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Wario Q&A Thread
- Thread starter ssbbFICTION
- Start date
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Tires work against Snake, they just don't counter nade camping. They work really well if you are already somewhat in control of the situation, but they don't necessarily open up for that control.
Thing is, nades don't have a set trajectory while tires do and a nade being practically anywhere in a tire's trajectory will cancel it out. Nades are produced far easier and quicker than tires, and having a tire in hand makes dealing with nades more frustrating than necessary.
You get your bike out in this matchup in 2 ways: either Snake has to recover really high and you don't have much better things to do than taking out your bike or your bike ends up on the stage after you recover high yourself. Getting the tires is not necessarily difficult or risky this way, since there's no actual interaction with Snake involved.
You can try just randomly hopping on your bike and breaking it, but you're not really getting anywhere with that because you're just challenging a nade game for a meager tradeoff: the tires won't get you anywhere.
Also note that Snake's standard option selects are inherently strong against tire approaches. You won't catch his jump frames or aerial startups with tires because he won't really commit to those things the way other characters would. Your own defensive options are really limited with tire in hand because your item throws are slow as hell and don't really give you a whole lot of new options. You can punish tilts on shield but Snake doesn't have to commit to that since you're a sitting duck shielding with a tire in the first place.
As noted, if Snake is in a bad position tires work wonders against him. Tires cover his landing options really well and he doesn't have strong counterplay against simply tire throws when he's aerial, there's a lot of frame traps you can exploit if you're the one with stage control.
Another not entirely relevant statement I'd like to make is that there's no way to speed up the Snake MU. Tires won't contribute to it, I dare say that effectively using tires against Snake the way I mentioned it would make the MU even slower than it would already be without them. Don't try to make the MU more fun because it will never be fun, it will never be fast and attempts at making it faster will probably fail for years to come. If you want to spend time trying to make it faster regardless be my guest, but I'd say your time could be used more wisely. Investing time and effort into overcomplicating a fairly easy MU is, imo, not the way to go.
Thing is, nades don't have a set trajectory while tires do and a nade being practically anywhere in a tire's trajectory will cancel it out. Nades are produced far easier and quicker than tires, and having a tire in hand makes dealing with nades more frustrating than necessary.
You get your bike out in this matchup in 2 ways: either Snake has to recover really high and you don't have much better things to do than taking out your bike or your bike ends up on the stage after you recover high yourself. Getting the tires is not necessarily difficult or risky this way, since there's no actual interaction with Snake involved.
You can try just randomly hopping on your bike and breaking it, but you're not really getting anywhere with that because you're just challenging a nade game for a meager tradeoff: the tires won't get you anywhere.
Also note that Snake's standard option selects are inherently strong against tire approaches. You won't catch his jump frames or aerial startups with tires because he won't really commit to those things the way other characters would. Your own defensive options are really limited with tire in hand because your item throws are slow as hell and don't really give you a whole lot of new options. You can punish tilts on shield but Snake doesn't have to commit to that since you're a sitting duck shielding with a tire in the first place.
As noted, if Snake is in a bad position tires work wonders against him. Tires cover his landing options really well and he doesn't have strong counterplay against simply tire throws when he's aerial, there's a lot of frame traps you can exploit if you're the one with stage control.
Another not entirely relevant statement I'd like to make is that there's no way to speed up the Snake MU. Tires won't contribute to it, I dare say that effectively using tires against Snake the way I mentioned it would make the MU even slower than it would already be without them. Don't try to make the MU more fun because it will never be fun, it will never be fast and attempts at making it faster will probably fail for years to come. If you want to spend time trying to make it faster regardless be my guest, but I'd say your time could be used more wisely. Investing time and effort into overcomplicating a fairly easy MU is, imo, not the way to go.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
You're blowing my statement out of proportion lmao. And though I didn't ask specially about whether tires can combat grenades, I did ask about how to beat the tactic. Why would I not want elaboration on this subject if I took the time to ask the question to begin with. I still think that just dropping a one liner isn't too helpful so I can't really see how that is a legitimate answer. Also never said you were being a ***** about something. If I thought you were intentionally being a ****, you would have been called out lol. But honestly, I didn't come here to get into some stupid internet argument. If you want to answer, I would appreciate it. If not, no worries.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
WHY NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER CHUM
People these days...
NOTE: I already gave you an answer. If you can't bother reading the thread then don't ask questions.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,674
I don't even use tires on Snake. Snake's projectile, unlike Faclo's projectile, can be altogether avoided. What makes slow MU's fun is, if you camp really hard, the other person will probobly get frusturated. I find that matchs where I slow down and either goes to time or only a minute left, I win. If I don't slow down enough and the match takes 4 minutes, I lose. If you camp Snake, he'll work harder to hit you with a nade and open himself up. Just poke him around, bite the cypher, and WIN.
In other words, try going Wario. Not only do you need to know details of the MU, but it takes more MU experience. You gotta lose Snake if you want to beat Snake, haha!
BPx
Smash Lord
fsmash him when hes falling into the ground, charge it for bonus kills. ez
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Fsmash doesn't have the range to counter B reversals and the timing for it to beat bair is really strict.
It also doesn't strictly beat him landing with a nade in hand.
tl;dr charging fsmash requires a hard read and is therefor not ez.
It also doesn't strictly beat him landing with a nade in hand.
tl;dr charging fsmash requires a hard read and is therefor not ez.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
dtilt doesnt beat any option aside of blatantly obvious airdodges
every time you manage to get a dtilt you wouldve been better off fsmashing
every time you manage to get a dtilt you wouldve been better off fsmashing
BPx
Smash Lord
when he lands with grenade in hand you do almost twice as much damage as he does to you, i'd say thats a win. though technically you're always right, chair 
i'm just saying that cause the local snake here air dodges to the ground or lands with nade wayyyyyyy too much. what frame does snakes bair come out on?
i'm just saying that cause the local snake here air dodges to the ground or lands with nade wayyyyyyy too much. what frame does snakes bair come out on?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
yeah my bad fsmashing him with a nade does win
snakes bair is frame 10
also note that sometimes its preferable to use something to hit him without hitting his nade if that means getting him offstage without a DJ, think of nair/strongfair OoS
snakes bair is frame 10
also note that sometimes its preferable to use something to hit him without hitting his nade if that means getting him offstage without a DJ, think of nair/strongfair OoS
GOL | 482 | JSalt
The Folse Deity
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
No, I actually legitimately did not see a wall of text before I typed my last statement. Either it wasn't there before or I was half asleep...lol Otherwise, I wouldve just said thanks. So thanks.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
More random Wario questions!
What characters are safe to FF nair>attack against?
When do you guys find it safe to DACUS? I don't have any practice using DACUS, so I'm inclined to never use it with both Wario and Jiggs.
The last 2 are open to anyone, but mostly aimed at Reflex:
Is Wario's nair similar to Squirtle's in terms of utility?
Do you guys ever like to gimp characters with Wario's dsmash (like Squirtle can do)?
What characters are safe to FF nair>attack against?
When do you guys find it safe to DACUS? I don't have any practice using DACUS, so I'm inclined to never use it with both Wario and Jiggs.
The last 2 are open to anyone, but mostly aimed at Reflex:
Is Wario's nair similar to Squirtle's in terms of utility?
Do you guys ever like to gimp characters with Wario's dsmash (like Squirtle can do)?
slikvik
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Iq_FtCyc8 how do you do 6:42
Lord Chair
Smash Master
You don't really get the optimal advantage out of a short hop on nair. You'd really need to try that stuff against characters like Snake (buffered turnaround jab cannot be used to punish nair on shield). Diddy doesn't have a lot of counterplay against it either, it's really just a matter of judging how well a character's OoS game is.
Dsmash' optimal use is using it as a guaranteed punish if an opponent decides to recover from the ledge using an aerial on your shield. If you ever play a (terrible) Marth who just does ledgehop, unfastfalled fair on your shield, you can just shielddrop dsmash for a pretty much guaranteed gimp. Catching landings with it is usually meh because you're exploiting a hard read with something that does mediocre damage (compared to other options) and doesn't really net you any sort of followup.
Kind of. Wario has much better horizontal aerial mobility overall (due to his acceleration) and his N-Air has better range, but Squirtle can autocancel it from a shorthop, has a much better ground game out of it (better grab range, frame 1 Jab, stupid F-Tilt, faster walk speed), and sets up for more dangerous stuff overall (a Squirtle juggle deals more damage than a Wario juggle on average, and sourspot N-Air can lead to a Jab lock or a grab/U-Smash on a read tech, depending on their percent). I guess they're pretty similar as far as how they're used, though. With Wario, you have the luxury of moving away if you don't like the situation. With Squirtle, you have to commit, but you have more options to choose from for keeping yourself safe, and it ends more quickly.
Eh...I need to use Wario D-Smash less. It only hits on one side at any given point and doesn't do as much damage as most other punishes. I maintain that its usefulness remains in how it makes a somewhat strong punish that doesn't lose to spotdodge. Covering multiple options is always nice. As far as using it near the ledge, Wario's D-Smash doesn't have enough range to make itself very useful for gimping. Wario's F-Tilt is much, much better for ledgeguarding. That said, you -can- use it to stop get-up attacks and punish some ledge rolls in a similar manner, but you have to put your body really close to the ledge, meaning that if you miss, you're getting punished for it. If you're pretty sure the opponent is going to get off the ledge at that instant, and that a punish wouldn't be too severe (I use it against Diddy sometimes, as an example), it works well, but it's something you either hit with or get punished for, unlike Squirtle's.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Sweet, those answers were a REALLY big help, Chair and Reflex. Thanks!
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2010
- Messages
- 4,371
Does anyone know where I can find Wario's item throw frame data?
Throwing an item down is alright; definitely his only throw with any real speed.
BPx
Smash Lord
also the easiest to fart/clap out of
vs most characters it should not be safe. Nair on shield is only really safe if you land behind someone with it. It's also hard to put yourself into a position low enough to Nair on their shield safely. You can Nair the top/middle of their shield somewhat easy, but delaying it further is much harder to safely do. If you do get low enough to Nair safely, again from behind is the safest. A lot of characters can shield grab or force you to spotdodge instantly to avoid the counter attack, which leaves you open still.
The amount of time/inputs to get out is the same at all percents, so, unless the opponent has a horrible recovery, has reason to panic, and/or you're -way- past KO percents and just looking to do any extra damage before dying, no.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2010
- Messages
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You don't REALLY have to kill yourself. Sometimes, some chumps like to stand by the ledge when your offstage. Even jump to you. I like to bite, don't chew, and fall. Once he breaks out, bike! I do it pretty often. It probobly won't kill them unless you happen to footstool them, but, they sure do poop themselves.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
The enemy can move earlier than Wario can and is the one who decides when to break free. Bitecides are realistically never guaranteed.
PieDisliker
Smash Lord
Isn't it guarunteed if you bite them while closer to the blastzone?
GOL | 482 | JSalt
The Folse Deity
For bitecide, if they're at high %, why don't you mash too so you stage spike them? Would work well against someone with bad horizontal movement/recovery.
For fast-falling aerials on shield, fair would have the bad landing lag, nair would be ok only if they don't have something quick enough, as well as what DMG said. Upair has good pushback, but can be shieldgrabbed as well. To sum it up, DMG's post explains just about any aerial: It's better doing so behind your opponent. If you HAVE to land in front like that, you might as well bite or airdodge to buffer something.
For fast-falling aerials on shield, fair would have the bad landing lag, nair would be ok only if they don't have something quick enough, as well as what DMG said. Upair has good pushback, but can be shieldgrabbed as well. To sum it up, DMG's post explains just about any aerial: It's better doing so behind your opponent. If you HAVE to land in front like that, you might as well bite or airdodge to buffer something.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
There's this thing called vertical spacing, too.
Labernash
Smash Lord
- Joined
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- 1,674
Well, sometimes I've taken a Yoshi off stage with a Bite, Yoshi broke out near the blast zone, I died, Yoshi couldn't recover, Yoshi died. Sometimes, Yoshi will mash at the wrong time, go up under the stage, try and double jump, and bonk his head lolololol. Usually when I Bite people, they start mashing. Or they don't do anything, frozen in the stench of garlic and SHAME.
If they mash, and you keep chomping, then it could stage spike. Buuuuut, like Chair said, they decide where to get out. If they panic and mash, which usually happens, then a stage spike is actually fairly common. It's happened to me on several occasions. But, if they just don't mash at all, then you just fall low.
If you weave back, and don't fast fall really, you won't get shield grabbed. If you're talking fast falling it straight down, hitting their shield and landing next to them, that's a bad idea unless their beside the ledge.
'Splain.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
It means inputting a full hop and using all the liberties it gives combined with fair.
Wait are you saying I can chew on them to make them release sooner or is it just to scare them into mashing?