Wario's Week 4 Matchup: King Dedede

[PhantomX]

Even if he's approaching it's not that easy to punish D3, especially if he's approaching with Bairs... it just makes it easier and less risky than attempting to rack damage while he's planted firmly on the ground.

It's easier to avoid him altogether than to punish his approaching.

 

[DMG]

The answer isn't just "Aircamp and you win". You have to be REALLY good at reading and understanding very subtle things for it to work against opponents who also understand how it works for Wario.

You have to understand your opponents patterns, you have to quickly compile a function/possibly just a regular formula involving the characters air horizontal speed, their rate of direction transition (how fast/how long it takes them to go from moving full speed left to turning around and moving full speed right in the air), Dedede's ability to Double Jump multiple times, fast fall multiple times, Double Jump in 3 general directions (Straight up, left, right), his hitboxes (attacking and defending), and this isn't including the data you need to compile for Wario involving some of the same facets of information.

There's fairly complicated math behind it, doesn't matter if you can crunch the numbers if you can't actually act out your ideas, so there's a good chance a lot of people won't be able to properly apply it to actual gameplay.

If you want to talk about simpler things, Wario does well on Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, and PS1. Just ban FD in the set or CP them with someone like Falco or Olimar if they pick FD with Dedede.

Also OBM touched on something that is fairly important: After Dedede does a move, if you are right outside his range, you almost always can safely move in and at least poke him with Fair and then back out. Even on his Bair, framewise it's a trap because Wario can punish RIGHT after the hitbox goes away.

 

[Waymas]

try norfair is really easy in there, or brinstar and dont get grabbed , when he up +b = free uair or waft

 

[MorphedChaos]

DMG is right, I dunno, things just come to me it seems. I must really analyze my thought patterns if I want to be as descriptive, but it seems simple enough. (Trying to be more descriptive, I mean. It is hard though when your mind is a raging torrent of chaos, and just about everything comes 'spur of the moment'.)

Also, Besides his grab game, D3 really doesn't have anything on Wario. And like everyone has said, Fair can be used pretty much after any of his moves for free damage.

 

[slikvik]

Everyone saying its even if you don't mess up. How can it be even if D3 has a lot more room for error? Also, what match-up do you consider more difficult than D3?

 

[_Phloat_]

I would assume it is because if they are making the same level of errors, and both are making close to none, it tips in Wario's favor.


And Marth is harder IMO.

 

[slikvik]

I would argue that marth is a much easier match-up since you have more room for error

 

[_Phloat_]

But he has a sword.


SWORD!

 

[slikvik]

A D3 has a fast, massive grab which leads into chaingrab, which then leads into grab release Upsmash/utilt(if they inch forward)

I've also beaten almost every single good marth main on the EC at this point

 

[Gichan]

Slikvik brings up good points. this is where I do not understand when Wario mains say DDD and Wario is even. You have to make nearly no mistakes, and play veeryy patiently to beat a DDD, but it is even?

The truth is, it isn't. We HAVE to try a lot harder than the DDD, OBM brought up a good summary of a match between a Wario and DDD. You make a mistake, 40%, they make a mistake, hopefully 15%. That show is right there. Yes, we do have the tools, but in the end, this is not an even matchup, you have to try harder, meaning you are covering that 10 difference in ratio.

 

[_Phloat_]

Slik, you are probably right. You live in a better region, and you are a better player who has better competition. Around here everyone is aggressive, which makes Marth a bigger challenge. I would definitely say that a campy DDD would be a huge pain, but I haven't played one.

I know Marth is a huge pain though =\.

 

[PhantomX]

Marth is like 55:45 in his favor. I'd put D3 as 60:40 - 55:45 D3s favor.

If you want more room for error against D3, stay near the edges of the stage. One throw into upsmash or whatever is only a little bit more damage than a bite > fair/dair.

P.S. Aggro Marth is easy.

EDIT: Don't underestimate the usefulness of the bike in this matchup. If you get him anywhere offstage, throwing the bike ***** him b/c of his huge size.

 

[FattyFatFatso]

The only advantage I see against DDD is fighting him in the air. Besides his B-air, his other aerials and his bottom ranked DI make it easy for Warios to combo him. I haven't played a campy DDD, but I think controlling aggressiveness from Warios end is key to making this match much less gay. It says something when Phantom X is telling people to play more campy. I think you can DI a full hop D-air away from his standing grab before you land but if he chases you I'm not sure? Can you stil get away? I played an aggressive DDD and he tried to cut of my aerial control but didn't do a good job so he got punished pretty badly. The one thing Warios know is that DDD WANTS to grab you he will try a majority of the time. BadNewsBeah told me the grab can be punished but that means you have to bait it. Anyone have any suggestions on how to punish a grab? Because if we are going to have to play defensive against this character than we need to know how to punish his offense.

 

[DMG]

Ok let me clear this up.

I think people are too hung up on the margin of error and not looking past what happens beyond that horizon:

Wario is a somewhat risky character... at the beginning. He's built as such that if you take risks at the beginning of the game, and succeed, then the match is yours. The secret to beating Dedede is taking a LOT of very small calculated risks against him which the risk to reward is in Wario's favor. Once you do that, you are able to expand into a field where your risk shrinks even further, and the reward can grow immensely.

You can do this to Dedede even on FD. One day I will post a video showing this, maybe from Genesis, maybe from some other tournament.

 

[omegablackmage]

the comparison between ddd and marth i think comes down to the effectiveness of their zone games. DDD has some quick aerial hitboxes and many jumps, but the openings for punishment between moves is pretty large. Marth has large sweeping, fast, disjointed hitboxes with little opening between attacks. Therefore i feel like marth can zone wario better, he just doesn't punish as hard as ddd can for a mistake from wario. They both have pretty good grab ranges, ddd's being better, and somewhat gimpable recoveries.

dmg is right though, although you have to play much more cautiously, at very high levels of play (very focused on not making ANY errors) these matches come down to being extremely even. The oppourtunity for wario to sneak damage in w/o retaliation becomes much more available.

 

[Corrupted]

Do not land in the middle part of the stage. Even if you have to use the bike to avoid doing so. fhdair -> upair -> fhair dair -> half waft can work if you read his di. easy 70 % woahh.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Give me some numbers and we'll call it closed.

 

[PhantomX]

55:45 - 60:40 for D3, in my opinion. Just b/c of that whole margin-for-error thing I believe he warrants being above Marth, even if Marth can zone better.

 

[DMG]

I'll put out a number sometime soon, for now leave it as even and let it be noted that stages heavily affect this matchup.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I've got that in my guide basiacally, Norfair D3 gets *****, stages like Brinstar or Lylat or RC its 60:40, otherwise its 50:50 unless on FD where its 40:60, sounds pretty fair.

 

[Padô]

This match-up is fairly stage dependant, if we got many platforms wario does good if its like final the grab *****, but they are not this bad, Wario can combo DDD easily but still have to play carefully, i'd say 55-45 DDD in GENERAL, considering the stages that are on random. I think inputing various number would be better for our community, FD YI SV 40-60, 50-50 on stages like BF, and 60-40 on Cpicks.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Slikvik brings up good points. this is where I do not understand when Wario mains say DDD and Wario is even. You have to make nearly no mistakes, and play veeryy patiently to beat a DDD, but it is even?

The truth is, it isn't. We HAVE to try a lot harder than the DDD, OBM brought up a good summary of a match between a Wario and DDD. You make a mistake, 40%, they make a mistake, hopefully 15%. That show is right there. Yes, we do have the tools, but in the end, this is not an even matchup, you have to try harder, meaning you are covering that 10 difference in ratio.

What about the fact that Wario is MUCH faster then DDD :/

 

[DMG]

Yeah Wario makes Dedede look like a chump when he runs away. Lol.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Fair or Chomp then run away the entire match IMO.

 

[Gindler]

My least favorite as wario. Haven't perfected not getting grabbed, but i could see it being even with a prowario behind the controls. Can't be as bad as people have told me (30:70 is what I'm usually TOLD it is)

 

[ssbbFICTION]

40:60 ddd wins.

 

[DMG]

That's freakin Bullcrap.

Congrats on beating M2K.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

DDD's bair is like marth with a chaingrab haha. If you want to learn the matchup tho I ***** tyrant's DDD pretty badly on FD at tourneyplay. He got 1 grab and it didnt even get him a chaingrab haha.

 

[CO18]

55:45 Dedede Imo. Don't feel like explaining lol

 

[DMG]

There's only 3 words needed:

Win the neutral.

 

[_Phloat_]

You really don't even need "the".


I mean, it helps.. but it really is dead weight in the end.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Winning the Neutral isn't THAT bad, even on FD. Its just a little though, but not insanely hard.

 

[Pwneroni]

My friend that I always play with plays ONLY DeDeDe, and refuses to play anyone else pretty much. Thus, I have a tremendous wealth of knowledge in the matchup, and let me tell you... it sucks balls. I was ****** this guy.... like super ****.... and then I make the DIRE mistake of messing up an autocancel on my dair. BAM RIGHT IN THE KISSER! He gets a full chain grab across the stage to an upsmash.... like 50 freaking damage.

It's ****in annoying as hell to have to play SO MUCH better than a DeDeDe player. All they have to do is get one grab when you're at 90% and you're ****ing dead. Chain grab to up tilt ***** like none other. Of course you can say "Don't Get Grabbed", and Wario definitely has the tools to do that. The problem is, if you don't play PERFECTLY, then you eat an inescapable 50% combo that kills you at 120%. STUPID AS HELL! (I'm venting a bit).

 

[DMG]

Lol

I love Dedede, I don't know about you guys. I'm dying to go to Genesis so I can camp Atomsk and whoever else goes lol.

 

[Jupz]

Everyone loves Dedede, and Wario is the second most awesome character. This is actually the 2nd most awesome match to watch :D (besides 2 D3's! LOL). I'm not too familar with the actual matchup but I use both these characters so I'll give it a shot.

Anyway Dedede's bair can really hurt Wario as it beats his aerials in range and priority. Dedede is way easier to grab with then most other characters so you will probably get grabbed a few times each match. Expect a CG to grab release Usmash. Zoning with bairs can be tough for wario but you can outmanouver him and come from above with a FF'ed Dair, or when DDD jumps at you with a midair jump and bairs, you can airdodge under and uair. Although he has the worst air movement in the game he can change momentum quickly with jumps. Our Dair outranges your Uair I think. Bites good against DDD cause most Dededes will tend to shield alot. Also we have the inhale that beats all your aerials in range :D Also he can be easy to combo and juggle. Dedede's advantage 55:45 overall IMO because of his superior ground game and the bair.

Please correct me if I got anything wrong

 

[PhantomX]

My friend that I always play with plays ONLY DeDeDe, and refuses to play anyone else pretty much. Thus, I have a tremendous wealth of knowledge in the matchup, and let me tell you... it sucks balls. I was ****** this guy.... like super ****.... and then I make the DIRE mistake of messing up an autocancel on my dair. BAM RIGHT IN THE KISSER! He gets a full chain grab across the stage to an upsmash.... like 50 freaking damage.

It's ****in annoying as hell to have to play SO MUCH better than a DeDeDe player. All they have to do is get one grab when you're at 90% and you're ****ing dead. Chain grab to up tilt ***** like none other. Of course you can say "Don't Get Grabbed", and Wario definitely has the tools to do that. The problem is, if you don't play PERFECTLY, then you eat an inescapable 50% combo that kills you at 120%. STUPID AS HELL! (I'm venting a bit).

That's why the trick to playing this matchup is to at all times when you are grounded, make sure you are are the short end of the stage. That way he'll get like 2 throws > upsmash, which is like 28 percent, only 7 more than his bthrow.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Just aircamp him. D3 is a chump when it comes to Wario if Wario runs away.

Wario is like the Speed Racer, and D3 is like a broken down gokart you find in the junkyard.

 

[haloman800]

This is my favorite mindgame of all. You go up to the back of someone's shield, half waft ready, and you literally just stand there. As soon as they move at all, you waft.

Or on fresh stocks, people like to go near the edges, so you stand near them, and they almost always roll, more free wafts.

If you go behind DDD while he is shielding, he might be able to SH bair you before you have a chance to waft, depends on how quick you react I guess.

 

[LOE1]

sometimes when i get grab released, i dont go up in the ait as usual, but i just fall on the ground so i can roll/run away. is it all just luck if this happens?
cause one time it actually won the game for me LOL

 

[Dynomite]

sometimes when i get grab released, i dont go up in the ait as usual, but i just fall on the ground so i can roll/run away. is it all just luck if this happens?
cause one time it actually won the game for me LOL

Next time just ask the Q&A thread since this thread hasn't been active in MONTHS.

but to answer your question, i'm pretty sure if grabs you on the first grab, your feet are on the ground which lets YOU () choose to break down (by not pressing/holding up or jump) or break by air (if you press up)

BUT!!! if down throws you and grabs again, your feet will be off the ground thus forcing an air release. even if you press down..
^ objection: If the is pummeling you, you can ground break out (keep in mind not to hold, press up or jump) you will ground break.