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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
Iota
Smash Lord
We already passed all the characters that are actually used a good amount. :V
I'll basically do this: Wario is better at killing, Pit is better at dealing safe damage (disjointed range and fast attacks). Wario lives longer (unless it's a gimp). Both can gimp but Wario has the upper hand since Wario can waft Pit's up-b, throw a tire, pressuring with the bike and has good air speed to actually chase Pit. That's why it's important for Pit to not waste his jumps, and he must fly below the stage for the safest option (kinda). Don't underestimate what Pit can do to us since he has som nifty tools too. This MU is definetily not +2 in our favour - it's +1 at best. It would have been even if Pit just was stronger and had an easy way to land a kill move. But I'll say +1, even if I think this MU can be 0 (when Pit has developed more in his metagame). So +1.
DMG: +1
CYVE: +1/+2
Kuro~: +1
ShadowAzure: +2
waldorf2007: +1
Luckay4Lyphe: +2
Iota: +1
(S!C): +1
Tesh: +1
xzx: +1
I feel we have finished discussing the angel now so let's move on the the robot, R.O.B.!
DMG: +1
CYVE: +1/+2
Kuro~: +1
ShadowAzure: +2
waldorf2007: +1
Luckay4Lyphe: +2
Iota: +1
(S!C): +1
Tesh: +1
xzx: +1
I feel we have finished discussing the angel now so let's move on the the robot, R.O.B.!
Iota
Smash Lord
We beat rob +1. He pretty much has the same problem as Pit where he has a good damage output on us but can't kill worth a damn until you're in stale Nair or bair kill range.
I'll go into more detail later.
I'll go into more detail later.
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
Definitely +1, if I've learned anything from playing stingers for hundreds of hours it's that I can't beat him with wario but I damn well should. few reliable ways to kill, and clap goes through just about everything. we can punish almost everything rob does to safety with retreating fair.
My main problem is recovering, actually. if you get hit with a couple fairs rob can read the bike and knock you off early. he can spend a lot of time just hovering and waiting for you.
this shouldn't happen but if you get fair chained at 20 or so and rob never comes back to the edge, it can be the stock for you.
My main problem is recovering, actually. if you get hit with a couple fairs rob can read the bike and knock you off early. he can spend a lot of time just hovering and waiting for you.
this shouldn't happen but if you get fair chained at 20 or so and rob never comes back to the edge, it can be the stock for you.
Croi
Smash Lord
+1.
Watch for his bair and nair - both are predictable but they both last for infinity and a half. His fair wall can get annoying so watch for that at lower percentages.
Watch for his bair and nair - both are predictable but they both last for infinity and a half. His fair wall can get annoying so watch for that at lower percentages.
Make sure you're SDI-ing up and toward the stage if this happens. It shouldn't continue for more than a couple hits, and even if it's more, every hit sends you that much further up that way.
sneakytako
Smash Lord
If ur name is Bpow this MU is -3 ROBs favor.
Syde7
The Sultan of Smut
Def in Wario's favor:
I agree with what DMG said to an extent. ROB is basically going to be retreating to space tilts, F-airs (full jump-retreat, SH retreat, with a few 'in place' F-airs, mixed with 'Advancing' F-airs at low percents), with other aerials and tilts mixed in to keep the Wario guessing. Unless ROB times/spaces the F-air near perfectly, its not as safe an option as one might think (I feel, anyway), and with Wario weaving and baiting... It seems that U-air vs Wario when spaced right works well, but not from directly under... ROB wants to fall away from Wario when U-airing.
Wario really does a lot to diminish ROB's camp game, as he can weave in and out of laser angles quicker than ROB can adjust by jumping/moving forward or backward, etc. Similar situation with gyro. Unless ROB predicts Wario's landing (and he doesn't buffer a shield), or times the shot to take advantage of Wario's high-frame-count jump, or hits him while he is walling with aerials... its a bit difficult to hit with Gyro.
ROBs N- and B-airs are all reasonable safe options as they last a long time, and cover a wide area... but that makes it so hard for ROB to kill later on.
If Wario gets ROB in the air in a defensive position, its hard for him to do much, tbh. Wario's aerial options are just too good, especially when Wario is undearneath ROB (directly under, or jumping from below and drifting to either side). ROB wants to keep the fight as lateral (both on the ground, and in the air) as possible.
ROB is also prone to getting shield poked, so shield pressure on him by Wario is pretty good. (D-airing through or away, falling clap, N-air weaving, and combining these with bike tires)
I'd say its 50/50 off-stage, as if Wario recovers low he can take lots of damage or lose the stock. Most will recover high, and tbh its not worth the gamble (for me) to follow Wario that high up for a KO attempt, as a whiff can mean ROB's stock.
Wario is really good at pestering ROB when he's off-stage, and tho he might not get the outright kill he can possibly deplete ROB's fuel tank for the stock. And, the initial part of up+B makes him a sitting duck for anything, especially a fart.
The match typically plays out as:
ROB moves around (usually retreating) to space zoning/walling moves + camp as best he can. Wario pressures him to one end of the stage. ROB either finds a way back to repeat (easier said than done as almost any retreating aerial can punish theses attempts if read and timed properly.), tries to get a B-throw to get Wario off-stage, or gets knocked off himself.
What ROB wants to do:
A tactical retreat- move away from Wario on HIS terms, zoning/spacing/walling to tack on damage, ideally saving his kill moves (or at least not staling them ALL the way down, to at most mid-strength).
What WARIO wants to do: Chase ROB, but on HIS terms. Wario doesn't want to chase ROB bc he's behind, but because he is successfully pressuring ROB and not allowing him to reset the situation.
All that's my two cents. Its been awhile since I've thought about this MU, and been a long time since I've played it. My knowledge may be out of date. Any replies or thoughts are appreciated.
I agree with what DMG said to an extent. ROB is basically going to be retreating to space tilts, F-airs (full jump-retreat, SH retreat, with a few 'in place' F-airs, mixed with 'Advancing' F-airs at low percents), with other aerials and tilts mixed in to keep the Wario guessing. Unless ROB times/spaces the F-air near perfectly, its not as safe an option as one might think (I feel, anyway), and with Wario weaving and baiting... It seems that U-air vs Wario when spaced right works well, but not from directly under... ROB wants to fall away from Wario when U-airing.
Wario really does a lot to diminish ROB's camp game, as he can weave in and out of laser angles quicker than ROB can adjust by jumping/moving forward or backward, etc. Similar situation with gyro. Unless ROB predicts Wario's landing (and he doesn't buffer a shield), or times the shot to take advantage of Wario's high-frame-count jump, or hits him while he is walling with aerials... its a bit difficult to hit with Gyro.
ROBs N- and B-airs are all reasonable safe options as they last a long time, and cover a wide area... but that makes it so hard for ROB to kill later on.
If Wario gets ROB in the air in a defensive position, its hard for him to do much, tbh. Wario's aerial options are just too good, especially when Wario is undearneath ROB (directly under, or jumping from below and drifting to either side). ROB wants to keep the fight as lateral (both on the ground, and in the air) as possible.
ROB is also prone to getting shield poked, so shield pressure on him by Wario is pretty good. (D-airing through or away, falling clap, N-air weaving, and combining these with bike tires)
I'd say its 50/50 off-stage, as if Wario recovers low he can take lots of damage or lose the stock. Most will recover high, and tbh its not worth the gamble (for me) to follow Wario that high up for a KO attempt, as a whiff can mean ROB's stock.
Wario is really good at pestering ROB when he's off-stage, and tho he might not get the outright kill he can possibly deplete ROB's fuel tank for the stock. And, the initial part of up+B makes him a sitting duck for anything, especially a fart.
The match typically plays out as:
ROB moves around (usually retreating) to space zoning/walling moves + camp as best he can. Wario pressures him to one end of the stage. ROB either finds a way back to repeat (easier said than done as almost any retreating aerial can punish theses attempts if read and timed properly.), tries to get a B-throw to get Wario off-stage, or gets knocked off himself.
What ROB wants to do:
A tactical retreat- move away from Wario on HIS terms, zoning/spacing/walling to tack on damage, ideally saving his kill moves (or at least not staling them ALL the way down, to at most mid-strength).
What WARIO wants to do: Chase ROB, but on HIS terms. Wario doesn't want to chase ROB bc he's behind, but because he is successfully pressuring ROB and not allowing him to reset the situation.
All that's my two cents. Its been awhile since I've thought about this MU, and been a long time since I've played it. My knowledge may be out of date. Any replies or thoughts are appreciated.
Every time R.O.B. uses B-Air, he gives up a little stage control. There isn't much Wario can do about it until R.O.B. is near the edge of the stage, where a B-Air would push him offstage.
I don't think you can reliably get in with DACUS before he can shield if he does it close to the ground, but, I imagine it's doable to catch him as he starts to jump off the ground again. Requires a hard read, though. That said, it would probably scare him from doing it all the time, for better or worse.
Omg i still remember that time something similar happened to me,(rob hit me off the bike)
But the thing is my rob got greedy and try'd it again... so i got him with bite and dragged him down with me
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
I've done that too but then I realized that he was still a stock up so he didn't mash, and I lost.
ARRRRRRRRRR
ARRRRRRRRRR
Gonna take this to the point since I hate discussing ratios and being a theory-crafter and instead use the time to actually play this MU but oh well: On paper Wario wins 55:45, in reality it's 50:50 and if R.O.B. would've had a grab-release it would easily be his favour 55:45.
Wario pokes, juggles, damages and kills R.O.B. way better than R.O.B. does. However we give you a good competition doing so because even if you have the good mobility we have the range. In the air we get at a disadvantage but we actually have a few ways to get around your insane juggling. If you waft us early we have to get that gimp, otherwise it will be really hard to do a come-back unless dat gimp. Getting shield-grabbed by you isn't fun either since very few moves are safe against your shield and your long grab range is pain. R.O.B., on the other hand, has the range and big hitboxes to keep Wario away as well as having a good ground and gimp game against him. If we gimp you you have to either out-play us, camp and get tires (which R.O.B. loves), or getting a waft to kill us early.
Both pressure each other well and this MU is all about knowledge and adaption. You win in the air, we win on the ground. Both are decent in the air/ground too so it adds up and gets even more interesting. This MU is so momentum going (waft/gimp) and fun really anything could happen! My biggest tip to Wario and R.O.B. mainers is to play smart and adapt, sometimes it's better to camp and sometimes it's better to go all aggro, it depends so much on the situation and person using R.O.B./Wario since both characters requires so much skills thus having many different ways to play and it's more about the play style than the characters IMO (thanks to Brawl being a string based game). Trust me I know this MU pretty well because xzx's my twin lol. Anyway 50:50.
Wario pokes, juggles, damages and kills R.O.B. way better than R.O.B. does. However we give you a good competition doing so because even if you have the good mobility we have the range. In the air we get at a disadvantage but we actually have a few ways to get around your insane juggling. If you waft us early we have to get that gimp, otherwise it will be really hard to do a come-back unless dat gimp. Getting shield-grabbed by you isn't fun either since very few moves are safe against your shield and your long grab range is pain. R.O.B., on the other hand, has the range and big hitboxes to keep Wario away as well as having a good ground and gimp game against him. If we gimp you you have to either out-play us, camp and get tires (which R.O.B. loves), or getting a waft to kill us early.
Both pressure each other well and this MU is all about knowledge and adaption. You win in the air, we win on the ground. Both are decent in the air/ground too so it adds up and gets even more interesting. This MU is so momentum going (waft/gimp) and fun really anything could happen! My biggest tip to Wario and R.O.B. mainers is to play smart and adapt, sometimes it's better to camp and sometimes it's better to go all aggro, it depends so much on the situation and person using R.O.B./Wario since both characters requires so much skills thus having many different ways to play and it's more about the play style than the characters IMO (thanks to Brawl being a string based game). Trust me I know this MU pretty well because xzx's my twin lol. Anyway 50:50.
Basically what ccst said. No offense to you who thinks this MU is +1 for Wario but everyone who has said this is in Wario's favour are wrong. This MU is easily even and here's why (kinda): Yeah, Wario is better at killing ROB and Wario survives longer than ROB do (bar gimps), but it all stops there for being a +1 for Wario. Landing kill moves (especially wafts, who are super important in this MU) isn't as easy as you might think, even if we have them (believe me). ROB can rack up damage safely due to his quick start-ups on his attacks and his long range. You have to play a good ROB to actually understand how pain it is to actually coming into ROB('s range). ROB is also hard to approach from above and from the side. ROB can block our approach from above with up-air and up-tilt (both are quick and have nice range). If you think you can approach with fair/nair/dair all the time safely from the side you have wrong: ROB's up-angled f-smash completely shuts down that approach option (trust me). There's nothing that can beat it. What's more... On the sides/ground ROB has d-smash, d-tilt, jab and (pivot) grab to keep us "away". ROB's side-b is also good sometimes, dependant on the situation. These moves make it hard for Wario to attack ROB without taking any damage, which means that trading with ROB shouldn't be neglected. Offstage ROB has his fairs and his ever famous gimp game, so recovering high and as quick/soon as possible is really, really important. On a side note, never go offstage against a ROB, unless you are sure your dair/fair/waft/w/e will hit.
A camping ROB never wins this MU since we can bite his gyro no matter what and dodge his lasers with ease. However, sometimes it's better for ROB to camp, due to his moves getting refreshed (but this in cost of Wario charging his waft. In this situation we can refresh our moves to thanks to the bike and get some tires but just watch out for his projectiles!). Yeah, Wario can juggle ROB decently/well, but just watch out for his surprise nair/dair/bair. ROB is also easy to shield grab and the bite works decently on him (unless we are dropping a bite from above on his poor shield). Tires and the bike (as a projectile) isn't that great unless ROB is in the air. If ROB gets those wheels it's going to kinda hurt if you aren't prepared. Seriously. ROB has the ability to always throw out a fair at you after you have attacked him (especially with fair, nair and dair), which makes it important that you weave out in time. But seriously, get prepared to eat a fair every now and then. After we have attacked ROB in the air he almost always can toss out a fair at you. Oh, and if you get grabbed in the air while you have lost your double jump, prepare for the infinite.
Anyway, to sum it up: Wario lives longer and kills better than ROB. It's not easy to hit ROB with a waft, but if we do that is really rewarding! Wario is better at juggling, poking and general shield pressure. However, ROB is better at gimping, damage racking and can space/out-range Wario well with his quick range attacks (mostly tilts and up-air). If ROB grabs you, never EVER do a jump input - that up-smash is really strong and is going to hurt your stock. If not in killing %, his up-air is coming for solid damage. I don't see why this MU is +1 in Wario's favour. It's even, 0. Trust me, I have played this MU a lot and I know what I am talking about. It's not +1 unless the ROB doesn't know what to do in this MU. Both have great tools against each other. If you still don't believe me, play a good offensive ROB and see for yourself! x) Because this really is a typicall "safe damage vs better killer"-MU.
Iota: +1
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
I want more ratios.
A camping ROB never wins this MU since we can bite his gyro no matter what and dodge his lasers with ease. However, sometimes it's better for ROB to camp, due to his moves getting refreshed (but this in cost of Wario charging his waft. In this situation we can refresh our moves to thanks to the bike and get some tires but just watch out for his projectiles!). Yeah, Wario can juggle ROB decently/well, but just watch out for his surprise nair/dair/bair. ROB is also easy to shield grab and the bite works decently on him (unless we are dropping a bite from above on his poor shield). Tires and the bike (as a projectile) isn't that great unless ROB is in the air. If ROB gets those wheels it's going to kinda hurt if you aren't prepared. Seriously. ROB has the ability to always throw out a fair at you after you have attacked him (especially with fair, nair and dair), which makes it important that you weave out in time. But seriously, get prepared to eat a fair every now and then. After we have attacked ROB in the air he almost always can toss out a fair at you. Oh, and if you get grabbed in the air while you have lost your double jump, prepare for the infinite.
Anyway, to sum it up: Wario lives longer and kills better than ROB. It's not easy to hit ROB with a waft, but if we do that is really rewarding! Wario is better at juggling, poking and general shield pressure. However, ROB is better at gimping, damage racking and can space/out-range Wario well with his quick range attacks (mostly tilts and up-air). If ROB grabs you, never EVER do a jump input - that up-smash is really strong and is going to hurt your stock. If not in killing %, his up-air is coming for solid damage. I don't see why this MU is +1 in Wario's favour. It's even, 0. Trust me, I have played this MU a lot and I know what I am talking about. It's not +1 unless the ROB doesn't know what to do in this MU. Both have great tools against each other. If you still don't believe me, play a good offensive ROB and see for yourself! x) Because this really is a typicall "safe damage vs better killer"-MU.
Iota: +1
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
I want more ratios.
Iota
Smash Lord
Wafts are not that important in this match up. They definitely make killing a lot easier since they kill at around 70-90% but they are not needed to kill. Clap and f-smash are fine at killing Rob and they are not that hard to land once you get in on rob. Rob's damage racking is good but his moves with the safest hitboxes either don't adequately cover Wario's aerial play style (f-tilt, d-tilt, etc.) or require him to give up some of his stage control to space properly (nair and bair). You should never ever be getting hit by Rob's u-smash or f-smash, they require you to commit to something a fairly decent amount for you to get hit. You should really never try to challenge any of Rob's good moves directly, you'll almost always lose. D-smash isn't that great as long as you can SDI it. You should always be spacing to avoid pivot grabs, seriously if you're getting pivot grabbed out of the air by Rob you're probably being predictable. I agree with the gimping game stuff. You ALWAYS want to avoid getting put into a position where you have to recover low, or perpendicular to the stage. You can go offstage vs Rob, you just have to be SUPER careful about it.
Aggro Rob is definitely better than an all out campy Rob but it still doesn't make it even. One of the biggest mistakes I see Warios doing when juggling Rob is try to hit him with an aerial when his hitbox is already out his range is really quite ridiculous so it's usually better to just shield grab him or hit him where his hitbox isn't out. Bite is a useful mix-up tool once you've conditioned Rob to hold shield expecting an aerial. Bike definitely isn't too great of a tool if he isn't in the air or offstage, I disagree with tires though. Rob's item game is a huge pain if you aren't used to it, but it's very linear imo so it shouldn't take too long for you to learn how to deal with a rob with items. You definitely want to be very lenient when hitting Rob with aerials, but you shouldn't have to worry too much about getting hit by fair after an aerial as long as you aren't hitting with the weak part of fair/nair. Can't you bike out of the infinite? If you can't I would suggest just avoiding stages without platforms (SV, Lylat, BF, etc.).
I agree with a lot of things you're saying Xzx but I also disagree with a good amount of them too lol. It's not a very bad match-up for Rob if he plays well enough but I don't see it being even.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
fart is actually pretty important, its hard to keep uair fresh and trust me youre NOT going to land fsmash unless you cheese your way through
Croi
Smash Lord
If you count the frames (and you're physically close enough to ROB), you can fsmash out of ROB's dsmash.
A ROB that knows the MU is never going to use dsmash though so...yeah g/l with that.
A ROB that knows the MU is never going to use dsmash though so...yeah g/l with that.
Iota
Smash Lord
Uair is kinda hard to keep fresh. I usually don't have trouble getting a grab around 110-130 for refreshing it with pummels though. F-smash isn't TOO hard to land. It requires a read or for you to get lucky but it's not like rob has a billion different options to choose from. From my experience it's easier to land f-smash then it is to land waft. I do think can be really big in this mu if you land it but I wouldn't count on it.
So false, ugh this is why I hate theory...
And xzx, I disagree with you when you state that "ROB is better at damage racking", when it's Wario who does more damage with his moves. However, they're both equal in terms of hitting each other.
I'm torn between 0 and +1. I feel this matchup plays a lot like Peach, but, it's been a while since I've played it, too. I've beaten Stingers a few times, played Bees a little...
Iota
Smash Lord
Peaches aerials are faster, impossible to punish oos if spaced and don't require her to give up some stage control to avoid punish. That alone makes peach harder than Rob imo.
Peach is much easier to tack on damage via edgeguarding and juggling.
If it hasn't been mentioned I will throw it out there. On a flat surface ROB cannot force an air release on Wario(Possibly he can air release on ledge but that only gets you a tilted fsmash) however if the Wario does mash jump while trying to break a grab ROB does get a free uSmash or tilted up fsmash. Imo it is -1 or even -2 for ROB. ROB gets uAired at low percentage, cannot kill Wario until rather high percentages, and also recovery is very risky against Wario because ROB cannot airdodge during his recovery. Making a predictable use of Robboburner punishable with waft. Wario mainly has to stick to the air. He can bait out responses from ROB and just has to look for the startup on projectiles. Imo bad MU for reasons stated above. Hope my input helps at all. I have played Reflex(a while back) and used to play against a Wario all of the time who was actually top 3 here in Colorado.
Edit: Also as far as approaching, retreating fAir is really had for ROB to deal with and even though from above and from the side approaching is difficult. Approaching at 45 degree angles from above make it extremely hard for ROB to do anything(utilt doesn't have a very big hitbox horizontally, and tilted up ftilt cannot cover the blindspot where utilt doesn't have a hit box) making ROBs only really option throwing out fSmash tilted up with may be fast, but has enough cool down to take advantage of, or SH fair, which can be baited and punished rather effectively.
Edit: Also as far as approaching, retreating fAir is really had for ROB to deal with and even though from above and from the side approaching is difficult. Approaching at 45 degree angles from above make it extremely hard for ROB to do anything(utilt doesn't have a very big hitbox horizontally, and tilted up ftilt cannot cover the blindspot where utilt doesn't have a hit box) making ROBs only really option throwing out fSmash tilted up with may be fast, but has enough cool down to take advantage of, or SH fair, which can be baited and punished rather effectively.
Iota: +1
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: +1
TheReflexWonder: 0/+1
Bees!: +1
@Iota: Waft is super important in this MU, since up-air will not be fresh and landing an f-smash is hard when ROB has frame 3 d-tilt and frame 3 jab. Yeah, every move ROB has on the ground are faster than Wario's frame 8 f-smash, which makes it difficult to land (if it's not a super armored f-smash hit). When I kill/hit with f-smash is when ROB hasn't made a side-b on purpose, or when ROB is attacking from offtstage into you. Unless you hit with f-smash during the super armor frames, you are not going to hit very often with f-smash (bar mind games).
ROB's pivot grab beats every aerial we have (I think) and it is disjointed (like every other pivot) and it is fast too (and has little ending lag). It isn't dangerous for him to spam it, even if I don't recommend it. It's safe so one must be careful.
Going off stage against ROB isn't worth it. He has his annoying up-air to block you from above. He has fair and bair to scare you with too. Good luck doing actually something against ROB off stage, if it isn't to throw out a random aerial that might hit or a bite. Waft could hit but every ROB should know there's a reason a Wario wanna go off stage against ROB... (It's better if we do something useful with the bike instead.)
Well, the thing is that ROB can throw out a fair after an aerial. Not at the highest percentages, but from 0%-100% maybe. It's easier for ROB to do so when we have staled our aerials too. If you think you can follow up with another aerial after an aerial you have wrong. ROB has always room to throw out a fair, if we don't weave out in time, thus elliminating the possibility to do an aerial follow up. Seriously, always have in mind that a fair can pop up anywhere and anytime after you attack ROB in the air. But this may work, if Wario makes an earial --> weave out ---> an aerial again. Haven't tried it but yeah.
@ccst: Well yeah, Wario's moves do more damage per attack than what ROB moves do, but on the other side ROB can hit Wario more times with them. ROB has more useful multihit moves than Wario has. As I said, this is a typical "safe damage vs. better killer"-MU. I'm not saying Wario is bad at racking up damage but it's harder for Wario to rack damage on ROB than vice versa (in most cases). I have already written the reasons in my previous post. (But Wario wins in the air (assuming ROB is above Wario) and ROB wins on the ground and off stage. Both are good in the air.)
@Bees!: No, recovering isn't the slightest risky for ROB if he does it smartly. Even if ROB could have air dodged during the recovery that would still be worse than actually recovering back attacking. I don't know if you know this but ROB isn't forced to use up-b all the time. ROB can do it a little, then attack again, then up-b again and so on. ccst is a master of this and what I've seen, ROB doesn't have the slightes disadvantage when he is recovering. Don't just be to predictable with it and recover smart. If ROB just use his up-b without doing anything, then it's a free waft. Otherwise it shouldn't and a good ROB should not get wafted 9/10. When we do hit with a waft is when ROB has somehow messed up with his recovery.
IMO this MU was +1 for Wario before, when ROB wasn't that developed in his meta game. But today ROB has developed much and I recommend that you play a good ROB today and see what ROB actually can do and what Wario actually can do. It's so easy to say that Wario has an advantage when you haven't played a good ROB yet. I'm not forcing anyone to say this MU is even - but I just want to serve you people my knowledge about this MU, since I have played a really good ROB and know what I am talking about. If you haven't played this MU much it may feel like Wario's favour, but I say this isn't. This is even and I know it. Not in Wario's favour, and not in ROB's favour.
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: +1
TheReflexWonder: 0/+1
Bees!: +1
@Iota: Waft is super important in this MU, since up-air will not be fresh and landing an f-smash is hard when ROB has frame 3 d-tilt and frame 3 jab. Yeah, every move ROB has on the ground are faster than Wario's frame 8 f-smash, which makes it difficult to land (if it's not a super armored f-smash hit). When I kill/hit with f-smash is when ROB hasn't made a side-b on purpose, or when ROB is attacking from offtstage into you. Unless you hit with f-smash during the super armor frames, you are not going to hit very often with f-smash (bar mind games).
ROB's pivot grab beats every aerial we have (I think) and it is disjointed (like every other pivot) and it is fast too (and has little ending lag). It isn't dangerous for him to spam it, even if I don't recommend it. It's safe so one must be careful.
Going off stage against ROB isn't worth it. He has his annoying up-air to block you from above. He has fair and bair to scare you with too. Good luck doing actually something against ROB off stage, if it isn't to throw out a random aerial that might hit or a bite. Waft could hit but every ROB should know there's a reason a Wario wanna go off stage against ROB... (It's better if we do something useful with the bike instead.)
Well, the thing is that ROB can throw out a fair after an aerial. Not at the highest percentages, but from 0%-100% maybe. It's easier for ROB to do so when we have staled our aerials too. If you think you can follow up with another aerial after an aerial you have wrong. ROB has always room to throw out a fair, if we don't weave out in time, thus elliminating the possibility to do an aerial follow up. Seriously, always have in mind that a fair can pop up anywhere and anytime after you attack ROB in the air. But this may work, if Wario makes an earial --> weave out ---> an aerial again. Haven't tried it but yeah.
@ccst: Well yeah, Wario's moves do more damage per attack than what ROB moves do, but on the other side ROB can hit Wario more times with them. ROB has more useful multihit moves than Wario has. As I said, this is a typical "safe damage vs. better killer"-MU. I'm not saying Wario is bad at racking up damage but it's harder for Wario to rack damage on ROB than vice versa (in most cases). I have already written the reasons in my previous post. (But Wario wins in the air (assuming ROB is above Wario) and ROB wins on the ground and off stage. Both are good in the air.)
@Bees!: No, recovering isn't the slightest risky for ROB if he does it smartly. Even if ROB could have air dodged during the recovery that would still be worse than actually recovering back attacking. I don't know if you know this but ROB isn't forced to use up-b all the time. ROB can do it a little, then attack again, then up-b again and so on. ccst is a master of this and what I've seen, ROB doesn't have the slightes disadvantage when he is recovering. Don't just be to predictable with it and recover smart. If ROB just use his up-b without doing anything, then it's a free waft. Otherwise it shouldn't and a good ROB should not get wafted 9/10. When we do hit with a waft is when ROB has somehow messed up with his recovery.
IMO this MU was +1 for Wario before, when ROB wasn't that developed in his meta game. But today ROB has developed much and I recommend that you play a good ROB today and see what ROB actually can do and what Wario actually can do. It's so easy to say that Wario has an advantage when you haven't played a good ROB yet. I'm not forcing anyone to say this MU is even - but I just want to serve you people my knowledge about this MU, since I have played a really good ROB and know what I am talking about. If you haven't played this MU much it may feel like Wario's favour, but I say this isn't. This is even and I know it. Not in Wario's favour, and not in ROB's favour.
Iota
Smash Lord
I'll go ahead and put my vote for +1, though I think it's a "weak" +1. R.O.B. doesn't threaten Wario enough with his walling, and it's not very difficult to nudge him toward the edge of the stage in order to get something started when compared to other characters that wall us. His damage output isn't substantial enough, and I feel he is too predictable as a character to get in much damage if we play conservatively.
BPx
Smash Lord
nair tooooooooooo strong
Iota: +1
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Bees!: +1
@Iota and Reflex: Okay, I hope you battle a good ROB and see it for yourselves! >=3 And BUUURNN!!! lol nah just kidding. x)
I feel that we are ready with the 'bot so let's move on to Kirby.
waldorf2007: +1
Croi: +1
DuLL_RaZer: +1
ccst: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Bees!: +1
@Iota and Reflex: Okay, I hope you battle a good ROB and see it for yourselves! >=3 And BUUURNN!!! lol nah just kidding. x)
I feel that we are ready with the 'bot so let's move on to Kirby.
Croi
Smash Lord
I can not for the life of me even scratch Chu Dat. My only real advice is to never recover low - otherwise I just don't know what the ****. Even.
Vinylic.
Woke?
Utilt beats all of wario's aerials, followed by spaced bairs. Still, wario takes the advantage. (+1)
Edit-- I looked through the past MU threads on the Kirby boards. This MU thread is old, but I think it already covers some of the MU info.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277818
Edit-- I looked through the past MU threads on the Kirby boards. This MU thread is old, but I think it already covers some of the MU info.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277818
BPx
Smash Lord
i think theres a chance wario could lose this mu, if not its even; regardless, i hate this mu almost as much as i hate luigi
This MU is 0/+1 for Wario. Kirby has the ability to make things hellish for Wario but not enough to have it be in Kirby's favour.
*shrug* I mean Kirby just makes things harder for Wario to do things he can normally do with other characters. I'm tired so maybe I can think of more coherent things to say later.
*shrug* I mean Kirby just makes things harder for Wario to do things he can normally do with other characters. I'm tired so maybe I can think of more coherent things to say later.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
i think i can only comment on this if people mention what they actually find difficult to understand about this matchup