Weekly SBR Character Discussion: Metaknight

[LeeHarris]

I don't think Marth has an excellent recovery. It seems like he gets gimped almost as much as Ike does.

His side B has a decent pause that gives him time to react to an approaching opponent and it will give him sideways momentum without having to use his first jump. He can also fair while coming back and then use his second jump to sweetspot.

 

[Ignatius]

A Falco grabbed me out of the tornado online yesterday.

 

[LeeHarris]

Double jump to glide downwards to glide-attack works really well. You are high enough to where most opponents can't reach you and then you dive down uber fast for a powerful move that often kills.

 

[Overswarm]

This is going well. I'll do the synopsis later tonight and then a mod can move this thread to the character specific forum. Might want to put "SBR weekly character discussion: Metaknight" as the title.

I'll make another character tonight too.


Keep it up until then; any awesome MK stages that anyone knows about? I've always just seen him doing well on neutrals, no counterpicks seem to be that great for him except for one or two qualities (like the tornado on Luigi's Mansion).

I've also noticed that it becomes harder (barely) for MK to recover on stages like PS1 and PS2 where he can't glide under the stage.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

OS, just my opinion, but next time don't have a "guiding question," cause this thread seems more of a discussion of Metaknight's tornado than anything else ^_^'' Anyways, I just wanted to post some general thoughts about Metaknight in general before this thread finishes.

First off, his B attacks are incredible. Up B is a great KO move at times, and has awesome range when you know how to use it. Plus, his attack out of his glide is ALSO a great KO move, and if done correctly won't leave you open at all. His forward B, like others have said, is a great shield poke (and can also work as an anti-projectile spam move at times IMO), and he isn't open at all afterwards if you simply point it into the ground right before it ends. His regular B requires no further explanation as the attack is just incredible. But MK's down B seems to be his weakest special. The uses are limited to mindgames, and the attack doesn't even KO as well as most of his other moves. Plus, he is completely open after using it, as well as the move taking just a little bit too long to come out so its easily read. Although its my favorite of his specials, I don't expect to see this attack to come out too often.

His ground game is also superb. His is fast as hell, his dash attack is great for popping your enemy up, his running up-smash kills spotdodges, shields (to an extent), and catches the opponent most of the time if they airdodge trying to land on the ground. His grabs are awesome, his tilts have range and speed, his neutral A is surprisingly good, his downsmash is fast and powerful, and his forward smash, although hard to time, is also very powerful when used correctly.

MK's air game is good, but IMO its not incredible. He has plenty of ways to combo you in the air, but his KO ability isn't stellar with his aerials, although I've seen his up air and down air KO rather handily if they are rarely used throughout the fight.

In my opnion, MK is probably the best character in the game right now. His biggest "disadvantage," KOing, isn't as bad as it should be because his down smash is very easy to land, and quite powerful. Although, I think we'll be able to figure out how to beat him down the line, and he won't be quite so good after a little while (but he'll still be near the top).



Now, to beat MK, I've found a few solutions to work quite well. Of course, like others have said, MK is really vulnerable to projectile spamming. Other than that, I've also found the little bugger to be ridiculously easy to kill off the top with alot of characters. My personal favorite being Snake's up/down tilts or his up air. Each of them can simply decimate MK.

This may be common sense to most people, but I just want to point this out for the few who don't know. In my experiences so far in the game, I've noticed that every character is either a "heavy" or a "light" character. But I'm not solely talking about character weights. A "heavy" character dies to the sides much easier, because they either don't have a good enough recovery, they are easily edgeguarded, etc. But "heavy" characters will live until ridiculous percentages if you try to KO them from the top. But "light" characters are different. These guys have recoveries that are ridiculously good, so they are just simply stubborn as hell if you try to take them out from the sides (although they aren't as good at avoid side KOs as "heavy" characters are at avoiding top KOs). And if you want to take them out, just hit them upwards and watch them fly at 80%. I know this seems like the most obvious thing in the world, but I've found these distinctions to be much more clearly defined in Brawl than they were in Melee. In Brawl, Top vs Side is a BIG difference due to the different aerial styles and the variety of anti-air attacks made for KOing off the top. I've come to realize that my playstyle is drastically different for characters who are vulnerable to top KOs vs characters vulnerable to side KOs, and learning which category each character falls in (and to what extent they do) has really helped me counterpick and what not in tournaments.

 

[LeeHarris]

Nice post SP. I've never thought of characters in terms of "light" vs "heavy." That helps out a lot when thinking about an appropriate character to counter with. For example, I wouldn't use Snake or Pikachu against Link, but I'd use MK or ROB who can edgeguard or side KO him.

 

[Overswarm]

Haha... I'll not post a guiding question next time and we'll see how that goes


Yeah, vertical KOs are definitely the way to go against MK. Out of shield KOs seem to be the easiest way to go; I've seen many characters like snake simply run towards MK, shield, then u-tilt out of shield for the KO.

Does anyone have any good u-throws for knockouts in this game? I know ROB's is alright, but it still takes like 160% to finish off MK.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

If I recall correctly, Marth's up throw is pretty powerful. I've never tried the up throw on MK before, but it seems like it'd kill him at maybe 120%-140%. All I know is that throws in this game simply don't kill anymore. Well, throws that aren't Ness's backthrow, (occasionally) Lucario's forward throw, or DK's backthrow. I'm sure I missed a few, but for the most part throws suck now.

 

[Overswarm]

Someone should definitely figure out KO potential for throws in the game. Would make our lives so much easier.



Has anyone found much use for Metaknight's short hop dair + nair? I only dabble in Metaknight so I can figure out weaknesses, and I've found that simply running and doing a retreating dair + nair or doing a dair + nair through their shield is incredibly effective at wearing down your opponents shield.

You can also dair + tornado, I believe.

Instant shield poke o_o

 

[LeeHarris]

Squirtle's dthrow can vertical kill MK at decent %.

An amazing move against MK from what I've seen is G&W's down smash. It has the potential to go up or sideways but it's reach is awesome and the knockback is insane on someone like MK.

 

[Arash]

looks pretty good to me

 

[KishPrime]

I've killed MK at under 100% with Squirtle dthrow. Not always though...

 

[Overswarm]

Can a mod move this? I do not know which mods are able to >_>

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I refuse to listen to the likes of you, OS.

Stickied thread in the Tactical Discussion can be found here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4297589



Everything after this post is general discussion!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth vs Metaknight is the most epic, most fun, most intense match in SSBB.

That is all.

 

[S2]

Meta's speed also gives him an advantage against certain defensive spacing characters (Zelda comes to mind) if he uses good mindgames.

A smart Meta can run and stop into shield then counter or simply run in and often beat slower smash attacks with his running A. Obviously he can mix that up further by grabbing out of his run if the opponent is blocking too much.

An example is a camping Zelda. Once Meta's at medium range, he can do a number of things, as long as he's not stupidly running into a spaced f-smash or d-tilt. His moves are faster than the startup of some of her attacks. So mixing up your approaches with good mindgames can be a pain since he can either fake an approach and quickly counter, or simply beat her to the punch while she's in the startup animations for some of her longer spacing attacks.

Obviously the match can go either way, but Meta's speed can be a pain to Zelda if he's mixing up his approaches and is hard to read.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I think MK definitely has a shot at being top tier. He may not be able to camp, but his approach is really good because of his speed and size. His ground game is only decent, but his aerial game is really good. He builds up damage really fast, and can KO decently enough. Fsmash, Dsmash, Nair, and UpB are all good kill moves and he can also gimp people off the sides of stages by aggressively edgeguarding. His recovery is also really good with five midair jumps, two glides, and an array of special moves that can be used for recovery. At this point the only true downside I see to him is that he's light and can die at lower percentages. Also a few noticeably bad match-ups may hold him back.

 

[BDawgPHD]

The best thing about Meta Knight is that he's technically easy to use, he doesn't lack in any area except weight and projectiles, and he's hard to combo or chase. Take into account the fact that a good MK player will know the matchups and how to approach, and that Meta Knight can basically approach in so many different ways (meaning that at least one approach has to be effective against any given character), and also that he can camp if he needs/wants to, and you got a winning formula for top tier. I have to say I'm not a technically sound player, and I do make some mistakes - I make fewer when I play against good people - but I've had wonderful success with Meta Knight. The fact that he is not easily comboed or supressed means that the player in question can adapt to the situation a lot easier and after losing far less beforehand. If you were using Ivysaur against Marth, and you got your *** fair'd off the edge, you'd eventually learn to anticipate it, but you'd lose a stock or five. If you're Meta Knight playing against anyone, you'll learn a character's intricacies without losing stocks or even taking a whole lot of damage in some cases...and the same applies to an opponent's playing style.

EDIT: So yea, top of the tier, he seems like he's the Fox of Melee if you ask me

 

[0RLY]

Zamus' fthrow kills at... 190% That's all I have to say for now.

 

[boom-man97]

Meta doesn't have to attack to cancel the lag from upb - he can B-cancel it at a much higher height and land into an attack, or he can upb into directly landing on a platform.

Can anybody confirm that his glide-A attack's shield stun lasts longer than it takes for him to pull out another attack if he does it close enough to the ground?

Side note, I've killed people with the final hit of tornado upwards at 130% on Battlefield. Granted, they were nearly offscreen =p

ive been working on a tornado roof kill combo but its tough against a human

 

[RDK]

This has probably already said, but MK's d-throws into f-air is a great and fairly accessible combo, but is especially good against bigger characters (more surface area) and floaty characters.

MK's n-air, when timed right, has good priority as an edgeguard over things like the space animals' side-B. His recovery is good to pick off a poorly timed airdodge or an attempt to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[BDawgPHD]

ive been working on a tornado roof kill combo but its tough against a human

I've done this against a human so many times that I stopped having an orgasm after each and every one.

 

[Rockin]

Just wanted to say a few things

On another note, has anybody experienced problems with MK's glide as a stalling mechanic? I'm pretty much able to go under any level whenever I want, and I only spent a few minutes practicing it. I don't use it to stall personally, but it could be a real problem on levels like Corneria where you can go all the way across the level easily and safely. I don't know how many tournies will use Corneria in Brawl, but I definitely had zero problems recovering because I could just go places my opponent had no hope of touching me. MK also enjoys this privilege on many other stages; any time he's pushed near the boundaries of the level, he can use his glide to recover absurdly high or low, beyond the movement capabilities of any opponent besides himself.

It's difficult to use the glide as a stall. The only way to possibly do it is by holding on the ledge, gliding under to the other side of the ledge. The only reason this is hard because you need momentum to glide across a successful distance, which there really isn't enough, even if you quick jump off and quickly glide, you'll need to go down a bit, which you may risk killing yourself. Also, some opponents could possibly punish this by going to the other side and doing a quick fair, bouncing you to the ceiling and down to your deaths.

what characters are good against metaknight? Should I use DDD or metaknight ditto people?

If so, can anyone go in detail good strats that work against metaknight? Like how to get out of tornado, or safe ways to kill or edge guard him. Can I suck up his tornado.. I'm pretty sure I can down smash it with DDD. Anything would be good. He's my worst matchup probably.

I believe Dedede is an effective character for Meta, but it's good to use someone who gots projectiles and range as well (like like Marth or Ike).

And no, you can't suck up the tornado. The momentum would only push him a bit fast behind you, so it may be good if you use it near the ledge. Anytime you try to suck Meta (or possibly any character) certain (or maybe all attacks) could increase the speed slightly. For example, if you're Dedede and I'm Meta Knight, if you try to suck me up, I can dash and quickly do a grab without you trying to suck me because the momentum will give me slightly extra speed.

Diddy definitely creates problems for MK; if the MK uses his tornado on the ground, for instance, he can trip over any bananas that are lying there. IIRC, being hit with a banana while in the tornado will knock him out of it as well, but I can't be absolutely certain.

Diddy is also able to, fairly quickly, build up damage on MK, which is bad news for him considering his weight. Smart airdodges and forward+b'ing makes it tough to edgeguard Diddy as well, negating another one of MK's main strengths. Diddy also has one of the same strengths as MK, which is good range relative to his size.

I find it to be particularly tough, but I don't get much Diddy practice in general, so perhaps it's just my lack of experience shining through. Somebody mentioned somewhere that DK is good at fighting MK because of his high power, and Lucario may be good because of Aura and his general priority. Thoughts?

Diddy is a decent to fair matchup. His bananas could give Meta's problems, but it can as well for Diddy himself granted that Meta grabs the bananas. Meta can attack almost just as quick as Diddy when using the bananas. Some of the tactics Diddys uses can be predictable. This match is all about 'who's the smarter player'

Meta doesn't have to attack to cancel the lag from upb - he can B-cancel it at a much higher height and land into an attack, or he can upb into directly landing on a platform.

Can anybody confirm that his glide-A attack's shield stun lasts longer than it takes for him to pull out another attack if he does it close enough to the ground?

Side note, I've killed people with the final hit of tornado upwards at 130% on Battlefield. Granted, they were nearly offscreen =p

His glide A is quick, but his B-cancel is probably quicker. With both of those moves, you can do a quick grab or an attack. A really quick move is doing the Glide A and then hold down for his Standard A for his slashes.

Instead of commit, maybe it should be said that many of his moves are very LONG. You have time to react.

My Ike did very well against Squared's MK, and while he'll be the first to admit that he's still learning a lot, counter is effective enough, and you can outrange a lot of his moves. He dies at decent percents as well. Anyone else find this to be the case? What weaknesses does Ike have against MK?

It all depends on the player.

Noob Ikes (especially F smash spam) Vs. Metas = Meta Wins

Good/smart Ikes Vs. Meta = Ike wins

I think Ike's Main weakness is that some of his moves are laggy, like his up Smash. if you miss, you will be pushished. I think Meta's game in terms of beating Ike is by racking up damage. It's hard to edgeguard them because of the **** super armor they have.

First off, his B attacks are incredible. Up B is a great KO move at times, and has awesome range when you know how to use it. Plus, his attack out of his glide is ALSO a great KO move, and if done correctly won't leave you open at all. His forward B, like others have said, is a great shield poke (and can also work as an anti-projectile spam move at times IMO), and he isn't open at all afterwards if you simply point it into the ground right before it ends. His regular B requires no further explanation as the attack is just incredible. But MK's down B seems to be his weakest special. The uses are limited to mindgames, and the attack doesn't even KO as well as most of his other moves. Plus, he is completely open after using it, as well as the move taking just a little bit too long to come out so its easily read. Although its my favorite of his specials, I don't expect to see this attack to come out too often.

Actually, His Down B is somewhat useful. I'm probably one of the few that uses it XD

While yes, his Down B slash does not kill, it can set as another purpose. I like to use it for evasive manuverse or to just keep my opponent guessing by randomly dashing and then holding Down B till I reappear at the same place.

 

[Jewdo]

Metaknight IS a fast character, yes. He's incredibly hard to play against if you don't know what to do, especially since it's nigh impossible to punish a good MK player. I would say "shield grab more," since it works, but the truly good MK players know to expect this and will try to avoid it.

That said, the best counters (expect a no-duh statement) to MK are those that CAN punish him. You could try countering speed with speed by choosing another fast character, but the important thing is that the character has moves that out-range and/or out-prioritize his attacks (against both horizontal and vertical approaches). For this, Ike and Snake make great matches. Haven't tried Marth, but I hypothesize that he too will be able to handle MK with relative ease (sword dance/counter).

Crazy thing is, even though Ike is incredibly slow, he has the sheer power and range to smother most of MK's attacks. Continuous Jab-combos are wonderful for this (a strategy known by some as "The Machine"). His F-smash, D-smash, U-tilt, Aether, and dash attack also all have exceptional range, and thus out-range (if not out-prioritize) Meta Knight's comparably shorter-reach attacks. This gives Ike a great amount of stopping power against MK approaches, and he always has the option to just let MK through and land a Counter on him (in the case of Mach Tornado, etc). Ike is excellent at defensive melee combat. The important thing for Ike to remember, though, is that patience and timing are everything. Ike may be heavy, but if MK lands enough hits, he'll have no problem sending Ike to his doom.

The greatest weapon Snake has against any opponent is the uncertainty of whether or not, at any given moment, they're going to explode. Everybody plays Snake a little differently, but they all have one thing in common - they're creative with the explosives. With that in mind, I recommend the following:

If MK somehow manages to penetrate your defensive game, hold B and shield/spot-dodge right before he attacks. He'll hit the falling grenade instead of you, buying you some time to set up shop again (or hit him with something else if you're brave).

When in the air, if MK nullifies your air-dodging (by waiting on the ground or following the arc of your dodge), hold a grenade. Same principle applies here - you'll take damage too in this case, but Meta-knight is lighter and will fly much farther. Because of this, the MK should try to avoid you until you land and drop the grenade.

Long story short, grenades are awesome. Use bombs wisely.

 

[Jewdo]

[regarding counters to MK's Mach Tornado]
....If you use an attack (usually Dair) while directly over MK's head in the air it will work as well. >_>

Dropping Sonic's Up-B spring on a Mach Tornado is super-effective too. Afterwords, though, you're an obvious juggle target, so keep that in mind.

 

[Meta Ryu]

best way to stop metaknights tornado, is t use the tornado. Srry I main meta knight ^^/

butseriously you have to dodge outsdies' it's range until it stop, then you can get a free hit if your prepared. Just don't get hi!

 

[Shentao]

I don't really have any decent friends to smash with, but i main meta, and after watching a bunch of videos, I started WoPing with my Dair rather than my Fair, should I try to get in the habit of using Fair instead? It seems that Fair is what everyone mentions when WoPing, and arial combat in general.

 

[Seison]

Ok here is some Fox data for MK
On FD, when your moves are at full strength (no decay) and with no opponent DI
Fox's uncharged Usmash will kill MK at 82%
Fox's uncharged f-smash will kill MK from the center of FD at 114%
Fox's falling u-air will kill MK at 126%
Fox's u-tilt will kill MK at 157%

*all smashes done with the c-stick, and I exited practice mode and reentered for each trial to ensure that the moves were not affected by decay.

Also, Fox can stop the tornado from above with a d-air, as well as take MK down with him to follow up with an u-tilt or w/e you want. Fox is generally IMO a good match-up against MK, because he is the king of vertical kills.
HOWEVER, MK will out-prioritize him at the edge every time. So don't get hit off the stage, because if MK doesn't chase you with aerials, he will be waiting to punish any recovery that isn't perfect. Avoid overusing the illusion when recovering against meta, because he's fast enough to edge-hog a sweet spotted illusion, and if you >b onto the stage, there's a d-smash waiting for you at the end every time.

 

[Kel]

The toughest match I've played with MK so far is Snake. At Huge Johnz 3 I lost to two snakes in the bracket. The problem MK has with Snake is Snake's grenades. If Snake simply holds a grenade and shields, MK can't really attack because the trade off isn't worth it. All of MK's moves are multi-hit, low-percentage moves, so if MK tries to attack Snake when he has a grenade in hand, the outcome will be: MK takes the grenade hit and gives Snake a combo opportunity. Or MK and snake BOTH get hit by the explosion and MK is still disadvantaged because MK dies much easier than Snake. Snake's Utilt can kill MK at mid-range percents (around 100) and MK's best kill move against Snake is Dsmash. So Snake is harder for MK to deal with because MK dies at such a lower percent than Snake. Snake is just too strong and heavy for MK to deal with.

MK vs Marth isn't so bad in my opinion. If MK Dsmashes out of shield when Marth isn't expecting it, the Marth will DI poorly and die due to his terrible recovery. MK is pretty easy to grab the edge with (IE 'hugging'), so if MK just waits until Marth is about to Up B, he can grab the edge and kill Marth at low, low percents. Marth can tipper MK and MK will die early, but other than that, Marth's best killing move is a tippered Utilt. Marth's Utilt kills about 10% sooner than Marth's Usmash on the neutrals. It's really too early to judge, but I think MK will have the upper hand here in the future, if not already.

Also, I MK dittoed Brightside at Huge Johnz3. I was player port 2 and Brightside was player port 1. Every time the both of us tried to tornado, Brightside would win out over mine. His tornado always seemed to go through mine. I was thinking that it was just because of the initiation times of the tornado, but his kept hitting while mine didn't. The only explanation I could come up with is that the player port priorities are back. Player 1 has a slight advantage over 2, 2 over 3, and 3 over 4. I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence for his tornado to go through mine every time while mine never did. So if someone wants to MK ditto, and it's true that player port 1 has the advantage, spam tornado even MORE (is that possible? haha)

Oh, and I don't see why people don't just recover with MK's tornado more. MK's tornado has the horizontal length of MORE than FD. The tornado doesn't get too much vertical gain, but if you're horizontal to the playing field you should use the tornado's amazing priority to recover and rack up some percent.

I've also thought about suicide killing someone by jumping out while they're off the screen recovering, and tornadoing them in an attempt to carry them off the horizontal kill zone. They can DI it and avoid it (depending on the character) so this isn't really a feasible possibility, but it may come in handy if your opponent DIed terrible and you just want to nudge them so that they can't recover.

Edit: to Seison. Moves don't degenerate in training mode. They're always at full capacity. So you don't have to keep exiting training mode to see killing potentials. If you wanted to find degenerated move potentials you'd have to go into versus mode. And remember that if you do 8 other moves, your move you're wanting to test will be regenerated.

 

[R.Kefka]

A suggestion versus Snake: when you know he will grenade drop with his shield, just dash and grab. MK will slide past the grenade, so if you wait to throw, you can avoid detonating it.

Alternately, the grenade drop trick won't work if Snake is beneath a platform because of MK's up-throw. Just don't use any throw hits.

I think MK versus Marth heavily favors MK. Dodging and shield dropping into smashes and n-airs is super effective. Your relative range is also greater in almost every area.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No, it does not heavily favor MK.

Give me evidence like Kel did, but don't post statements with nothing to support them.

I can do that too. MK vs Marth is slightly in Marth's favor IMO.

And I can give evidence.

MK has solid rush down, but Marth can fair camp and d-tilt camp making it hard for MK to get in. Plus MK is light so he gets careless then he could die since all it takes is a tipper. Saying Marth's second best kill move is tipper U-tilt is ridiculous. All his smashes kill well. MK can gimp Marth, but Marth's recovery isn't terrible at all and Marth can hug MK too. Marth's edgeguarding isn't as good as MK's but it is **** good. If Marth plays safe through the use of fairs, f-tilt, d-tilt and punishing with Dancing Blade he can rack up damage very quickly and kill alot sooner then MK can.

MK can't afford to make as many mistake as Marth in this match since he is so much lighter. If he screws up once and his percent is high enough then he is dead.

But he has good speed and very good edgeguarding so he doesn't get rocked or anything he is just at slight disadvatange.

Plus if MK spams his D-smash it won't kill. MK has to save it for when he needs it. If he consistently uses it to punish then it's killing power is greatly reduced.

Also about hugging. This can be done to all characters recovery save for a few. Marth is one of the harder characters to do this to since his up b is so fast. It would only really work when Marth is very low. But as I said you can do the same to MK.

 

[AvariceX]

Sorry I don't have time at the moment to go through the entire thread so apologies in advance if any of this was already said. My brother plays MK so I get plenty of practice against him and I'm in agreement with most of you - he's high tier at least, but not unstoppable. About MK's Tornado - I play 3 characters (DDD, Ness, and ZSS) and these are the ways I've found to stop it:

DDD - dtilt sometimes cancels it out, sometimes goes right through it for damage to MK. Hitting him from above with a Waddle (unlikely to say the least) also seems to work. Utilt works as long as he's directly above you. That's about it though, Tornado seems to go through DDD's other attacks...maybe Jet Hammer, I never bother with that thing.

ZSS - down-b kick works if you get the right angle from above. I think forward-b works, and other than that the only other solution I could come up with was to throw one of my suit pieces down at him from above (situational).

Ness - Nothing. Maybe I'm just unlucky but I haven't found a single move of Ness' that can stop the tornado. Maybe his smashes work because disjointed hitboxes seem to be the way to stop him, but those attacks still don't have great range.

 

[R.Kefka]

Well, the point of using d-smash a lot is simply because it is useful as a spacing tool and it comes out quickly. You have other kill moves--up+b comes to mind--so using d-smash a lot doesn't really cripple your KO game.

Besides, you can always just start using tornado and grab-hits around mid percents to refresh DR, so what's the problem?

I'm sorry, but I take issue with the phrase "just spam (this move)." You make it sound like MK has no answers to f-airs and d-tilts when he actually does.

First off, both moves have enough lag that powershielding them into grabs, smashes, and tilts of your own is very feasible. If the Marth is *spamming* them, then you should have no problem finding the timing.

Second, for f-air, you can shield, drop and run into up-smash depending on his spacing. You could up-smash out of shield if you wanted, or you could jump out into f-air. Make your decision based on where he's positioned himself.

Oh, and f-smash. It is fantastic for punishing people who are *good*. It will pull you back slightly and has surprising vertical range. If they space an f-air for the tipper but you f-smash, you will be just out of range and will swat him away. Since you probably won't be using f-smash that much, it will be undiminished, and they will probably DI away for the sake of spacing, which helps your KO game tremendously.

D-tilt isn't that hard to punish either--tornado and float just above the d-tilt height. Or down+b when you *know* it's coming. Of course, you don't want to down+b when Marth is at low percent because your hit will recover *after* he does, so he can just hit you, but it's not so bad.

"If he screws up when his percent is high enough, he dies?" This is true of every character in every matchup, I believe. Yeah, Marth has tippers, but your goal is to get into a range where that can't happen. If you're failing at that, you're losing the matchup regardless, and need to work on your spacing. Plus you even have tools to punish perfect spacing, so I don't see it as that big of a deal.

I will agree with you on dancing blade. You can't crouch cancel it anymore, so it is just a huge pain to deal with. It probably doesn't beat the tornado, and it's a lot easier to shieldgrab and drop your shield into attacks, so maybe you can just weather the whole thing? I don't know, this move hasn't been spammed against me enough for me to figure out a strategy.

Avarice: Ness is small, so if you smash DI up and then airdodge down through the tornado, you can get below MK to punish him when the tornado ends.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course MK has answers.

Just like he has answers to Snake's stuff.

I mean let's look at why MK is at disadvantage to Snake. Because of all the camping? No, the camping is annoying but that's not the reason why. It's becuase of Snake's disjointed hitboxes, great reach, great power, and huge knockback. Snake does alot of damage and can stuff MK's approach and make it harder for him.

Marth can do the same.

Yeah, MK can get in, but this makes it harder for him. And MK has to make less mistakes then most other characters since he is one of the lightest characters in the game. The lighter you are the less you can screw-up and walk away from it.


MK's f-smash isn't hard to DI since he drws back and you know what he is going to do.

And I said before that MK can try to do something when Marth outpsaces him. The problem isn't options. The problem is that his options, but him at risk. While Marth is camping it's low risk/high reward. For MK to get in it's higher risk and TBH lower reward. Marth is stronger then MK and does more damage hit for hit. MK is good at pressure, but DI, airdodging and Marth's counter allows him to deal with that effectively.

Also Marth can stop MK's b moves on reaction thanks to counter, unless he is very close, but then Marth could just hit him out of them during start-up time. Not always, but most of the time.

It's not some horrible mis-match. It's only slight advantage to Marth.

 

[Terranrox]

Emblem Lord is completely right. Personally I strongly dislike his f smash because even though it may not make sense but I find the attack to be way too predictable so I frequently use the D Smash as an alternative whenever I play at MK. To me the drawing back of the sword animation takes way too long.

And it true once you mess up with Meta Knight its really tough getting back. Whenever and Snake is just so... so.. weird its kind of easier to mess up. As for Marth against Meta Knight match up I'm curious to see a really good Marth user in Brawl even though I also use Marth along with Meta Knight. (non of friends are crazy with Marth ....yet....) So I really hard for me to follow on what your frequent Marth's Anti- Meta Knight advises when you say counter will stop Meta Knight, the jab will stop the Meta Knight from grabbing you and etc. But have you considered all of Meta Knight's grab combos since as I am a Meta Knight user I know for sure that MK's grabs are superb and frequently follows with a chain or a combo. Even if you claim the jab can stop Meta Knight in his tracks have you considered that experienced players such as I have techniques for those situations such as the Dashing/ Sliding Shield Grabbing? (Dashing/ Shielding i'm bad with names but I'm positive you know what I mean)

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK has no grab combos.

What are you talking about?

He has set-ups. But that's it.

I never mentioned Marth's jab so I don't know where you got that from.

Of course MK can shield Marth's stuff. But what is shielding going to do for MK when Marth spaces well? All it did was keep him safe. Marth would still retain the advantage in postioning.

 

[Terranrox]

Whoop might have said it the wrong way...

What I'm trying to say is something is somewhere along the lines of Meta Knight's grabs can have a good follow up...
(Trust me I'm not a word wizard at all my AP classes' DBQ are atrocious)

And sorry about the jab thing it seems I might of mistaken you for another person... There is a lot of people with similar names to yours so I might have caught that name somewhere in the Marth section who claims jabs to be the solution to Meta Knight's grab.

 

[BDawgPHD]

MK is a broken character, and the only solution to a broken character is another broken character.

Ergo, the only thing that can be the "solution" to Meta Knight is Meta Knight....or Snake, or Pikachu....

 

[ollenberger121]

BDawgPHD.... so u loose to MK alot so u asume hes OP?

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawgPHD.... so u OWN PEOPLE WITH MK alot so u asume hes OP?

Yes, that is correct.