Wario

[Spinosaurus]

Well what could he use from Wario Land aside from the shoulder bash, which doesn't work in the context of a fighting game unless you change it drastically?

You can't just copy a character's move 1:1 and expect it to work.

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

Everyone saying that the bike should be cut is kind of awful...it's probably the best way you can rep WarioWare as a whole and is superfun in pretty much every one of it's uses. If we do get a huge Wario Land overhaul (which won't happen), it should still be in there - make it the bloody car if you have to.

Make his charge his dash attack. There you go. Perfect. I could definitely see that happening, especially since DK's stupid kick thing is being replaced with his actual dash attack this time.

 

[ProjectAngel]

Well what could he use from Wario Land aside from the shoulder bash, which doesn't work in the context of a fighting game unless you change it drastically?

You can't just copy a character's move 1:1 and expect it to work.

His ground pound could work as a downward air with stall-then-fall properties.

His shoulder charge could work as his dash attack.

His earthquake from Wario Land: Shake It! could work as a down smash.

He has his punch-punch-headbutt combo from Wario World that could work as a new neutral combo.

The Wild Swing Ding from Wario World is already represented as his forward throw, but it needs to damage other opponents.

 

[Morbi]

Everyone saying that the bike should be cut is kind of awful...it's probably the best way you can rep WarioWare as a whole and is superfun in pretty much every one of it's uses. If we do get a huge Wario Land overhaul (which won't happen), it should still be in there - make it the bloody car if you have to.

Make his charge his dash attack. There you go. Perfect. I could definitely see that happening, especially since DK's stupid kick thing is being replaced with his actual dash attack this time.

I don't mind the bike, I actually like it. I just feel as though it needs to be buffed in some aspect or another.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm....buff the bike.....

I GOT IT.

He rides while swashbuckling people.

 

[ProjectAngel]

I don't mind the bike, I actually like it. I just feel as though it needs to be buffed in some aspect or another.

Have it come out faster? Have Wario get back on it faster? There's not much to be done without making the move seem overpowered.

 

[Morbi]

Have it come out faster? Have Wario get back on it faster? There's not much to be done without making the move seem overpowered.

I was thinking more along the lines of more knock-back. I do not have any problems with its speed.

 

[Spinosaurus]

His ground pound could work as a downward air with stall-then-fall properties.

His shoulder charge could work as his dash attack.

His earthquake from Wario Land: Shake It! could work as a down smash.

He has his punch-punch-headbutt combo from Wario World that could work as a new neutral combo.

The Wild Swing Ding from Wario World is already represented as his forward throw, but it needs to damage other opponents.

That is awfully basic.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Well what could he use from Wario Land aside from the shoulder bash, which doesn't work in the context of a fighting game unless you change it drastically?

You can't just copy a character's move 1:1 and expect it to work.

Well I would expect this to work, because functionally it'd be just like several other moves in the game?

 

[DoubleYooToo]

That is awfully basic.

And? That's Wario. That's how he fights. Little Mac is pretty basic too, they're not going to make up a bunch of crap to diversify him, I think this should apply to Wario too since he's already diverse because he's Wario.

 

[hotdogturtle]

they're not going to make up a bunch of crap to diversify him when he's already diverse because he's Wario.

Why not, that's literally what Sakurai did to him in Brawl instead of using anything from his actual games.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Why not, that's literally what Sakurai did to him in Brawl instead of using anything from his actual games.

I'm saying they didn't do it to Little Mac, and I don't think they should do it to Wario, but yeah I made that pretty unclear so i revised it.

He wouldn't be the first Brawl newcomer to have his moveset completely reworked. Or the second.

 

[Spinosaurus]

LOL Lil Mac is a boxer, if all his punches are just punches to you then that's pretty ignorant. Unlike Lil Mac, a character who is based on an established, diverse sport, Wario Land Wario has only a few notable moves that either aren't very practical (powers ups and enemy throwing) or are moves that character have as A moves/dash attacks. (Shoulder bash) There's the butt stomp, but it's not like we DON'T have enough of those already. Or is Wario Land a multi-styled sport and you can go to the gym to practice it? Are you gonna tell a boxer that Lil Mac is "basic"? Go on, I'd love to educate you.

Why you so against Brawl Wario anyway? You really want to replace a unique fighter that embodies Warioware for a generic beat em up character because "WARIO LAND CAME FIRST"? I don't get that logic.

Well I would expect this to work, because functionally it'd be just like several other moves in the game?

No, you're going by aesthetics.

But then again you said the bike is pretty much like the shoulder bash before, so I don't even know why I was gonna bother trying to explain the difference between function and aesthetics if you're so dense on this subject. I feel like you said something without much thought and are stuck trying to defend it.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

LOL Lil Mac is a boxer, if all his punches are just punches to you then that's pretty ignorant. Unlike Lil Mac, a character who is based on an established, diverse sport, Wario Land Wario has only a few notable moves that either aren't very practical (powers ups and enemy throwing) or are moves that character have as A moves/dash attacks. (Shoulder bash) There's the butt stomp, but it's not like we DON'T have enough of those already. Or is Wario Land a multi-styled sport and you can go to the gym to practice it? Are you gonna tell a boxer that Lil Mac is "basic"? Go on, I'd love to educate you.

Why you so against Brawl Wario anyway? You really want to replace a unique fighter that embodies Warioware for a generic beat em up character because "WARIO LAND CAME FIRST"? I don't get that logic.

No, you're going by aesthetics.

But then again you said the bike is pretty much like the shoulder bash before, so I don't even know why I was gonna bother trying to explain the difference between function and aesthetics if you're so dense on this subject. I feel like you said something without much thought and are stuck trying to defend it.

Yeah, strawman harder.

The point I'm trying to make is that Little Mac's fighting style isn't complex, and they adapted that well into Super Smash Bros. They didn't add a bunch of arbitrary **** like a glove on a rope, no Super Macho Man spin punches, no Bull Charge like everyone was suggesting, they just stuck with the way he really fights and kept it within the reasonable boundaries of what his character is: a pure, clean boxer. Because they knew he didn't need that padding stuff to make him work well as a fighter in Super Smash Bros. Wario's fighting style in the games he appears in is not overly complex, but that doesn't make it generic. He punches and kicks, He charges, he ground-pounds. Saying it like that makes it sounds simplistic, sure, but it's not. It's got character. It's defined by the way Wario moves, he's heavy but surprisingly acrobatic nonetheless. He hits hard and breaks things. He lifts huge enemies over his head and throws them with little effort, all with a smile on his face. That's all completely workable and would make him a much better adaptation of Wario than the insane slide show we got in Brawl.

What made people like Wario in the first place is that he's the perfect foil to Mario's heroism. Mario is strong for his physique, but Wario is absolutely hulking. Mario is courageous and heroic, while Wario is driven by greed and completely reckless. It's easy to forget with all the characterization that that's what he is: the anti-Mario. When he's alongside Mario and Luigi, and he moves like Mr. Game and Watch while they move like they always have, it just doesn't make sense. He's appeared alongside them in so many games, why is he suddenly under different laws of physics? It's just too much of a deviation from what people know Wario for, and from the things that made him such a popular character that they used him to make an untried game concept like Wario Ware appealing.

Wario Land INVENTED the "Butt Stomp." It's the first time that had ever appeared in any Mario game. I'm not talking about aesthetics, it works as a move, you need only play Project M to see that. How can you say they just wouldn't work as moves? They wouldn't be at all hard to implement in a game like Super Smash Bros where fighters do all kinds of crazy things to attack. Your idea that these moves would be for some reason less adaptable than other characters moves doesn't have any actual foundation other than that you decided it was so. Everything Wario does in Wario Land would work. And why stop at Wario Land? The traditional Wario, the big, strong, anti-Mario has had many playable appearance. Bomb-based moves would be fitting, they're a big part of Wario's Woods, and The Bob-Omb debuted as his special item in Mario Kart. He was one of the player characters in Super Mario 64 DS, that would be a good place to take his standard A move animations from, much like Mario's came from Super Mario 64.

I'm against Brawl Wario because it's a horrible interpretation of the character. He doesn't really embody Wario Ware at all, that's something people seem to say a lot but it's just wrong. The way he behaves is nothing like the way he behaved in the Wario Ware games, none of his moves are directly based on the gameplay of Wario Ware or the famous minigames, the only thing really is the Bike, and that's from cutscenes. The whole choppy movement thing has always perplexed me, Wario didn't move like that in the Wario Ware cutscenes, it's strange that people so happily accepted that from Sakurai when it seems like something he just spontaneously came up with. Instead of giving him a fighting style based on the original Wario, the one we all knew and loved, he just did completely his own thing. And that's not what Super Smash Bros should be. It's fine for a character like Captain Falcon, who did nothing in the F-Zero games but drive a car, or Fox who only ever piloted a ship. But Wario already has a series of action-platformers. There's no need to just make things up for it. Megaman is the perfect example of how to adapt a character. The way he moves, all of his attacks, 1 to 1 with the games he's from. Why not give Wario the same thing?

That you think I just suddenly thought this and decided it was the pure truth? I'm a long time fan of Wario's games. I feel that they're some of the best I've ever played, and I'm not the only one there. There is currently a 600 page book being written on Wario Land 4, for example. I'm also not the only one who hates the way Sakurai ignored Wario's roots completely in designing his Brawl moveset, and my opinions on it are quite developed. They already changed Pit to fit Kid Icarus Uprising, they replaced Donkey Kong's dash attack of 3 smash games with his traditional roll attack, it seems this time they're more concerned with accurately portraying these characters, and this makes me quite optimistic they'll rethink their approach to Wario as a character.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You seriously just wrote a whole essay without actually explaining what I'm asking for, how would Wario Land Wario work in the context of a fighting game. (You mentioned Project M, but no, the shoulder bash doesn't shape his metagame like the bike did. He's now another Jigglypuff.)

So instead of acknowledging moveset designs, you went on about how YOU think Wario should be represented and how YOU think Brawl Wario is an awful representation because his moveset is original without accounting his personality. I have no idea why you're so fixated on why you want the character to be EXACTLY like what YOU think he should be when his moveset is already perfectly designed to work which is what I've been arguing here. Good job wasting your time writing that and wasting my time reading that.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

You seriously just wrote a whole essay without actually explaining what I'm asking for, how would Wario Land Wario work in the context of a fighting game. (You mentioned Project M, but no, the shoulder bash doesn't shape his metagame like the bike did. He's now another Jigglypuff.)

You have yet to explain why he wouldn't.

So instead of acknowledging moveset designs, you went on about how YOU think Wario should be represented and how YOU think Brawl Wario is an awful representation because his moveset is original without accounting his personality. I have no idea why you're so fixated on why you want the character to be EXACTLY like what YOU think he should be when his moveset is already perfectly designed to work which is what I've been arguing here. Good job wasting your time writing that and wasting my time reading that.

It's not at all perfectly designed. It's made up rather than being an adaptation, and it's not what Super Smash Bros should be, which is what I've been saying. You accused me of taking a stance and defending it without thinking, so I fleshed out my stance and explained to you why I hold it.

 

[HugoBoss]

Still heavily inspired by Warioware, but has more moves that represent WarioLand.

Why can't we have good things and get along?


BTW, if a character based in a collection of mini games could work as a fighter, then a character that is from a platformer (like many of Smash Bros' cast) could just as easily work.

 

[ProjectAngel]

That is awfully basic.

Sometimes simplicity is best.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You have yet to explain why he wouldn't.

It's not on me, it's on you. You claimed Wario Land Wario would be a better fighting game character.

It's not at all perfectly designed. It's made up rather than being an adaptation, and it's not what Super Smash Bros should be, which is what I've been saying. You accused me of taking a stance and defending it without thinking, so I fleshed out my stance and explained to you why I hold it.

It's made up. So? How does it go against his moveset design?

Moveset design means a fighting game moveset that factors in balancing, functionality, practicality, usefulness, etc, for your information. It's NOT how accurate he is to the source material. This is MORE important.

Sometimes simplicity is best.

Brawl Wario a uniquely simplistic playstyle though. A very good kind of simple.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

It's not on me, it's on you. You claimed Wario Land Wario would be a better fighting game character.

No, I said he'd be a better Super Smash Bros character, because it would be a more faithful adaptation of Wario, and you said that the Wario Land mechanics would not work in a fighting game. You have not explained this.

It's made up. So? How does it go against his moveset design?

Moveset design means a fighting game moveset that factors in balancing, functionality, practicality, usefulness, etc, for your information. It's NOT how accurate he is to the source material. This is MORE important.

You can't say that in the context of Super Smash Bros, moveset design heavily includes character animations. That's what makes Super Smash Bros work, it's the Nintendo All-Star fighting game and it's not supposed to be its own thing. Regardless of what you've decided a term means It should be clear what I mean at this point. They can balance anything. They might as well, in doing that, base it on something recognisable and not just make it all up. he could be functionally identical, but with animations that actually pay tribute to the character people love and recognise.

And if they were to change his functionality, a big part of Wario Land's gameplay is stunning enemies and knocking them around, and getting knocked back yourself if you make a mistake. How would that not translate well into Super Smash Bros?

 

[Spinosaurus]

...Eh you know what, we're gonna go back and forth with this. I'm not trying to make enemies here, I just simply disagree with your points, and the pace this argument this going in is only gonna get worse. I think your intentions aren't wrong, but I didn't like the way you presented it. So I'll stop, apologize for my rudeness earlier, and just agree to disagree.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

...Eh you know what, we're gonna go back and forth with this. I'm not trying to make enemies here, I just simply disagree with your points, and the pace this argument this going in is only gonna get worse. I think your intentions aren't wrong, but I didn't like the way you presented it. So I'll stop, apologize for my rudeness earlier, and just agree to disagree.

Alright. No hard feelings, I've been meaning to put together my thoughts on this for a while, sorry to have hit you with such a wall of text.

 

[Backgammon]

I'm just going to throw my thoughts in here. I genuinely hope they don't mess with Wario too much for Sm4sh.
I've been putting a LOT of time into Wario recently and while I appreciate that Wario Land came first (hell, Wario Land 4 is one of my favourite games ever, period), WarioWare just feels a lot better when it comes to representation in a Smash game.

Yes, I agree that Wario Land should be represented a little more somehow, but I don't understand why there's so much hate on his current moveset. I reckon they've done a good job in capturing Wario's personality overall. And really, isn't that what it's all about? Capturing the personality and/or feel of a character in their moveset. They've done it pretty damn well in Brawl's representation.

Onto moveset. As a Wario main, I would hate to see a fair few of his moves changed. Get rid of the bike and you get rid of a lot of his uniqueness and a lot of his game in general. Using Project M as an example, I just... I can't click with that Wario. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but it just doesn't feel like Wario. His characterisation was thrown away for "more Wario Land representation" and it doesn't feel like Wario. In my eyes, Project M Wario is just Fat Mario That Farts.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Onto moveset. As a Wario main, I would hate to see a fair few of his moves changed. Get rid of the bike and you get rid of a lot of his uniqueness and a lot of his game in general. Using Project M as an example, I just... I can't click with that Wario. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but it just doesn't feel like Wario. His characterisation was thrown away for "more Wario Land representation" and it doesn't feel like Wario. In my eyes, Project M Wario is just Fat Mario That Farts.

That's actually what I feel. I wouldn't say Fat Mario, more like a more boring Jigglypuff with his playstyle. He's just really generic there, and I much prefer to use Puff.
I also agree it doesn't really feel like I'm playing as Wario, but I don't really think that kind of argument holds water. Either way, I don't associate Wario with blandness (it goes against his design process that led to his creation), so if he plays blandly then yeah, I don't feel like I'm playing Wario. But whatever.

Project M Wario is a GOOD character to use, but he's so boring.

 

[Weeman]

I think they can make wario represent both wario ware and land properly, it may sound extremely basic but i think his Wario land moves work better for regular melee/smash attacks, his specials work fine and have well synergy with each other, except for his corkscrew, i wish they changed his recovery. I love his acrobatic heavy playstyle and whatever they do with him, i hope they keep his playstyle, it's just so much fun.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Place your bets for tomorrow.

Mario kart 8 is coming out tomorrow in japan.


Will we get...

Information on the blue shell.

Or...

A second character before E3.

 

[Weeman]

Place your bets for tomorrow.

Mario kart 8 is coming out tomorrow in japan.


Will we get...

Information on the blue shell.

Or...

A second character before E3.

Neither apparently :/

 

[Spinosaurus]

There's still tomorrow, right?

...Right?

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

There's still tomorrow, right?

...Right?

Correct the usa version of mario kart 8 if no wario hes probably saved for E3

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'd like to think that since tomorrow is the international release (Japan excluded) for MK8 there's a chance.

I sound way too hopeful and desperate.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I'd like to think that since tomorrow is the international release (Japan excluded) for MK8 there's a chance.

I sound way too hopeful and desperate.

True but remember diddy kong was revealed for the usa version of DKCTF

 

[Spinosaurus]

True but remember diddy kong was revealed for the usa version of DKCTF

I think the difference there was due to bad timing of the direct overlapping TF's japanese release, and the fact that DKCTF is western developed and focused, making sense to reveal Diddy for the western fans. (Plus he IS the only western character in the game haha.)

Wario isn't though, but at the same time, MK is universal.

 

[Luigi#1]

True but remember diddy kong was revealed for the usa version of DKCTF

Thatwas because of Little Mac being revealed on Japan's release.

 

[Backgammon]

Sadly, no Wario today, but we did get some interesting information about how the 3DS is going to handle damage display.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Well, E3 it is.

Dammit. ;____________;

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Ok wario is clearly being saved for E3 mario kart 8 is another worthy game and got nothing.

By the way im headed to walmart today i probably grab myself a copy of mario kart 8.

See some of you smash boarders on the tracks for those that have a wii u.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I have a feeling Wario is going to be unlockable this time around, so I'm not expecting to see anything until launch. Hopefully he'll get a significantly reworked moveset. I was very disappointed with his portrayal in Brawl. His moves made no sense to me, most of them didn't even remotely resemble something you'd see in his games. And what the hell was with the choppy moves? He's not from Game and Watch. Here are a few ideas of what ought to be changed:

Throws: They had two to work with actually, Wario Land and World. They used neither.

(Side) B: Should be the shoulder slam from the Wario Land games, maybe the dash attack or a hybrid of both. Bike makes sense, it can stay. The bite was stupid.

Down B: Ground pound from Wario Land should have been a no brainer. Wario Waft was the laziest thing ever.

Up B: Puffy Wario. They don't have to include every transformation from the Wario Land series, but this one makes the most sense.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Hello?

Warioware? It exists?

 

[Davidreamcatcha]

I actually really love the Waft - sure it's not exactly "in-line" with his portrayal in Land, but it also fits with the quirky animations and playstyle used by WarioWare Wario.

If it were to be replaced, which I doubt, I'd at least want it to be replaced by something as unique. Not another ground pound. Good lord, Yoshi and Bowser are enough.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I actually don't like the Waft because Wario was never depicted as this gross (sure he picked his nose a lot, but he never farted before Brawl. Although there were the poop stickers that came with the manuals from his games in Japan), though I guess it goes with his love for garlic.

If one of his special gets replaced, I'd rather the waft gets to go...but only if he gets something strong enough to compensate losing one of his few reliable KO options. In the end though I don't really mind it at all.

Speaking of, though. There's already four characters who shoulder bash. Samus, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and yes, Wario. Just a thought lol.