Wasted Smash Bros. Moveset Potential

[Mamboo07]

would have worked a lot better if it were based on the concept art and promotional materials for Minecraft content.

Basically him/Alex looking like from the trailers?

 

[Oracle Link]

Wario's Wario Land moveset amounts to a shoulder tackle and that's it, and that's in Smash already (after it disappeared for a game). There is NOTHING that Wario Land can fill up that the "Ware" Wario already has.

: Down air

: Down smash

:Up B
And yes the shoulder tackle should be the neutral b move!
And NOONe of the replaced attacks reffrence anything from wario Ware!

 

[Opossum]

View attachment 380629: Down air
View attachment 380630: Down smash
View attachment 380631:Up B
And yes the shoulder tackle should be the neutral b move!
And NOONe of the replaced attacks reffrence anything from wario Ware!

Why would the shoulder tackle be made into a special move when it already functions perfectly well as a dash attack?

 

[Perkilator]

Why would the shoulder tackle be made into a special move when it already functions perfectly well as a dash attack?

Maybe if Wario was in Melee it would make sense as a side B.

 

[FazDude]

Not really "potential" since they've already happened, but I miss Bowser's down smash, neutral air, and back air from Melee and Brawl. While none of them really reference anything, they feel a lot less "generic" and more like Bowser showing off the strength of his shell, which would go a long way in making him feel less "bestial".

 

[BonafideFella]

Not really "potential" since they've already happened, but I miss Bowser's down smash, neutral air, and back air from Melee and Brawl. While none of them really reference anything, they feel a lot less "generic" and more like Bowser showing off the strength of his shell, which would go a long way in making him feel less "bestial".

i’d continue on w/ this philosophy and say i rlly miss his melee “train-brake” run — i more than understand why they changed it but it’s wholly unique to that era of bowser’s characterization

 

[Quillion]

Not really "potential" since they've already happened, but I miss Bowser's down smash, neutral air, and back air from Melee and Brawl. While none of them really reference anything, they feel a lot less "generic" and more like Bowser showing off the strength of his shell, which would go a long way in making him feel less "bestial".

I can understand the D-Smash and N-air being a bit redundant with Up-B to be fair, but I just miss Melee/Brawl Bowser animations in general.

I can take or leave the "vibrate along ground" run, but I LOVE bestial Bowser as he feels like he's showing off his full strength instead of being a goofy cartoon villain.

All that said, I'm a bit partial to him having his Bowser's Inside Story punch for his F-Smash after playing the fangame CMC+ V8.

 

[Kirbeh]

Bowser's honestly a really weird case for me personally. He went from being discount Godzilla to being pseudo-wrestler guy. I can understand what they were going for with both choices, but neither have ever felt like a truly realized Bowser imo.

Melee/Brawl Bowser was giving you the feeling of being a big monster, which granted he is, but he's not really a simple beast.

4/Ultimate Bowser leaned into more traditional fighting game trappings, being a big-bodied bruiser/pseudo-grappler hybrid.

There are aspects I enjoy from both versions, but I'd honestly prefer another rework tbh. Keep the bruiser angle, but make him more animated like Incineroar maybe? And give him his actual current voice. Maybe make it like Street Fighter or Marvel vs Capcom 3 where you can freely toggle between English and Japanese voices for each individual character. Except for Bowser (and the DK cast) it'd be a toggle between Classic (actual source material) and Smash Bros. (beast grunts.)

Ironically, I actually think NASB2 Reptar has a few things I would've liked for Bowser. For one, an actual fireball. Then you have his Up and Down Smash attacks that (with some tweaking) could work for Bowser too.

Reptar's Up Smash is basically just Bowser's Up taunt but while breathing fire, and an angry stomp for a down smash or down tilt would be fitting for Bowser imo.

I can understand the D-Smash and N-air being a bit redundant with Up-B to be fair, but I just miss Melee/Brawl Bowser animations in general.

I can take or leave the "vibrate along ground" run, but I LOVE bestial Bowser as he feels like he's showing off his full strength instead of being a goofy cartoon villain.

All that said, I'm a bit partial to him having his Bowser's Inside Story punch for his F-Smash after playing the fangame CMC+ V8.

But he is a big goofy cartoon villain? Granted I do think he should have animations that emphasize his brute strength, but I don't think that necessitates turning him more bestial.

Ditto on the M&L punch though, I think that one is actually pretty agreed upon for a lot of Bowser fans. I'd miss the dropkick, but I think you could rework that into a running dropkick as a dash attack replacement if it was kept.

i’d continue on w/ this philosophy and say i rlly miss his melee “train-brake” run — i more than understand why they changed it but it’s wholly unique to that era of bowser’s characterization

While unique, I really don't think it fit him tbh. That said, I am in favor of giving it or something similar to Dry Bowser if they ever decided to make him an echo/Doc style alternate version. They could treat it as leaning into the undead aspect by having him essentially glide along the ground like a ghost. It'd still pretty much look the same but fits better visually/theming wise. Current Bowser's run would in turn look weird on Dry Bowser imo.

Overall, the move that absolutely needs to go is neutral air. That's imo the most unfitting move he's had between both versions.

 

[Oracle Link]

Why would the shoulder tackle be made into a special move when it already functions perfectly well as a dash attack?

Because that way you can jump whilst using the tackle!

 

[Quillion]

But he is a big goofy cartoon villain? Granted I do think he should have animations that emphasize his brute strength, but I don't think that necessitates turning him more bestial.

Ditto on the M&L punch though, I think that one is actually pretty agreed upon for a lot of Bowser fans. I'd miss the dropkick, but I think you could rework that into a running dropkick as a dash attack replacement if it was kept.

Yes, he is a goofy cartoon villain in canon. But the Melee/Brawl take on Bowser feels like he's more adapted to the Smash series' atmosphere instead of just doing what he's usually doing. I love seeing Bowser drop everything and just let out his wild side.

Again, too many people think "canon references" are the end-all be-all of fun moveset design, and Mega Man proves that it isn't. It's far more fun to pick and choose the best aspects of canon while making changes to adapt to Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

Because that way you can jump whilst using the tackle!

I'd like that actually, but I'd settle for Dash Attack being jump cancelable or being able to jump during it as a unique property to Wario's DA.

 

[Louie G.]

I like Wario's shoulder tackle as a dash attack, although I'd be down to reinstate it as his F-Smash again with updated properties.

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but we have plenty of unorthodox smash attacks by now so it's not too crazy - letting Wario travel a respectable distance after unleashing his smash attack, letting the move maintain that forward momentum but letting you commit to it harder and having it pack more of a finishing punch. Maybe you can even jump out of it as previously discussed - speaking of which, I think dash attacks having unique functions like say... DK being able to roll off platforms would be cool too.

Again, too many people think "canon references" are the end-all be-all of fun moveset design, and Mega Man proves that it isn't. It's far more fun to pick and choose the best aspects of canon while making changes to adapt to Smash.

I think there's a happy medium to this. Smash is a great avenue to give characters unique and fun new angles, and I do think sometimes people take it too far in making everything a reference. Bowser isn't an example of this, Smash still takes plenty of liberties but simply brought him up to speed with the current incarnation of the character. Bestial hunchback Bowser is a relic of Mario 64 era that started to feel outdated by Brawl. It's one thing saying like, the drop kick should be replaced with this or that because it's not a reference (which would be stupid) vs saying Bowser should reject the design he's had for the last two decades. No other character with that consistent of a design in their home series is playing by those rules.

Making Bowser a grappler and giving him wrestling moves = adapting to Smash in a fun way.
Ignoring Bowser's character evolution over the 2000s = rejecting who the character is.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yes, he is a goofy cartoon villain in canon. But the Melee/Brawl take on Bowser feels like he's more adapted to the Smash series' atmosphere instead of just doing what he's usually doing. I love seeing Bowser drop everything and just let out his wild side.

Again, too many people think "canon references" are the end-all be-all of fun moveset design, and Mega Man proves that it isn't. It's far more fun to pick and choose the best aspects of canon while making changes to adapt to Smash.

Going to have to disagree on this one as well.

I don't think Melee/Brawl Bowser was bad for the time, and there are still some aspects of it that I prefer to 4/Ultimate Bowser, but I don't think making him more bruiser less beast is a bad call. A more vicious/more bestial fighter would be cool to have, I agree there, but I think Bowser can be more "canon" with just a few tweaks that don't compromise his gameplay. One example being the aforementioned big wind-up punch from Bowser's Inside Story. That and a few aesthetic changes like some new taunts, the voice etc.

As an example, I'd replace his weird off balance down taunt with his signature laugh.

Heck, there are some moves I'd even change/revert to being more bestial, I'd just prefer a bit more of his actual game self to shine through while keeping the actual moveset to be balanced between the beast-like/monster/bruiser archetypes.

 

[Quillion]

I like Wario's shoulder tackle as a dash attack, although I'd be down to reinstate it as his F-Smash again with updated properties.

Maybe it's a bit of a stretch, but we have plenty of unorthodox smash attacks by now so it's not too crazy - letting Wario travel a respectable distance after unleashing his smash attack, letting the move maintain that forward momentum but letting you commit to it harder and having it pack more of a finishing punch.

The Super Smash Bros. Crusade fangame has exactly that for Wario in its current version, you might want to check that out.

Going to have to disagree on this one as well.

I don't think Melee/Brawl Bowser was bad for the time, and there are still some aspects of it that I prefer to 4/Ultimate Bowser, but I don't think making him more bruiser less beast is a bad call. A more vicious/more bestial fighter would be cool to have, I agree there, but I think Bowser can be more "canon" with just a few tweaks that don't compromise his gameplay. One example being the aforementioned big wind-up punch from Bowser's Inside Story. That and a few aesthetic changes like some new taunts, the voice etc.

As an example, I'd replace his weird off balance down taunt with his signature laugh.

Heck, there are some moves I'd even change/revert to being more bestial, I'd just prefer a bit more of his actual game self to shine through while keeping the actual moveset to be balanced between the beast-like/monster/bruiser archetypes.

I can admit that the bestial Bowser fit more in the "darker" style Melee and Brawl were going for as opposed to the lighter style of Smash 4-on. Still think his bestial portrayal is just cool no matter what though.

Still, I'm torn between the headbutt from Melee and the M&L:BiS punch as an F-Smash. The dropkick definitely needs to go either way.
----
Back to the main topic, I feel like Ness could be a fun character if he were solely reliant on his own attacks from his game rather than having to composite abilites from Paula and Poo. Side-B could easily be Paralysis (still an immobilization move, hopefully not as obnoxious) while Down-B could be Shield Beta. Up-B could possibly even be Teleport.

Also, I have this idea that either Mario's U-Smash or F-Smash should be a hammer swing, though I love the short-range Kamehameha motion for the latter currently.

 

[Kirbeh]

The Super Smash Bros. Crusade fangame has exactly that for Wario in its current version, you might want to check that out.



I can admit that the bestial Bowser fit more in the "darker" style Melee and Brawl were going for as opposed to the lighter style of Smash 4-on. Still think his bestial portrayal is just cool no matter what though.

Still, I'm torn between the headbutt from Melee and the M&L:BiS punch as an F-Smash. The dropkick definitely needs to go either way.
----
Back to the main topic, I feel like Ness could be a fun character if he were solely reliant on his own attacks from his game rather than having to composite abilites from Paula and Poo. Side-B could easily be Paralysis (still an immobilization move, hopefully not as obnoxious) while Down-B could be Shield Beta. Up-B could possibly even be Teleport.

Also, I have this idea that either Mario's U-Smash or F-Smash should be a hammer swing, though I love the short-range Kamehameha motion for the latter currently.

I really don't think the art direction dictates one or the other as more fitting. It should be wholly based on the Smash portrayal in comparison to their home series.

Aside from the literal semi gritty art direction with a less vibrant palette in Brawl, I've personally never seen either Melee or Brawl as "darker", if anything Brawl introduced more goofy stuff than Melee and nowadays we have Ridley and Sephiroth. Muting the color palette isn't enough to change the game's "tone" imo. (I will acknowledge the use of color and tone to avoid the joke before it happens.)

Back to Bowser, I'd personally go for the punch and still support adding Dry Bowser to take up some of the old moves while being able to lean into the idea more as an undead monster.

As for Mario, I honestly like his Smash attacks as they are already. Though I do prefer what he's got, I wouldn't necessarily be upset to see those changes. I'd appreciate it more if they try to replicate the M&L hammer swings though.

Similar to adding Dry Bowser, I'd also favor Paper Mario as the one to take up the mantle of a hammer wielding Mario character.

Ness is also quite tricky. I guess I feel the same way you do about Ganondorf but to a lesser degree.

I'm not at all opposed to a rework of Ness (and Lucas) but on only on the condition of Paula, Poo, or Kumatora being added to retain PK Fire, PK Thunder, etc.

PK Fire spam aside, I think Fire, Freeze, Thunder and PSI Magnet are interesting and fun to use moves. I wouldn't want to lose them if outright if we got a reworked Ness/Lucas and no Mother newcomer.

If we are actually changing Ness however I do think Paralysis and Teleport are good calls. Giving him a reflector to make up for the loss of projectile absorption is also a good choice.

I'm curious to what your thoughts are on the possibility of Lifeup. Giving characters outright healing moves is usually frowned upon but I was thinking it might be a fun way of bringing in the rolling health from Mother. It could be a move that requires a charge up time like Wii Fit's Deep Breathing (but without the timing gimmick.)

Once cast, it would essentially function like a Maxim Tomato or Heart Container, healing a set percent over time rather than an instantaneous heal. Any damage you take would be subtracted from the healing as well.

 

[Quillion]

I'm curious to what your thoughts are on the possibility of Lifeup. Giving characters outright healing moves is usually frowned upon but I was thinking it might be a fun way of bringing in the rolling health from Mother. It could be a move that requires a charge up time like Wii Fit's Deep Breathing (but without the timing gimmick.)

If we're going to have Lifeup, it'll have to accompany a "super meter" mechanic so that the "down super" is Lifeup, allowing you to exchange meter for health.

 

[RouffWestie]

Oh wow posted in the wrong thread
Don't ask me how that happened.

 

[Perkilator]

Out of genuine curiosity for where the main-series-only idea comes from, here's a scenario:

Let's pretend the next Mario Kart releases, has Waluigi as the only other playable character that isn't already a fighter in Smash, and ends up greatly outselling Mario Kart 8 Deluxe for whatever reason.
And releasing on the same day is the next main series Mario game: New Super Mario Bros. 6. NSMB6 has Bubbles from Superstar Saga as a playable character, but utterly tanks on release for whatever reason, becoming the least selling Mario title of all time.

From the developer's standpoint, what do they stand to gain from adding Bubbles over Waluigi?

I think this is the wrong thread? Although speaking of Superstar Saga, it does make me wish Luigi got his electric powers from that game starting in Brawl.

 

[Perkilator]

I just thought of yet another bit of missed potential regarding Ganondorf; during the Phantom Ganon boss fight in Ocarina of Time, Phantom Ganon enters the paintings through a portal, and of course fights with a trident.

If Ganondorf in Smash wasn’t a clone, I could easily see his down special being one where a portal of darkness moves along the ground when B is held, and letting go opens the portal and Phantom Ganon’s trident pops out of the ground.

 

[fogbadge]

I just thought of yet another bit of missed potential regarding Ganondorf; during the Phantom Ganon boss fight in Ocarina of Time, Phantom Ganon enters the paintings through a portal, and of course fights with a trident.

If Ganondorf in Smash wasn’t a clone, I could easily see his down special being one where a portal of darkness moves along the ground when B is held, and letting go opens the portal and Phantom Ganon’s trident pops out of the ground.

i thought you were gonna say his on screen entrance should have been hum jumping out a painting

 

[Oracle Link]

Give Bowser his Fire ball instead of him spewing Fire!
(MAke it not travel that far!)
I guess you could give him a slow moving Hammer Throw!
I know many people dont want projectile heavies its just that ganondorf and bowser use tons of them!
Im gonna make the controversial claim and say that ALL of Toon links Specials are perfect
but he could get his combos from WW as a Jab
The Sword beam ans jump attack same as adult link!
His Down Smash could be the skull hammer!
And triforce slash could be turned more canon!

 

[Perkilator]

With Super Mario Bros. Wonder having released, I think the next Smash game would be as good a time as any to make Daisy more unique with a moveset utilizing Wonder’s power-ups.

 

[FazDude]

The golden flowers could make for a cool Parasol substitute, but I dunno how much further I'd go with that - Probably wouldn't use the Elephant/Bubble/Drill forms.

 

[UserKev]

One of the biggest (I hope not) missed potential moves for Daisy I hope is eventually referenced. The smack from the infamous moment would amazingly benefit Daisy, specifically as a forward Smash attack.

 

[Mamboo07]

View attachment 386207
One of the biggest (I hope not) missed potential moves for Daisy I hope is eventually referenced. The smack from the infamous moment would amazingly benefit Daisy, specifically as a forward Smash attack.

Would be fun to have her Forward Smash be the Bowser Slap.

 

[Gorgonzales]

ignore this

 

[Quillion]

I feel like the Champion abilities could have worked as extra GFX for Link's existing moves: Revali's Gale for aerial Up B, Urbosa's Fury for charged grounded Up B, Daruk's Protection for Shield, and Mipha's Grace has her appear when Link respawns sometimes.

Good way of implementing them without disturbing his established moveset.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I feel like the Champion abilities could have worked as extra GFX for Link's existing moves: Revali's Gale for aerial Up B, Urbosa's Fury for charged grounded Up B, Daruk's Protection for Shield, and Mipha's Grace has her appear when Link respawns sometimes.

Good way of implementing them without disturbing his established moveset.

Genius. It could've buffed Link's Up B too.

 

[Curious Villager]

Why doesn’t Peach, a character with emphasis on air mobility, have a Down B that works in the air?

If they wanted to keep with the whole item pluck theme for her down special, they could have had Peach pick up opponents from below her whenever she is in mid air instead, much like you can do in SMB2 whenever you are above enemy's instead of on the ground.

Don't know if she should be able to carry them around like Donkey Kong can, but probably directly throwing them away afterwards could work.

Hell maybe even let Olimar do that too for the heck of it whenever he's in mid air for his neutral B by plucking opponents and throwing them like their Pikmin...

 

[Gorgonzales]

Why doesn’t Peach, a character with emphasis on air mobility, have a Down B that works in the air?

I actually like this part of her design since it forces her to take a break from being airborne so much to risk plucking a veggie. She'd be even more busted if she could pluck a stitchface offstage.

 

[FazDude]

I actually like this part of her design since it forces her to take a break from being airborne so much to risk plucking a veggie. She'd be even more busted if she could pluck a stitchface offstage.

I’m not saying it should be Vegetable - I’d make it Poundbrella.

 

[Oracle Link]

Toon and young link not because of their specials (after all boomerang, bombs, bow and hookshot are such universal link weapons)
But instead that both are lacking in the jump attack and the sword beam? I mean Toon uses Both (although the sword beam only in 2d games)
And Young was the first to use the jump attack!

Other than that not really wasted potential but why does toomn link have the L1 Shield but full mastersword? He should have the mirror shield instead that is more canon!

 

[Quillion]

Toon and young link not because of their specials (after all boomerang, bombs, bow and hookshot are such universal link weapons)

Thank you for acknowledging this.

But instead that both are lacking in the jump attack and the sword beam? I mean Toon uses Both (although the sword beam only in 2d games)
And Young was the first to use the jump attack!

Hey, both individually need some way to differentiate themselves from the other Links.

Other than that not really wasted potential but why does toomn link have the L1 Shield but full mastersword? He should have the mirror shield instead that is more canon!

The Hylian Shield is just too popular. Even before TP standardized its design, they were still essentially recreating it before then, and the WW Hero's Shield was just that.

 

[Curious Villager]

Toon and young link not because of their specials (after all boomerang, bombs, bow and hookshot are such universal link weapons)
But instead that both are lacking in the jump attack and the sword beam? I mean Toon uses Both (although the sword beam only in 2d games)
And Young was the first to use the jump attack!

Other than that not really wasted potential but why does toomn link have the L1 Shield but full mastersword? He should have the mirror shield instead that is more canon!

They could have added a nice little extra where the mirror shield would reflect projectiles too like it did in the Minish Cap, could maybe do that for Palutena's Mirror Shield too.



Also I didn't realize until many years later that Toon Link's down air is basically the Air Thrust attack from the Minish Cap instead of the Zelda II down air like the other two Link's have, he does the same animation for it too, quite a neat little detail that is easy to miss.

 

[Oracle Link]

They could have added a nice little extra where the mirror shield would reflect projectiles too like it did in the Minish Cap, could maybe do that for Palutena's Mirror Shield too.



Also I didn't realize until many years later that Toon Link's down air is basically the Air Thrust attack from the Minish Cap instead of the Zelda II down air like the other two Link's have, he does the same animation for it too, quite a neat little detail that is easy to miss.

Wow i originally hated that attack but now thanks to this info i have found a apreciation for it!