Werewolves of Miller's Hollow | Game Over! Who could have possibly won?!?!???!

[Cello_Marl]

In the best case the VI claims in a lylo situation, where a confirmed unlynchable townie can tip the game greatly into town's favour. At the moment it seems pretty worthless for the VI to claim.

I understand the sentiment here, but I don't think you thought that through. In a lylo situation, there is no reason for a wolf to not soft-claim VI. If it's a proper lylo, or even mylo, then we can't have the VI come forward to confirm him/herself because that would tie the scum/town vote. Without the threat of being immediately outed by the existence of a VI, any wolf is free to soft claim. Further, a single soft-claim, as was mentioned before, is unconfirmable. A dual-soft claim is workable, since we can consider the third person that did not soft-claim is at the very least not aligned with the same scum faction that claimed, but that would be banking on a role existing in the game to improve a 1/3 shot to a 1/2.

The only reason this works at all is because, right now, the wolves can't claim safely. Yes, it would be nice to have a confirmed townie at lylo, but that just can't happen.

Have you even read the description of the roles? The witch knows who will be the nightkill before he gets to choose whether he wants to safe the targeted player or not - which he can do only once in the entire game. He doesn't have to make any smarter decisions than a normal Doc.

The Witch's decisions boil down to three key points: 1) In what order do I use my potions, 2) Should I believe that the person I saved is town (after all, the wolves may very well try to imprint the idea that a saved person is town, then gambit and hit one of their own. Much like you could be doing right now), and 3) Who do I kill?

These all require much more consideration than a normal doctor or cop. Personally, I'd use the life potion before death, but that's just me.

Also, at this point I'm 100% against lynching Mentos.

I'd normally be fine with that sentiment, but by your own admission you aren't even sure what the case is against him.

Summarized, the problem is the dissonance between what he's trying to portray himself as, and what he's done up to this point.

May, I think he's scummy. I don't have a percent to attach to it.

 

[mentosman8]

Mayling, in response to your comments about going back to the roles, read what I said again. I'll even quote it for you.

Pretty much the main thing I noticed when I looked at the role post(which I still haven't read in full detail) was guaranteed roles(fortune teller/witch/werewolves)

As I said, I didn't care to read the exact descriptions of every possible role. However, we knew the villager/fortune teller/witch/werewolves were in the game, so I chose to read those so I knew what was definitely there. The rest I'll worry about if/when they are shown to exist, especially with them all being town roles(with the exception of the one possible indie, and the lovers quirk McFox pointed out to me), don't see much reason to worry about knowing everything. I don't need to know the exact setup in a semi-open game, just what we definitely have going for/against us. The Piper is the only other role I paid any attention to cuz I saw "oh, different color, potential threat." Everything else I've read has just been as they've come up.

 

[Cello_Marl]

unvote vote Meta-Kirby

 

[KevinM]

There ya go bring the heat!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

voat: mettuh-kurbee

 

[McFox]

I think it would be more useful later on. It would act almost like a death but we wouldn't lose the townies. And deaths net us alot of info based on the bandwagon. Whereas right now, we wouldn't get much info just tht cleared townie.

Can I get a "duh"? 100% correct here. Think about it in L4S terms. It's D4 or whatever, and we've done horribly, so mafia is close to winning. They push someone to be lynched, but since town is disheveled, they trust at least a few of the mafia. Except that the lynch they're pushing is the VI! VI never claims, and allows himself to be "lynched," and by "lynched," I actually mean no-lynched, since that's what happens. Sure, mafia get their nightkill, but we've potentially got one more day, and that close to endgame, who decided to push the VI towards a lynch would be very valuable information.

Leaving my vote on Cello, for the fact that I even had to spell this out. How much does a confirmed townie help us on D1? They know the same amount as the rest of us: nothing. And they'll be sure to be NKed soon.

Today and Cacti have only posted twice in the thread (and failed to contribute much, as in not a big post). We definitely need to learn from our mistakes in l4s and force them to talk. More Today or Cacti votes pls. (However, I feel confident Today is scum, and from what I've seen Cacti is just not very active it seems. Correct me if wrong, pls)

Interested in how you're so confident that Today is scum based on a grand total of 2 posts. Unless it's the fact that she only has 2 posts that makes you think she's scummy. But from the sounds of your post, you seem to indicate that it's the content of her posts that makes her scummy to you. Please go into further detail.

 

[Mayling]

i can has colors too

Heyo! I'm confirming as well! Thanks!

As for the sheriff thing.. I'm fine for just dropping it. Besides, if we did give a town member sheriff they'll just be wolf bait.

It sounds like to me then that there just should be no sheriff.
And just like how McFox said
@Gheb ppl, Mafia benefits from sheriff. Because like he stated. Sheriff could actually use it against our favor and end up getting townies lynched. Another reason is that a Mafia member can take the role of sheriff and lynch townies. Not only that, having a sheriff means they can be target for night kill. So we end up losing a townie.
Also, even if we did end up having sheriff. Would the person they elect be announced? What if sheriff gives it to a mafia member?
Personally, I think it's too risky.

Mcfox, it's both the content of her posts and the fact she only has two posts that makes her scummy in my eyes.

As you can see from what I quoted, in her first post she talks about how we should drop the sheriff process. Even tho there's a general consensus that sheriff should be dropped after her first post, in her second post, she brings back up sheriff, alluding to more reasons why it would be bad. Not only do these reasons parrot what people have been saying (she even admits it in her post), but also has general common sense strude throughout as if to buffer and fatten up her post.

Look at the light blue. How common sense/filler can you get?

 

[Mayling]

btw, why did this wagon on metakirby appear? is it his lack of posts or something you guys saw in his posts?

 

[M.K]

Lol votes. Pressure votes? Kay.
So basically my read on Cello is uber weird. First of all, he's trying to fish the hell out of all roles possible. Can't blame him, but then again, it's suspicious and I don't like it. Something I noticed however, is that anyone that was like "OMG VILLAGE IDIOT DONT CLAIM" (including myself) basically pseudoclaimed themselves. Pierre stated that anyone who refers to the power, if they ARE the idiot, gets hit with the consequences. My thinking is: Didn't we all just do that?
Today needs to post more please. One confirmation post, the other common sense post? Lol.
Vote: Today Pressure vote. Please post something substantial to help us.
Can I ask someone (Mayling/Cello) how they think about Mentos? I'm sorry, I didn't quite read well enough the last few pages and I missed the whole case against him! :O Sorry. What I did realize though, is that half the people are like "Yay lynch" and the other half are like "Oh, no, never I'll never do that".
Just going to say Vocal =/= Helpful in all cases. Certainly Quiet < Vocal, because Quiet is just ANNOYING in Mafia games. Cacti and Today, step it up PLEASE.

@KevinM, what is your general read on the game so far? Who's scum?

 

[Cello_Marl]

McFox, you don't know how sad it makes me to have to work on the same team as you.

Since you seem so fixated on your loss with L4S, let's think about what that you just said.
Let's assume there are 5 townies (one of which is the village idiot) and 3 wolves. This is called MyLo, a situation which you are intimately familiar with.

If the VI gets lynched, then yes, he "isn't dead". But, he doesn't have a vote. He loses it. The wolves will then kill someone else. At that point, their vote capability equals towns, and they can force a victory. The only way such an event would be salvageable would be if the witch was still alive and had his/her life potion.

If it was an actual lylo, we'd flat out lose.

What makes you so frustrating is that it's obvious you either aren't thinking out how these scenarios will/can play out, or you just don't know how to. If you want me to explain something to you, ask me, and I'll enlighten you.


@MetaKirby Most of them just said the name of the role, which as far as I can tell, doesn't actually qualify for purposes of outing the VI. On the other hand, you actually did just refer to the power by saying "refer to the power".

 

[McFox]

You realize I never used the terms "mylo" or "lylo" right? I just said if it were close to endgame. Yes he'd lose his vote, but if we were CLOSE to endgame and a bunch of mafia tried to push a lynch on a townie, and that townie didn't end up getting lynched, mafia has one less kill than they were planning. They are then forced into a position they weren't ready for, which could benefit town.

Don't be so quick to insult my intelligence without taking the time to understand what I was saying. My point was simply that, the way I understand it, a VI role seems to have a lot more potential later than it would right now, where it would be basically useless.

If you do want to talk down to me though, here's something I'm clearly not getting. What are the parameters you're using to define "soft" and "hard" claiming, and why can't all of the werewolves just do the exact same thing that you did, where they say "Hey I'm the VI, just kidding." All it proves is that they aren't the VI (which isn't even guaranteed to be in the game at all). I'm seriously having trouble following how everyone soft-claiming (whatever that means in this case) will net us scum. Feel free to patronize.

Also:

You will be revealed to be the village idiot if you claim or refer to this power, or if your lynch is attempted (which will result in a No Lynch).

Meta, I took this to mean that if you claim or refer to this power as your own, you'd be outed. I could easily be wrong, looking back on it, in which case Cello may have gotten what he wanted anyway for the most part. But I figured it just meant claiming the power for yourself that would out you.

 

[Mayling]

Lol votes. Pressure votes? Kay.
So basically my read on Cello is uber weird. First of all, he's trying to fish the hell out of all roles possible. Can't blame him, but then again, it's suspicious and I don't like it. Something I noticed however, is that anyone that was like "OMG VILLAGE IDIOT DONT CLAIM" (including myself) basically pseudoclaimed themselves. Pierre stated that anyone who refers to the power, if they ARE the idiot, gets hit with the consequences. My thinking is: Didn't we all just do that?
Today needs to post more please. One confirmation post, the other common sense post? Lol.
Vote: Today Pressure vote. Please post something substantial to help us.
Can I ask someone (Mayling/Cello) how they think about Mentos? I'm sorry, I didn't quite read well enough the last few pages and I missed the whole case against him! :O Sorry. What I did realize though, is that half the people are like "Yay lynch" and the other half are like "Oh, no, never I'll never do that".
Just going to say Vocal =/= Helpful in all cases. Certainly Quiet < Vocal, because Quiet is just ANNOYING in Mafia games. Cacti and Today, step it up PLEASE.

@KevinM, what is your general read on the game so far? Who's scum?

I don't mind telling you my opinion on mentos, but from how I read your post you are saying "I didn't read well enough. Can you tell me what you think about Mentos?" which makes me weary. If you feel you didn't read good enough (which you are yourself admitting), you should read, again and again if you have to. In fact, you claim to "miss the entire case on mentos" which spans quite a few posts.

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Cello seems to have alot of role shenanigans, and his/her posts kind of strike me the wrong way, but, at least right now, I'm convincing myself it's Cello's meta.

Some of these walls of text need to die.

Anyone who's thinking of lynching Mentos toDay IS a VI.

I officially withdraw my suspicion of Mac.

McFox is town.

Kevin's not as annoying as he usually is, but he hasn't posted much yet.

Unvote Xonar
Vote: Today

POSTNAON00B

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Not getting McFox as town. Would like to know how you arrived at this conclusion.

 

[McFox]

Kev is still officially V/LA, and has only been skimming. And wall-of-texts are better than nothing (literally, I mean it's better than having nothing). At least (most people) are in on the discussion currently. It's better to have everyone posting a lot than have everyone posting little. The more words someone writes, the more likely they are to slip up. And like mentos said, I'm glad the sheriff thing kicked RVS right in its ***.

 

[M.K]

I don't mind telling you my opinion on mentos, but from how I read your post you are saying "I didn't read well enough. Can you tell me what you think about Mentos?" which makes me weary. If you feel you didn't read good enough (which you are yourself admitting), you should read, again and again if you have to. In fact, you claim to "miss the entire case on mentos" which spans quite a few posts.

I know >.< Sorry, I'll go back and read more thoroughly tonight. I've been kinda busy and I hoped for just a quick summary D: But yeah, I shouldn't ask for that. I'll take the time to go back and read tonight! :D
(in school right now. people are staring at me, reading over my shoulder >.> "wtf is werewolves hollow lol fake and gay".

._.

 

[Mayling]

I know >.< Sorry, I'll go back and read more thoroughly tonight. I've been kinda busy and I hoped for just a quick summary D: But yeah, I shouldn't ask for that. I'll take the time to go back and read tonight! :D
(in school right now. people are staring at me, reading over my shoulder >.> "wtf is werewolves hollow lol fake and gay".

._.

...so you really just didn't read? uhh. I thought it was just a guise to get me to talk about mentos. >.>

Metakirby or Today should go toDay if either one doesn't step it up. Reminding me of Mister Eric (for those who are familiar with newbie 3). For now I'm sticking with Today since she has still failed to speak at all.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

First of all, a reply to NoDawg:

Have you even read the description of the roles? The witch knows who will be the nightkill before he gets to choose whether he wants to safe the targeted player or not - which he can do only once in the entire game. He doesn't have to make any smarter decisions than a normal Doc.

The witch only knows who gets killed AFTER she decides to use the potion. This means that you have to predict when exactly a valuable townie will die.

Now reading through posts, this tidbit stood out most.

Personally, I think you went back to the roles to see what information you could claim, to determine what information town could have with certainty. I'm sure you thought it was better to do that than to appear to be making assumptions. On that note, why aren't you thoroughly familiar with all the roles possibly present so you can make informed opinions on people's actions? Answer: you are, you just didn't want to appear foolish when it came to your "critique" of my actions, so you opted for a "my bad" out.

This is just PURE GUESS WORK. You're making so much work of just an ASSUMPTION. Overall your posts just contain so much fluff and are often unnecessarily complicated (wording) and that's **** annoying.

Some of these wall of texts are 90% fluff.

Vote: Cello I just don't like how quickly you follow intuition and assume so much even when there's nothing evident.

 

[M.K]

...so you really just didn't read? uhh. I thought it was just a guise to get me to talk about mentos. >.>

Metakirby or Today should go toDay if either one doesn't step it up. Reminding me of Mister Eric (for those who are familiar with newbie 3). For now I'm sticking with Today since she has still failed to speak at all.

Please don't blame me. =C I've had little time on the computer and I knew I had to post something as pressure votes mounted.
I promise I'll go back over the argument after sports practice (updating from phone).
Oh, May, please know one thing about me: I don't utilize tricks. I'm as straighforward as you can be. I don't use guises to mask the true meanings of my words, because I don't want people to take up posts being like "lolwut does this mean I don't even". I find that irritating in a game like this. In my opinion, tricky words = scum or scummy behavior if town. No point.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

unvote, vote: today

I don't really like how McFox is almost defending Today.

 

[Omis]

First of all, a reply to NoDawg:

The witch only knows who gets killed AFTER she decides to use the potion. This means that you have to predict when exactly a valuable townie will die.

Now reading through posts, this tidbit stood out most.


This is just PURE GUESS WORK. You're making so much work of just an ASSUMPTION. Overall your posts just contain so much fluff and are often unnecessarily complicated (wording) and that's **** annoying.

Some of these wall of texts are 90% fluff.

Vote: Cello I just don't like how quickly you follow intuition and assume so much even when there's nothing evident.

The bold is truth. I just really dont like how Cello admits to boosting his assumed activity by posting awkwardly worded replies and posting extra stuff to beef his post count.

Can we not rolephish the entire game, Cello? Some of the roles might not even be in the game. The ONLY roles we should think about right now are the ones indicated to be in the game.

 

[Pierre the Scarecrow]

Votecount:
Today (4) NoDAWG, Mayling, Kirbyoshi, Macman
Meta-Kirby (2) KevinM, Cello_Marl
Cello_Marl (2) McFox, Xonar
Xonar (1) Cacti

Not voting (4) mentosman8, Omis, Today, Meta-Kirby

A majority 7 of 13 votes is required to lynch.
The day will end at the latest on Thursday, February 19th, Noon EST.

Event 1: Election! has ended.

"What if we do not want to elect a Sheriff?"

"What if we accidentally... elect a Werewolf to be our Sheriff?"

"Yeah, making a Werewolf's opinion count twice in all things sounds like a bad idea."

"Yeah, I agree."

"Yup, me too."

Everyone agreed that there should be absolutely no Sheriff. Doesn't that mean that the Werewolves didn't want a Sheriff either? Maybe they didn't think this through...

Too late!

The role of Sheriff has been discarded.

 

[Pierre the Scarecrow]

That vote count looks pretty screwy. Wait until its been edited to take it as truth.

It has now been edited. Please accept this vote count as truth - if your vote is not where it is supposed to be, it is your responsibility to let me know. No whining about a drunk moderator.

 

[No one agrees with Gheb]

Request prods for Cacti and Today

Spoiler

There I go again...

I'd normally be fine with that sentiment, but by your own admission you aren't even sure what the case is against him.

Summarized, the problem is the dissonance between what he's trying to portray himself as, and what he's done up to this point.

Normally I would agree with you here. If you look at Mentos' most recent games you might think otherwise though. This is the way he played in Monster Mafia, SLJ2 and Left4Scum and in each case he flipped town. While doing this isn't enough to count a towntell it's still a point that I think should be raised. We mislynched Mentos twice because of that.

And my previous point remains the same: Lynching a vocal, active player is stupid when other players are given the chance to freely coast through the days. Some of them will take that opportunity and if they're still around later in the game it might be too late. Huge reason why town lost in FFVII and L4S.

Vote: Cello I just don't like how quickly you follow intuition and assume so much even when there's nothing evident.

The bold is truth. I just really dont like how Cello admits to boosting his assumed activity by posting awkwardly worded replies and posting extra stuff to beef his post count.

This is you parroting again, Omis. Put your money where your mouth is and vote please. I'd also like to hear who your other suspicions (ignoring the person you're voting for) are. Discussing and voting are the town's most powerful tools. There's no use to not use either of them!

 

[McFox]

unvote, vote: today

I don't really like how McFox is almost defending Today.

How the hell am I defending Today? I asked how Mayling got a scumtell from her two posts, and I just said in my last post that it's better to have everyone talking (responding to Kirb complaining about wall-o-texts) than to have people posting nothing, which is what Today is doing. I'm entirely for getting rid of coasters, Today included. But I'm still wary of Cello, he's made some very bold moves so far, and I haven't figured out if this complete switch from how he played his last game (L4S, where he was scum) is due to him getting a town-role this time, or whether he thinks he wouldn't be able to get away with the same strategy that won him the last game (doing nothing), and so is doing the opposite.

I would have no problem lynching Today, Cacti, or any other coasters, especially on D1.

 

[Omis]

Its not parroting because I posted the same sentiment earlier. I brought it up again because I wasnt the only one sharing it.

I dont vote until Im adamant

 

[Chaco]

/in to replace if you need me

 

[M.K]

@Pierre, I had a vote against Today in Post #129.

 

[KevinM]

Would rather go Omis if he's admitting to being useless.

 

[Omis]

Im admitting to be useless?
I missed that.
Just because Im stingy with my votes doesnt make me useless
Just how I play.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

There's nothing wrong with that as long as you're open about who you suspect.

This game already makes me wanna reread. Will do that soon. But we def need much more from Today, today.

 

[Omis]

Its pretty clear that I heavily disapprove of how Cello is playing the game. Rolephish, rolephish, rolephish.

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Does anyone have a town meta on Cello? Is he this gambit-y as town, normally?

 

[McFox]

Cello's a relatively new player. What I was pointing out earlier was that he's playing this game entirely oppositely from the way he played L4S. In L4S he coasted the entire game, having fewer posts than the game's mod. Here he's been very active, not to mention rolefishing excessively. I haven't put my finger on how I feel about this change in strategy yet.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I'm getting a strong town read from cello. Don't understand what everyone else is seeing that's making them think he's scum. Can someone enlighten me?

 

[Cello_Marl]

6. A lynch will occur when a majority has been reached. Day will end with a lynch.

A majority 7 of 13 votes is required to lynch.

@Pierre Asking for clarification: Lynch majority means which one?

a) majority of votes of votes available, or
b) majority of votes of people alive

Normally I would agree with you here. If you look at Mentos' most recent games you might think otherwise though. This is the way he played in Monster Mafia, SLJ2 and Left4Scum and in each case he flipped town. While doing this isn't enough to count a towntell it's still a point that I think should be raised. We mislynched Mentos twice because of that.

And my previous point remains the same: Lynching a vocal, active player is stupid when other players are given the chance to freely coast through the days. Some of them will take that opportunity and if they're still around later in the game it might be too late. Huge reason why town lost in FFVII and L4S.

This is actually a good deal of my argument. For this game, he's gone out of his way to make a big point about stepping up his game. But, as you say, he hasn't. The rest of what I've said about him are points that I think show that. Unless you're saying that you think he just simply CAN'T play better, but as people have a fairly good opinion of his older town play, I don't see that. Which one was the point that you thought should be raised?

We share the other opinion. I've stated my own intent in that regard. But, at the same time, when/if our lurkers decide to join this game, I'd like Mentos to be considered. Although, at this point, I'll be focusing more on MetaKirby, since I think there's actually a chance to lynch him.

I would have no problem lynching Today, Cacti, or any other coasters, especially on D1.

Then put your vote on one. You said you can't tell whether or not I'm scum, but I'm active. You'll figure it out eventually.

I am the Fortune Teller. That would be an example of a hard claim.
There are 5 people alive, and the Witch hasn't died. Four people claim to be Villagers. The fifth has, therefore, soft claimed Witch.
I suppose a soft claim would properly refer to something like, "I'm going to kill you tonight", meaning the person has soft claimed Vigilante in a normal setting, or Witch in this one. But, the 5 people/Witch scenario was what I mean by soft claim.

Xonar, do you think that makes me scummy or would you just rather not have me around?

@Omis (and McFox) The only rolefishing I've done was for VI. All I did with Cupido/Lovers was confirm (in my opinion at least) that I wasn't a lover.

@Kirbyoshi May has a book. It's out of date, though.

My vote on Meta-Kirby wasn't just pressure. I'd be willing to lynch him now.

 

[Cello_Marl]

Today was on a couple of hours ago, though I didn't notice whether or not she dropped by this thread; but if she did, surely she should realize she's in trouble.
I'm putting this in a separate post so it stands out more and no one can claim they missed it.
In about 10 minutes, I am going to vote for Day and put her at L-1.
Don't vote for her unless you specifically want to hammer her.

 

[Cello_Marl]

unvote vote Today

 

[McFox]

I'm getting a strong town read from cello. Don't understand what everyone else is seeing that's making them think he's scum. Can someone enlighten me?

I'm just on the fence about Cello, I have no kind of real case. Just a general D1 feeling. I'd agree, that a lot of what he's said seems obvTown. But then he says stuff like

Then put your vote on one. You said you can't tell whether or not I'm scum, but I'm active. You'll figure it out eventually.

I always see it as incredibly scummy whenever someone tells someone else (especially me) how to use their vote. Considering that, as town, a vote is your strongest weapon, one which the mafia will attempt to manipulate you into using against fellow townies. So I always see any attempt to sway someone's vote that forcefully to be scummy. Not to mention that he's exactly saying "Unvote me and vote someone else."

Also Mac, I asked you a question:

How the hell am I defending Today? [The rest of my post]

I don't like that you brought up what is basically a lie against me and then dropped it whenever I showed that it was wrong. Nudging?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I guess it wasn't exactly a defense. But it seemed like you were casting suspicion people for being suspicious of Today. Which seemed like a defense to me.

I still don't like it.

Also, I always tell people to vote me if they are suspect of me. I hate when people announce suspicions but don't put anything behind their words. I find that scum like to pussyfoot with their votes more then town do.

So even tho I rather Omis vote people, if he's already letting us know that he's rather cautious with his vote, than I guess it's ok as long as he doesn't use his not voting as an excuse not to tell us who he is suspicious of.