Weekly Character Discussion: Snake

[Cort]

Wario's fresh fsmash doesn't kill Snake until around 160-170% if you have decent DI >_> I don't know why anyone would think Wario has an easy time vs Snake really...

And chesterr, can't you just... recover intelligently? Drop down lower and see what they do, double jump backwards and instantly up b away (it goes quite fast if you do it as soon as you double jump). Snake's recovery is somewhat limited, but he still has many options (especially with c4 recovering) to counter most things people try and gimp him with. You can also cancel it prematurely and follow up with whatever you need to.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I'd just like to say how amazing powershield -> uptilt is. I have gotten so many ridiculous kills using that. It happens so fast that most characters can't even react in time to stop it, and we all know how powerful that tilt is.

 

[Marc]

I'd still like to hear more about Pit and Zelda.

 

[chesterr01]

And chesterr, can't you just... recover intelligently? Drop down lower and see what they do, double jump backwards and instantly up b away (it goes quite fast if you do it as soon as you double jump). Snake's recovery is somewhat limited, but he still has many options (especially with c4 recovering) to counter most things people try and gimp him with. You can also cancel it prematurely and follow up with whatever you need to.

Exactly what I mean, push the limits of the game, it's there, I can't believe people can't see it.

You can go very... very low with spikes in the game, and still recover because it's so ridiculously floaty. At 50-60% these spikes become threatening cause they'll kill if you save them. I never do down airs with DK, I use them to spike as a surprise attack, and it's easy to put at least 70% damage with good air coverage. Being smart, and covering where they are, and where they could possibly exit from an airdodge.

You just have to make him get off the cypher so you get him in a position where your attack off stage is there in the early part of the cypher so he'll definitely take the hit. DK can walk off stage, fair and up+b back. Of course it's hard to do, and it's effing risky, but a spike like that'll kill ANY character at low % on a stage like yoshi's island or smashville. With many characters actually, add a spike into toadstool, and you got ****. Give this game 3 years, and this post will become gold. You can do a fair with DK, turn around with the DK punch, anticipate the double jump and try to bair, mash jump to toadstool while pressing up B. It's ridiculous.

I'd just like to say how amazing powershield -> uptilt is. I have gotten so many ridiculous kills using that. It happens so fast that most characters can't even react in time to stop it, and we all know how powerful that tilt is.

Powershield is very easy in this game too. Dash, powershield, so good. and it's great in combos too when you know your combo won't link because the opponent can attack/airdodge, you prepare a powershield and you keep on going.

yeah I got carried on, so what? >_>

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Exactly what I mean, push the limits of the game, it's there, I can't believe people can't see it.

You can go very... very low with spikes in the game, and still recover because it's so ridiculously floaty. At 50-60% these spikes become threatening cause they'll kill if you save them. I never do down airs with DK, I use them to spike as a surprise attack, and it's easy to put at least 70% damage with good air coverage. Being smart, and covering where they are, and where they could possibly exit from an airdodge.

You just have to make him get off the cypher so you get him in a position where your attack off stage is there in the early part of the cypher so he'll definitely take the hit. DK can walk off stage, fair and up+b back. Of course it's hard to do, and it's effing risky, but a spike like that'll kill ANY character at low % on a stage like yoshi's island or smashville. With many characters actually, add a spike into toadstool, and you got ****. Give this game 3 years, and this post will become gold. You can do a fair with DK, turn around with the DK punch, anticipate the double jump and try to bair, mash jump to toadstool while pressing up B. It's ridiculous.



Powershield is very easy in this game too. Dash, powershield, so good. and it's great in combos too when you know your combo won't link because the opponent can attack/airdodge, you prepare a powershield and you keep on going.

yeah I got carried on, so what? >_>

Too good. .

 

[Overswarm]

Synopsis:

Snake lives forever and his most commonly used move does over 20% when it is fresh. He has an auto-jab that can activated by simply holding A, he has a remote mine that can be placed on the edge, his neutral air can do approximately a zillion damage and can be auto-canceled, his u-air can be auto-canceled, his bair can be auto-canceled, his fair helps his recovery, his c4 helps his recovery, and his up+b has super armor. He also has one of the best approaches in the game due to his dash attack to u-smash combo, and at the same time has one of the best defensive options in the game due to being able to simply drop a grenade. On top of all of this, his u-tilt could possibly be the best move in game as far as KO power to speed ratio. On top of all of that, his f-smash grants him the ability to give an almost for-sure KO against any opponent that manages to have their shield broken.

Snake is good.

That said, Snake suffers against projectile spam and his recovery, if done poorly, can be easily gimped. Not only can he be spiked, but if someone grabs him and doesn't hit or throw him, he will not get his up+b back and then is forced to use C4 to recover; at high percents this could kill him. His C4, while useful, cannot actively be used on the stage if he hopes to recover with it later. His down-smash, a proximity mine, can be actively used against him, and while all of Snake's moves are excellent, you are practically forced to save your u-tilt, his f-tilt becomes increasingly weaker as it is the most commonly used move, and his dash attack to u-smash combo is very hard to space properly. Almost all of Snake's moves are situational, meaning that if Snake is on the defense it can put him in a sticky situation. All of his aerials have a ton of lag if they are not auto-canceled, so Snake is practically forced to air dodge when he is in the air; this makes him predictable, and thus punishable.

While Snake's game seems fairly straightforward, a smart player can get around most of his weaknesses. Snake will undoubtedly stay one of the top competitiors for a long period of time; to beat Snake you have to play patiently and aggressively, and you can't miss an opportunity to hit him out of his recovery.

 

[Mew2King]

GW super ultra omega gay powered bucket is the best move in the game for KO power to speed ratio

Ya snake seems like his biggest weakness would be a character that can outcamp him. However, I don't think Falco can do it because Snake can duck under Falco's lasers, and now Falco's Dair kind of sucks and isn't nearly, nearly as dangerous anymore for an approach or attack on the stage, so snake has little to worry about

btw Cort, F smash is 25 not 23, but this is all based on TRAINING MODE which is slightly (5%) weaker than normal mode (vs mode you will die a bit faster), but the proportions should at least be accurate.

with up + toward DI, an F smash at the edge vs GW kills around 40ish, so I'd say on average it's a good edge kill around 40-50% vs most characters.

up tilt has the same range as ikes jab (more or less I forget, but it's close)

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Hrm... I think we could potentially talk for longer, as it seems Snake was a popular subject this week. Hopefully we can continue talking about counterpicks and what not after the thread is moved.

Oh yeah, chesterr, I've been saying what you said in your post since day 1. In fact, edgeguarding isn't limited to just spiking. Due to nearly everyone having an awesome recovery in this game, you can just jump after people when they are off the stage and hit them out again with little risk to yourself. People say I'm pretty good at edgeguarding in Brawl, but I just tell them that they haven't internalized the fact that (almost) everyone has a very viable edgeguard game now.

But anyways, time to move the thread.


Everything after this post is general discussion!

 

[Deleted member]

I know nobody will believe me, but yoshi's got a pretty good matchup against snake (about even id say). Yoshi can grab snakes recovery, and if they are too far u can dair them , racking up alot of damage even if it doesnt kill him. Yoshi''s grab game is really good, so snake has to watch when hes shielding, and his neutral b is great in this aspect also. Snake is pretty easily to juggle also. Yoshi can out spam as well. Tilts are the main thing that pose a serious threat, and dash attack canceled usmash is pretty annoying, but yoshi definately stands a chance. Snake has to rethink when to shield an approch, because a DJC egg lay sets snake up for a juggle and his downward air priority isnt so hot.

 

[Sinz]

M2K hit this on the dot as did many other people. If you can out camp snake you pretty much win. However with the combination of his grenades and his ability to strip them, it becomes harder and harder to out camp him. If a grenade gets to you. Most likely, if your playing a decent Snake, it will stay by you. His Nikita can actually counter projectiles in a sense. It sucks up pits arrows, and falcos lasers, so it can be used pretty effectively.
Snake does however have a great close game. With a killing AAA combo, and all tilts that kill. It seems that none of his moves can't kill.

Also, what does it take to get into the smash back room anyways? Just wondering.

 

[Overswarm]

M2K hit this on the dot as did many other people. If you can out camp snake you pretty much win. However with the combination of his grenades and his ability to strip them, it becomes harder and harder to out camp him. If a grenade gets to you. Most likely, if your playing a decent Snake, it will stay by you. His Nikita can actually counter projectiles in a sense. It sucks up pits arrows, and falcos lasers, so it can be used pretty effectively.
Snake does however have a great close game. With a killing AAA combo, and all tilts that kill. It seems that none of his moves can't kill.

His taunt.

QUID PRO QUO SIR

 

[Sinz]

Overswarm, I actually must disagree with you on that one. I have seen multiple matches where the taunt kills. It works for edgeguarding. It is a killing move sometimes. But hey so is everything else in this game at some percent.

But overall, the taunt is a non killing move.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Oh snap, OS got served!

And honestly, I've never played against a campy Snake before, and I'm anything but campy with my Snake. I just figured he could beat campers pretty hard by playing offensively, as he can lay 2 nades on the ground, a prox mine, and a C4, so good luck being able to stay in one spot :D

 

[wazgood]

needs moar C4 stick > ftilt > detonate discussion.

 

[Jeff Highwind]

a_bit rusty's gonna be gloating in my face from this thread. Anyways before I go on I'm more than likely gonna be repeating things mentioned in this thread on multiple instances, but far be it me to not contribute to something interesting that the mods decided to grace us with.

First off, Snake's core moves. As mentioned in various other Snake complaint threads, about 90% of Snake's moves have the capability to KO, some extraordinarily easier than others. Because of this glorious force of power, I gotta say that Snake lacks the ability to pull off longwinded combos (in before no combos in brawl, I use the term very lightly) but his moves should be used with surgical precision and not be spammed at will. Another thing about Snake's moveset: His smashes are completely unorthodox. His Fsmash is an explosive version of Dedede's slow Fsmash, his Usmash has near unlimited vertical range but requires some **** good aim or luck, and his Dsmash doesn't differentiate between Snake and the enemy. A good Snake player knows that smashes aren't everything, but can also find a way to have these circumstances work in their favor (A big example is a MGS "compilation" vid where snake uses the Usmash as a defensive measure to use his Fsmash).

B Moves are...interesting to say the least. Neutral B is a 6 second time-delay explosion with a limit of 2 per instance. Forward B aka the Nikita is a glee-inducing projectile that can KOs and is maneuverable, but not spammable and can leave a man open if used inproperly. Down B is fun as hell for both mindgames and an offensive measure, but detonating has a 1 second delay so timing is a requirement. Up B...what can I say? Super Armor frames initially, outstanding but gimpable recovery, and can damage ( o_O; ).

I gave the B moves their separate paragraph because I couldn't include it with the A skill synopsis, and also couldn't integrate it in this paragraph trying to say how flexibility is the key to making Snake more of an unstoppable force of nature than he already is. The key to beating the Metal Gear Solid games is to think outside the box and use every tool to it's potential, and that's how Snake plays here. Snake's moveset has beautiful synergy and outstanding flexibility. The most notable instance is Snake's "Wavedash," Where one cancels his dash into a Usmash and the momentum carries him across the stage at top speed. This one move grants him an amazing boon in mobility, ground defense and can knock people off balance if you fake out with missed Mortar Slides or just basic dash attacks. The Grenade is a lovely tool that can act as a timed explosion if cooked long enough, a method of gaining distance against a rather gung-ho opponent, or even as a psuedo "Marth Counterattack" if used just before taking damage or shielding an attack with a grenade in hand. Down Throw is the evilest thing in the planet, capable of either chain grabs, setups for shorthopped Nair/Dairs, or a C4 stick with a well-timed spot-dodge. As stated in the teaser for that devious thread in Tactical Discussion, Snake's strategies are limited only by a user's imagination.

Snake's not god though, which is funny because technically he's a punch in the face against Creationist theorists (you know, cloning and all). Snake's air game is fairly weak compared to others, 3/5 of his moves are meant to KO and can be effortlessly punished if used incorrectly. The other two are godsends, but can be predictable if an opponent knows what they are looking for. Ground game is where Snake is superior, but he has a problem with people with projectile spam, namely Toon Link, Wolf and Olimar. Olimar is by far his worst opponent because not only a good Olimar destroy Snake effortlessly in the air but those nasty little Pikmin can be used as shields against the Nikita or a tossed grenade. Toon Link can hold off Snake with a hoarde of Bombs, Arrows and that annoying Boomerang and has massive KO potential with the Fsmash combo and his psuedo "Ken combo" (Back Throw, Bair, Bair off ledge, Dair spike). There are other discussed weaknesses that I'd like to see myself (Zelda and ROB comes to mind) but anyone I wanna play against over WiFi seems to have poor internet or is on another land mass.

Overall, I just see him as amazing but not infallable. Too many fans see him as "top tier," "god tier" etc etc but I just cant see him as being the new Marth/Falco/Fox/Etc. I really dont know what else to say, especially since after making this wall of text I just saw that Slamurai Panda said that it's now for general discussion. I'd say more but my cognitive functions have been taxed to hell with all the college work this month.

 

[abit_rusty]

Nominate Olimar for a Snake counter.

Jeff mentioned him, and Oli, next to ROB, has been my toughest matchup thus far.

Snake's weight works against him here, since Olimar has quite the juggling ability on the heavy characters. Right off the bat, at 0%, he can do an inescapable up throw to running upsmash (chasing your DI). Quick 25-30% damage depending on the pikmin. He can do this at least once more, IIRC, until you're able to DI far enough/air dodge out of it. At mid percents he can dthrow to fair, though this can be air dodged, but it still allows him to pop snake up where he's most vulnerable. Oli's uair, nair, and utilt can also juggle well, and both have an an extended hit box. At low percents he can combo from an utilt or falling uair/nair with a few jabs and easily re-grab or smash. Oli is surprisingly speedy as well, allowing him to follow up with the aerial punishment.

Olimar's grab range is excellent, especially with the blue pikmin. Speaking of which, bthrow with the blue pikmin is tremendously strong even against heavyweights like Snake. I've gotten kills (and been killed) w/ fresh blue pikmin bthrow from mid stage, and otherwise it easily sets up for an edgeguard.

Speaking of Pikmin, the little devils provide, for the most part, a meat shield against Snake's grenades/nikita if he keeps them thrown. They set off mines easily too. If you don't approach, the latched pikmin obviously will rack up damage. You can swipe them off with attacks, and they can die from the explosives (except Reds), but it takes only a moment to replenish the minions, and smart Oli's won't waste all their pikmin in one go.

Finally, there's Olimars smashes and aerials. All disjointed hitboxes, all come out rather quickly.. (the yellow pikmin have an extended hitbox, works well for fair and bair, but that's beside the point). Because of this, he's reasonably hard to punish even with a power shield since he'll often be out of range. The fsmash can cycle quickly, deterring an attempt to attack in between the intervals. Dsmash hits both sides instantaneously, and is a quick gtfo move. His uair's multiple hits catch you out of an airdodge coming from above. His dair can meteor spike if you come from below/low horizontal angle. His fair and bair are good for spacing game, especially considering the fact that Oli can SH, throw a pikmin and do a fair both before landing. Not to mention all his smashes pack a punch.

This combination of grab combos, juggling, strong aerials and smashes, a more then decent camping game, and deterrent from projectiles, make him a great contender against Snake. Oli just needs to use his attributes to rack up damage and finish with a well spaced/punishing smash or bthrow.

Of course we can't ignore the downsides: certainly there is Olimar's gimpable recovery and his light weight, and the fact that an Olimar without pikmin is like a fat kid in dodgeball. I'm not sure if that's enough to outweigh his pros though.

Discuss counter strategies?

a_bit rusty's gonna be gloating in my face from this thread.

Lol no gloating, just glad Snake was chosen Best char eva.

 

[Jeff Highwind]

Olimar for a Snake counter?

I read through this and not once was he mentioned. Oli, next to ROB, has been my toughest matchup thus far.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD MY WALL OF TEXT! I PREEMPTED YOU AND MENTIONED HIM!

 

[abit_rusty]

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAD MY WALL OF TEXT! I PREEMPTED YOU AND MENTIONED HIM!

Hm. Yes, yes you did. Curses. lol.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, I actually must disagree with you on that one. I have seen multiple matches where the taunt kills. It works for edgeguarding. It is a killing move sometimes. But hey so is everything else in this game at some percent.

But overall, the taunt is a non killing move.

His taunt cannot kill. You are lying.

>_>

<_<

 

[Jeff Highwind]

Hm. Yes, yes you did. Curses. lol.

Haha yes but you do better by gutting the analysis apart while I just scraped it with a nasty boo-boo. It's to be expected though from the guy that's made about two publications on competitive Snake while I just did one on 1p Intense boss battles Snake.

 

[Illussionary]

I'd have to say that Falco is an adequate Snake counter. A good Falco can actually out camp Snake. Even though Snake's missiles can deflect Falco's Laser it can be hard to do when a Falco is jumping up and down shooting you. Another problem I have with Falco is that darn reflector. This next one may only be me, but I find myself getting spiked a lot while using the Cypher. Falco's chaingrab can be extremely annoying and hard to DI out too, since Snake can be chaingrabbed to higher percents then most characters because of his fast fall-speed. Thats about Overall that a good Falco can give Snake a run for his money.

 

[Deadlypudding]

Pikachu can really hurt Snake when he's rcovering. Thunder can cover the key "drop-zone" for a SNake recovering above the stage. A decent Snake can air dogde the Thunder but then becomes vulnerable to any ariel attack Pikachu may make on Snake. The only other option Snake has would be to grab the ledge which has its own weaknesses as well.

Being a smaller, faster character also makes a problem for Snake since Pikachu can outmanuever Snake and duck grenades. Pikachu can also attempt to outcamp Snake with his neutral B projectile, though Snake can counter this similarily to how he would other campers. Pikachu to me seems to be one o the harder matchups for Snake.

I also agree with Jeff that Olimar might be the worst for Snake.

Overall impression of Snake is that he is incredibly fun to play as. He also can act as an anti-camper character since he can cut of areas of the stage with mines and C4, as well as soak up projectiles with Nikita, spam grenades, strip any caught grenades from his opponents, and has a very safe approach with his Mortar Slide. He is a great character but has trouble with many of the other higher up characters such as G&W, Wolf, Olimar, R.O.B., Toon Link, and Pikachu.

 

[Jeff Highwind]

Protip against Pikajerk: Ftilt's second half, Utilt, Dtilt, Usmash, and DASH ATTACK can cancel Pikachu's projectile spam. A well timed non-impact mortar slide can get you in close for some fuzzy animal ****.

 

[StoleUrCar]

Nominate Olimar for a Snake counter.

Jeff mentioned him, and Oli, next to ROB, has been my toughest matchup thus far.

Snake's weight works against him here, since Olimar has quite the juggling ability on the heavy characters. Right off the bat, at 0%, he can do an inescapable up throw to running upsmash (chasing your DI). Quick 25-30% damage depending on the pikmin. He can do this at least once more, IIRC, until you're able to DI far enough/air dodge out of it. At mid percents he can dthrow to fair, though this can be air dodged, but it still allows him to pop snake up where he's most vulnerable. Oli's uair, nair, and utilt can also juggle well, and both have an an extended hit box. At low percents he can combo from an utilt or falling uair/nair with a few jabs and easily re-grab or smash. Oli is surprisingly speedy as well, allowing him to follow up with the aerial punishment.

Olimar's grab range is excellent, especially with the blue pikmin. Speaking of which, bthrow with the blue pikmin is tremendously strong even against heavyweights like Snake. I've gotten kills (and been killed) w/ fresh blue pikmin bthrow from mid stage, and otherwise it easily sets up for an edgeguard.

Speaking of Pikmin, the little devils provide, for the most part, a meat shield against Snake's grenades/nikita if he keeps them thrown. They set off mines easily too. If you don't approach, the latched pikmin obviously will rack up damage. You can swipe them off with attacks, and they can die from the explosives (except Reds), but it takes only a moment to replenish the minions, and smart Oli's won't waste all their pikmin in one go.

Finally, there's Olimars smashes and aerials. All disjointed hitboxes, all come out rather quickly.. (the yellow pikmin have an extended hitbox, works well for fair and bair, but that's beside the point). Because of this, he's reasonably hard to punish even with a power shield since he'll often be out of range. The fsmash can cycle quickly, deterring an attempt to attack in between the intervals. Dsmash hits both sides instantaneously, and is a quick gtfo move. His uair's multiple hits catch you out of an airdodge coming from above. His dair can meteor spike if you come from below/low horizontal angle. His fair and bair are good for spacing game, especially considering the fact that Oli can SH, throw a pikmin and do a fair both before landing. Not to mention all his smashes pack a punch.

This combination of grab combos, juggling, strong aerials and smashes, a more then decent camping game, and deterrent from projectiles, make him a great contender against Snake. Oli just needs to use his attributes to rack up damage and finish with a well spaced/punishing smash or bthrow.

Of course we can't ignore the downsides: certainly there is Olimar's gimpable recovery and his light weight, and the fact that an Olimar without pikmin is like a fat kid in dodgeball. I'm not sure if that's enough to outweigh his pros though.

Discuss counter strategies?



Lol no gloating, just glad Snake was chosen Best char eva.

Umm unplug Olimar player's controller->!!!->profit XD

Snake is awesome end of story.

 

[abit_rusty]

Umm unplug Olimar player's controller->!!!->profit XD

Snake is awesome end of story.

Uh ...yea, let's be realistic now. He is awesome though.

So far, for me, I've gotten half-decent results doing hit and run tactics and finishing with a tilt kill. Problem is, this strat is pretty forseeable and the Oli I play expects an attempt at a kill move when he's at a high percent so he plays very defensively. I thought I had Oli's matchup in the bag until I played this Olimar just today. Demolished.

 

[Jeff Highwind]

I dont think you can afford the dental procedures after the player effectively has knocked you unconscious and tap danced on your face afterward.

 

[MalcolmM]

if ur being camped by anything that doesnt explode or a laser....jus hold the A button and marvel @ his jabs. the guys jabs beat most projectiles in the game. how ridiculous is that?

 

[jmanup85]

also wasnt it mentioned that you can not only grab Snake's up-b and gimp him but also footstool jump and gimp kill him as well?

edit: i would also like input from the pro's on the Snake vs Luigi match-up if you have any input on it and i'll see if theres any info i can give as well

 

[behemoth]

Snake has immense mixup ability using his grenades. If you pull out a second grenade while your first one is still in the air, then shield, the first one stops in mid-air and drops.

Another interesting tactic is dropping grenades while in the air. Cort mentioned using the mortar for edgeguarding, and while I think that strat has its merits, there is the perpetual annoyance of the shells going in whichever direction they so choose.

With the grenade, you can jump out over the edge kinda high, drop the nade, and continue into your fast-falled bair. Or, if you're quick, I suppose you can combine this with a mortar strike.

Another use for the air-dropped grenades (take it from a diddy main) is to hem in your opponent.

A prominent strategy in much of the higher-level Snake play that I've seen has been using projectiles and other objects to limit your opponent's options, particularly those concerning evasion. Air-dropped grenades are simply another measure to use to this end.

I will play around with him a little more, and see what I come up with.

Btw, I fully agree on the "Pika == counter" front. My roommate plays a mean Snake, and Pika is one of the few characters who can get inside him, yet still have the power to deliver some knockouts.

Of course, my favorite counter to Snake is Sheik... but something tells me that this statement will be met with disbelief. She's just. so. fast.

 

[Elemental Knight]

A few quick thoughts:

First of all, Snake can crawl under Fox and Falco's lasers, rendering their laser spam just about useless.

Snake's down tilt doesn't get the credit it deserves. It has great range and priority, and it's just the thing to mix up your game. It's got slightly more range than the ftilt, and I like to use it just in that instance.

I have to say that grenades are way more useful than just for projectile spam--I like to use them in close range a lot. There's nothing better to stop an aggressive MK player than constantly shield-dropping some grenades right in their face. Having grenades right around the area you're both focused on can really disrupt any player.

Snake's aerial game gets ripped on a lot, and, in some ways, rightfully so. But I don't think his bair gets nearly enough credit for its versatility, speed, and length. His other aerial moves, as mentioned by others, are highly situational. But I am in love with the killing and edgeguarding machine that is his nair. Dair can be useful too . . . it's a nice surprise approach attack in my book.

Some matchup thoughts:

I routinely play a very solid Wario, and while Wario does have some tricks, Snake's definitely got the upper hand. Shield dropping grenades is an instantaneous way to stop the bike. Mortar spam and uptilt keep Wario from hitting with that obnoxious dair. If Wario down smashes, it's instant punishment. His side smash is hard to hit with, and most of Snake's tilts come out so quickly that they get in before Wario's side smash. What Wario does have going for him are his bizarre movements and potential unpredictability. But that's just not enough to beat Snake.

From my experience, Olimar and Pikachu are the worst matchups for Snake. Olimar's a pain for all the reasons mentioned thus far--nothing new really to add there except that Snake seems to do all right at killing the Pikmin themselves, and Olimar can struggle against his tilts and explosives. But if you've got a campy Olimar, Snake's going to have some trouble. Pikachu's just nasty, in part because his Thunder creates a wall that's difficult to penetrate when you have to cypher recover, and he can edgeguard well if you go straight for the edge. Not to mention that he's small, hard to hit, and capable of super quick movements that can mess with Snake's spacing.

I really, really, really think that Snake has the upper hand over Meta Knight. As mentioned earlier, grenades can be MK's bane--and as a Snake player you should be more than willing to trade damage with MK. If you're both at 100%, Snake's going to take care of business long before MK. And that's really what this matchup boils down to for me: MK needs to get Snake to at least 140% to kill with the Shuttle Loop or dsmash, and both of those are somewhat predictable. Even MK's edgeguarding game has a wrench thrown into it by the super armor frames of Snake's cypher. Snake's uptilt starts killing MK around like 90%, nair and dair are especially lethal (again, I love nair as an edgeguarding move). Quite simply, Snake's got all the tools to dismantle MK.

As some have mentioned, Wolf is a different kind of matchup for Snake, but I think in the end he's got the upper hand. I think what's so tricky with Wolf is that the range on his side smash in particular can really mess with Snake's spacing. He can't crawl under the laser either, which is more of an irritant than an actual risk. I feel that Wolf is best against Snake when he's smothering, but Snake's tilts come out so fast and with such priority that he tends to come through in the end.

I don't have a lot to say about ROB. I play a decent ROB player, but not a super good one, so my tactics against him probably won't be universal. I should say that I find ROB's top incredibly disruptive, and his aerial moves (notably nair) continually surprise me with their range and versatility. At the same time, I feel that the speed of Snake's tilts give him an advantage up close, and the mortar slide can help close the distance with ROB somewhat quickly (that's where the top really grinds my gears). Anyway, I think it'd be a pretty even matchup.

No one's really mentioned him yet (that I can see), but I think that Marth has the potential to give Snake some trouble. He's got great range and speed on everything, and he too can upset Snake's spacing tactics. The counter can be such a pain when in close. I feel like Marth inspires a campy Snake, but a Marth that can stay just at the edge of Snake's range while dishing damage (and with the knockback of the sword's edge, mind you) can stand a good chance.

I really think that Snake's the best in this game . . . for now. A lot still has to be seen about how other characters evolve, but for the time being, Snake reigns supreme. Snake's mindgames make him so flexible, and his raw power keeps him in every match. Not to mention that Snake's infinitely fun to play as. Man, what a character.

 

[behemoth]

Oh, and another little situational ploy that works REALLY WELL against lighter characters, an easy KO when their damage is high:

pull out a grenade, then when they shield to avoid the ftilt/utilt of doom, just grab them and allow the grenade to explode. They'll be knocked around quite a bit.

Oh, and something I haven't really tried, but sounds fun (I'm a diddy/sheik main, now I wanna play some Snake!) is to drop a grenade, dash past and execute a turning grab so that you both slide a ways away from the grenade, then throw them towards it.

More to come after experimentation.

 

[Hylian]

im pretty sure gw doesn't really get wrecked by snake. hammers 4-9, dtilts, fairs all knock snake out of his recovery. If they go really high you can wait for them to airdodge and then up b them which knocks them back out. Snake can't edgeguard against gw.

The uptilt and upsmash are cancelled by the key, so snake's usual tricks vs people in the air don't work very well. other than avoiding the ftilt, approaching snake isn't too bad. just keep an eye on their grenade placement. i think its an even matchup personally.

~omegablackmage

I disagree.


First off, almost no character can edgeguard GW. Snake doesn't need to. GW is the second lightest character and dies off the top super easy. Snakes utilt is scary for GW players.

GW just has to do soo much work to keep up with snake. Snakes out of shield game is almost too much for GW to handle.


For example, the Key goes through snakes upsmash, but snake has plenty of time to shield and then just punish the lag on the dair with ftilt or utilt or jab.


Snake is also really hard to edgeguard. Yeah, you can hit him out of his cypher when he is low pretty easily, but he will just keep using up B until he is above the stage and drop.

Your solution to this does not work. Snake simply has to not airdodge until right before he hits the ground. You can hit him with upB, but he can dI hard left or right and GW cannot follow up with any move. If GW uses any other move, it's pretty easy to see and just airdodge.


Overall, GW can't really pressure snake like he can other characters, and snakes out of shield game shuts down most of GW's offensive options. Even if you space bair well, snake can still ftilt or motar slide you. Utilt kills stupidly low, and grenades make attacking snake next to impossible.

 

[Vro]

A few quick thoughts:

First of all, Snake can crawl under Fox and Falco's lasers, rendering their laser spam just about useless.

Crawling renders Snake completely useless. Not only will your opponent see you approaching from a mile away, you're also losing incredible amounts of speed, which the spacies will use against you. In addition, Falco's lasers can be timed to be very low, making it impossible for you to crawl > stand up.


In regards to Snake in general, I believe his defensive game is bar none. However I don't believe he has the stamina to confront 1v1 Brawls in the long run. Heavy fighters like Ike and DDD will give him a lot of trouble if he can't get them out of his face. Lighter characters, although easier for Snake to push away, have the much needed speed to outclass him.

I think he's a good character no doubt, but to say things such as "best character" or "sleeping giant" are quick assumptions. I believe those who main Snake will have to study individual matchups very carefully in order to succeed, for Snake's arsenal is so versatile. The roster is 35, but I'm sure you can sub-categorize them into 5-8 groups for Snake's matchups. I believe he's best suited to counter-picks or team battles.

 

[Cort]

I don't think you've ever played a good Snake, Vro. What on Earth do you mean by "I don't believe he has the stamina to confront 1v1 Brawls in the long run. Heavy fighters like Ike and DDD will give him a lot of trouble if he can't get them out of his face. Lighter characters, although easier for Snake to push away, have the much needed speed to outclass him."

None of that makes any sense to me. Brawl is all about safe approaches and punishing out of shield, both of which Snake can easily do. Ike can't approach Snake at all without first hitting his shield, DDD always has to wait for Snake to mess up before grabbing him. Snake can safely and randomly space in front of these characters without fear of getting hit, and the moment they try and approach you can simply shield or dash away to see what they do.

Dealing with projectile campers is easy. Walk forward, shield, rinse and repeat. It's not long before they've run out of stage to camp on.

And I don't know what you meant by the last part of your post. There are "Characters that go even with Snake" and "Characters that have a very hard time vs Snake". That's all I've ever experienced in tournament play.

 

[Ulevo]

I have not played with any extremely effective Snake players, but a friend of mine likes to mess around with him. I honestly have to say that Snake has a hard time with Jigglypuff.

Snake has the obvious advantages of having the needed power to KO Jiggly, as she's ridiculously light. Any vertical move is her nightmare, and getting hit by his Tilts isn't fun either. But Snakes Cypher is so easily gimped by her, and his weight is actually a disadvantage to him in this matchup. Every Fair and Bair not only knocks him off his Cypher, but farther and farther away each time. If he approaches too close to the ledge, he either eats a DSmash that sends him in a bad angle, a FSmash, or his Cypher is grabbed. If he's farther away, Jigglypuff proceeds to Aerial him out of the screen. There have been many matches I've played where it consisted of me Fairing, Bairing or Throwing Snake off a ledge and either Fairing/Baring him to death or spiking him against the stage with another aerial.

Jigglypuff also has the aerial maneuvarability, like Wario, to weave in and out of Snakes range as he shields. Weaving Dairs eat at the shield. If Snake ever makes the mistake of using his Nokita Missle, Jiggly ***** him with Roll Out too, which now takes almost no time to charge for a killing blow.

I may need to play an exceptional Snake to alter my opinion on this, but once Snake is off the ledge, Jigglypuff just makes him helpless from what I've experienced.

Anyone have opinions on a Diddy matchup? I would think the Bananas would interfere with Snakes mobility and Mortar Slide.

 

[Jeff Highwind]

On the note of Ducking to avoid Laser Spam, it's worthless. As Vro mentioned it renders your mobility useless but if you do anything out of that prone crouch position (Including move), then Snake's vertical wireframe doubles in that animation and he gets hit by anything.

Cort's Shield Movement is probalby the best method. Theoretically the Snakedash should neutralize one shot but then the other shots will have to be shielded.

 

[3GOD]

wario vs snake? gimme a break, all snake has to do against dair spam is grenade and shield-drop it. wario blows up.

also, wario is biking towards you? grenade instantly blows up when it hits the bike, knocking wario off.

snake doesn't die to anything except maybe uair, which is easy enough to avoid. also, wario has nothing on all the explosive crap snake has. and when he hovers above wario, there's pretty much nothing he can do about it. i really don't see how this matchup is in wario's favor...

The grendae shield-drop doesn't always work out for Snake against Wario. If Wario approaches with Dair, he can damage the shield and pick up the grenade. Now a smart Wario player has a projectile to throw back at Snake quickly. If the Snake doesn't have a grenade already cooked, this strategy isn't very effective, and a worthwhile Wario won't let Snake have any breathing room to cook grenades.

Also, why would Wario Bike in this matchup other than recovery and an occasional surprise Bike or something?

The part about Snake not getting KO'd easily is true and probably the reason that the matchup is close to even. But, Wario can basically force Snake to recover very high. Snake really is very safe doing this, but Wario can attempt to lure an airdodge and then Uair, Bair Snake back off stage, or maybe just grab him as he lands (none of these are guaranteed, but they can work sometimes). Another possibility after luring an airdodge is to hit with a nearly charged waft - this has great knockback but obviously requires Wario to have the waft at the proper charge level.

Wario can keep himself pretty safe from Snake and can actually pose a threat IMO. Part of the trouble probably has to do with people not knowing Wario's weird movement that well though, including me.

I agree with this...Wario has some good stuff against Snake, but a lot of it is probably the fact that most Snake players have never played a good Wario and just don't know what to expect exactly.

Wario can also eat the nades, although I'm not sure that its effective or worthwhile to do so. Other than biting the cypher, I can see Wario having a ridiculously hard time KOing Snake.

I never eat grenades really, but I do like to throw them back at Snake if I happen to grab one. The Bite can be used if the Snake player comes up from below the stage level, and the hitbox of the Cypher knocks Wario free while Snake falls to his doom. As mentioned above, Snake's best option is to recover very high to avoid this possible gimp, but I've begun playing around with the Bike Jump as a possible way of catching Snake as he begins his Cypher up high away from the stage. All in all though, Wario does have some trouble getting the KO against Snake, but not really much more than most other characters.

To sum up my post, I think the matchup with Wario is pretty even with maybe a slight advantage to Wario. I don't think it makes big difference though since Wario has a whole slew of characters that give him much more trouble than he does Snake.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I don't know if this will help the discussion on wario, but futile ended dsf's streak using wario, he completely abused snakes recovery. The few characters I've seen work well on snake are wario, DK, falco, and the one i'm going to keep secret for a while

 

[Elemental Knight]

I still disagree about crawling to avoid lasers. While the technicalities mentioned are true, it does what's important from afar--avoiding the laser. You get in close, and of course you're not going to go prone. But then again, they're not going to laser, either. Plus, you can shield back to your feet straight from being prone. In my mind, it's a good way to tell someone from afar that you're not going to play their camping game. I fail to see how it leaves you vulnerable.

Against someone like Olimar, obviously it's never a good idea, but against the spacies, I don't see the harm in it. And the advantage I see (however slight) over the shielding method is that you've got a full shield to work with once they get in close.

 

[bman in 2288]

On the note of Ducking to avoid Laser Spam, it's worthless. As Vro mentioned it renders your mobility useless but if you do anything out of that prone crouch position (Including move), then Snake's vertical wireframe doubles in that animation and he gets hit by anything.

Cort's Shield Movement is probalby the best method. Theoretically the Snakedash should neutralize one shot but then the other shots will have to be shielded.

I'm going to disagree with this. Numerous times have spacies (not Wolf) tried to laser me, only to fail due to Snake's low clearance to the ground. It's very possible to Crawl up to Fox or Falco if they try to laser-spam Snake and punish with a dtilt or rising utilt. The lasers never hit him, at least from my experience in laser-spam.

Wolf's a different story, his shots don't go far but they are vertically wide, allowing them to hit Snake during his crawl/prone.