health of the game, at some point, needs to take priority. At some point, if we don't make a few calculated concessions, playing EXCLUSIVELY to win will kill a community that isn't already stable to begin with.

Little off-topic, but I'd say a majority of pros don't don't even play for money. Certainly a majority of PLAYERS don't.

 

[Plairnkk]

Melee pros played for fun.

Brawl pros play for money.

Enough said.

 

[ZeonStar]

Brawl+

No more chaingrabs

Balance

Consistency

Momentum

No more glitchy bull****

Frustration gone (THINK OF YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE)*no moar heart attacks*

 

[AlphaZealot]

Melee pros played for fun.

Brawl pros play for money.

Enough said.

Ken? Isai? Money.

Azen? Not for money.

Plank you should know better then to stereotype entire groups of people...especially around something like what video game they play.

 

[Plairnkk]

Ken? Isai? Money.

Azen? Not for money.

Plank you should know better then to stereotype entire groups of people...especially around something like what video game they play.

I will always stereotype entire groups of people. I am aware that there will always be exceptions to the rule, but the generalization can still be accurate as a whole.

I'm just saying there are wayyyy more pros playing Brawl with complete hatred and disdain for the game than I ever heard of in melee.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I've never planked azen. He's too smart and beats it.

I am sigging this right freaking now.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The reason people do "gay" things is because if you are at a tournament playing somebody who you know will beat you if you don't do the "gay" thing, why wouldn't you do it. Brawl, in a tournament, is a competition. In competitions, people do anything and everything to win, unless they honestly don't care for the money (these are an extreme rarity). You will be more respected in a community or a region where you win every tournament even if you do gay things, then if you get lower placings every tournament and play 100% legit.

 

[animeblitzballa33]

The reason people do "gay" things is because if you are at a tournament playing somebody who you know will beat you if you don't do the "gay" thing, why wouldn't you do it. Brawl, in a tournament, is a competition. In competitions, people do anything and everything to win, unless they honestly don't care for the money (these are an extreme rarity). You will be more respected in a community or a region where you win every tournament even if you do gay things, then if you get lower placings every tournament and play 100% legit.

This is so false. As a player you should be able to distiguish a good player apart from a scrub who uses "gay" things to win unless you yourself is a scrub. You cant that you honestly have more respect for mk who planked for every victory in a tourny to win then someone with actall skill who got 2nd because the other guy was a douche.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I will always stereotype entire groups of people. I am aware that there will always be exceptions to the rule, but the generalization can still be accurate as a whole.

I'm just saying there are wayyyy more pros playing Brawl with complete hatred and disdain for the game than I ever heard of in melee.

The problem is defining 'pro' though. I knew people in Melee that mainly played because of money. I know people in Brawl who do the same. This is a phenomenon that exists in every competitive game with money involved (think of Terrel Owens and football). So, unless you can define pro and put some real numbers on people in Brawl who play for money, and then look at the same group of people in Melee, I don't think its really possible to discern which game has more people doing what. I do think early on in Brawl (and this is still sorta early) there was a group of Melee vets who just played for money while hating the game, but most of them eventually quit and now I can only think of less than a handful of people who play just for the money, which is roughly the same amount I can think of for Melee.

 

[Lovage]

I'm just saying there are wayyyy more pros playing Brawl with complete hatred and disdain for the game than I ever heard of in melee.

good point. I never thought of it like that (very true)

 

[SpongeBathBill]

This is so false. As a player you should be able to distiguish a good player apart from a scrub who uses "gay" things to win unless you yourself is a scrub. You cant that you honestly have more respect for mk who planked for every victory in a tourny to win then someone with actall skill who got 2nd because the other guy was a douche.

If the guy who got 2nd can't get past one single, legal technique, not only will he not have the community's respect, he won't get 2nd, either.

On the flip side of that coin...

I've never planked azen. He's too smart and beats it.

I am sigging this right freaking now.

...innovators who learn to kill "gay" techniques are highly lauded, especially when it's something this irritating. ;D

Has this thread half-devolved into another planking debate?

 

[animeblitzballa33]

I was only using that as an example, i am fully aware that someone prolly wont win a tourny based on some douchy technique, what the point is that those people that do those types of things should not be getting respect. I dont understand how one could. Is the smash world only able to see respect through tourny wins, if so then alot of people are losing out on their due respect. People that actually try to better themselves rather then simply winning.

 

[Gotham7]

The problem is defining 'pro' though. I knew people in Melee that mainly played because of money. I know people in Brawl who do the same. This is a phenomenon that exists in every competitive game with money involved (think of Terrel Owens and football). So, unless you can define pro and put some real numbers on people in Brawl who play for money, and then look at the same group of people in Melee, I don't think its really possible to discern which game has more people doing what. I do think early on in Brawl (and this is still sorta early) there was a group of Melee vets who just played for money while hating the game, but most of them eventually quit and now I can only think of less than a handful of people who play just for the money, which is roughly the same amount I can think of for Melee.

To every degree players play for both money and passion. Sure some people use cheap tactics to win but to that degree how many more don't use those tactics?

Also TO plays for the love of the game, he is greedy but that is because he wants to win. The guy isn't a team player but he doesn't play for money (entirely).

 

[AvaricePanda]

People act as if everyone planks. I can only think of three memorable sets (and one was basically a joke) where people anywhere near the top level planked.

Zhamy basically summed it up. We're just at a rough time. People need to stop thinking that the community is going to destabilize just because of planking or any other character or technique that's "overpowering". The community isn't stupid enough to let the competitive scene fall apart just because of a few techniques.

 

[Melomaniacal]

That's funny, because I feel like the community is thriving and, well, just good altogether. The boards, however, is different. The boards like to complain about problems that don't exist, thus causing this whole thought that the community is in trouble, or we're facing such super serious issues. Outside the boards, I don't see much of that. Maybe it's just my area, but that's how I see it.

Basically, the actual community is fine, but the boards... not so much. A few people complain about nothing, then everyone complains about nothing, the problem being that a lot of those people don't actually leave the boards.

 

[thanortinzak]

Who cares about the "community health" of Smash? I'm not gonna let something like "community health" change the metagame or how the game is played. Personally, I don't plank (because it CAN be punished), but have no objections to someone who does so. I don't care if it shrinks the smash community. There will still be people who want to play, and that's good enough. Plus, the community isn't even doing bad. It's actually thriving.

Also, learn to play to win, John.

 

[Zenjamin]

Seriously, people. When is having a healthy gaming community going to be important to anyone? Doing your best is commendable, and sandbagging sucks, but doing anything to win, even if it means completely destabilizing the community as a whole? I think we need to start re-thinking our priorities if we want our community to thrive the way it once did.

You are right.
THe community, and its ability to evolve with the game is most important....

The problem is.... the game really is at a standstill in its evolution process.
There are too many base discrepencies btwettn the characters. The lower half of the cast will never compete with the upper crust.

Camping is an effective tatic. People are going to use it. Period.




The best way for success, is for the community, and its passion for being the best player they can be, to evolve with the meta game.



That just isnt going to happen like it did with melee.

Solution:
Brawl+
See sig.

 

[AvaricePanda]

This isn't where you advertise Brawl+.

The lower half of the cast wasn't able to compete with the upper half in Melee, or really any other competitive game out there (and saying will never compete seems like a hyperbole, they can compete but it's really difficult). This feature isn't unique in Brawl.

Camping is an effective tactic. A couple months ago, it was super effective. The more people camp, the more people are able to deal with it. Yeah people are going to use it because it can be effective (for characters like Falco, it often forces approaches), but camping is hardly near the center of the metagame.

 

[Zenjamin]

This isn't where you advertise Brawl+.

The lower half of the cast wasn't able to compete with the upper half in Melee, or really any other competitive game out there (and saying will never compete seems like a hyperbole, they can compete but it's really difficult). This feature isn't unique in Brawl.

About 40% of successful tournament players use the two top characters.
About 3% of successful tournament players use the bottom 12 characters.

You dont think that disparity is something to take note of?

Camping is an effective tactic. A couple months ago, it was super effective. The more people camp, the more people are able to deal with it. Yeah people are going to use it because it can be effective (for characters like Falco, it often forces approaches), but camping is hardly near the center of the metagame.

Not if you dont decide to use it.... If you do decide to use it, yes it does become the center of the metagame, and everything else you do uses that foundation as a context point.

 

[AvaricePanda]

What's your definition of successful, though?

Some low-tier mains don't view successful as winning a major tournament, they view it as placing as high as possible, proving that their main is a force to be reckoned with, being their best with their main, etc.,

As far as placing high, yes, top characters place better (although I'm not exactly sure where you got that information). However, how is this unique to Brawl? Melee was nearly the same way, albeit a little bit better, and while some competitive games are more balanced, quite a bit of others aren't. The fact that there isn't as much character diversity as you'd like doesn't destroy community health.

And that example didn't seem to make sense. If I decide to CG, does that make chaingrabs the center of the metagame? If I decide to camp, that's how I'm going to play in that point of time in the match, which isn't the meta-game. Plus, camping is getting easier to deal with.

 

[Zenjamin]

What's your definition of successful, though?

I dont know exactly how they calculate it, but it looks quite legit. Even in this context.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

And that example didn't seem to make sense. If I decide to CG, does that make chaingrabs the center of the metagame?

It is if you are the IceClimbers and that is how you get your kills.

How you get your kills, and how you keep yourself safe... that is apart of your meta-game.
In melee or B+, this is constantly changing.... the positional power is constantly changing....

However, in brawl, if someone has a set stragety they can pretty much stick to it the entire game.
This is because the basic mechanics in brawl that make air approaches an unviable option for many charcters. And those, like wario, who do have good viable airial approaches have no good ground approaches....
Wario is perhaps not the best exmple, as I am of the opinon that he is a good overall character, on par with the top three, but even sword characters



But you see my point.... There are certian aspects of this game that just... will not change.
The only way to keep the position of power shifting to let the skill of the players to shine throug is to limit things through rules.

But you can only go so far with rules.... Because like the War on Terror, banning certian tactics just isnt a viable option.

 

[AvaricePanda]

There are certain aspects of every game that don't change. In melee, if someone has a set strategy, they can basically stick to it the entire game. Chaingrabs are a huge part of Ice Climbers gameplay in both Brawl and Melee.

You're being really vague. How is the positional power in Melee constantly changing and Brawl's isn't? How are air approaches an unviable option because of the basic mechanics in brawl? You're throwing out statements and not elaborating, and it's really confusing.

Plus, I think you're mistaken with the definition of meta-game. It's the highest level of play overall for the game and for the individual characters. Individual players don't have a metagame. If your personal game centers around camping, that doesn't mean the metagame of your character does.

You've also yet to comment about my statements of how camping is getting easier to deal with, and how the best characters of any competitive game are always the most used in competition, and how that feature isn't Brawl exclusive. And really, it's not only the top two characters that win tournaments. According to that list, 16 characters all have feasible chances of winning a tournament.

And I still don't understand how this relates to community health.