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Weekly Character Discussion: Fox
- Thread starter Overswarm
- Start date
- Status
I claim Fox as one of my mains and really think he is a better character than people are giving him credit for. Laser spam still forces an approach, and upsmash is sooooooooooo powerful, and the other smashes are all plenty functional.
However, I'm not going to say he should be drastically high either.
However, I'm not going to say he should be drastically high either.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I see fox doing quite well or even vs top top characters, and then losing horribly to a few others (pikachu, ZSS, maybe a couple others? not sure). The good news is, all of the characters he loses horribly to are uncommonly played and thus will have a few significant players that are well known. That said, if you sit down to play Snakeee, don't pick Fox.
Also, in light of Fox's new...make-over, most people I know and myself refer to him as BEAR. Cause he looks like a bear, if you can get the tail out of the picture. Serious and deep meanings behind this to consider.
Uptilt has goddam suction cup boots. **** that move.
Also, in light of Fox's new...make-over, most people I know and myself refer to him as BEAR. Cause he looks like a bear, if you can get the tail out of the picture. Serious and deep meanings behind this to consider.
Uptilt has goddam suction cup boots. **** that move.
chillindude829
Smash Master
how are the character discussions not done yet
fox also gets ***** by falco
fox also gets ***** by falco
Fox is hard to play against when playing slower characters.
It feels like if I'm not constantly shielding then I hit random usmash all day.
It feels like if I'm not constantly shielding then I hit random usmash all day.
As a Pikachu main, I love playing against Fox. Chaingrab forward for positioning, then down throw regrabs to about 65%, at which point I pummel thrice and down throw one last time into a SH nair, or sometimes, depending on the stage, I F-throw and edgeguard.
In other matchups, I still haven't had any problem beating fox due to his predictability. I usually rush him down and completely ignore his lasers. He's light enough to die soon, so generally trading %s works just fine. Playing as G&W in that matchup is ******** easy IMO. Same with Snake, Metaknight, Donkey Kong and ROB. I just can't imagine fox giving me a hard time. Sure his uptilt combos can rack up a little damage, but most characters have tricksies just like that on fox, plus they are mostly heavier and have better/more diverse killing options.
All around a poor character.
Sidenote: I remember back on wifiwars during the spring there was this guy who was constantly berating other people's tier lists, and acting really condescending and rude. At one point, in response someone's posted tier list, his response was "LOL you put falco above fox? You are ********." I think his name was ThePunch or something like that.
everyone laugh at that guy.
In other matchups, I still haven't had any problem beating fox due to his predictability. I usually rush him down and completely ignore his lasers. He's light enough to die soon, so generally trading %s works just fine. Playing as G&W in that matchup is ******** easy IMO. Same with Snake, Metaknight, Donkey Kong and ROB. I just can't imagine fox giving me a hard time. Sure his uptilt combos can rack up a little damage, but most characters have tricksies just like that on fox, plus they are mostly heavier and have better/more diverse killing options.
All around a poor character.
Sidenote: I remember back on wifiwars during the spring there was this guy who was constantly berating other people's tier lists, and acting really condescending and rude. At one point, in response someone's posted tier list, his response was "LOL you put falco above fox? You are ********." I think his name was ThePunch or something like that.
everyone laugh at that guy.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
shine discourages projectile camping, while lasers enable you to make campers approach you. great for matchups such as ROB and snake. dair fair and utilt combined with grab can make for a good approach game while keeping yourself out of danger. i like the fox vs DDD/ROB matchups. IIRC falco can chaingrab spike fox and he cant get back at all? same with marth grab to dsmash at low %? terrible. oh, and his usmash is still amazingly powerful (kills ROB at like 93% or something).
still has some bad matchups though, against little characters, and characters with high priority moves. also dies extremely early, one of the lightest characters in the game. i think we've all died with fox at some point and been like "I died to THAT? at THAT %??
still has some bad matchups though, against little characters, and characters with high priority moves. also dies extremely early, one of the lightest characters in the game. i think we've all died with fox at some point and been like "I died to THAT? at THAT %??
There's a bogey on his tail
I agree with the sentiment that he seems to do well against larger characters and worse against smaller characters. Against heavies the upsmash hits easier and harder, and negates one of their main advantages.
Pika sucks.
So yeah, some really horrible matchups, but some decent/favored matchups against some very good characters. We'll see if he ends up like Link/DK in Melee.
Pika sucks.
So yeah, some really horrible matchups, but some decent/favored matchups against some very good characters. We'll see if he ends up like Link/DK in Melee.
Totally read that as a Scotty quote.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
I do think Fox can perform in some matchups, and is definitely a better character than some people give him credit for. But he is a solid mid-mid or low-mid tier; likely nothing better than that.
His running upsmash is pretty scary, though. And his laser camping game can get annoying. IMO the best strategy with him is to rack up damage via Dair-uptilt at low percents, throws at low-mid percents (landing a Fair from a throw for over 20% damage can be nice), laser camping at mid-high percents, then upsmash/throw to uair/bair at high percents. Sounds rather basic, but is good enough to stop quite a few characters in their tracks.
His running upsmash is pretty scary, though. And his laser camping game can get annoying. IMO the best strategy with him is to rack up damage via Dair-uptilt at low percents, throws at low-mid percents (landing a Fair from a throw for over 20% damage can be nice), laser camping at mid-high percents, then upsmash/throw to uair/bair at high percents. Sounds rather basic, but is good enough to stop quite a few characters in their tracks.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think the mix-up game that fox has between shinestalling, SH drill, uptilt, fair, etc lets him rack up damage pretty quickly, and is probably as good as his dash upsmash.
although the ability to KO @ 115 tops no questions is pretty amazing.
I just like this character in general.
although the ability to KO @ 115 tops no questions is pretty amazing.
I just like this character in general.
1 word: nair.
nair racks up damage like easy, and it is more safe then all of his other aerials when used properly, especially when the opponent is in the air, or after an uptilt at high percentage. it's great for spacing, and you can fastfall it to chain two in a row, sometimes even three.
as already said, upsmash is pretty reliable, uair kills fairly well lightweights, dsmash does too, and these two moves can be linked after a fastfalled dair. shine still gimps people, great against marth and shorter recoveries, you can even shine people under the level or just stall and dair/nair back onto the stage.
dair into footstool or simply just dair is great for edgeguarding, since fox can recover well in this position, but it can be turned against him quickly. he does struggle against heavier characters though i find, it is hard to gimp a snake I find.
i'm bored, i'm stopping here.
edit: this is me vs fizzi, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnrHKtqRu-o
edit 2: k well his recovery below the edge is predictible, just like in melee. and he dies at low percentages (the other day i saw a fox die at 67% from a gaw dsmash, i couldn't believe it). and he has a lot of bad matchups where rushing in to do damage is too hard because of his lack of range. k now i'm done.
nair racks up damage like easy, and it is more safe then all of his other aerials when used properly, especially when the opponent is in the air, or after an uptilt at high percentage. it's great for spacing, and you can fastfall it to chain two in a row, sometimes even three.
as already said, upsmash is pretty reliable, uair kills fairly well lightweights, dsmash does too, and these two moves can be linked after a fastfalled dair. shine still gimps people, great against marth and shorter recoveries, you can even shine people under the level or just stall and dair/nair back onto the stage.
dair into footstool or simply just dair is great for edgeguarding, since fox can recover well in this position, but it can be turned against him quickly. he does struggle against heavier characters though i find, it is hard to gimp a snake I find.
i'm bored, i'm stopping here.
edit: this is me vs fizzi, enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnrHKtqRu-o
edit 2: k well his recovery below the edge is predictible, just like in melee. and he dies at low percentages (the other day i saw a fox die at 67% from a gaw dsmash, i couldn't believe it). and he has a lot of bad matchups where rushing in to do damage is too hard because of his lack of range. k now i'm done.
Percon
Smash Lord
As said previously, Fox gets completely ***** in certain matchups (ZSS, Pikachu, Falco), but aside from those he's solid.
I've never heard of anyone having trouble killing with Fox. Sliding upsmash is insane. Great speed and distance for something so powerful. Uair, I find, is hard to land, but I've seen a lot of people get taken by surprise by the boost fox gets from his fair; many people meet their demise via double-jumped fair near the top of the screen.
Lasers aren't amazing other than to force approach... which is still useful, I suppose.
Shine is pretty useful. You can use it to alter your falling speed, which is useful for punishing people who think they can prey on you when you land. Shine spiking is just as fun but not nearly as useful...
Fox dies super easy and is edgeguarded just as easily, as mentionned.
Also, am I the only one who thinks his bair is garbage? So many characters have amazing bairs, but Fox's is pretty awful...
I've never heard of anyone having trouble killing with Fox. Sliding upsmash is insane. Great speed and distance for something so powerful. Uair, I find, is hard to land, but I've seen a lot of people get taken by surprise by the boost fox gets from his fair; many people meet their demise via double-jumped fair near the top of the screen.
Lasers aren't amazing other than to force approach... which is still useful, I suppose.
Shine is pretty useful. You can use it to alter your falling speed, which is useful for punishing people who think they can prey on you when you land. Shine spiking is just as fun but not nearly as useful...
Fox dies super easy and is edgeguarded just as easily, as mentionned.
Also, am I the only one who thinks his bair is garbage? So many characters have amazing bairs, but Fox's is pretty awful...
It CAN kill.. but it's mostly fail. I find it as reliable as a charge shot, and just as rewarding. I'll use it maybe once to try and kill the other guy, use it here and there and it'll succeed like 1 out of 8 attempts.
edit: next time i'll play, I'll check if you can combo into bair somehow. Other than that, I think the move has more cons than pros.
edit: next time i'll play, I'll check if you can combo into bair somehow. Other than that, I think the move has more cons than pros.
bair is an aerial Fox fsmash.
chillindude829
Smash Master
no way percon, bair is awesome. you just gotta get the timing down and its ****.
exactly like melee roy.
Percon
Smash Lord
hmm... I guess I just find bair hard to land. Maybe it just doesn't stay out long enough for a Kirby main.
also, I forgot to mention: lasers to replenish stale moves is pretty neat, though it doesn't help Fox nearly as much as it would other characters. Fox's moves are usually fine by the time he needs to kill...
also, I forgot to mention: lasers to replenish stale moves is pretty neat, though it doesn't help Fox nearly as much as it would other characters. Fox's moves are usually fine by the time he needs to kill...
Still, do you get the feeling that this character will only get better as people learn more and more how to trim out the frames in his motion and learn the safe situations? I think he has all the essential tools, but I think that he's just going to be very hard to play perfectly. Just like in the old game, he gets punished terribly, though now its just by the fact that he's so light.
I feel like this is a character that will continue to grow, but in the end maybe even that will still just leave him in "meh" territory. I don't foresee him ever becoming a top tier character, mind you, but I could see a DK-esque rise over the course of the game to just below the tournament winners.
I feel like this is a character that will continue to grow, but in the end maybe even that will still just leave him in "meh" territory. I don't foresee him ever becoming a top tier character, mind you, but I could see a DK-esque rise over the course of the game to just below the tournament winners.
Fox doesn't have anything very gimicky about his playstyle either (Unless I'm missing something). He's got a few neat tricks, at the last tournament I went to I saw a Fox player combo a downthrow into a full hopped Fair (or Double jumped, I can't remember), and the hovering property of the fair helps make this happen.
You can do stuff with him like punish attacks with up smash out of shield.
He's a good character assuming that you don't get hit. He forces approaches with the laser and the shine (lets not talk about planking >.>), but when he does get hit, he gets hit hard. Poor bugger
You can do stuff with him like punish attacks with up smash out of shield.
He's a good character assuming that you don't get hit. He forces approaches with the laser and the shine (lets not talk about planking >.>), but when he does get hit, he gets hit hard. Poor bugger
(lol Australian Colloquialism)
He has teh ph1reph0x?
Percon
Smash Lord
I think you can cancel the Firefox if you press up on the control pad.
Aparently if you fire fox into an angled slope you can cancel it into anything.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211108
EDIT: I lol'd at Sliq's hint.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211108
EDIT: I lol'd at Sliq's hint.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I agree with Prime to an extent... I don't think Fox has the tools to overcome his extreme matchups though. When Fox is countered, he is COUNTERED.
He's definitely a great character to have in your pocket though. Fox is just naturally powerful. Not good, but powerful. If you're a good player, it can even out. Playing Vidjo's Fox, I never felt like I was completely outclassed... but since I was forced to play a secondary (MK was banned and his Peach had my ROB in a vice), it was difficult to keep up with him. Vidjo was able to move me around like a chess piece once he figured me out, and was safe the majority of the time. Fox is one of the few characters that can actually pressure you at all times.
He's definitely a great character to have in your pocket though. Fox is just naturally powerful. Not good, but powerful. If you're a good player, it can even out. Playing Vidjo's Fox, I never felt like I was completely outclassed... but since I was forced to play a secondary (MK was banned and his Peach had my ROB in a vice), it was difficult to keep up with him. Vidjo was able to move me around like a chess piece once he figured me out, and was safe the majority of the time. Fox is one of the few characters that can actually pressure you at all times.
excellent on paper but lacking in practice? haha
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Synopsis:
Fox can dish it out, but he can't take it. Fox is a character that is very certainly a threat, but his defensive options are poor when compared to other characters. The ability to be edgeguarded easily is a bad thing, and when you edgeguard him exactly like you've done in Melee for the past decade you've already got all the practice in the world so it is unlikely you'll have difficulty adapting.
His combos, while not guaranteed, are excellent, powerful, and can be used often. His shine can be used to stall for timing purposes, greatly hurting an opponent's chance at any sort of juggling game. Fox can force approaches with his laser, even on other projectile characters due to his shine, and because of this has a natural advantage that many characters do not have.
Despite his horrible matchups, this character's offensive potential makes him a viable character. The ability to use his u-smash, an easy smash to land in comparison to many KO moves in this game, to get KOs at early % against even the strongest in this game is a boon that not many can argue against.
Fox can dish it out, but he can't take it. Fox is a character that is very certainly a threat, but his defensive options are poor when compared to other characters. The ability to be edgeguarded easily is a bad thing, and when you edgeguard him exactly like you've done in Melee for the past decade you've already got all the practice in the world so it is unlikely you'll have difficulty adapting.
His combos, while not guaranteed, are excellent, powerful, and can be used often. His shine can be used to stall for timing purposes, greatly hurting an opponent's chance at any sort of juggling game. Fox can force approaches with his laser, even on other projectile characters due to his shine, and because of this has a natural advantage that many characters do not have.
Despite his horrible matchups, this character's offensive potential makes him a viable character. The ability to use his u-smash, an easy smash to land in comparison to many KO moves in this game, to get KOs at early % against even the strongest in this game is a boon that not many can argue against.
I played Fox the other day and I pseudo-waveshined someone across Lylat using the short hop->Shine->land->Run and repeat method and ended it with a shine off the stage as well.
**** was epic.
@Overswarm: Sounds about right to me.
**** was epic.
@Overswarm: Sounds about right to me.
IT's been like, two weeks. Why hasn't this been moved?
got it - i don't normally move these.
that was weird >_>
that was weird >_>
A6M Zero
Smash Ace
When I received word that Fox would be the next character to be discussed by the SBR I got both excited and anxious. Writing this, I haven’t yet read what the SBR thinks of Fox but I can imagine that they’ll hold him in far less regard than Fenrir, Marsulas, Xiivi, Kheldar or myself to mention a few.
As much as Fox has changed from melee he’s still a very useable character. He has very attractive upsides to his game, and his downsides while weakening don’t severely debilitate him.
Main Pros:
- Very fast and maneuverable. Fox can control his movement in every aspect. He has a very good vertical clearance with his rising-fair to go with decent jumps. Being a fast-faller and a quick jumper/runner along with his ability to stall in the air gives Fox a powerful strength in being able to change his movement at any time and then capitalize on whatever happens afterwards. The ability to always have multiple options and to never be predictable is what allows Fox to abuse his moveset, which leads us to the next pro.
- Moveset allows for very large amounts of damage and solid kills. While Fox doesn’t have Snake’s utilt or Metaknight’s tornado his interchangeable moves work together in combination to inflict extensive damage in response to your opponents defense. Fox’s drill can combo into uptilts and a smash (at least 50) if you give them enough hitstun, and can combo into a jab -> grab if you land facing them. Firefox after a drill is a first class punishing move on low shields, and punishes an opponent who spot-dodges after your drill. Each of those are good for approximately 30%. A solid back-air, decent gimping moves and flexibility, and the godly upsmash contribute to Fox keeping up with characters who would normally outpace him kill-wise. A very solid and flexible recovery with his rising fair and shine-stall complete a full package.
Main Cons:
- Overall low range and priority. This contributes to most of Fox’s difficulty in any match. Although Fox is able to overcome most of this, it forces him into a reactionary character and is probably the reason that he has a smaller following. It’s definitely the reason he has a steep learning curve to gaining the success against Snakes and Falcos that top level Fox players will speak of.
- Lightweight and fast-falling. Fox’s light weight keeps him out of obvious high- tier. Not much to discuss here. While Fox would normally kill way ahead of his opponents due to his fast damage and upsmash his light weight leaves him vulnerable due dying as soon. The combination of potent lethality and high killability makes Fox matches a knife-fight. His fast fall speed creates his 3 main counters; Pikachu, ZSS, and Sheik.
Fox as a Secondary:
Although I main Fox, I think the biggest argument for Fox as high tier is his capability as a secondary. He has almost equal or even advantageous matches against Snake, DDD, Game and Watch, Falco, ROB, Wario, Wolf, Toon Link, Marth, Pit, Lucario, Diddy, and DK. Although his matchup against Metaknight is in question, it can be agreed that it is at least as good as virtually all characters below top tier because of his kill potential and anti-tornado aerials.
Being this playable against the vast majority of top-tier characters makes, in my opinion, Fox one of the absolute best overall characters to pick up if you want a better match against the upper cast or you need a solid character to avoid a counterpick with. This playability also makes Fox a reliable main and first-game pick. The role alone as a first-class secondary is in my opinion enough for him to break into the high tier category.
Fenrir’s essay on Fox, with contributions and editing by A6M Zero:
I’d like to now include a post by Fenrir, posted in a matchup discussion. I took it, edited it, and contributed to it in what has become a top resource for an introduction to Fox…
”
What we mainly run into here is that Fox lacks a general "here's what you do" strategy that is universal. I'm certainly not saying he does not have that kind of option... I'm just saying that his overall approach to a match is almost completely based on the opponent character.
This is also what separates him from a large part of the higher tier characters... and, in my personal opinion, why he is so hard to play in tournaments... and why he is not higher on the tier list. Basically, with a few changes, MK, Snake, and most of the other top characters play basically the same with just a few changes against every character in the game... I realize this is an overgeneralization, but bear with me..
The thing is, Fox is a character who is able to bait out attacks quite well and capitalize on them.
EL mentioned that Fox's dair approach is risky... yes it is. That's why a dair heavy Fox, in most cases, is mediocre. We mention it... and use it for that matter, as a VERY good combo lead in after a successful bait. That's a bit beside the point.
Fox, unlike higher tier characters, has to greatly vary his overall strategy in every match.
For example... Against MK, Fox goes very Dair happy...beating out both tornado and upB... is not very worried about grabs with DI away... and always illusions back onto the stage from varying heights and lengths. He NEVER edgeguards MK... and typically looks for an usmash kill. He has to watch for MK's shield game with dsmash, though.
Against Falco, Fox has to be very careful about grabs... he keeps moving. NEVER lands in front of shield with a dair... mainly tries for a grab. Edge guards Falco with nair and dair to shine spikes.. .and usually can Firefox back onto the ledge...or illusion of course.. fairly easily. He just kills falco off the stage...and usmash only if the edgeguarding doesn't happen.
And yeah, every character can say something like that...but these matches make fox play COMPLETELY differently... so to give out a "this makes Fox good" tactic is very difficult.
That's why you'll hear me (Fenrir) talk about dash shield so much... that's basically the one tactic that I have found to be mostly universally good. It creates openings by applying pressure...and since Fox has a good out of shield game...it's really sets him up. Another good tactic is pivot-wave-grab, which Fox's slides very far, mostly unpunishable.
Now, continuing Fox's combos on character really isn't high risk...after it's started. There are a variety of mixups that work fine. We're certainly not talking about dair -> utilt x3.
After any utilt... whether after dair, or even a run behind shield utilt...or roll...whatever ...you get at least a jab or grab...if you don't want another utilt... after a couple, you get nair, which also leads to grabs and such... it's really hard to list all of them, because they're very dynamic.. Just, really, it's not hard to put 50% on most characters...even with DI. With proper pressure after a combo and not trying to overextend yourself, another 20% isn't very difficult either.
Fox was in Melee...and still is... very good at being relentless in very tight spaces... once he starts controlling the combo game...if played correctly, it's VERY hard to break out of it.
After about 70%, which, with the comboing mixed with other random grabs and lasers isn't very hard to accomplish that kind of %, dsmash is a legitimate threat out of shield or dair... as Fox usually has a pretty good edgeguarding game (not usually involving shine spike)
And around 90%, dsmash and usmash both will kill the light half of the cast... and can both combo out of dair...so one mistake... or one guessed move, and you die...and I'm completely disregarding bair's killing potential
The main point here, is that Fox is typically a reaction character. And this sounds worse than it is. He is one of the best at punishing moves or predictable gameplay. You ask for safe approaches, I can give just a few of them... so basically, yeah, he lacks a bit... but his whole game is centered around forcing something he can beat and beating it very harshly, whether this entails a roll, spot dodge, SH fair, or shuttle loop... if Fox guesses it, you have a serious problem.
Add to that his blaster, which is almost an auto-refill for his smash attacks and you have a powerful threat.
Against completely flawless and unpredictable play, Fox would have trouble... but that's never been seen...even in all the years of Melee, the game was about guessing your opponent out.
It's understandable the wanting Fox to have viable pokes and approaches, but be sure that you do not only measure him on that. In any form of reasonable play, both players will make mistakes, and Fox will usually have the better end of punishing them. He has a lot of options for creating these openings...and several decent approaches of his own...like SH Nair landing behind a shield... which place him higher than he is now.
...But this limitation of mostly only punishing, may be the thing that will keep Fox out of top tier...You can't be so sure about high tier, though - Fox has the ability to make everything count.”
Conclusion:
I’d like to finish my basic contribution to this by saying that I have strong faith in Fox as a perfectly solid character. While not top tier by any means, he certainly is as a secondary. And while he might not have the most broken moves, or the best stats, he has what he needs and it works well for him. In my opinion Fox is a shoe-in as high tier for a near tier list and will only become more popular as time goes on and people are looking for new answers and underestimated potential.
As much as Fox has changed from melee he’s still a very useable character. He has very attractive upsides to his game, and his downsides while weakening don’t severely debilitate him.
Main Pros:
- Very fast and maneuverable. Fox can control his movement in every aspect. He has a very good vertical clearance with his rising-fair to go with decent jumps. Being a fast-faller and a quick jumper/runner along with his ability to stall in the air gives Fox a powerful strength in being able to change his movement at any time and then capitalize on whatever happens afterwards. The ability to always have multiple options and to never be predictable is what allows Fox to abuse his moveset, which leads us to the next pro.
- Moveset allows for very large amounts of damage and solid kills. While Fox doesn’t have Snake’s utilt or Metaknight’s tornado his interchangeable moves work together in combination to inflict extensive damage in response to your opponents defense. Fox’s drill can combo into uptilts and a smash (at least 50) if you give them enough hitstun, and can combo into a jab -> grab if you land facing them. Firefox after a drill is a first class punishing move on low shields, and punishes an opponent who spot-dodges after your drill. Each of those are good for approximately 30%. A solid back-air, decent gimping moves and flexibility, and the godly upsmash contribute to Fox keeping up with characters who would normally outpace him kill-wise. A very solid and flexible recovery with his rising fair and shine-stall complete a full package.
Main Cons:
- Overall low range and priority. This contributes to most of Fox’s difficulty in any match. Although Fox is able to overcome most of this, it forces him into a reactionary character and is probably the reason that he has a smaller following. It’s definitely the reason he has a steep learning curve to gaining the success against Snakes and Falcos that top level Fox players will speak of.
- Lightweight and fast-falling. Fox’s light weight keeps him out of obvious high- tier. Not much to discuss here. While Fox would normally kill way ahead of his opponents due to his fast damage and upsmash his light weight leaves him vulnerable due dying as soon. The combination of potent lethality and high killability makes Fox matches a knife-fight. His fast fall speed creates his 3 main counters; Pikachu, ZSS, and Sheik.
Fox as a Secondary:
Although I main Fox, I think the biggest argument for Fox as high tier is his capability as a secondary. He has almost equal or even advantageous matches against Snake, DDD, Game and Watch, Falco, ROB, Wario, Wolf, Toon Link, Marth, Pit, Lucario, Diddy, and DK. Although his matchup against Metaknight is in question, it can be agreed that it is at least as good as virtually all characters below top tier because of his kill potential and anti-tornado aerials.
Being this playable against the vast majority of top-tier characters makes, in my opinion, Fox one of the absolute best overall characters to pick up if you want a better match against the upper cast or you need a solid character to avoid a counterpick with. This playability also makes Fox a reliable main and first-game pick. The role alone as a first-class secondary is in my opinion enough for him to break into the high tier category.
Fenrir’s essay on Fox, with contributions and editing by A6M Zero:
I’d like to now include a post by Fenrir, posted in a matchup discussion. I took it, edited it, and contributed to it in what has become a top resource for an introduction to Fox…
”
What we mainly run into here is that Fox lacks a general "here's what you do" strategy that is universal. I'm certainly not saying he does not have that kind of option... I'm just saying that his overall approach to a match is almost completely based on the opponent character.
This is also what separates him from a large part of the higher tier characters... and, in my personal opinion, why he is so hard to play in tournaments... and why he is not higher on the tier list. Basically, with a few changes, MK, Snake, and most of the other top characters play basically the same with just a few changes against every character in the game... I realize this is an overgeneralization, but bear with me..
The thing is, Fox is a character who is able to bait out attacks quite well and capitalize on them.
EL mentioned that Fox's dair approach is risky... yes it is. That's why a dair heavy Fox, in most cases, is mediocre. We mention it... and use it for that matter, as a VERY good combo lead in after a successful bait. That's a bit beside the point.
Fox, unlike higher tier characters, has to greatly vary his overall strategy in every match.
For example... Against MK, Fox goes very Dair happy...beating out both tornado and upB... is not very worried about grabs with DI away... and always illusions back onto the stage from varying heights and lengths. He NEVER edgeguards MK... and typically looks for an usmash kill. He has to watch for MK's shield game with dsmash, though.
Against Falco, Fox has to be very careful about grabs... he keeps moving. NEVER lands in front of shield with a dair... mainly tries for a grab. Edge guards Falco with nair and dair to shine spikes.. .and usually can Firefox back onto the ledge...or illusion of course.. fairly easily. He just kills falco off the stage...and usmash only if the edgeguarding doesn't happen.
And yeah, every character can say something like that...but these matches make fox play COMPLETELY differently... so to give out a "this makes Fox good" tactic is very difficult.
That's why you'll hear me (Fenrir) talk about dash shield so much... that's basically the one tactic that I have found to be mostly universally good. It creates openings by applying pressure...and since Fox has a good out of shield game...it's really sets him up. Another good tactic is pivot-wave-grab, which Fox's slides very far, mostly unpunishable.
Now, continuing Fox's combos on character really isn't high risk...after it's started. There are a variety of mixups that work fine. We're certainly not talking about dair -> utilt x3.
After any utilt... whether after dair, or even a run behind shield utilt...or roll...whatever ...you get at least a jab or grab...if you don't want another utilt... after a couple, you get nair, which also leads to grabs and such... it's really hard to list all of them, because they're very dynamic.. Just, really, it's not hard to put 50% on most characters...even with DI. With proper pressure after a combo and not trying to overextend yourself, another 20% isn't very difficult either.
Fox was in Melee...and still is... very good at being relentless in very tight spaces... once he starts controlling the combo game...if played correctly, it's VERY hard to break out of it.
After about 70%, which, with the comboing mixed with other random grabs and lasers isn't very hard to accomplish that kind of %, dsmash is a legitimate threat out of shield or dair... as Fox usually has a pretty good edgeguarding game (not usually involving shine spike)
And around 90%, dsmash and usmash both will kill the light half of the cast... and can both combo out of dair...so one mistake... or one guessed move, and you die...and I'm completely disregarding bair's killing potential
The main point here, is that Fox is typically a reaction character. And this sounds worse than it is. He is one of the best at punishing moves or predictable gameplay. You ask for safe approaches, I can give just a few of them... so basically, yeah, he lacks a bit... but his whole game is centered around forcing something he can beat and beating it very harshly, whether this entails a roll, spot dodge, SH fair, or shuttle loop... if Fox guesses it, you have a serious problem.
Add to that his blaster, which is almost an auto-refill for his smash attacks and you have a powerful threat.
Against completely flawless and unpredictable play, Fox would have trouble... but that's never been seen...even in all the years of Melee, the game was about guessing your opponent out.
It's understandable the wanting Fox to have viable pokes and approaches, but be sure that you do not only measure him on that. In any form of reasonable play, both players will make mistakes, and Fox will usually have the better end of punishing them. He has a lot of options for creating these openings...and several decent approaches of his own...like SH Nair landing behind a shield... which place him higher than he is now.
...But this limitation of mostly only punishing, may be the thing that will keep Fox out of top tier...You can't be so sure about high tier, though - Fox has the ability to make everything count.”
Conclusion:
I’d like to finish my basic contribution to this by saying that I have strong faith in Fox as a perfectly solid character. While not top tier by any means, he certainly is as a secondary. And while he might not have the most broken moves, or the best stats, he has what he needs and it works well for him. In my opinion Fox is a shoe-in as high tier for a near tier list and will only become more popular as time goes on and people are looking for new answers and underestimated potential.
Fox is, by and large, a mid tier character. I expect that as his metagame improves, he may rise slightly in the tier list, but nothing enough to make him high or top tier material. He's definitely not the same beast as Melee. I won't go into specifics here, because no one really wants to know the mechanics of each of his moves.
He has a few main things going for him - combos and kill potential. Combos are no longer the simple "Dair to whatever else" stuff that dominated the early Fox metagame, but they haven't strayed too far from it either. Kill potential is great in Usmash as well as some other moves, and Fox will very quickly put a character into high percents.
On the other hand, Fox suffers from being lightweight, having a fast falling speed, being easy to kill, having a recovery that's nothing special, and generally having worse defensive options than to match his offensive power. This generally leaves him open to stupid ridiculous stuff (ZSS Dsmash chain, Sheik tilt lock, Pikachu chain grab), and those bad matchups, along with his generally inability to deal with damage successfully, limit him greatly.
That being said, he does relatively well against many high tier matchups, and is a blast to play. He's a character with much potential - are Fox's weaknesses something that can be overcome with time? Some of them are, and some of them are just hardwired facts in the game. Expect to see his strengths improve and his weaknesses diminish as a whole, though.
He has a few main things going for him - combos and kill potential. Combos are no longer the simple "Dair to whatever else" stuff that dominated the early Fox metagame, but they haven't strayed too far from it either. Kill potential is great in Usmash as well as some other moves, and Fox will very quickly put a character into high percents.
On the other hand, Fox suffers from being lightweight, having a fast falling speed, being easy to kill, having a recovery that's nothing special, and generally having worse defensive options than to match his offensive power. This generally leaves him open to stupid ridiculous stuff (ZSS Dsmash chain, Sheik tilt lock, Pikachu chain grab), and those bad matchups, along with his generally inability to deal with damage successfully, limit him greatly.
That being said, he does relatively well against many high tier matchups, and is a blast to play. He's a character with much potential - are Fox's weaknesses something that can be overcome with time? Some of them are, and some of them are just hardwired facts in the game. Expect to see his strengths improve and his weaknesses diminish as a whole, though.
M@v
Subarashii!
Fox is is so much fun to play, and he is fully capable of being a competitor in tourneys. Fox’s moveset is much more than the dair-up air people think. While it IS true he doesn’t have the best approaches, he has several options, such as:
-Dair
-nair
-Fair
-dance-dash dash attack
-illusion (rare cases)
Fox has one of the best comboing abilities in the game. Dair and nair lead into several follow ups, most notably uptilt. Dsmash and , at high enough percents, upsmash are other good follow-ups. Mixing in grabs after approaches can really throw off opponents. If an opponent starts to shield whenever fox goes airborne, expecting a dair or nair, just fast fall and grab. Mixing just these two tactics alone can really throw enemies off. Down throw is fox’s best throw. It does the most damage, and can lead into fair. Nothing too special about fox’s throw game. Its ok at best.
Now for Fair. Fair got a HUGE buff from melee, and I absolutely LOVE this move. Some uses and facts about it:
-It hits with all 5 kicks almost all the time. It can be smash did though
-does about 23% if all 5 hits connect
-Fair can used to give a large boost to fox’s jump height, making recovery a lot easier.
- Can KO. The last hit of fair sends them straight up. Ive killed people around 100% when they were near the top with it.
Nair autocancels, and still has great priority. It has two hit boxes; a strong one when it first comes out, and a weak one that stays for the duration of the move.
Blaster is fox’s projectile. The range got nerfed, but everything else is the same. You can shl, shdl, and even shtl(short hop triple laser) with it. Its main job is force the other guy to come to you.
Last move I want to mention is the shine. Although its not the gimping/wave shining monster anymore, it almost just as good….in much different ways. Shine is by FAR fox’s best defensive option. Shine does so many things for fox:
-Shine stall- Fox can almost hover in place in the air with shine. This can throw off edge guarders timing. It can also bait people to react early to defend against an aerial from fox. It’s the most important use for the shine
-Shine spiking. No, it can’t do it like melee, but shine can still be used to gimp. Usually it takes two shines against a good recovering character, and one against a crappy one.
-Reflects projectiles. Wait, wut? I never knew that……
-Get the $$$$ off me. Shine comes out in three frames. It is fox’s best move to get someone off of him.
-Spotdodge->shine. another great defensive tactic.
Recovery: Foxs recovery is no doubt the best of the spacies. He can curve his firefox, which means he doesn’t have to worry about getting stuck under places like FD. Illusion is fast, and can be cancelled to shorten its distance. Rising Fair give him a large jump boost. Lastly, Combining shine stalling and fast falling makes him harder to predict. Fox should be coming back most of the time.
Now for KOs. Upsmash,Upsmash, Upsmash. It rocked in melee, and still does in brawl. Its arguably the best upsmash in the game. Comes out fast, great priority, HUGE knockback, and best of all, can be used out of shield. As soon as an opponent touches your shield they eat an upsmash. Besides Upsmash, fox has several mediocre killers, they are dsmash, bair, and upair. Upair is a lot worse than its melee form. While its still strong, upthrow is terrible now, and doesn’t lead into up air at all.
Fox’s matchups are VERY similar to wolfs, with some minor differences. They both share the same hard counters: Pikachu and Sheik. Pika got a 0-80%cg. Sheik can 30-death with ftilt.
Fox has good top/high tier matchups. He goes even with Snake, DDD, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Pit, and Wolf. He has a 55:45 advantage on R.O.B. Hes 4:6 vs Lucario, Wario, and falco. G&W, Marth Kirby, and MK are all bad for him, they are anywhere from 65:35 to 70:30 against him. Note though. If you shield mks tornado, you get a free upsmash on him.
Fox’s tourney results disappoint me. I think the reason why he is so low is because almost no one plays him. They all abandoned him in the first couple months of brawl, and didn’t give him a chance. If more people played him, his results should be about the same as wolf’s, due to the similar matchups. I have heard some people claim fox is unviable due to the 1 or 2 near unwinnable matchups he has. Wolf is doing just fine, and he has the same exact unwinnable matchups. Just make sure you have a CP to cover these few matchups. Zelda/sheik, Lucario, and marth all make great secondaries in my opinion. But secondaries are personal preference, so you decide.
I think fox should be right next to wolf on the tier list rankings. Whether that’s in high tier or mid tier, that’s hard to say. He should be anywhere from the top of mid tier to the lower end of high tier, where pit, Kirby, and wolf currently are. Fox and wolf seem to be good in the area another isn’t. Foxs air game is better than wolfs air game(with the exception of wolf’s godly bair). Wolfs ground game is better than foxs ground game(besides Fox’s uptilt and Upsmash
). Wolf can edge guard better than fox. Fox can recover better. Both have similar matchups and priority. Fox should be right under Wolf, mainly because wolf is placing more than fox is.
Fox is a sleeper. He has so much potential. People have to realize he is much better than most give him credit for. Now don’t take this the wrong way: fox is no metaknight. Not by a long shot. But he does do better than much of the cast. Fox can easily do as well as wolf, toon link, and others in top of mid tier/lower end of high tier. With his good top/high tier matchups, the ability is there. More Fox players have to start appearing and going to tournaments, and use it.
I only have one issue with the SBR discussion...Falco DOES NOT **** Fox. We have been talking about it a lot in the Falco boards, and it looks like the matchup is going to be 55:45 Falco. Besides the CG and blasters, Falco doesnt have much on Fox. But a chaingrab is a powerful thing, hence the 55:45.
Oh, almost forgot, DO A BARREL ROLL!
-Dair
-nair
-Fair
-dance-dash dash attack
-illusion (rare cases)
Fox has one of the best comboing abilities in the game. Dair and nair lead into several follow ups, most notably uptilt. Dsmash and , at high enough percents, upsmash are other good follow-ups. Mixing in grabs after approaches can really throw off opponents. If an opponent starts to shield whenever fox goes airborne, expecting a dair or nair, just fast fall and grab. Mixing just these two tactics alone can really throw enemies off. Down throw is fox’s best throw. It does the most damage, and can lead into fair. Nothing too special about fox’s throw game. Its ok at best.
Now for Fair. Fair got a HUGE buff from melee, and I absolutely LOVE this move. Some uses and facts about it:
-It hits with all 5 kicks almost all the time. It can be smash did though
-does about 23% if all 5 hits connect
-Fair can used to give a large boost to fox’s jump height, making recovery a lot easier.
- Can KO. The last hit of fair sends them straight up. Ive killed people around 100% when they were near the top with it.
Nair autocancels, and still has great priority. It has two hit boxes; a strong one when it first comes out, and a weak one that stays for the duration of the move.
Blaster is fox’s projectile. The range got nerfed, but everything else is the same. You can shl, shdl, and even shtl(short hop triple laser) with it. Its main job is force the other guy to come to you.
Last move I want to mention is the shine. Although its not the gimping/wave shining monster anymore, it almost just as good….in much different ways. Shine is by FAR fox’s best defensive option. Shine does so many things for fox:
-Shine stall- Fox can almost hover in place in the air with shine. This can throw off edge guarders timing. It can also bait people to react early to defend against an aerial from fox. It’s the most important use for the shine
-Shine spiking. No, it can’t do it like melee, but shine can still be used to gimp. Usually it takes two shines against a good recovering character, and one against a crappy one.
-Reflects projectiles. Wait, wut? I never knew that……
-Get the $$$$ off me. Shine comes out in three frames. It is fox’s best move to get someone off of him.
-Spotdodge->shine. another great defensive tactic.
Recovery: Foxs recovery is no doubt the best of the spacies. He can curve his firefox, which means he doesn’t have to worry about getting stuck under places like FD. Illusion is fast, and can be cancelled to shorten its distance. Rising Fair give him a large jump boost. Lastly, Combining shine stalling and fast falling makes him harder to predict. Fox should be coming back most of the time.
Now for KOs. Upsmash,Upsmash, Upsmash. It rocked in melee, and still does in brawl. Its arguably the best upsmash in the game. Comes out fast, great priority, HUGE knockback, and best of all, can be used out of shield. As soon as an opponent touches your shield they eat an upsmash. Besides Upsmash, fox has several mediocre killers, they are dsmash, bair, and upair. Upair is a lot worse than its melee form. While its still strong, upthrow is terrible now, and doesn’t lead into up air at all.
Fox’s matchups are VERY similar to wolfs, with some minor differences. They both share the same hard counters: Pikachu and Sheik. Pika got a 0-80%cg. Sheik can 30-death with ftilt.
Fox has good top/high tier matchups. He goes even with Snake, DDD, Diddy, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Pit, and Wolf. He has a 55:45 advantage on R.O.B. Hes 4:6 vs Lucario, Wario, and falco. G&W, Marth Kirby, and MK are all bad for him, they are anywhere from 65:35 to 70:30 against him. Note though. If you shield mks tornado, you get a free upsmash on him.
Fox’s tourney results disappoint me. I think the reason why he is so low is because almost no one plays him. They all abandoned him in the first couple months of brawl, and didn’t give him a chance. If more people played him, his results should be about the same as wolf’s, due to the similar matchups. I have heard some people claim fox is unviable due to the 1 or 2 near unwinnable matchups he has. Wolf is doing just fine, and he has the same exact unwinnable matchups. Just make sure you have a CP to cover these few matchups. Zelda/sheik, Lucario, and marth all make great secondaries in my opinion. But secondaries are personal preference, so you decide.
I think fox should be right next to wolf on the tier list rankings. Whether that’s in high tier or mid tier, that’s hard to say. He should be anywhere from the top of mid tier to the lower end of high tier, where pit, Kirby, and wolf currently are. Fox and wolf seem to be good in the area another isn’t. Foxs air game is better than wolfs air game(with the exception of wolf’s godly bair). Wolfs ground game is better than foxs ground game(besides Fox’s uptilt and Upsmash
). Wolf can edge guard better than fox. Fox can recover better. Both have similar matchups and priority. Fox should be right under Wolf, mainly because wolf is placing more than fox is.Fox is a sleeper. He has so much potential. People have to realize he is much better than most give him credit for. Now don’t take this the wrong way: fox is no metaknight. Not by a long shot. But he does do better than much of the cast. Fox can easily do as well as wolf, toon link, and others in top of mid tier/lower end of high tier. With his good top/high tier matchups, the ability is there. More Fox players have to start appearing and going to tournaments, and use it.
I only have one issue with the SBR discussion...Falco DOES NOT **** Fox. We have been talking about it a lot in the Falco boards, and it looks like the matchup is going to be 55:45 Falco. Besides the CG and blasters, Falco doesnt have much on Fox. But a chaingrab is a powerful thing, hence the 55:45.
Oh, almost forgot, DO A BARREL ROLL!
Conviction
Human Nature
The thing I like about Fox's bad approaches are people expect them so much... then they seem a hell of a lot easier to punish. Empty sh kills shieldgrabbers.
Idk if this was metioned but Fox is a character that has to be a little bit of everything, there can't be too much of something or he becomes predictale. This was something Lucien was good at before he quit brawl.
His defensive options are good spray them with some laser let them approach and can either bait a grab or illision away. Also when you have a hard time approaching you could always run shield then grab.
Shine has it's uses it can be used to turn around quickly in the air. You can shine spike them (i don't know if this was metioned either) but Fox has a more effective way off using the shine as a gimp drillshine off the stage work wonder of high recoverers like marth.
I see Fox as the character to rise and fall alot. Unless he can get a solid metagame that is how he is gonna be. Fox has a steep learning curve to play competetively.
Idk if this was metioned but Fox is a character that has to be a little bit of everything, there can't be too much of something or he becomes predictale. This was something Lucien was good at before he quit brawl.
His defensive options are good spray them with some laser let them approach and can either bait a grab or illision away. Also when you have a hard time approaching you could always run shield then grab.
Shine has it's uses it can be used to turn around quickly in the air. You can shine spike them (i don't know if this was metioned either) but Fox has a more effective way off using the shine as a gimp drillshine off the stage work wonder of high recoverers like marth.
I see Fox as the character to rise and fall alot. Unless he can get a solid metagame that is how he is gonna be. Fox has a steep learning curve to play competetively.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
Fox kinda boils down to "Glass Cannon" Imo. Fun as hell to play.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
lol i was wondering where this was...
not really much to say(scince everyone else has said everything important)but i still think fox is a great character,granted not the best, but...
hes kinda like yoshi, lots of potental, does good against high/top tier, and is really overlooked.
not really much to say(scince everyone else has said everything important)but i still think fox is a great character,granted not the best, but...
hes kinda like yoshi, lots of potental, does good against high/top tier, and is really overlooked.
- Status