Wario Video & Critique Thread -- Diamond City Theater

[B.Mack]

dtilt can be SDI'd, but she's guaranteed dtilt > dsmash unless you have like, TAS DI.

usmash cant be SDI'd out of(except MAYBE by someone like jiggs bcos she doesnt fall back in.)

fastest dsmash in the game, pretty much forces you to recover low.

srsly, dont underestimate this trick.

 

[Lord Chair]

Shouldn't dtilt > grab be guaranteed as well?

 

[B.Mack]

only if you trip iirc.

 

[trytowinthewardude]

Labernash is going to phase X in Dallas tommorow...someone better have a camera... That kid is gonna change the way y'all watch wario matches

 

[Pwneroni]

She forces you to recover low and then.....! What? Grabs the ledge? Honestly I haven't played a really kick-*** Zelda ever (except for Maos from WA). From what I've seen, videos I've watched, and opinions of several other pro smashers, Zelda has a pretty hard time with Wario. She may have a few tricks up her sleeve, but that's what makes her a tough character to use: a few gimmicks but no real "meat" so to speak.

 

[Lord Chair]

Yeah she's annoying because she's low tier and you can't rush her.

Same thing with Ganondorf.

 

[B.Mack]

we cant rush Ganon?

Pwneroni if you cant tell that recovering low is a bad thing then nvm.

 

[Lord Chair]

If you rush Ganon you'll get uaired/pivot grabbed.

You can like, rush him whenever he's in the air. If not you'll have to wait until he makes some inevitable mistake.

 

[Pwneroni]

Wario can recover just fine from below. It's just slightly more risky, but if you airdodge right then you'll be just fine.

Oh and I got owned by Yugo's Lucario this weekend.... normally he's not a problem but he really has been working on his game since we last played! I got waaaay too aggro and got punished with super **** aura in the face. Plus he was really good with tires haha. Vids to come soon.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

She forces you to recover low and then.....! What? Grabs the ledge? Honestly I haven't played a really kick-*** Zelda ever (except for Maos from WA). From what I've seen, videos I've watched, and opinions of several other pro smashers, Zelda has a pretty hard time with Wario. She may have a few tricks up her sleeve, but that's what makes her a tough character to use: a few gimmicks but no real "meat" so to speak.

I think Zelda is a nightmare for any mid level Wario. If you can't take advantage of her weakness you're going to lose. It can be a really hard MU for Zelda and a really annoying one for Wario.

 

[Lord Chair]

However, exploiting her weaknesses is a terribly easy thing to do.

Unless you suck at grabbing landings, in which case you're ****ed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

However, exploiting her weaknesses is a terribly easy thing to do.

Unless you suck at grabbing landings, in which case you're ****ed.

I'm having trouble following what you mean.

 

[Lord Chair]

Her weakness is not being able to cover her landing properly.

Get it?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Her weakness is not being able to cover her landing properly.

Get it?

Umm I guess so. I never thought of that as a weakness for Zelda though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't usually spaz out and run into moves as I do in these videos, but, critique me all the same--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDdB53uNEw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_iTKD1wac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmfzQmWIas

Teach me something new.

 

[Pwneroni]

Haha your Wario is so awesome Reflex! Really cool combos in your game, and great banana play as well! One thing I noticed though is your usage of the hog and it's tires, which I will give you advice on.

Tires are different than most projectiles in the game, and they're pretty similar to ZSS's suit pieces. They roll on the ground, so if you throw it horizontally it will probably roll off the stage (if it doesn't hit the opponent). Tires take a good chunk of effort to get into your hands, so you want to try to make em count! Dthrowing the tire is not only your fastest option on the ground as well as the air, but it also prolongs the life of a tire. They bounce in place if the ground is flat, so on the neutral stages it is a great stage control option. Rather than just throw it at the enemy, dthrowing it (or uthrow, which is a tad bit slower) creates a moving hitbox on the level that you can use to great advantage!

Also on the usage of the bike. When it is on the ground, the same basic rule applies: Dthrowing or Uthrowing the bike is generally more useful than sideways throws. Uthrowing it makes it bounce, creating a DEVASTATING (~15% per bike hit) hitbox on the stage, as well as bouncing the bike multiple times which brings down it's hp. When the bike's hp reaches 0, you get the tires, and Uthrow has the most bounces. Recipe for successs. Dthrowing the bike is really useful too, because the bike travels forward while bouncing. You can dthrow the bike off the edge for edgeguarding, or even use it as a safe approach option!

Experiment with tires if you like being technical, there is TONS of new things with tires just waiting to be explored! I'm just starting to find new things out, it;s really freakin fun and is the next step in Wario: Evolution! :D

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Pwneroni]

Whoa I didn't know that throwing the bike sideways does no damage! That is very good to know!

 

[B.Mack]

go watch Pwneroni's video about tires and mobility for the best ways to take out the bike, break it and get tires...

Whenever you put the bike onstage you wanna break it immediately, you kept ignoring your bike and it cost you that second game I think bcos you opted to recover with UpB, which should be a last resort.

when you pull out the bike after taking an enemy stock, you ALWAYS wanna throw it up. it keeps you safe from the enemy during their invincibility and it could even net you a combo if they run into it after their frames wear off.
I saw you throw the bike forward a few times at an invincible enemy which just doesnt make any sense.

throwing the bike downwards using cstick will make it bounce forwards and can cover approaches amazingly well.


EDIT: Masky the bike bounces do 15% each. Up to 5 bounces on an airborne opponent which nets 75%

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Good and precise playing. The biggest thing I saw that was bad was that after being knocked away, you kept DIing back in and landing next to/near Diddy Kong, but that may have been part of the "spazzing out" you were talking about. Like, landing and spotdodging right next to the enemy at 190% in the 2nd match... probably not a good idea lol. Actually, in general more defensive/less risky play at higher percentages be awesome...

Random stuff: A ledgedropped nair is good for knocking Diddy out of the up-b and gimping him, especially if you abuse the ledge invincibility. And in the 3rd match, if you dthrow someone against a wall (as you did), I BELIEVE that you can do a buffered turn-around grab and it's a combo on many characters.

Also, I noticed you kept throwing the bike sideways. I'm not sure what your intentions exactly were when you were doing that, but if you were trying to break the bike, throwing it sideways does not actually damage it. Only throwing it upwards or downwards causes damage to it, since those throws cause it to bounce. Dunno if you know this or not.

Big Lou didn't seem 100% comfortable with the bananas, but that's because I guess he's not 100% used to Diddy yet. Can't wait to see more of your matches.




I'm pretty sure it only does 12.5%. And tires/bike aren't that good as items... though I guess other people will disagree with me on that, and I even surprise myself sometimes with how well it turns out when I use them in matches.

Yeah; I really don't have much experience with Diddy Kong, so I tried to DI near him to maintain offensive presence, but I didn't realize it would get me more feet to the face. I wasn't in a good mood while playing; a weakness of mine is when I get irritated, I stop thinking and tend to run into moves. A good example is toward the end of that match on Yoshi's Island, where I get D-Smash'd at low percents, and then just float into another D-Smash. Just a little rage that I need to get over.

I've seen the sourspot N-Air hit Diddy out of Up-B. Does that work every time, so long as the hitbox is out? Also, I'll be sure to try that re-grab on a wall next time, thanks.

I do know how the weak sideways throw doesn't hurt the bike; some of it is potential prediction, and some of it is for positioning. Throwing the bike on a platform creates hitlag if the opponent attacks from below, thus sometimes making him more punishable. Miniscule, I know, but, I'm still testing things. Also, if the opponent respawns and walks toward me, a sideways throw can sometimes hit people before they can react (which doesn't do damage due to invincibility, but creates interesting situations with bouncing bike), because they're used to seeing it bounce via D-Throw. D-Throw would probably be better overall, though, in that situation.

Yeah, BigLou is still working on his Diddy stuff. He's gonna get better in time.

I'll try to work on my tire mix-ups, too, Pwneroni. I do believe there's much potential in them. As an aside, can someone tell me how I'm supposed to use tires against Dedede?

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I don't usually spaz out and run into moves as I do in these videos, but, critique me all the same--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDdB53uNEw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_iTKD1wac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmfzQmWIas

Teach me something new.

I enjoyed them! Rainbow Cruise is my worst nightmare...

 

[Dynomite]

I don't usually spaz out and run into moves as I do in these videos, but, critique me all the same--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDdB53uNEw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN_iTKD1wac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmfzQmWIas

Teach me something new.

First vid: 2:13, i dont understand what you were trying to accomplish throwing the bike at lounis while he was invincible. I, personally, throw the bike up Right after the ledge crash and hop on the ledge. It wastes invincibility and might hit them while bouncing. Also, you can use it to your advantage to get away knowing it wont hit you but it will hit them.

4:02: I know you were trying to get the bike off the stage, but you got punished while doing it. If you jump and input side B you would have got on the bike while in the air therefor not getting punished.
^ just an option. You might have had a plan idk.

Updated the vids.

 

[Pwneroni]

As an aside, can someone tell me how I'm supposed to use tires against Dedede?

I'll give you a few instances where tires would be handy.

1. Jump and dthrow tire in front of D3, attack him from behind. Basically creates a "D3 sandwich" between you and the tire. If you attack and hit him (my favorite move in this situation is either Uair or Nair), he will get hit by the tire for an extra chunk of damage, which you can possibly follow up with another hit. If blocked, he will be pushed into the tire and acquire more shield stun, effectively letting you escape scot free. Use tires as a safer way to approach and poke on shields!

2. Use tires for stage control. Jump and Dthrow the tire in the air, but don't hit D3 with it. Use it for zoning and stage control, as you have a LOT more range when you have a tire near you! Let's say D3 does a Ftilt for some reason, and you're in the air near him. Normally without a tire, you couldn't really punish him in time before his Ftilt ends. With a tire, you can throw it at him, and the stun will be enough for you to move in with a follow up (Uair, Nair, Waft are my favorites). Tires give you a devastating punishing option!

3. When D3 throws a Waddle Dee, he has a lot of lag. You can throw your tire at the same time he does his side b, he will get hit with a tire and you can shield the Waddle Dee. Using tires as a conventional projectile works too!

Just think of Diddy Kong's bananas. To use them most effectively, they must be thrown with a purpose in mind. Zoning, trapping and poking are all great uses for tires. Not great uses include just throwing the tire at the opponent from far away. Very easy to simply shield, and the tire disappears on shields.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Pwneroni]

vs ROB
Pwneroni vs t0mmy [January 2011]

vs Diddy
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 1 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 2 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 3 [January 2011]

vs Lucario
Pwneroni vs Yugo 1 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Yugo 2 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Yugo 3 [January 2011]

Critique would be nice, especially the Lucario matches. I know I was too aggressive and just kinda jumped into a lot of stuff :/ oh well I learned for next time!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

vs ROB
Pwneroni vs t0mmy [January 2011]

vs Diddy
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 1 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 2 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Thrillagorilla 3 [January 2011]

vs Lucario
Pwneroni vs Yugo 1 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Yugo 2 [January 2011]
Pwneroni vs Yugo 3 [January 2011]

Critique would be nice, especially the Lucario matches. I know I was too aggressive and just kinda jumped into a lot of stuff :/ oh well I learned for next time!

I'd relax on the dair.

 

[Pwneroni]

You mean not use it as much? Or relax on running into every Lucario dair xD

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I think I'd prefer more Nair than Bair. It seems more players expect the Bair off Wario.

 

[SnackAttack]

I think I'd prefer more Nair than Bair. It seems more players expect the Bair off Wario.

Which would be odd, because Nair is so amazing. It should definitely be a big part of your game. Bair is more of a spacing aerial IMO.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You mean not use it as much? Or relax on running into every Lucario dair xD

Use it less.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Which would be odd, because Nair is so amazing. It should definitely be a big part of your game. Bair is more of a spacing aerial IMO.

That is what I also considered while playing as Wario then watching matches with Wario. There was an old video of a good R.O.B. that was good on punishing Wario's Bair. Although at the same time if I remember right that Wario didn't use a single Nair.

 

[B.Mack]

lol wtf am I the only one that noticed that Pwneroni goes for the platform drop uair waaay too much. also wasnt using safe farts... just throwing them out sometimes...

 

[Dynomite]

Farts are hard to land.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Farts are hard to land.

Only as hard as it is to land a Jab or D-Tilt. Easier, even, since you can jump with it. Practice!

 

[B.Mack]

every situation where you could land a uair, dair, bair, jab, fsmash, utilt, dsmash... you can land a fart.

didnt mention dtilt or ftilt because they actually have more range than fart. didnt mention nair and fair because of mobility issues and those moves are both faster than fart.

Aside from that, half waft comes out on frame 6, faster than everything but dtilt, dash attack, nair and fair.

Outranges everything but dtilt and ftilt (and fsmash?)

farts are only difficult to land against someone like MK who is framesafe. every other character has some pivotal moments when you can land a fart. you just have to look out for them.

Marth: whiffs an UpB at 70%? you arent gonna kill him with a fully charged fsmash anyway, and it would only hit if he lands like a moron. fart.

Snake: is in the air? just jump with him and bait the airdodge and fart or bait the aerial and punish his landing lag with a fart.

MK: whiffs an UpB, uair is actually your best bet bcos you dont wanna risk eating a glide attack. punishing nado landings is tough, but its one of the only ways. farting a nado edge is too difficult to be consistent with but its another thought... like I said. not many opportunities to waft a framesafe character.

Diddy Kong: recovery is super predictable. fart him out of sideB bcos you know he wont diddy kick as that costs him his UpB. if they are close enough to sideB onto stage, they will diddy kick 9 times out of 10. a simple spotdodge or shield will guarantee you a fart on the landing lag of diddy flip kick which is actually quite easy to punish. naners and glidetossing also makes it easier to land farts and fsmashes. aprt from when diddy is recovering, theres really no other time I would say you can guarantee a fart. similar to MK.

Falco(goddamn lasers): punish his landing lag on SideB... I cant really think of any other guaranteed farts lmao.


For Falco and Diddy they have predictable recoveries so just gimp them or force them into farts when they are offstage and you know they have no options.

COME ON GUYS! we should be landing farts all the time! I'm not saying I land farts amazingly consistently... but I just think we all need to do more to land 'em.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I haven't had trouble getting people with Wario Waft. It find it it is easier to hit players with it if you use it before Wario starts flashing brown when it is fully charge.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Half Waft comes out on frame 5.

 

[Lord Chair]

lol wtf am I the only one that noticed that Pwneroni goes for the platform drop uair waaay too much.

I noted that some weeks ago, really.

every situation where you could land a uair, dair, bair, jab, fsmash, utilt, dsmash... you can land a fart.

Uh no. We've been through that before. Not being able to fastfall farts, as well as it canceling your momentum means it's more difficult to land them than aerials. I'd also like to note once more that fart really doesn't have that much horizontal range.

didnt mention dtilt or ftilt because they actually have more range than fart. didnt mention nair and fair because of mobility issues and those moves are both faster than fart.

Fair and fart both come out at frame 5

Aside from that, half waft comes out on frame 6, faster than everything but dtilt, dash attack, nair and fair.

Again, frame 5

Outranges everything but dtilt and ftilt (and fsmash?)

Probably jab, too. Canceled momentum also sorta reduces it's effective range.

farts are only difficult to land against someone like MK who is framesafe. every other character has some pivotal moments when you can land a fart. you just have to look out for them.

Even MK has those pivotal moments when offstage. That put aside, those situations aren't practically enforceable in every MU (matches against Falco, for example, can last a really long time without really being able to get a fart in, not until you make a hard read).

Marth: whiffs an UpB at 70%? you arent gonna kill him with a fully charged fsmash anyway, and it would only hit if he lands like a moron. fart.

This, for one, is a really unrealistic situation.

Snake: is in the air? just jump with him and bait the airdodge and fart or bait the aerial and punish his landing lag with a fart.

MK: whiffs an UpB, uair is actually your best bet bcos you dont wanna risk eating a glide attack. punishing nado landings is tough, but its one of the only ways. farting a nado edge is too difficult to be consistent with but its another thought... like I said. not many opportunities to waft a framesafe character.

UpB on shield means guaranteed fart... why the **** would you be afraid of messing up. Just learn the timing, it's not that hard.

Diddy Kong: recovery is super predictable. fart him out of sideB bcos you know he wont diddy kick as that costs him his UpB. if they are close enough to sideB onto stage, they will diddy kick 9 times out of 10. a simple spotdodge or shield will guarantee you a fart on the landing lag of diddy flip kick which is actually quite easy to punish. naners and glidetossing also makes it easier to land farts and fsmashes. aprt from when diddy is recovering, theres really no other time I would say you can guarantee a fart. similar to MK.

LOL WTF NO WRONG WRONG WRONG
Seriously though, Monkey Flipping back on-stage is terrible and really used at low level play (yeah, implying a lot here). It's rather practical to juggle Diddy, usual juggle RPS applies there.

Falco(goddamn lasers): punish his landing lag on SideB... I cant really think of any other guaranteed farts lmao.

Juggle trap also applies...

For Falco and Diddy they have predictable recoveries so just gimp them or force them into farts when they are offstage and you know they have no options.

Can't force Falco into a fart unless you take his DJ. Can't really gimp Diddy unless you take his DJ.

Can't really fart Diddy unless you take his DJ.

COME ON GUYS! we should be landing farts all the time! I'm not saying I land farts amazingly consistently... but I just think we all need to do more to land 'em.

Rest in bold, have a nice day.

 

[Pwneroni]

Yeah I've kinda been slackin on farts as of late haha. I think it's because I've been trying to focus on tires so much, but a lot of the time when I use down B, it's like not even charged to half yet! :/ thanks for bringing that up Baron Mack, I definitely gotta step my game up in that area.

Oh and I don't really know what you guys are talking about when you say you "can't fastfall a fart". That's why you fastfall THEN fart dude!

And on platform drop Uairs..... yeah I love em haha xD I am starting to like platform drop Nairs though, if you do it quickly then the Nair hits the opponent on the platform, and it's almost twice as fast as Uair (frame 5 instead of frame 9).

A really cool thing I like doing now is platform dropping from the top platform on Battlefield. Doing a Dair from up there is pretty good, and throwing a tire downwards is great for approaching from above, especially if you land the tire next to them and hit them into it. Either a combo for good damage, or it gives them shield stun so you can get away safely.

 

[Lord Chair]

There'd be no point in mixing up your excessive habit to platform drop uair with platform drop nairs, they're still countered in the same way: shieldgrab.