Walk-in Closet (Refurbished)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

why isn't his analogy correct? just wondering...

you do not develop a startegy for using a lantern or a flashlight. The impression I got from "StZ" is you RELY on shiek to rack up damage and then RELY on Zelda to KO. this means, if you can;t transform, half of your strategy is out the window.

 

[DanGR]

you do not develop a startegy for using a lantern or a flashlight. The impression I got from "StZ" is you RELY on shiek to rack up damage and then RELY on Zelda to KO. this means, if you can;t transform, half of your strategy is out the window.

well explained.

 

[imdavid]

god sonic, way to beat a dead horse, it seems like you were battling yourself the whole entire thread creating a lot of clutter and unnecessary posts instead of information to help us with the match ups, now go back and edit all your posts and make them useful xD start with pit for that matter xD

Anyways... Pits are very much a disadvantage to play against sheiks a bit easier as zelda. Against a campy pit you have to literally duck and weave around those arrows as you crawl and aerial dodge like a crazy guy with sheik and when you finally reach the pit player... they have a fsmash waiting that out prioritizes all of your moves... very comforting no? However, If you close in on the pit and have a close combat battle, the pit has a very annoying neutral a combo as well as a his equally if not more annoying side b. You can't really roll around them... spot dodging doesn't help.. and needles don't work for one of them.... so as sheik you're more or less screwed!

If you put in the effort... get close enough to the pit, dodged a fsmash and countered with an ftilt etc, you can get pit in a good combo because he's so floaty, problem is chasing after the guy in the air is a problem because of the no start up lag on any of them, he'll punish you if you try that shtuff. But play smart, shield grab wisely, and you can get a pit from 0-60+% in one go with the help of ftilts. Now for finishing a pit, do a KDJ style ledge guarding with dropped off bairs and fairs from the ledge, needles and you should be able to gimp his b up once or twice in a 3 stock game.

Zelda on the other hand, can reflect those **** arrows with NL and keep the pit from spamming them and acting smarter... but don't do it too much or he'll just wait for NL to end and getcha... with a good counter approach, you should be able to bring pit up close enough for close combat where zelda ironically does better. Even though pits moves come out way faster, zelda has further range on her smashes and a wider area of a disjointed hit box which allows her to hit past the annoying side b and a combo. In addition to spamming dins when the pit is off stage, zelda probably is the wiser choice because she has greater control of the match than sheik does

just speculation, if a better zelda play comes with better advice, i'd love to have it

 

[Tsuteto]

This thread has just officially gone way over my head with the novel size posts.

But I did catch one thing, and I need to ask... why they HELL would you switch to Zelda against Fox? If it's for fun I can understand, but in a tourney, cheap shot the *******! After he's above 20 you can f-tilt lock him, get him to around 110, and do a usmash and destory him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This thread has just officially gone way over my head with the novel size posts.

But I did catch one thing, and I need to ask... why they HELL would you switch to Zelda against Fox? If it's for fun I can understand, but in a tourney, cheap shot the *******! After he's above 20 you can f-tilt lock him, get him to around 110, and do a usmash and destory him.

once he's at above 90%, you can'y really Ftilt lock him. with the exception of Ftilit locking, In my experience, Zelda is better against fox than shiek is. So, if you miss your attempt to KO after you Ftilt lock and his damage becomes too high, zelda fares better. That's the only way you'd switch there.

 

[Tsuteto]

If they can DI perfectly, they'll survive a second longer, but all you have to do is do one more f-tilt when they're near, then follow up with upsmash, and they're gone. I've done it a few times and it has yet to fail me.

But yes, with the exception, I'd prefer fighting with Zelda over Sheik. Mainly because I know how to use Zelda better, but that's aside from the point XD For Wolf I do know that doing a jump -> Din's Fire -> explode early (or on if you can, but there's a chance of the reflector) -> Nayruu's Love works fairly well. Hell, Nayruu's Love just works overall against Wolf as long as you don't become predictable.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm sorry Tsuteto, skip the novels. just look for the posts about whether to use Sheik, Zelda, or StZ, not the ones where I have to defend the thread itself.

As for the Fox matchup, yeah, I think once he's at those high percents it's really hard to pull off Ftilt-Upsmash, because the Ftilts knock him up high enough that he can jump away.

If I'm wrong about how high the Ftilts knock him up (by vid or other opinion), then the matchup will be changed to Sheik.

 

[popsofctown]

My post was written during the one directly above it.

Since you claim to have done Ftilt-> Death several times, I'll drop in a dispute in the opening post, until i hear more about Ftilt->Death. If it is good and consistent, then this is certainly a Sheik matchup.

 

[Tsuteto]

If I can, I'll get matches of me doing it. Chances are it'll be replays that I can send to you. But seriously, if you do like, three dtilts while he's at zero, then follow up with multiple ftilts (which it looks way sexual), then he'll eventually be popped just high enough to get hit by an upsmash for straight up.

 

[rageagainst]

you seem to overuse Shiek then Zelda too much, when just Zelda would be so much better (also because changing safely is very situational)

Bowser is definately Zelda all they way, infact any char thats big and slow (and sitting ducks for the fair/bair, and sometimes dair) should be just Zelda This includes, Bowser, Ganon, and Donkey Kong (he gets ripped apart by Zelda's Dair). The exception may be Dedede, Sheik seems to get through his spam easier than Zelda, yet he's so big, he's almost as easy as bowser to kill with kicks, so i'll leave that as undecided.

Though Sheik then Zelda IS a good plan, since being able to rack damage up fast and kill with the same character seems godlike, the thing that balances it out is the transform time There are very few ways to do this safely and it is all situational. Because of this, even though Sheik to Zelda is an awesome choice, its probably much safer to just choose one since you don't know if you'll be able to change or not. When I need to choose only one char, I usually choose Zelda, since she can rack up damage and kill (with the exception of matches that are usually horrible for Zelda, like Lucas)

@imdavid

no Sheik generally fares better against Pit than Zelda, any decent pit will jump and shoot, or bend arrows, so that makes NL worse than a shield because it won't reflect back at him. However, its not the end of the world, I've found the arrows are negated almost completely with advancing powershields (takes practice but VERY useful against campers), though this forces you to approach, and sheik generally has better approaches, so I would say Sheik has a slight upper hand on this against Zelda and thus you should use Sheik against Pit

Back @popsofctown

let me go over the changes I would make to your list, and I'll add what char you should use when only using one char, when you think you can't pull off StZ on an opponent: (I won't list people I'm not changing)

Bowser: Zelda definitely
Cfalcon: Zelda (the reason I'll put Zelda to any char with weak/no projectiles is because they are forced to apporach Zelda, who has one of the best defence games in SBB)
Diddy Kong: Zelda
Donkey Kong: Zelda
Falco: Sheik, she is definitely better at killing space animals then Zelda
Fox: Sheik
Ganon: Zelda
Ike: Zelda
King Dedede: undecided (both have their strengths and weaknesses), probably StZ is good
Link: StZ, or Zelda (Shiek and Zelda are both equally ish good against Link, yet this is a character with a horrible approach who must rely on spam, and Zelda's spam is better, forcing him to approach, giving Zelda a slight edge over Sheik)
Luigi: StZ, or Zelda
Mario: StZ, or Zelda
Marth: Zelda, (lacks projectiles, and also an unusually large target for fair/bair for his light weight)
MetaKnight: StZ, or ???? (can't yet say who has the upper hand against MK)
Peach: StZ, or Zelda
Pit: Sheik (I've explained above)
Samus: StZ, or Zelda? (not sure who has the upper hand in this one)
Toon Link:StZ, or Sheik?
Wario: StZ, or Zelda (fat, no projectile, slow, done)

thats all I have so far, let me lurk some moar for info on all the ?s

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Have any of you naysayers actually tried Transforming without being stupid about it?

 

[popsofctown]

maybe one of them.

There's lots of things about Pit that really go both ways. To be sure, Nayru's Love doesn't come close to taking his projectile out of the game. He floats in the air, which makes him easy to lightning kick.. but that makes him easy to bair with sheik as well, right?
We'll talk about Pit some more.

I want to take a moment to remind everyone the list is still pretty soft, just because something's up right now doesn't mean it's permanent, or that it even went up there with any thought put into it.

@rageagainst: you are just one person, so I'm not going to put up every item from your list, and take away the question marks. I'll put up the ones you had some strong reasons for.
@Tsutseto: if you get even one video, i'll feel good about switching it to Sheik.

 

[Aeyr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F82clXzuxTo
is this good enough for the shiek vs fox debate? O-o

 

[DanGR]

strange...

(now I'm filling up this post with characters b/c it was too short...aifgiabgprbobuivbahv)

 

[popsofctown]

Sheik should be used against wolf, fox, and falco, and the case is closed.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Have any of you naysayers actually tried Transforming without being stupid about it?

yes. And, quite simply, it's rarely worth it. It doesn;t give a significant edge over choosing the more advantaged individual character and requires some set up.

also, if Zelda is the better matchup and you attempt StZ and can;t find a chance to transform, then you are putting yorself at a disadvantage just because you wanted to transform

 

[Ryazan]

I'd just like to point out that there is no listing for Sheik on the matchups.

 

[popsofctown]

thank you kind Pit mainer

 

[imdavid]

lawl yes pit mainer ^^ haha yah the curvy arrows make me mad because you can't reflect em i tend to do equally well/bad against pits but sometimes zelda's extra range on her smashes save me quite a bit *shugs*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Plus side: if it comes to trading projectiles, I'm completely fine with taking a Palutena's arrow to the face if it means landing a Din's Fire on Pit.

 

[popsofctown]

what are the exact numbers on that trade? like 10% against 7% fresh... is that about right? but Din's has more knock back. And when Pit's arrow hits Zelda while she's controlling Din's, she's no longer responsible for the after lag of the move. So that can be a pretty good advantage. Pit can shield the Din's if he's far from you though, there's a golden range.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what are the exact numbers on that trade? like 10% against 7% fresh... is that about right? but Din's has more knock back. And when Pit's arrow hits Zelda while she's controlling Din's, she's no longer responsible for the after lag of the move. So that can be a pretty good advantage. Pit can shield the Din's if he's far from you though, there's a golden range.

Din's is somewhere between 15%-20% fresh. I'm not sure of the exact number off of the top of my head, but Pit's arrow is probably lucky to be 1/3 the power

 

[popsofctown]

no sirree.

Din's increases power according to range. It starts at 8%, and grows to 16%. It's 16% at the very end of it's range, for a Pit to trade an arrow for a fully ranged Din's Fire would require a mistake on his part. If he caught you early in Din's, he'll shield the blaze, if he saw it happening too late, he should shield instead of trading at that point.

 

[Ryazan]

Use Sheik then Zelda against Pit. Any Pit skilled at Arrow Looping will totally screw Zelda over if she tries to reflect it. Sheik's needles win against Pit's arrows in a spam fight. Pit's recovery nullifies Zelda's kill moves at first. What you should do is start as Sheik, and keep Pit from approaching with your needles. Do not try to approach if he is low-damage. When his damage is at around 75-85%, get up to him (if he fires arrows roll forward right before they hit), combo, and knock him away long enough to transform. If he is recovering above you, move so you are at an angle from him, use Fair or Bair if he is not using WoI and use Din's if he is. If he is off the edge, a good Pit will most likely glide into a glide attack. Use a well-timed Fsmash or, if he is using WoI, Din's. If he flies under the stage, launch a Din's in his direction to intercept. If he is on the stage, most of Zelda's kill moves will suffice by this time.

 

[TheFast]

ganondorf should be either because it doesn't matter who you use lol
but in seriousness gannondorf is zelda because she can do damage on to him due to his lack of speed and sheik actualy is at a disadvantage because the only way to do ZtS is to get them far enough away to change without punishment and by the time you do that you could of already killed him with zelda he has no def against dins fire and slow dodges that if zelda does it right she can punish him for it also when fighting gannondorf u wanna fishish him fast because leaving him at high damages just leave him to do rack up a good amount of damage on u (all he needs to do is jab.....) all around zelda is a better pick for gannon

 

[popsofctown]

well, that sounded really, really convincing to me. So i'm putting StZ down.

 

[Ryazan]

Immediately after I posted that, I realized I probably just destroyed my clan, which is in a clan war with both a Zelda clan and a Sheik clan. *facepalm*

 

[DanGR]

You can still edit and erase the evidence. Hurry!

 

[popsofctown]

hm... so you're saying you DON'T want a special thanks section in the opening post?

if your clan rejects you, we will accept you. you can come into our loving arms, whether or not you main pit, because you tell us about lovely things like foiling Nayru's love with arrow loops.

 

[imdavid]

uhh... i'm pretty sure that those arrows beat the needles flat out.. they do more damage and come out faster and have better stun it seems to me... DON'T GO TO AN ARROW FIGHT WITH NEEDLES XD haha

 

[TheFast]

samus is sheik because u can spam needles to not alow charge time and force her into the air and then beat her in the air and just spam needles on the ground again when you land and keep forcing her into the air

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yes that's what it is, Din's does 16 damage

samus can still charge through a needle spam, she just needs to shield inteligently. You'll actually need to approach if you want to stop her.

 

[Ryazan]

uhh... i'm pretty sure that those arrows beat the needles flat out.. they do more damage and come out faster and have better stun it seems to me... DON'T GO TO AN ARROW FIGHT WITH NEEDLES XD haha

Actually, if you shoot one needle at a time, they can come out at about the same speed as Pit's arrows. When you're using the needles against Pit, you're focusing on preventing approach. Damage is secondary. Needles are too hard to see for Pit to reliably use his arrows to cancel them.

 

[Oh Snap]

Just a question...can Din's Fire cancel outSamus' fully charged charge shot?

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

Very nice thread.

 

[TheFast]

Yes that's what it is, Din's does 16 damage

samus can still charge through a needle spam, she just needs to shield inteligently. You'll actually need to approach if you want to stop her.

well if they get in the habit of shielding mix it up charge it a little if she does somehow get the thing fully charged she still has to advance in the air cuz the best way to hit with it is up close as a sneak attack or else sheiks quick dodges can just avoid it (or just perfect shield it) but with spamming needles it will take samus forever to get the full charge and most smart samus players will try to advance just because if they screw up once then they loose the whole charge sense if she is hit with a needle during the charge she losses it

by the way if she trys to shoot it threw the needles the needles are fast enough to hit her after the command but before the animation so she losses he charge and doesnt get a shoot off

also for fighting zelda/sheik you should put it doesnt matter either way zelda/sheik wins

 

[Ryazan]

Just a question...can Din's Fire cancel outSamus' fully charged charge shot?

Hmmm... I'm not sure, I'll try it out, but it probably can because Charge Shot always has pretty low priority no matter how charged it is.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Zelda is definitely better against Peach, but Sheik can do fine.

 

[TheFast]

Zelda is definitely better against Peach, but Sheik can do fine.

i think your right and i think its because the best way to stop a great defensive character is with another one that has a better progectile

only problem is zelda is easyer to toad than sheik other than that zelda is much better for fighting peach

 

[popsofctown]

do you think that someone with little experience against Peach should start with Sheik? Because I fear that I would get Toaded a whole lot without practice against Peach's playstyle.