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Weekly Character Discussion: Toon Link

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Ørion

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Toon Link might just be BALANCED. wow.
I did not say Toon Link is balanced, I said he is better than average in most areas, so he is not balanced in the sense that he is average in every area. He has very good aerials, projectiles, recovery, etc., but they are not the best out of every character.
 

Eazy23

Smash Lord
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Ok, anyone who is NOT comparing toonlinks good traits to those who excel in the same areas are simply foolish. If you play some matches, and feel your spacing is perfect, have fun when you fight a DECENT marth in tourny. You will soon realize that your spacing is non exisitant. If Marth decides to perfect sheild your projectiles and fair you, u do what? Di away? only to be chased and tippered?
Be realisitc! I am a toonlink main myself, and I do very well even in very difficult matchups. However, it takes so much patience and there is such little room for error.
When toonlink doesnt win the range battle, just DONT DO IT. Stay in the air and toss bombs down.Vs snake of course you need to stay very high as to avoid the get f**cked uptilt.
The tough matches are doable, but don't for one second forget to take into account why toonlink loses certain matchups. It doesnt matter how visible his positive traits are, if someone else simpyl beats him in it....it must be noticed.
 

Onomanic

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too easy to kill with Link. But his recovery is amazing. His projectile game is amazing, speedy but floaty, a common combination. A great character and remotely familiar to Link. His aerials are amazing and easy to "combo" with. He is underrated. TOON LINK FOR TOP TIER! Also, his game was amazing.
 

fabianmo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
134
Toon Link is my main so I cant avoid posting something here.
I personally play the chars I play because I like them, not because of their potential in tournaments and such but I have to admit T.Link is a High-Top Char. Why? Well, as said before, he can play defensively as well as offensively, the thing is knowing when to spam and when to attack. I find myself playing both styles, depending on the situation, character and stage. For example, if I am playing a DDD, I spam the hell out of him and when he has rack up enough damage I tend to go physical. For what is playing lets say, MetaShark who is a FAST char that doesn't give you any chance to use projectiles I tend to use just bombs and occasional boomerangs and arrows and try to play more physical, basically bairs and the such.
By the way, his recovery isn't bad, especially if you know how to DI well. If his foe is awaiting on the edge he can throw a bomb and still be able to pull out another one and do his up-b. Or, he can throw that bomb and use his hookshot to recover.
The only bad thing I can see about him is the fact that he is so light he can die rather easily, but still if you know how to avoid most of the strong attacks that shouldn't be much of a problem.
 

Lobos

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Toon Link is diffidently a good character, the only characters that have taken me out of tournaments are MKs and Snakes. Even with that they have to be a good MK and Snake to take me out, and its also a close match. I still see some growth with TL, there is some new things that even I'm learning. Honestly I have TL placing mid high tier.
 

ImpactAR

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Here's my opinion with TL and the mindset.

The good thing about TL is that he have above average traits. The bad thing about TL is that he ONLY have above average traits that do not lead to one another well.

TL has good projectile game which is very flexible. However, his projectiles can only go so far and he can not throw them as fast as say Link. So you really know how to mix all of them up to create a good barrier.

TL is has good reliable combo and it really allows him to rack up damage. However, he doesn't have a good finish to his combos. Dair is VERY risky and most good player knows how to avoid the Dair situation by now. Most of the time you end TL combos with the move you started with. Bair anyone?

TL has some solid kill moves, which do require you to rack up some damage. But that shouldn't be a bad factor for TL because he is able to rack up damage. The problem is his kill moves stand alone. If you play TL you often feel like you're waiting for and guessing an opening and randomly throwing out smashes, Fairs, Uairs...whatever.

Some characters have a solid style of play. With TL, you can't play too linear. With DDD you want to run and spam like there is no tomorrow. With Snake you need to play the mid-range game. With Pit you have to get in close (somewhat). You have to understand what the other characters/players' strength are and play around adjust to it.

TL is a character your style of play is affected by the character you play since. With that it requires more experience from all sorts of players and characters. And that takes time.

I believe in the long run TL will be somewhere in the higher tier. But I don't think his above well roundedness will take him too top.
 

Ørion

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The good thing about TL is that he have above average traits. The bad thing about TL is that he ONLY have above average traits that do not lead to one another well.


TL is has good reliable combo and it really allows him to rack up damage. However, he doesn't have a good finish to his combos. Dair is VERY risky and most good player knows how to avoid the Dair situation by now. Most of the time you end TL combos with the move you started with. Bair anyone?
You seem to be contradicting yourself, you first say that his traits do not lead into each other well, then you say he has good reliable combos. Either way, I think you are downplaying his combos somewhat. It is true that dair is very risky and that you often finish with bair often, but bair is a decent killing move. No, it's not a smash but if the opponent has moderate damage and you do a bair combo, which racks up more damage, you have a good chance of killing with the bair.
 

ImpactAR

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How am I contradicting myself? The basis of his combo is repeated Bairs. That's my point. It doesn't lead into any decent KO moves. Bair can kill "well" if it's refreshed and even that requires a very high percentage.

EDIT: My apologies if I sound rude, I'm at work and I'm a bit busy. I'm sure it's a misunderstanding.
 

ZeroXMachine

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The problem is Toon Link is the problem with being the Jack of All Trades. His greatest strength (as most here would agree) is his versatility. His ability to fight well on both ends of the offensive-defensive tactic spectrum.

This versatility, however, is also his greatest "weakness" (and by "weakness," I mean the inability to be the best).

His versatility can easily dominate amateur settings, but when it comes to the professional scene, power-gaming takes over. Specializing in one or two categories usually succeeds more often than spreading your strengths.

As Jesiah was saying, he can't outspeed Metaknight, can't outrange ROB, can't outspace Marth and can't outpower Snake. It turns out that MK and Snake happen to be the most overused characters. Why? Because they specialize their strengths. Toon Link can fight off the majority of the cast, but when it comes to power gaming and specialization, the top characters (most specialized) really come out on top. And sadly, that's why Toon Link is playing second-fiddle to the top characters of the current metagame. ****.

He kinda reminds me of a Red Mage in early FFs ... or the Bard in D&D <shudder>.
 

ImpactAR

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Ørion,

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I guess ZeroXMachine saying TL is the Jack-of-All-Trade is a fair way to describe TL's play style. TL typically is even or better than the character he's playing against. So far against the top characters, TL is going to require practice and experience IMO before we'll see him place higher.
 

Allbrex

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Toon Link is right at the bottom of high tier. What keeps him out of top tier are the things that the top tier characters have, such as Meta Knights amazing priority/recovery+edgeguarding ability, Snake's insane killing ability. After that I personally think the high tier is next and the characters above him have more leverage overall as characters than Toonie does.

So we got:

Top:
Snake (far better killing capability)
Meta Knight (priority is beyond Tlinks)

High:
Marth (amazing spacing/killing ability beyond TLinks)
Game and Watch (here's a matchup that TLink can win)
R.O.B.
King Dedede (TLink can win this too)
Falco
Wario
Toon Link

Granted I've seen people put him on the top of the upper middle tier, or whatever the next tier is called (which I don't think is a stretch but is debatable). You can argue that point b/c Toon Link's tourney results aren't kickin, but he can hold his own vs the high tier characters. But at this point, he can't beat Snake or Meta Knight consistently which will keep him from getting the tournament results, much like Melee Peach.

He's a loaded character, which is why he's up there in the tiers, but he suffers (probably moreso than the guys above him on high tier) against the top tier pair.
 

Ørion

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Because of toon links inherent versatility and his, as stated above, jack of all trades nature, he will take longer to master than a character like snake or MK. Because of this, the snakes and mks will win the tournaments early on and TL will not because he requires much more study of strategy resulting in toon link being lower in the tier list (i mean lower than top tier, so like high tier, not low tier). IMO, however, once players start to really get down to toon link, he will be able to beat some of the MKs and Snakes who previously dominated him because he has so many strengths (strenghts, not the best in areas), he can use one of the strengths to defeat another character in an area that that character is weaker in.

However, it will take a while IMO till we see his true potential.
 

Johnknight1

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Pretty much what everyone before me said. Only people who are really "jack-of-all-trades" players will be really successful with this "jack-of-all-trades" character. Once we fully exploit this nature of Toon Link's and master it-he will TRULY be a force to be reckoned with!
 

Afro Boy2000

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Toon Link does well against pretty much all the best characters so there's no reason why he shouldn't be used more often in tournaments.
 

vanderzant

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From my experiences, Toon Link has all the characteristics that make up a good character. His projectiles, aerials, combos, smashes and speed are all great. As is mentioned to the death, all these traits are situational and easily worked around.

It will take a VERY skilled player to start winning tournaments with Toon Link. There is absolutely no reason why he can't beat MK and Snake. His tier placement and rankings will be determinedand by the player using him.
 

Conker315

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i agree with everyones comments about toon link
hes a very good character to play with
and that spike can kill u at low percentage
 

3GOD

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I agree that Toon Link looks much better on paper than he actually is. Here are a few reasons why I feel he will never amount to anything more than mid tier (which isn't bad at all).

#1) He does not have good approach options. True he is quick enough on the ground, but his move from dash are not good options for approaching. Grabbing is way too risky; and Dash Attack, Usmash, and Up-B are also easily punished. If you attempt to approach from the air, you run across Toon Link's major downfall - he is too floaty for the aerial attacks he has. Uair and Dair are not viable options for approach; and Fair, Bair, and Nair all can be punished pretty easily if shielded since Toon Link is left vulnerable for a significant time after each of these attacks. In other words, he has a very poor air-to-ground game, and he cannot really space his attacks enough to use the Marth/DK pressure tactics.

#2) He must play defensively. This is drawn directly from #1. Since he cannot really approach very well, he is forced to play a defensive game. Maybe someone is thinking that he could approaching using his projectiles as a lead in, but honestly, they really don't produce much of an opening. Arrows have lag afterwards no matter what, and the boomerang is somewhat laggy too - not to mention that both of these are shielded with relative ease. Bombs can be a decent approach option, but the explosion is so large that it often ends up stunning Toon Link as well as the opponent. If Toon Link is not damaged by the bomb, he is probably not close enough to follow up with anything.

#3) His projectile defensive options are good, but not that good. One may initially think that relying on a defensive game is not such a bad thing, but Toon Link only has good defense as long as the opponent is kept at projectile range. Even then, it's not THAT hard for many characters to weave through the bombs, boomerang, and arrows. Honestly, SH double arrows are NOT that good - just shield them or jump over them. Boomerang is good for preventing aerial approaches, but you only get to use one at a time. Bombs are more versatile, but they must be pulled out before being thrown. No matter how you mix up the projectiles, a good player will get through them without taking too much damage. I'm not saying that Toon Link has a poor projectile game at all, but it's not as great as some people seem to think.

#4) His up close defensive options are poor. Once the opponent does get through the projectile range, Toon Link has very poor defensive options. If the opponent is on the ground, Dsmash will provide a decent defense, but an opponent that approaches from the air is difficult to stop. None of his grounded attacks have the sweeping coverage, range, and speed to stop aerial approaches, and they are also risky from a lag perspective. His Nair does not provide the coverage above him necessary for defense, and his Uair/Dair are obviously poor choices for defense. His retreating Fair would be a decent choice if it were not so slow. Luckily, he does have his Bair, but even this attack sweeps upward (like the Fair) rather than the preferred defensive downward swing. The Zair may provide some help in defense since it has good range and zero lag, but it also provide no sweeping hitbox for defensive purposes.

So, basically, this is how I perceive Toon Link. He cannot approach, so he must play defensively. His defense is good at a certain range (projectiles), but once the opponent gets past that range, the opponent will generally have the upper hand on Toon Link. This doesn't even take into account characters that actually have better projectile games than Toon Link.

In certain matchups, he will certainly do very well (against large characters for instance since they will fall victim to his good projectiles). Even some characters will have up close games that are worse than his, and he will most often dominate these characters as well. But there are also a lot of characters who can get through his projectiles without too much difficulty and completely dominate him once they get inside the projectile range.
 

Clink

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I love TL, I notice his Potential and some disadvantages. he may not be top Teir material, no. But he is no low Teir either. I can't say that Brawl is gonna be all about teir lists this time around. Everyone is high sprung on Snake, R.O.B, Dedede, MK on just being balls of the teir.

TL's recovery is great, he has combo potential, he has a great offense and defense game. Weather against a spammer or a camper. TL is more around the universal character that can handle all the situations. TL seems to be more of a situational character. he's a great Team player in doubles if anyone has exp with a skilled TL companion.

He can Combo you with Bairs up to 50-60% if you connect just on Bair at a low %. He's got the items to play some nice mind games and spam for a great approach. There are a variety of ways to approach with TL's projectiles. His projectiles will stop just about anything that can be tossed at him. If you know of laying TL's bombs on the ground. Then you may know that a single bomb on the ground will eliminate a lot of energy based character specials.

Lucario's fully charged Aura will just be stopped if it comes in contact with a bomb on the ground. Jiggly's neutral B is stopped and harmed at the same time. No matter how fully charged. Stops R.O.B's Jyro. (i can't spell). his bomb will send pikmin to their graves while being tossed. Any character that can dash at you, like the spacies, are all stopped and harmed at the placement of a bomb on the ground.

TL doesn't have a character that counter picks him! I feel I can say that with much confidence. Mainly because Ive already faced numerous of players and characters. He has some serious match-ups. But he can pull through any fight as long as you handle his potential just right. He does have Priority over a hand full of characters. Especially heavy ones.

Tl also doesn't have a lot of the universal tech skills that others have. one of the best one's, Glide tossing. If TL had a Glide Toss, he would actually gain a nice advantage. R.O.B's GT for instance is amazing and makes for a great way to get the jyro back right after it's tossed. He can juggle that thing at you. He doesn't really have many options with Auto canceling either. He does have the Auto cancel with his arrows, a great advantage. But his aerials are all so quickly performed and you can fast fall after some aerials and still have your mobility like any other with an auto cancel.

one other thing that is useful and I find it to be. The Jump Cancel Throw. This is useful for an approach. it does increase the lag time of recovery after the toss and has a slight dash to it. Gaining you the advantage of attacking a lot faster after the GT rather than just tossing it out of a dash.


I do have to agree with some of 3GOD's expiations on certain approaches. it's risky to grab or try anything out of a dash attack. I find that if used correctly the projectiles make for a mind game and approach at the same time. I don't think he "has" to be defense all the time. Against certain characters you need to catch a good defense, yes. I find myself as a more aggressive player. I've found a couple of nice approaches and some that'll surprise my opponent. Up close defensively, he isn't all that great, true. Utilt will hit front and back and is faster and more reliable than the Dsmash when up close. TL needs to keep the right spacing game. With his projectiles, it does help a lot for spacing.


TL's spot on a teir list would not be the top. Not the bottom. TL seems to be the overall situational character. He seems suitable for a high mid teir spot.
 

urdailywater

Smash Hero
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I love Toon Link. Wasn't even expecting him in the game

Many reasons
Because of the way he looks
His Fsmash is incredibly good.
His ADD'ness -- He'll stare off into space at the most random times.
And the fact that he's from Windwaker.
 

Takoboushi

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Lil Link is God. That's all there is to it. He smashes apart lives and dreams alike, and eats the severed heads of his enemies for breakfast. He uses his sword as a table-knife.
 

Rave925

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Lil Link is God. That's all there is to it. He smashes apart lives and dreams alike, and eats the severed heads of his enemies for breakfast. He uses his sword as a table-knife.
............What else is there to say? Man, you basically summed it all up right there, huh.
 

Sosuke

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No one uses Toon Link because hes not generally so simple to play.
You don't get that "even if I mess up, it's fine" feeling you get with lets say Snake or MK. I'm not trying to put ANY offense of Snake of MK players.
But I think people just generally "safer" with characters like that along with lets say, Marth or Dedede.
I think it's just that people feel a sense of risk when picking TL and they don't really like it.
(I personally love that feeling and use it in a strive to do better)
So I guess bluntly, once people generally stop being "afraid" to pick Toon Link, we'll see more at tournaments.
But thats just my opinion. >_> (sorry if it sounds stupid)
 

ZeroXMachine

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I 100% agree with you sasukebowser. When you miss with Toon Link, you leave a lot of room to be punished with smashes and grabs. Only bad things happen when you're vulnerable to either. Characters with less lag after their missed moves are generally more popular and do well because of this very reason.
 

The Rabid Baby

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It seems to me like the whole point of toon link is that he doesnt have one easily exploitable weakness. There's always a chracter like that in any game - the one who doesnt have a weakness, but also lacks a strength. Anyone who's played advance wars knows about andy, who is pretty much that. When you play as andy, you exploit your opponents weakness as much as possible. So, from my point of view, this means that toon link fare better at people with big weaknesses to compensate big strengths compared to those more evend out.

Thats my two cents, but I'm kinda new, so I don't reaalllly know what I'm talking about :p
 

Clink

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Thats what I mean by TL being a great situational character. He doesn't have a character that can fully counter him. He has a tuff time with certain characters, yes. But as long as you know your spacing game against them, then you'll be fine and be able to exploit their weakness.
 

AkaMaruChan

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what does everyone think about using TL's UpB as a mix in his routine? No one really talks about it but it can help rack up damage and fake out opponents. I have a friend who has an evasive approach. TL attacks too fast and his hit box isn't too great, but I find that throwing in some UpBs when I'm sure he's going to roll or spot dodge is a good approach. discuss?
 

Clink

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what does everyone think about using TL's UpB as a mix in his routine? No one really talks about it but it can help rack up damage and fake out opponents. I have a friend who has an evasive approach. TL attacks too fast and his hit box isn't too great, but I find that throwing in some UpBs when I'm sure he's going to roll or spot dodge is a good approach. discuss?

You do have a point there. I do us Up-B when timing is right. It is also very punishable if missed. Knowing when they will dodge roll is good and it's a perfect move rather than a Dsmash most the time. It's more guaranteed than a DSmash during a dodge roll. Though it does work as a mind game when you don't use it much during a match. try to savor it for those aggressive players. I find that sometimes getting the first jab and straight into and UP-B works well. Tab jump off makes Up a lot less risky >,<

It does have a nice low KB at low % and if you see the direction the KB in and are quick enough you can get a F-Tilt in right away. Only at a low % though XD. UP-B is also a good finisher in the air if the last hit connects at a high %. kinda risky to do, but just after a good Bair you can pull it off.
 

AkaMaruChan

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I totally agree with you Clink. And I really didn't know about the UpB at low percent can probably connect another hit. I'll have to try that. But I think that at low percentage I like to fight with my back against the opponent for the Bairs because they combo better at lower percent, once the opponent is at like 60% that's usually when the real game begins. Because KB is usually too much to connect any Bairs more then twice, and sadly you still can't possibly KO people at that percent (Unlike Ike who can KO at like....40). In which case, TL has great ways to rack up damage. One way you TL players might want to think about racking up damage is a boomerang and arrow alteration. You throw the boomerang and shoot an arrow. Make sure that you are at the very end of your arrow shot animation to cancel the lag of the boomerang catch and then throw out the boomerang again. The boomerang is one of my favorite projectiles because its so controllable.

Everyone says TL is situational, but I Brawl is situational. Every game and every character, and every stage is a factor of situations working for or against any character. That's what makes the game fun. I think the reason why I enjoy playing Brawl with my friend so much is that my friend can adapt (unlike computers) If I start dodging his attacks he'll time his attacks differently, if I see him staying more to the ground, I'll use projectiles. You have to adapt quickly or you'll lose fast. Brawl is a very dynamic game, and the sooner you can come up with solutions for these different situations, the better player you will be. I think the reason why people have such a hard time embracing TL is because they have a tournement mindset. Everyone shows up with their ridiculous marth spacing, or G&W turtle, but TL is just...TL. Once you can recognize these tournement tactics and solve ways of approaching that, TL is great BECAUSE he's situational. (Now I'm ranting) does anyone agree with me? I'm tired of people saying he has potential (no offense guys) and not discussing HOW to tap into that potential
 

Trifroze

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I also use up B often when the opponent is shielding and dodging a lot, but I never see anyone do that in videos. =I

And btw, does anyone else here actually use up tilt to rack up damage on heavy characters at low percents? I find it pretty useful. If your opponent is at 0% you can up tilt him to around 30% and then throw an uair or nair, which makes 40-50% total.
 

Conker315

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I also use up B often when the opponent is shielding and dodging a lot, but I never see anyone do that in videos. =I

And btw, does anyone else here actually use up tilt to rack up damage on heavy characters at low percents? I find it pretty useful. If your opponent is at 0% you can up tilt him to around 30% and then throw an uair or nair, which makes 40-50% total.
i do that :)
it does build up damage
and they cant get out of it untill they have like 35% :laugh:
but u go for the combo kill there
:)
 

virtuososteve

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I also use up B often when the opponent is shielding and dodging a lot, but I never see anyone do that in videos. =I

And btw, does anyone else here actually use up tilt to rack up damage on heavy characters at low percents? I find it pretty useful. If your opponent is at 0% you can up tilt him to around 30% and then throw an uair or nair, which makes 40-50% total.
Yeah, i use my up-b when they are right next to me and dodging because after they dodge they get hit w/ the move, then sends them flying away allowing time for you to recover
 

AkaMaruChan

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Oct 29, 2007
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Twiliz>

Sometimes I think that the Utilt is a decent KO move. And I sometimes think it has more or at least equal KO potential then TL's USmash. Because we tend to use the Up smash alot, it loses most of its KO potential when we really need it, that's when you resort to the up tilt, it's quicker then the up smash, larger hit box, and less lag recovery. Anyone else use the UpTilt as a KO move?
 

AkaMaruChan

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speaking of up Bs, the same friend that I spoke about earlier in the post has found a way to power shield WHILE being hit in the UpB, what is up with that? he takes like half the damage and power shields the rest and owns me when I'm open. what the heck?!
 
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