Wario's Match-Ups!

[Iota]

I feel that this match up is even. It's just very annoying because you can't do your normal vertical spacing and approach tactics. Avoid doing double jump air camping and approaching out of a double jump. GW murders those tactics with his nair, u-tilt, up-b, and u-smash if he reads you hard. Approach with SH options instead but be very careful not to overcommit or you're still eating 30-50% from an aerial string.

Learn to tech his d-throw and mix up techs with ordinary get up attacks and rolls. If GW tries to do the jab gimmick just mash jump towards him and you'll footstool him before he gets his grab out, this can lead to a possible aerial punish if you're good at doing aerials out of footstools.

Do not challenge GW's dair unless he's in uair kill percents and is in a position for you to trade with it. You do not get much from trading your uair with his dair otherwise. You can beat GW's nair with your f-tilt, bair, and fair. F-tilt leads to a kill at around 90-160% depending on DI and location. Try to go over GW's bair if you have enough time and punish with your dair. You can shield and punish with grab or bair if he overcommits. Fair kills Wario at around 140-160% and is generally going to be what you're going to die from (along with dair). You can punish a fair on your shield with the majority of your moveset depending on its spacing.

GW's kill game is very strong but his strongest moves are pretty easy to avoid as long as you aren't overcomitting/getting read. GW definitely has an easier time damaging us with his nair strings and such, but we have the upper edge with killing since we're usually in a position to hit him with a clap, waft, or f-smash when punishing him.

GW's up-b has invincibility frames so don't bother hitting him out of it until the end of it. Something that's very useful for getting a punish when GW is recovering is grabbing the ledge right before he up-b's, forcing him to land on the stage, this can lead to a free aerial/waft depending on how he landed. You can also increase the amount of punish time you have on him by putting your bike next to the ledge so it lags his up-b's hitbox. Be very careful when using full waft, if GW uses up-b or uair during our full waft we'll die off the top.

Again this MU is pretty much even or 0. Neither character can really do anything significant to one another outside of pokes until a mistake or a read takes place. GW just has an easier time learning it because everything is pretty much ordinary GW tactics, compared to Wario who has to play the MU in a way that's anti-habitual.

I'm surprised Lord Chair hasn't posted yet, I guess he gave up on us hasn't had the time

EDIT: Because I never got to this...

That's a really great idea (the latter one)! =) Cannot you do it for me, please? =D

EDIT: When you click on a "thingy" you actually only come to the post. You cannot scroll down...

If you click on the link in the top right corner for the single posts it'll take you to the page where that post was at. If it doesn't do that for you then I'm not sure what to say other than it possibly being a glitch with the forums.

 

[Lord Chair]

I haven't had time, I could dig up the one megapost I once made on this matchup but as of yet I've mostly been hungover and trying to to productive things other than exploring the gaw MU.

Something I have to add which I may or may not have shared before: learn how the windbox of gaw's upb works and use it to your advantage however possible. There are certain positions around gaw in which he cannot really use upb without carrying you with him without hitting with the actual hitbox. If you manage to get sucked in like that you can get a free fart/uair/whateverthe****youwant.

 

[DMG]

That's true but it's very hard to abuse that for two reasons. The first is that you have to be really really close with Wario to get that. G&W using the latter invincibility to eat through Wario, where the windbox is already over, probably occurs more than Upb timings that would allow you to ride the "air wave".

The second thing is that G&W can pick what direction he goes to out of Upb. Either way, it's def possible to get a hit from it, but not very easy most of the time unless you expect to be riding it.

 

[xzx]

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1
MEOW1337KITTEH: -1
ShadowAzure: 0
Triforce of Chozo: 0
LOE1: 0
One-Up: +1
Iota: 0

 

[Nicks]

this is probs my most knowledgable MU.

I would have to say -1 for wario

if the G&W knows how to play the MU it is so hard to rack up damage

 

[Lord Chair]

0 by the way

edit: i may have said +1 on the MU chart but ive changed my mind on that ratio

 

[Croi]

Weird how all the Warios are moaning about how haaaaaard it is to even get into G&W when the consensus is the MU is even.

I agree, by the way, it's even. But it's haaaaaard.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We deal a lot of damage when we're in and he dies early, but it's offset by the fact that it's hard to get in.

 

[xzx]

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1
MEOW1337KITTEH: -1
ShadowAzure: 0
Triforce of Chozo: 0
LOE1: 0
One-Up: +1
Iota: 0
Nicks: -1
Lord Chair: 0
Croi: 0

TheReflexWonder, can I get your oppinion on the ratio and MU? =P It's always good when a "Top 2 Wario in the world" shares acknowledge!

 

[Waymas]

imo i think reflex is better than glutonny.

 

[bassem6]

I think this MU is pretty much even, or maybe even +1 for Wario at times. G&W can shut down Wario's standard dair game with nair and uptilt, but I still don't think it's enough to make it in G&W's favor. Wario is just too hard to hit with smash attacks.
I summon Bassem

*woooooooooshhhhhhh*

Who dares disturb me from my slumber?!

its 50:50 imo though I havent played any tourny winning game and watches in a while. I'll get back to you after I play vinnie one of these days if he doesnt choose to gay me out with IC's.

 

[-LzR-]

I will have to say it's dead even. Nair > Wario, but he punishes so hard and both character have solid tools against each other. I also find Wario to be the hardest character to land GWs smashes against.

 

[xzx]

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1
MEOW1337KITTEH: -1
ShadowAzure: 0
Triforce of Chozo: 0
LOE1: 0
One-Up: +1
Iota: 0
Nicks: -1
Lord Chair: 0
Croi: 0
bassem6: 0
-LzR-: 0

@-LzR-: Harder than MK??

 

[DMG]

You can pressure MK or catch him after bad decisions like shuttle loop tornado etc with G&W. Dthrow setups also are easier to land on MK than Wario. MK spacing on the ground and being reallllly safe, probably harder. Same with Marth. But overall gameplay considered yeah Wario's really hard for G&W to smash.

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah it's easier to hit MK with smashes. If MK is dumb enough to nado or SL badly then it's a free uair or upb into a free smash. He is also kinda easy to tech chase, being a lightweight.

 

[xzx]

Let's move on to Fox! I just wanna say that I don't know how to do these "post counts" or what it is (#). So, if somebody else can do it for me, I would appreciate it a lot.

Okay, to the MU: Basically, both can kill each other. Fox has up-smash, bair, up-air and some bunch of other weaker killing moves. Wario has like every move that can kill him. Fox is a super lightweight which means that he gets killed pretty early by Wario's attacks (Wario's up-air kills him surprisingly well when fresh). But both can kill each other; just Wario having the upper edge of doing so.

Fox doesn't have any threatening range to Wario, and vice versa. Bite can stop most things Fox have, and making trades with his attacks is not hard. If we get him offstage, tires and especially the bike will get him into trouble. Gimping him shouldn't be that hard I think. Most of his blaster shots can be blocked by the bike too. Thank goodness we can't chain-grab him and thank goodness Fox can't get a guaranteed grab-release on us.

But overall, both can kill, both have non-threatening range and both have good tools against each others. Wario has the slight upper edge in this MU though, making this +1.

xzx: +1

 

[Player-1]

Fox is a really bad char, you +4 him

 

[Player-3]

Even ,

 

[fox67890]

I don't play competitively offline, so take my words with a grain of salt if you want.

Using Fox's Fair competes well vs Wario's air game (imo) as it gives Fox a horizontal boost and generally beats Wario aerials (dair generally does also). It also beats Wario bike (unless he does a wheelie...I think?). Vs Bike it's good to shield>unblock>dash back upsmash for a punish. Depending on how Wario is spacing his jumps, Fox can run underneath and pass him to reset spacing and start lasering all over again (in my exp). Although our lasers don't deal hit stun, we have mobility so lasers do still rack up damage fast in my experience (note to foxes: I believe bike comes out fast, so don't get hit while you're in the middle of an SHTL). We have no guaranteed grab release on Wario, but if you can force one over an edge/ledge or the Wario air breaks by hitting jump, then you can upsmash him. I've personally haven't had problems vs Wario in being edge-guarded, as long as I used shine stalling appropriately. He probably is a lot better compared to other characters at it though. Wario's a bit harder to combo compared to other characters in my experience also.

@xzx: Yeah, I would think Wario's bite is good vs Fox, as long as it's not wiffed. I don't really know who kills who earlier, but Fox lives longer compared to other lightweights due to his good vertical momentum
canceling ability. Just thought I'd mention that.

Here's a vid of TKD playing Fidel. He doesn't really take the Fair approach as much, but I think it's still a good video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLZkglmTPKw

It's even imo. But that aside, what do you think Fox mains could do to play this MU better?

 

[DMG]

I think Fox Bair is better at dealing with Wario actually because I think Fox wants to avoid rising in the air vs Wario. The MU is not annoying because of what Fox does in the air: it's how Fox can move around quickly on the ground. Fox does better grounded, OR when airborne trying to stay close to the ground. SH aerials are much better than full hopped because they get Fox back to the ground quicker, and I also think Bair is harder to deal with because it doesn't rise/doesn't last for so long.

It's pretty even. Maybe 55:45 for Wario, but nothing huge.

 

[fox67890]

I meant short hop fair btw. Not full hop ones. I do agree with the point about ground based combat. Fox's SH bair doesn't seem as reliable as SH fair in my experience though.

 

[DMG]

I think it is. SDI out of Fair, combined with the move lasting so long, it tends to do a worse job at actually stopping Wario. It's more "annoying" because he's swatting at the air back and forth, but it's the weaker option imo.

 

[LOE1]

well, there is only 1 good fox in my state offline, and last time i played him, i lost to him. i think things will be a little different next time...

fox dair to utilt blah blah blah we all know about it. doesnt work as well on wario though because of his aerial mobility. nothin much to say there.

against fox and falco, i personally like the use of bike because it can actually hit as a punish to short hop lasers. just make a good read and it will be sure to hit.

from what ive played, fox can grab wario decently(correct me if im wrong here). bite is definatly a usefull resouce in this fight. shuts down foxes ground game pretty nicely.

now, this mu i find it a little hard to hit a waft. fox is pretty darn fast, and im unsure how to punish something he does with a waft. you guys are gonna need to help me out with that.

last but not least, the stages. i like frigate in general, and i dont think its the best for fox. i would normally cp frigate or possible dp. as for starting out, sv is always a safe choice. i would think to ban BF vs fox because platforms can get in the way of your air game, while fox can just stay on the ground. at FD you have alot more room to utilize. but all in all, im not too sure what stages are good/bad for fox. these are just some assumptions.

all in all, wario has a small advantage vs fox. +1

 

[1PokeMastr]

Doesn't Wario have a chaingrab of Fox with D-Throw ? If so, what damage does it start at and end at ?

And Dair -> U-Tilt isn't guaranteed at all. If you SDi up and out of the dair, that's one way.
Another is to just hold shield, and you'll Ps the U-Tilt and get a free Dair/ Nair Oos ( Uair might hit, not sure though ).

 

[DMG]

No CG on Fox. We can Dthrow to turn around Dtilt, but you're probably better just Fthrowing.

 

[Zinoto]

So, I don't know where to post this, but we're discussing you guys, It looks like you're already done with the MU, but could you guys drop by and help us out?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=326761

 

[xzx]

xzx: +1
Player-3: 0
fox67890: 0
DMG: 0/+1
LOE1: +1

 

[One-Up]

did anyone else know that fox has robotic legs o.O no wonder that usmash is so good...

 

[xzx]

Come on guys! More ratios!

 

[Waymas]

In my opinion i think this MU is even, wario has some really good tools to shut fox down like dthrow to buffered dtilt and bite are really good alsoo and gimping fox is easier than falco so give it a try. Fox will prolly just wall you with fairs , and with dair and his annoying utilt. But play with patience also. Keep in mind fox also dies really early, he cant gr you btw so dont jump break!.

Again IMO this MU is even.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +1
Player-3: 0
fox67890: 0
DMG: 0/+1
LOE1: +1
Buff: 0

Thanks Buff. More ratios please!

 

[LOE1]

why did this thread die

 

[Croi]

Because nobody plays Fox enough to have a solid opinion on the MU.

 

[DMG]

It's basically even. Best it could possibly be is 6:4 for Wario, or 5:5 for Fox imo.

 

[xzx]

xzx: +1
Player-3: 0
fox67890: 0
DMG: 0/+1
LOE1: +1
Buff: 0
DMG: 0

I want TheReflexWonder's opinion on this MU! =P

 

[Iota]

You listed DMG twice xzx.

About the Fox MU though. I think it's +1 in our favor. It's generally a pain in the *** to deal with his dair gimmicks and zoning tactics but we have the advantage with doing damage per hit and killing imo.

I personally hate this MU a lot though so I'm not gonna say anything more about it.

 

[xzx]

xzx: 0
Player-3: 0
fox67890: 0
LOE1: +1
Buff: 0
DMG: 0
Iota: +1

Ooops, didn't saw that, Iota! x) Anyhow, uppon further inspection, it seems that I have underestimated what Fox can do in this MU. Yes, Wario still has some major advantages over Fox, but Fox' aerials combined with his good ground game (with his running) can make it hard for Wario to approach. Fox has some neat tools vs Wario, but so does Wario.

Should we move on to Peach?

 

[DMG]

-1 ish for Peach. I think she wins. I see her as a less good Marth.

 

[-LzR-]

Peach wins. Her aerials cover almost everything and have almost nonexistant lag. The grabreleases definitely hurt as well. At 30% we can GR to 4 uairs and at 100% we can usmash for the kill. At 0% we can simply cg you to 19% and double hit nair. No matter when you get grabbed, it's gonna hurt. It's still only -1 for you guys as Wario can easily edgeguard Peach and juggle her forever with his uair.

 

[Croi]

-1. She's quick and nimble when she needs to be, and she can float through the air. Not an awful mu ultimately but definitely not a favourable one.