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Weekly Character Discussion: Snake
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
The leopard print outfit is fabulous.
I'll edit more later. >_>
I'll edit more later. >_>
Snake is worthless. Completely unplayable for all intents and purposes.
*cough*
*cough*
Cort
Apple Head
I recently won XESTICLE going all Snake, beating M2K's DDD in the winner's final 3-1 and in the finals he took the first set barely 2-3 and then I won 3-2 x_x
I love Snake. I think he's the funnest character to play by FAR.
Anyway, basically all of his moves can kill, he's either the 2nd or third heaviest character, his recovery is one of the best, his projectile game is one of the best (though, I rarely ever use any of it), his tilts are GODLY, his out of shield game is GODLY, his dash attack canceled usmash is GODLY, his aerials are all situationally GODLY, his grabs are actually USEFUL! Wow, what a broken character.
I'm pretty convinced Snake is either the best or 2nd best character next to Meta Knight.
First off, my play style rotates completely around walking around. Yes, slowly walking around. I walk around and spacing myself in front of my opponent and I never use grenades or other projectiles unless the distance between us is quite far. Power shielding (sometimes just shielding is fine too) is another thing I do because it sets up for every Snake tilt/quick move out of shield. I like to randomly mortar slide to approach as his usmash makes him nearly unpunishable unless you like to eat falling bombs.
This was basically one of the only ways I could approach M2K's DDD without getting grabbed every single time. You can also do it instantly out of crawling backwards slowly, it looks hilarious.
His ftilt is downright broken, 21% damage fresh. It has ridiculous priority, comes out almost instantly, and the 2nd part has the most absurd range. It's the main move I use out of shield and to approach randomly, especially after mortar sliding behind them into a quick turn around ftilt.
His utilt has the most absurd range in the game for what the hitbox appears to look like. The range in front of him is down right insane, the utilt can actually reach below him and hit people on the ledge, and it has range above him that isn't too surprising for how long his leg is. The move comes out ridiculously fast and has one of the best KO power/speed ratios in the game. His utilt kills nearly every character at around 90-100%, and the heavy weight characters at around 110-120% as long as it's fresh.
His triple jab combo is extremely useful as well. The first jab comes out faster than ftilt does, and it also provides an interesting amount of stun time. You can actually jab to ftilt people or jab to utilt and it COMBOS. Yes thats right, COMBOS IN BRAWL!!!! OMG I LIKE THIS CHARACTER!!!
Errr sorry, getting a little excited. You can also jab, first hit of ftilt into utilt and it also combos as long as your timing is on. Another use is if you overspace your ftilt (which I do A LOT) and people try and punish you, you can usually just jab combo before they reach you.
I don't use his dtilt often but when I do it's to edge gaurd against people trying to double jump to the ledge, it's sort of hard to not make your character poke their head just barely above the ledge and eat a dtilt. Otherwise, I rarely use this move.
His usmash. Oh god, his usmash is so good. VS characters that don't have projectiles you can literally just stand in place and spam usmash and you are almost completely unapproachable. The placing of the mortar has a decent hitbox, the bombs coming down come down left or right randomly (only thing I hate), and it's ridiculously fast. I love to edge gaurd with usmash since I can get to the ledge almost instantly via mortar slide and charge usmash accordingly, then wait to see what my opponent does and quickly ledge hog, utilt their double jump to ledge (into the bomb), or run off and fastfall a back air (which sometimes hits them into the bomb or stage spikes them).
His nair does TWENTY-EIGHT % if all the hits connect. I love to use this move, if you full jump nair all the hitboxes come out but you land with landing lag, double jump nair auto cancels (straight into a beautiful ftilt or jab combo), I love to use this move because it has surprising range and priority and deals a LOT of damage. You can also wait for people to land on platforms and double jump up to them and nair at the same time, it completely destroys their shield and shield stabs a great majority of the time. Another use of nair is ledge jump -> instant nair. It completely destroys anyone jumping above the ledge. Oh god what a broken character!
I like his dair too, though I situationally use it the last hit of his dair is his strongest knockback aerial. You can ledge jump -> dair and the first kick or two will hit anyone standing near the ledge. You can also shield drop short hop a dair and usually all of the hits hit, but I prefer to play it safe and just ftilt instead. The move definitely has it's uses.
I rarely use his C4 except to recover. I placed a C4 in the "safe zone" of norfair during the lava wave and left it, and M2K didn't notice and ventured in while I shielded the lava wave, I detonated my c4 after and M2K took the damage. I think I underuse C4 but I'd rather use it to recover just in case I get gimped (Snake's up b can be grabbed if you do it too close to the ledge and he flies off and can't do up b again, unless you C4 recover). I have more consistant results if I just walk around in front of people and space/wait for them rather than fooling around with grenades and C4.
The Nikita Missile/over b... I rarely or never use. I'd rather use grenades or edge guard with Snake's broken hit boxes.
There's a number of grenade tricks I use, but rarely. Against DDD's that are not near perfect with chain throwing you can mash B to pull a grenade then as soon as you get grabbed you'll get dthrown into a grenade and escape, it's not worth it if you're already at the end of the stage, only if you're at the very beginning of the CG at the end of the stage facing the other side.
You can also hold a grenade and shield, it'll drop to your feet. I know most people already know this, but another trick I use is just picking up the grenade and approaching. Just run up to them and shield just before it blows up, the hitbox is rather large and you won't get hurt since you're shielding the grenade that just blew up in your hand... too good.
I rarely use his down smash mine except when I rarely mess up the mortar slide (I dash, hit down on the c stick to dash attack, then immediately press up + grab (z)) Sometimes I get combod into my own down smash and it just doesn't really seem to be worth the trouble.
Stickying people with C4 has to be one of the funnest things to do in Brawl. I have a number of ways of doing it securely. You can wait until people land on a platform, double jump up to them and they expect you to attack so they shield, then you just place the c4 on them because it goes through shields. Fastfall up air or utilt them up and detonate. Usually kills at around 50-60% before the uair/utilt. If you predict someone jumping from the ledge you can also jump with them at the same time and sticky them. If people are dumb enough to approach you then you can just power shield to sticky, then immediately jab combo or ftilt/utilt them into detonate for a sexy combo.
I'll add more as I think of it or just post in a new post, but I love Snake, he's the only reason I play Brawl. Thank God he's broken.
I love Snake. I think he's the funnest character to play by FAR.
Anyway, basically all of his moves can kill, he's either the 2nd or third heaviest character, his recovery is one of the best, his projectile game is one of the best (though, I rarely ever use any of it), his tilts are GODLY, his out of shield game is GODLY, his dash attack canceled usmash is GODLY, his aerials are all situationally GODLY, his grabs are actually USEFUL! Wow, what a broken character.
I'm pretty convinced Snake is either the best or 2nd best character next to Meta Knight.
First off, my play style rotates completely around walking around. Yes, slowly walking around. I walk around and spacing myself in front of my opponent and I never use grenades or other projectiles unless the distance between us is quite far. Power shielding (sometimes just shielding is fine too) is another thing I do because it sets up for every Snake tilt/quick move out of shield. I like to randomly mortar slide to approach as his usmash makes him nearly unpunishable unless you like to eat falling bombs.
This was basically one of the only ways I could approach M2K's DDD without getting grabbed every single time. You can also do it instantly out of crawling backwards slowly, it looks hilarious.
His ftilt is downright broken, 21% damage fresh. It has ridiculous priority, comes out almost instantly, and the 2nd part has the most absurd range. It's the main move I use out of shield and to approach randomly, especially after mortar sliding behind them into a quick turn around ftilt.
His utilt has the most absurd range in the game for what the hitbox appears to look like. The range in front of him is down right insane, the utilt can actually reach below him and hit people on the ledge, and it has range above him that isn't too surprising for how long his leg is. The move comes out ridiculously fast and has one of the best KO power/speed ratios in the game. His utilt kills nearly every character at around 90-100%, and the heavy weight characters at around 110-120% as long as it's fresh.
His triple jab combo is extremely useful as well. The first jab comes out faster than ftilt does, and it also provides an interesting amount of stun time. You can actually jab to ftilt people or jab to utilt and it COMBOS. Yes thats right, COMBOS IN BRAWL!!!! OMG I LIKE THIS CHARACTER!!!
Errr sorry, getting a little excited. You can also jab, first hit of ftilt into utilt and it also combos as long as your timing is on. Another use is if you overspace your ftilt (which I do A LOT) and people try and punish you, you can usually just jab combo before they reach you.
I don't use his dtilt often but when I do it's to edge gaurd against people trying to double jump to the ledge, it's sort of hard to not make your character poke their head just barely above the ledge and eat a dtilt. Otherwise, I rarely use this move.
His usmash. Oh god, his usmash is so good. VS characters that don't have projectiles you can literally just stand in place and spam usmash and you are almost completely unapproachable. The placing of the mortar has a decent hitbox, the bombs coming down come down left or right randomly (only thing I hate), and it's ridiculously fast. I love to edge gaurd with usmash since I can get to the ledge almost instantly via mortar slide and charge usmash accordingly, then wait to see what my opponent does and quickly ledge hog, utilt their double jump to ledge (into the bomb), or run off and fastfall a back air (which sometimes hits them into the bomb or stage spikes them).
His nair does TWENTY-EIGHT % if all the hits connect. I love to use this move, if you full jump nair all the hitboxes come out but you land with landing lag, double jump nair auto cancels (straight into a beautiful ftilt or jab combo), I love to use this move because it has surprising range and priority and deals a LOT of damage. You can also wait for people to land on platforms and double jump up to them and nair at the same time, it completely destroys their shield and shield stabs a great majority of the time. Another use of nair is ledge jump -> instant nair. It completely destroys anyone jumping above the ledge. Oh god what a broken character!
I like his dair too, though I situationally use it the last hit of his dair is his strongest knockback aerial. You can ledge jump -> dair and the first kick or two will hit anyone standing near the ledge. You can also shield drop short hop a dair and usually all of the hits hit, but I prefer to play it safe and just ftilt instead. The move definitely has it's uses.
I rarely use his C4 except to recover. I placed a C4 in the "safe zone" of norfair during the lava wave and left it, and M2K didn't notice and ventured in while I shielded the lava wave, I detonated my c4 after and M2K took the damage. I think I underuse C4 but I'd rather use it to recover just in case I get gimped (Snake's up b can be grabbed if you do it too close to the ledge and he flies off and can't do up b again, unless you C4 recover). I have more consistant results if I just walk around in front of people and space/wait for them rather than fooling around with grenades and C4.
The Nikita Missile/over b... I rarely or never use. I'd rather use grenades or edge guard with Snake's broken hit boxes.
There's a number of grenade tricks I use, but rarely. Against DDD's that are not near perfect with chain throwing you can mash B to pull a grenade then as soon as you get grabbed you'll get dthrown into a grenade and escape, it's not worth it if you're already at the end of the stage, only if you're at the very beginning of the CG at the end of the stage facing the other side.
You can also hold a grenade and shield, it'll drop to your feet. I know most people already know this, but another trick I use is just picking up the grenade and approaching. Just run up to them and shield just before it blows up, the hitbox is rather large and you won't get hurt since you're shielding the grenade that just blew up in your hand... too good.
I rarely use his down smash mine except when I rarely mess up the mortar slide (I dash, hit down on the c stick to dash attack, then immediately press up + grab (z)) Sometimes I get combod into my own down smash and it just doesn't really seem to be worth the trouble.
Stickying people with C4 has to be one of the funnest things to do in Brawl. I have a number of ways of doing it securely. You can wait until people land on a platform, double jump up to them and they expect you to attack so they shield, then you just place the c4 on them because it goes through shields. Fastfall up air or utilt them up and detonate. Usually kills at around 50-60% before the uair/utilt. If you predict someone jumping from the ledge you can also jump with them at the same time and sticky them. If people are dumb enough to approach you then you can just power shield to sticky, then immediately jab combo or ftilt/utilt them into detonate for a sexy combo.
I'll add more as I think of it or just post in a new post, but I love Snake, he's the only reason I play Brawl. Thank God he's broken.
I can access Smashboards again just in time for my main. =]
Cort's post is really useful, I fully agree with most of it and his playing style seems to be similar to mine; little projectile spamming, all about spacing. We haven't had any real tournaments here yet, but I've beaten most people I've played easily with Snake and I found him fun to play as since day 1. Of course, I was determined to play Snake as soon as he was announced. I'll try to post some useful stuff when I've got more time.
Cort's post is really useful, I fully agree with most of it and his playing style seems to be similar to mine; little projectile spamming, all about spacing. We haven't had any real tournaments here yet, but I've beaten most people I've played easily with Snake and I found him fun to play as since day 1. Of course, I was determined to play Snake as soon as he was announced. I'll try to post some useful stuff when I've got more time.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
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I agree with everything Cort said. Snake right now is one of my favorite characters in the game to play with (I guess he can be considered my main right now), and I absolutely love him (except for the fact he only has 1 freaking taunt, whats up with that?). Although I play my Snake a little differently, I can tell Cort and I have similar ideas of how he plays. Snake is no doubt one of the best in the game right now, and I don't see him ever going lower than the middle of high tier as this game evolves, if it stays the way it is (or similarly).
Although there is one thing that I'll have to disagree with Cort about: His recovery is FAR from one of the best. In fact, I believe his recovery is his biggest downfall. First off, there is the cypher grab, which is ridiculously annoying. Whenever I up-B close to the stage (in grab range), I have to DI backwards to get out of range, then I have to either Fair to get back on the stage, or hope they don't ledge grab me. I'm not too good at his C4 jump (I'm going to work on that when I have the time), so I'm deathly afraid of the cypher grab. Also, his Up-B leaves him incredibly open during it. Its SLOW as balls, and I've rarely ever seen an opponent who doesn't take advantage of that to rack up damage or hit me out of it. I can't airdodge half the time because Snake doesn't get much horizontal from the up-B, and I'd fall off the stage if I do (or I'd have to eat a C4, which isn't optimal either and will kill at high percents). Snake's biggest enemy IMO: Anybody with a spike. His up-B is so slow that anybody with a spike can hit him easily. Perhaps one of the easiest characters to spike in the game. Once the metagame progresses, and people learn how to edgeguard/spike better, I can see Snakes in the future using the C4 recovery over the up-B recovery whenever their opponent is in range.
Don't get me wrong, I think Snake is f'ing incredible. He is so much fun to play with, and he can give even the best players a ton of problems. But he is far from invincible.
Also, I'm no expert at Melee so don't tear me apart if this isn't true, but I feel like Snake is to Brawl like Peach was to Melee. IMO, Peach in Melee was a great character, but not incredible per se. The reason she ended up being so good is that she just happened to be bad match up, or "counterpick", to most of the cast. Snake is the same way to me. He is a great character, no doubt belongs pretty high on every tier list, but as a standalone character I'm not sure he would've been one of the best. The reason he actually is, is the same reason Peach was so high: Snake is simply strong against most of the cast. When you include some of the worst matchups for your main, how often do you see Snake's name pop up? Snake is a strong counterpick against so many characters in the game, and I can't really see very many characters being a counterpick against Snake (except ROB, yuck :/). And I guess for now, thats my 2 cents on the absolute beast that is Snake.
Although there is one thing that I'll have to disagree with Cort about: His recovery is FAR from one of the best. In fact, I believe his recovery is his biggest downfall. First off, there is the cypher grab, which is ridiculously annoying. Whenever I up-B close to the stage (in grab range), I have to DI backwards to get out of range, then I have to either Fair to get back on the stage, or hope they don't ledge grab me. I'm not too good at his C4 jump (I'm going to work on that when I have the time), so I'm deathly afraid of the cypher grab. Also, his Up-B leaves him incredibly open during it. Its SLOW as balls, and I've rarely ever seen an opponent who doesn't take advantage of that to rack up damage or hit me out of it. I can't airdodge half the time because Snake doesn't get much horizontal from the up-B, and I'd fall off the stage if I do (or I'd have to eat a C4, which isn't optimal either and will kill at high percents). Snake's biggest enemy IMO: Anybody with a spike. His up-B is so slow that anybody with a spike can hit him easily. Perhaps one of the easiest characters to spike in the game. Once the metagame progresses, and people learn how to edgeguard/spike better, I can see Snakes in the future using the C4 recovery over the up-B recovery whenever their opponent is in range.
Don't get me wrong, I think Snake is f'ing incredible. He is so much fun to play with, and he can give even the best players a ton of problems. But he is far from invincible.
Also, I'm no expert at Melee so don't tear me apart if this isn't true, but I feel like Snake is to Brawl like Peach was to Melee. IMO, Peach in Melee was a great character, but not incredible per se. The reason she ended up being so good is that she just happened to be bad match up, or "counterpick", to most of the cast. Snake is the same way to me. He is a great character, no doubt belongs pretty high on every tier list, but as a standalone character I'm not sure he would've been one of the best. The reason he actually is, is the same reason Peach was so high: Snake is simply strong against most of the cast. When you include some of the worst matchups for your main, how often do you see Snake's name pop up? Snake is a strong counterpick against so many characters in the game, and I can't really see very many characters being a counterpick against Snake (except ROB, yuck :/). And I guess for now, thats my 2 cents on the absolute beast that is Snake.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
his only weakness is a pseudo-gimpable recovery that a "solid" snake player can still recovery from, no pun intended
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- Messages
- 21,181
That pun was intended and we all know it.
I'd like to add that at high %, it can be a good idea to spam snake's u-tilt. Most Snake players normally save it for the KO, which is smart, but when you are at 200% and fighting a fresh opponent, spamming the u-tilt is actually a great way to juggle. They often are forced to air dodge to get around it, and then land right into your f-tilt! Too good.
Snake makes me happy. Not only do I love to play him, but he is my second favorite opponent for my main
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
which characters do well vs snake, and which characters have an even matchup?
if i had to guess i'd say that ddd/metaknight do well and that characters like gw, falco, and wolf do evenly? i'd like to see a snake main's opinion on character matchups.
and can i also suggest samurai that you don't put clues up anymore, that discussion page is almost entirely posts about people guessing what the next character is rather than discussing the character at hand.
~omegablackmage
if i had to guess i'd say that ddd/metaknight do well and that characters like gw, falco, and wolf do evenly? i'd like to see a snake main's opinion on character matchups.
and can i also suggest samurai that you don't put clues up anymore, that discussion page is almost entirely posts about people guessing what the next character is rather than discussing the character at hand.
~omegablackmage
Cort
Apple Head
Snake's recovery is one of the best if you know how to use it effectively. It has some interesting super armor... which honestly I don't understand sometimes.
It's based on your initial momentum before you up b, so if you are falling and up b, you will dip down before you start going up slowly, however if you double jump and up b instantly you will shoot up and gain a lot more height and not dip down.
I forgot about talking about Snake's fsmash, which is EXTREMELY GOOD >_<
It's the third most powerful fsmash, killing Marth from the center of FD fully charged/no DI at 23% (Ike's kills at 20 and DDD's kills at 17, thanks M2K =P). The initial start up takes a while, but while you charge and let go it comes out nearly instantly. The hitbox also reaches around the back of Snake's legs as well as far below the explosion as well (you can do it on a platform and it'll hit below him by a good distance)
If you're good at predicting your opponents rolls/habits from the ledge/time it randomly as you think your opponent is going to approach, it's extremely useful as it'll kill basically any non-heavy weight character below 60-70%. Also if you're caught doing it and your opponent shields, you can simply just charge it because your opponent will usually not dare try and punish you or grab you, and I've gotten some awesome shield breaks (it completely decimates shields and pushes them back far). Then as their shield is broken they just eat another fully charged fsmash (or sticky them into utilt explosionnnn oh god I love this combo)
It's based on your initial momentum before you up b, so if you are falling and up b, you will dip down before you start going up slowly, however if you double jump and up b instantly you will shoot up and gain a lot more height and not dip down.
I forgot about talking about Snake's fsmash, which is EXTREMELY GOOD >_<
It's the third most powerful fsmash, killing Marth from the center of FD fully charged/no DI at 23% (Ike's kills at 20 and DDD's kills at 17, thanks M2K =P). The initial start up takes a while, but while you charge and let go it comes out nearly instantly. The hitbox also reaches around the back of Snake's legs as well as far below the explosion as well (you can do it on a platform and it'll hit below him by a good distance)
If you're good at predicting your opponents rolls/habits from the ledge/time it randomly as you think your opponent is going to approach, it's extremely useful as it'll kill basically any non-heavy weight character below 60-70%. Also if you're caught doing it and your opponent shields, you can simply just charge it because your opponent will usually not dare try and punish you or grab you, and I've gotten some awesome shield breaks (it completely decimates shields and pushes them back far). Then as their shield is broken they just eat another fully charged fsmash (or sticky them into utilt explosionnnn oh god I love this combo)
D
Deleted member
Guest
his up b armor seems power dependent. That said, he can take MK's attacks all day, but Ike's anything ***** it.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
It's not an easy matchup, that's for sure. Wario can dair into Snake and with some good DI skills move all the way back to his starting position. It eats Snake's shield and it's hard to approach. I still say Snake is significantly stronger in the matchup though.
A lot has been added already (nice post Cort), but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I have a very different Snake than how others are describing, and so far it has done really well. I've already won or placed high in all the tournaments with him.
Some tricks I like to do:
-Up B until I'm not visible, then drop a mine. Then I'll DI hard left or right, and if they cross the mine while coming after me I blow it up in the air. If not, I leave it. It seems that people have a harder time of keeping track when I drop them from that high.
-I'll plant a mine, then down throw them about 5 feet away. If they roll into the mine I blow them up, if they roll opposite I do a dash attack.
-Pull out a grenade, shield to drop, pick it up, run off the side of the level, and throw it so that it explodes as soon as it hits them. I also do the trick Cort described where I grab a grenade and run at them, shielding right before it explodes.
-I edgeguard by spamming some charged up smashes, then I pull out a grenade, drop it, pick it up, and bounce it off the ground with a smash throw. Then I just pull one out and roll back. It covers pretty much all parts of the stage. Then if they grab the ledge, I just shield and wait for them to do something. I use my tilts to react to their action.
-Plant a proximity mine, dthrow a few feet away, then forward smash/tilt/dash in the opposite direction. They will instinctively roll away from the mine.
-Spam the shiet out of his boost smash thingy (is what what we're calling it?). Great mindgames and hard to approach.
-As someone tries to recover, I run off the side of the stage without jumping and do a uair. It works amazingly well.
Anyone have any videos of their Snake? I only have two recent ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcUodfnX8nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8NBgYd6kQQ
I main Snake, and some of the matchups I find difficult with him are Pikachu and Dedede...I'd say Snake has the advantage on Meta though!!!
I agree with QDVS on the Pikachu match up being a thorn in Snakes side.
And I think the super armor is power dependent; I can consistently get hit by DK's up by while cyphering and just take damage but almost always get knocked off by a well timed b-air.
And I think the super armor is power dependent; I can consistently get hit by DK's up by while cyphering and just take damage but almost always get knocked off by a well timed b-air.
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
I think it depends on the knockback of the move. I get knocked off by things they would normally knock me away, and by the weaker attacks, I just take the hits and keep flying.
The thing that makes Snake so good in my eyes is the amount of stage control and tricks he can do to you in a match to keep you off balance.
The thing that makes Snake so good in my eyes is the amount of stage control and tricks he can do to you in a match to keep you off balance.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- 21,181
Snake's up+b is power dependent, like Yoshi's double jump.
However, if you hit snake in his hands, he drops the cypher immediately. This is how you gimp snake!
Snake has some of the best edge guarding in the game.
Let your opponent come back and grab the edge, and right before he grabs it, shield drop a grenade. Do an auto-canceled nair while moving slowly backwards so you land outside of the grenades explosion range.
If your opponent stays on the ledge, the grenade hits him. If he uses his getup attack, the grenade explodes. If he stands up on the ledge, you can hit him with the end of your nair then shield, and the grenade will explode and knock him onto the ledge again. If he rolls, you can land and f-tilt him immediately.
The only thing they can do, assuming Snake has good grenade timing and spacing and doesn't mess up, is to drop from the ledge and grab it again. Unfortuantely, Snake can repeat this process.
I've started to get so good at it that my roomate's strategy is to now jump off ledge and airdodge so he only gets hit by thel ast bit of the nair, and then to up+b and land as far in the center of the stage as he can and hope he can shield before I hit him.
Does anyone know how the first hit of his f-tilt works? Sometimes it stuns them in place, sometimes it hits them away. I like doing the constant first hit to someone to rack up damage / break their soul.
Also.... Snake's taunt is too good. Not only is it the most humiliating attack to use on an opponent who has had their shield broken, but it actually can kill Wolf!
Something I was wondering.... if Snake has an opponent who has their shield broken, could he throw grenades at an opponent to increase their %, then throw the grenade out of range so they don't wake up? I'm curious as to how effective that would be.
However, if you hit snake in his hands, he drops the cypher immediately. This is how you gimp snake!
Snake has some of the best edge guarding in the game.
Let your opponent come back and grab the edge, and right before he grabs it, shield drop a grenade. Do an auto-canceled nair while moving slowly backwards so you land outside of the grenades explosion range.
If your opponent stays on the ledge, the grenade hits him. If he uses his getup attack, the grenade explodes. If he stands up on the ledge, you can hit him with the end of your nair then shield, and the grenade will explode and knock him onto the ledge again. If he rolls, you can land and f-tilt him immediately.
The only thing they can do, assuming Snake has good grenade timing and spacing and doesn't mess up, is to drop from the ledge and grab it again. Unfortuantely, Snake can repeat this process.
I've started to get so good at it that my roomate's strategy is to now jump off ledge and airdodge so he only gets hit by thel ast bit of the nair, and then to up+b and land as far in the center of the stage as he can and hope he can shield before I hit him.
Does anyone know how the first hit of his f-tilt works? Sometimes it stuns them in place, sometimes it hits them away. I like doing the constant first hit to someone to rack up damage / break their soul.
Also.... Snake's taunt is too good. Not only is it the most humiliating attack to use on an opponent who has had their shield broken, but it actually can kill Wolf!
Something I was wondering.... if Snake has an opponent who has their shield broken, could he throw grenades at an opponent to increase their %, then throw the grenade out of range so they don't wake up? I'm curious as to how effective that would be.
the_suicide_fox
Smash Champion
Maybe I just haven't played any good Snakes, but with Fox I don't seem to have much trouble with him. His aerial game isn't the best, whenever I meet a Snake in the air with Fox my attacks are all 10 times faster and hit more often, while Lucario has insane priority and will just eat through whatever Snake is doing. Snake seems to be the best on the ground though, and those mortars and explosives are sometimes too much to handle, so I usually sit back and wait until they get sick of spamming them then fight LOL. I also find his recovery easy to edgeguard unless he is already pretty high above the stage.
But I have seen vids of really good Snake players. I wouldn't say the best character, but definately High tier at the least. Lucas, MK, and D3 all seem better overall IMO.
Sakuri gave him too many explosives, seriously. He should have just said to hell with it and gave him a friggin Uzi or something LOL. I guess because he is a Nintendo fanboy he doesn't play MGS or Sonic games much, bc Snake is all like "explosives, explosives, explosives" and Sonic is "SPINDASH SPINDASH SPINDASH!" LOL
But I have seen vids of really good Snake players. I wouldn't say the best character, but definately High tier at the least. Lucas, MK, and D3 all seem better overall IMO.
Sakuri gave him too many explosives, seriously. He should have just said to hell with it and gave him a friggin Uzi or something LOL. I guess because he is a Nintendo fanboy he doesn't play MGS or Sonic games much, bc Snake is all like "explosives, explosives, explosives" and Sonic is "SPINDASH SPINDASH SPINDASH!" LOL
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Overswarm: the first hit of his ftilt will make them trip or just stun them if they are touching the ground. If they are in the air, the first hit will have around the same knockback as the 2nd hit.
Hopefully we can all agree that there can be no best Snake, as the best Snake is obviously Snake Kirby.
Otherwise, I have nothing to add from what is above.
Otherwise, I have nothing to add from what is above.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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- May 22, 2006
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- 6,924
Although we should really be talking about this in the other thread I made, the sticky in the BTD is not intended to be there to discuss the characters. That is the whole reason why I'm moving these threads into the public areas without locking them: so people can contribute to our conversations and analysis. The hint was just a fun little distraction that has, IMO, attracted quite a bit of people to the thread that otherwise may not check it. Also, Snake is pure ownage on MK and GW
Anyways, lets try to get a list of the characters good against Snake going right now (I'd also want to do a list of characters Snake is good against, but that list would be way too long). I'm curious to see who you guys think is good against him, and we can add it to the summary later. And we should keep in mind that this list includes both very effective against Snake and only slightly effective against Snake. The list we have so far is:
- Pikachu (I agree, this matchup is horrible)
- ROB (Definitely one of the worst)
- DeDeDe (?)
- Wolf (?)
- Wario (?)
- Fox (?)
- Falco (?)
I think right now I can safely say that Pikachu and ROB are solid counterpicks against Snake. I'm really hesitant to include D3, because tournament results show Snakes beating out D3s a ton (See: Cort beating M2K's D3 above), and personally I've only ever had trouble with one D3 player, and I'm not sure I'd fall for the stuff he did again. By the way, something fun against Fox/Falco is when they are charging their Up-B, before it launches, you can throw a nade on them and the charging fire causes the nade to explode on them :D. Also, the spacies bust his nades open with their lasers, so its useful against laser spammers (especially Wolf).
Do you guys have any input on the ones with question marks, or have anybody else that should be added to the list?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- May 4, 2005
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- 21,181
Fox and Falco do alright against Snake, but snake's f-tilt becomes a kill move and the nikita can be brutal for getting tons of extra damage when they are off the stage.
Pika and ROB for sure.
Also, why does Yayuhzz get a purple name?
mathos
Smash Champion
You change your name color in your profile options. . . . .
Cort
Apple Head
I had ridiculously close games with M2K and we both played pretty well. If I weren't being chain grabbed I was being edge guarded, and if I weren't walking around spacing myself then I was randomly Snake sliding or praying M2K would try and dash grab. I relied on my counterpicks a lot, too. I never lost a game on Norfair vs M2K in all 3 of our sets, and the very last level we played on to determine the winner of the tournament was Hanenbow where I never approached and camped him with grenades (that was the only level where I was forced to do that, plus it was the last game so *shrug*)
I honestly don't know why anyone would think Pikachu does well vs Snake. Pika can't approach at all and thunderjolts are easily power shield/dash/repeat approached and then Pika eats ftilts. You can DI up out of Pika's dsmash, thunder is really easily predictable too. Pika is fairly light on top of it so utilt kills come fairly early.
I think Fox does exceptionally well vs Snake. Snake usually always has to the the one to approach, Fox gets easy damage off of drill -> utilts and laser camping early on, and shield drop dash usmash kills Snake at around 105-110 no matter what, which is fairly early. Falco I think doesn't do as well because he doesn't have a solid killing move that doesn't let Snake live to 200%. I have no trouble dealing with laser spammers. Against not so perfect CGers you can also mash B and pop a grenade where it'll instantly explode and only hurt Falco usually. His over b is pretty predictable, his up b is still ridiculously bad for recovering so he's fairly easily gimped... the matchup is slightly in Snake's favor still IMO. But Fox is probably even.
I've never had troubles vs Wolf's either. His blaster is easily power shielded and all of his approaches are very predictable and easily shielded as well. Wolf's recovery seems fairly horrendous too.
DDD definitely has a slight lead in the matchup, but it's very close. The chain grabs give him a free 30-40% minimum granted they know what they're doing, and edge gaurding Snake from letting him struggle out once you get him to the ledge is pretty easy (I've had hard times getting around this, usually to get around it I delay a double jump uair or nair depending where the DDD placed themself, or I double jump backwards and instantly up b to try and get out of the way). You can't even overspace ftilts as Snake to approach because it can just be shielded and a competent DDD will always shield drop dash shield cancel grab before your ftilt animation is over, it's not very hard to time.
Rob does strangely well vs Snake, but I am not entirely sure why because I generally beat PC's Rob about 60-70% of the time. He's just really hard to kill without being at 130%, nearly impossible to edge gaurd, his approaches are generally really hard to punish and he has really annoying tilts (god I hate ROB's up tilt >_>). I don't really know anything else about the matchup though.
I honestly don't know why anyone would think Pikachu does well vs Snake. Pika can't approach at all and thunderjolts are easily power shield/dash/repeat approached and then Pika eats ftilts. You can DI up out of Pika's dsmash, thunder is really easily predictable too. Pika is fairly light on top of it so utilt kills come fairly early.
I think Fox does exceptionally well vs Snake. Snake usually always has to the the one to approach, Fox gets easy damage off of drill -> utilts and laser camping early on, and shield drop dash usmash kills Snake at around 105-110 no matter what, which is fairly early. Falco I think doesn't do as well because he doesn't have a solid killing move that doesn't let Snake live to 200%. I have no trouble dealing with laser spammers. Against not so perfect CGers you can also mash B and pop a grenade where it'll instantly explode and only hurt Falco usually. His over b is pretty predictable, his up b is still ridiculously bad for recovering so he's fairly easily gimped... the matchup is slightly in Snake's favor still IMO. But Fox is probably even.
I've never had troubles vs Wolf's either. His blaster is easily power shielded and all of his approaches are very predictable and easily shielded as well. Wolf's recovery seems fairly horrendous too.
DDD definitely has a slight lead in the matchup, but it's very close. The chain grabs give him a free 30-40% minimum granted they know what they're doing, and edge gaurding Snake from letting him struggle out once you get him to the ledge is pretty easy (I've had hard times getting around this, usually to get around it I delay a double jump uair or nair depending where the DDD placed themself, or I double jump backwards and instantly up b to try and get out of the way). You can't even overspace ftilts as Snake to approach because it can just be shielded and a competent DDD will always shield drop dash shield cancel grab before your ftilt animation is over, it's not very hard to time.
Rob does strangely well vs Snake, but I am not entirely sure why because I generally beat PC's Rob about 60-70% of the time. He's just really hard to kill without being at 130%, nearly impossible to edge gaurd, his approaches are generally really hard to punish and he has really annoying tilts (god I hate ROB's up tilt >_>). I don't really know anything else about the matchup though.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
I agree with all of this, except I think Falco does really really well against Snake. Chaingrab is a free 30-50%, and if they do it until you're at the ledge he can easily do a dair and try to edgeguard you as you come back up. I usually switch to G&W when I play a Falco.
By the way, where are the Snake videos?! I've seen some good videos of DSF playing, but I haven't seen any of anyone else. I posted some of mine earlier in the thread, where's everyone else's?
- Joined
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im pretty sure gw doesn't really get wrecked by snake. hammers 4-9, dtilts, fairs all knock snake out of his recovery. If they go really high you can wait for them to airdodge and then up b them which knocks them back out. Snake can't edgeguard against gw.
The uptilt and upsmash are cancelled by the key, so snake's usual tricks vs people in the air don't work very well. other than avoiding the ftilt, approaching snake isn't too bad. just keep an eye on their grenade placement. i think its an even matchup personally.
~omegablackmage
The uptilt and upsmash are cancelled by the key, so snake's usual tricks vs people in the air don't work very well. other than avoiding the ftilt, approaching snake isn't too bad. just keep an eye on their grenade placement. i think its an even matchup personally.
~omegablackmage
I seem to have some difficulty against Wolfs as Snake. Their spacing game seems to be just right to match Snake's, always putting them just out of range of ftilts or dash upsmashes. Certainly not overly difficult, but one of the more annoying matches in my opinion.
aho43
Smash Lord
rofl @ snake having bad matchups. things can get tricky for him but id never say things are out of his hands, unless you get infinited by ddd in a wall
*g-reg on ahos accound
*g-reg on ahos accound
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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In all honesty, I've never done Kirby vs Snake before, so I wouldn't know anything about it (and no, I can't play wi-fi :D).
Wolf vs Snake is admittedly not my favorite matchup, but I'm not sure that Wolf actually has an advantage. His lasers set the nades off, so he can't laser spam, and his spacing can be a bit of a problem, but just try to out prioritize his attacks with yours when he comes in to hit you. I have a bit of trouble killing Wolf with Snake if I don't edgeguard him though, which is a bit annoying.
Anybody have experience with Snake vs Wario? Not too many good Wario players out there, so it would be tough to check this out.
Wolf vs Snake is admittedly not my favorite matchup, but I'm not sure that Wolf actually has an advantage. His lasers set the nades off, so he can't laser spam, and his spacing can be a bit of a problem, but just try to out prioritize his attacks with yours when he comes in to hit you. I have a bit of trouble killing Wolf with Snake if I don't edgeguard him though, which is a bit annoying.
Anybody have experience with Snake vs Wario? Not too many good Wario players out there, so it would be tough to check this out.
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- 2,617
wario can grab snake's cypher off the stage with his aerial grab, i would be very interested to see how this would affect the matchup.
~omegablackmage
~omegablackmage
I've recently played some rather skilled Snakes (while I won't say they are exactly at a pro level, they were pretty decent) and they couldn't touch my Pit. It didn't take long for me to notice that Snake's entire projectile game was nerfed. What wasn't easily reflected was canceled by hitting Snake with an arrow from anywhere on the stage. Plus you can blow up Snakes C4 and landmines with your arrows.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
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One of my best friends plays a pretty good Pit, and I'd have to say that while Snake may not necessarily have an advantage (although he probably does), he's really not at a disadvantage in that matchup IMO. Also, isn't it impossible for anybody but Snake to blow up the C4? Or did you mean the nades?
Wario can also eat the nades, although I'm not sure that its effective or worthwhile to do so. Other than biting the cypher, I can see Wario having a ridiculously hard time KOing Snake.
Wario can also eat the nades, although I'm not sure that its effective or worthwhile to do so. Other than biting the cypher, I can see Wario having a ridiculously hard time KOing Snake.
Eating the nades actually produces a hitbox in wario's immediate vicinity. Still not all that usefull by any means, but it's something. I have gotten a few humorous kills through this though.
It's more a problem of "who throws first". The frequency that the Wolf fires at works out just so that Snake pulls a grenade but can't throw it before the next laser hits. Thus, he drops the nade, and you end up having to reposition yourself away from the lasers and your own nades. If you can get the nades over to Wolf before he gets the first hit in, it will work out, but otherwise you'll have to work on getting inside through the lasers. I know I've used this as a pretty effective strategy on the Wolf side of things. I'm also not sure that the lasers will set the nades off, I think I recall that the nades just cancel them out without actually exploding. Might be thinking of something else though.
So far I've found Snake can tear through many characters, especially the lighter ones. Characters like Zamus can almost become a joke at times due to how fast they die to him. My style is pretty straightforward, mostly about spacing and not so much about explosive spam.
Two match ups I find myself having trouble with are Pit and Zelda, defensively played. The arrow and Din's Fire spam seem like too much at times. The spam itself doesn't kill, but both characters (especially Zelda) have the tools to get kills in vs Snake. I'd like to hear more about those match ups.
EDIT: About Wario and Wolf... Wario can keep himself pretty safe from Snake and can actually pose a threat IMO. Part of the trouble probably has to do with people not knowing Wario's weird movement that well though, including me. Wolf can be really annoying too from what I've experienced, but he definitely has trouble killing Snake. Outlasting often seems like the way to go with Snake, something all MGS fans should be able to appreciate.
Two match ups I find myself having trouble with are Pit and Zelda, defensively played. The arrow and Din's Fire spam seem like too much at times. The spam itself doesn't kill, but both characters (especially Zelda) have the tools to get kills in vs Snake. I'd like to hear more about those match ups.
EDIT: About Wario and Wolf... Wario can keep himself pretty safe from Snake and can actually pose a threat IMO. Part of the trouble probably has to do with people not knowing Wario's weird movement that well though, including me. Wolf can be really annoying too from what I've experienced, but he definitely has trouble killing Snake. Outlasting often seems like the way to go with Snake, something all MGS fans should be able to appreciate.
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
In the last tourney I played in some Wario player would dair into me then DI hardcore backwards. It ***** my shield and the priority/range was hard to beat. By the time he landed he was too far away to attack. I ended up running away and throwing nades when he would do it.
I think I may have already posted this. Am I crazy?
Also, Wolf is crap against Snake. Ftilt owns any shielded attack from Wolf.
Edit - One more thing: when you're talking **** about Snake, you should call him Gayke (and make sure to emphasize the Gay). That is all.
I think I may have already posted this. Am I crazy?
Also, Wolf is crap against Snake. Ftilt owns any shielded attack from Wolf.
Edit - One more thing: when you're talking **** about Snake, you should call him Gayke (and make sure to emphasize the Gay). That is all.
Arash
Smash Lord
wario vs snake? gimme a break, all snake has to do against dair spam is grenade and shield-drop it. wario blows up.
also, wario is biking towards you? grenade instantly blows up when it hits the bike, knocking wario off.
snake doesn't die to anything except maybe uair, which is easy enough to avoid. also, wario has nothing on all the explosive crap snake has. and when he hovers above wario, there's pretty much nothing he can do about it. i really don't see how this matchup is in wario's favor...
also, wario is biking towards you? grenade instantly blows up when it hits the bike, knocking wario off.
snake doesn't die to anything except maybe uair, which is easy enough to avoid. also, wario has nothing on all the explosive crap snake has. and when he hovers above wario, there's pretty much nothing he can do about it. i really don't see how this matchup is in wario's favor...
Yeah I've never had too much trouble with Wario as a Snake main!!!
A cool thing to do to Wario too is after knocking him off his bike, leave it there, then at some point place a proximity mine under it!!!
It's hilarious when they go to pick it up and get blown up!!!
A cool thing to do to Wario too is after knocking him off his bike, leave it there, then at some point place a proximity mine under it!!!
It's hilarious when they go to pick it up and get blown up!!!
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Dropping a nade doesn't work. It doesn't sound like you've played against a good Wario at all. I'm not saying Wario has the advantage, but it is a tough match up.
Also, his fsmash can kill Snake easily. It also has invincibility frames at the beginning so I often get caught at the beginning of an f-tilt or a jab combo.
I play against a really good Wario here locally, but you should play g-reg's Wario.
Spike characters are great against snake.
You get him offstage, but not too far, then you jump off and spike him during the beginning of his cypher animation. For example, DK is toooo goooooood against Snake because of this. His tilt game is good enough to stand up to Snake super tilts. Land the grabs and cargo throw snake at a low altitude. If you can consistently manage to force him to up+b from a low altitude, you can get some good gimps on him with dair and fwd+b.
Imo, this will be something to use against snake. This might make him not top tier.
You get him offstage, but not too far, then you jump off and spike him during the beginning of his cypher animation. For example, DK is toooo goooooood against Snake because of this. His tilt game is good enough to stand up to Snake super tilts. Land the grabs and cargo throw snake at a low altitude. If you can consistently manage to force him to up+b from a low altitude, you can get some good gimps on him with dair and fwd+b.
Imo, this will be something to use against snake. This might make him not top tier.