Walk-in Closet (Refurbished)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

probably the best option for DK... I'll agree.. though I like to play stright zelda against him and Din's fire camp him... but that might not be the best option depending on the stage

 

[popsofctown]

what about ROB? I've not played any good ROBs

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh god don't challenge him in the air.

I've tried this with both people.

Zelda seems to do a lot better since she has such great range.

Shiek can combo really well, but has a lot of trouble getting inside of ROB.

Both have a lot of trouble killing ROB... shiek moreso obviously

at least that's my experience with both of them.

 

[imdavid]

against rob its easiest to do zelda or StZ if yah know what you're doing with sheik, zelda can pretty much out camp him since his laser needs to recharge and his gyro needs to be charged, dins can do good
zelda's dj hitboxes help a lot in this match up since rob has a hard time ko-ing people

with my sheik i can really do damage against a rob, its not that hard to get inside of a rob just have to watch what he's doing and respond accordingly, if rob is in the air, try to run under him and do an utilt/usmash, if he's on the ground... its hard to approach since his dsmash comes out so fast so using aerials (which isn't a good idea to use on a grounded shielding opponent anyways) should be avoided

the best way to approach a rob with sheik is the boost smash, but besides that you have to sorta bait him to approach since sheik does really well against punishing with quick tilts and turn around tilts, you can really do a lot of damage against a rob with just tilts to reallly high percents, its amazing :]

once i get a rob to around 80-130% (big range... depends on how confident i feel) then i usually try to dsmash him off the stage at this and if the dsmash connects well then it'll give me just the right timing to transform, sure the rob can hit you with the laser as you transform, and maybe even the gyro, but the timing for the gyro is hard to get (i just hold shield just in case) and the laser doesn't have that much knockback /damage so i just eat it up

at this point i try my best to just smash and lightning kick rob, he's a big target and i think its one of your best chances to catch him by surprise as he's recovering, (i like gimping people, what can i say?) another good thing to do is to fast fall under him as he's doing one of his many aerials and uair him, no one can survive an uair at 130% can they? xD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think StZ might be best sice he's so hard to kill, it'd be nice to have fresh kill koves

 

[Oh Snap]

I have troubles killing ROB aswell, even with Zelda.

But doesn't ROB give Shiek some trouble in the air?

 

[imdavid]

try not to spam your fair against a rob, use your nair and your bair, it has longer range than robs fair and since they are both sex kicks they do better against his nair then the quick fair does, but yes, generally stay away from an airborne rob unless you wanna get nair-ed in the face, if he pops you up then air dodge back down and try to hit him with an uair, tilt, usmash, etc etc

 

[#HBC | Scary]

For the ROB matchup, I generally think StZ would be a very great option so long as you don't try to fight ROB consistently in the air. It's good to sneak a good aerials in there to keep him off balance but not too many.

If Sheik, it is very important to have a full set of needles so that you can interrupt most of anything ROB wants to do. If ROB fires his laser, without altering its direction, you can simply duck it! Most of your damage will come from tilt combos. Instead of gimping with Sheik, since ROB has aerial superiority, recharge the needles or use the opening to go to Zelda.

If Zelda, Use your tilts, they are great, and dtilt works wonders. Although you have to be on your toes, you can outcamp ROB with Din's & dummy Din's just in case he does hit you with a laser. Uair KOs ROB at 100%, maybe even 95% if in the air so don't forget about this move because it is devastating to him. Make it priority #1 to get back to the ground if your popped up because ROB could do all his damage up there. Either airdodge down or even FW when you can get to the range of getting to the ground, just get to the ground! Lighting kicks can kill ROB easily, possibly at 90-95% so SH fair & bair are great!

I think StZ or Zelda alone is the way to go but I could be wrong, let me know.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree with Scary here. Shiek just can't seal the deal. and Zelda has a hard enough time with him that she could really make use of the fresh moveset that switching in will afford her.

 

[popsofctown]

in response to several players expressing favor towards StZ in the PK matchups, I've changed them.

I'm a little unhappy that we haven't resolved Marth yet. Marth anyone?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Marth............ummmmm............I would generally say stick as Zelda because even though you have a slight speed advantage as Sheik, Marth outranges you, he outpowers you, and he has counter if you try to tilt lock him (unless it is possible to duck when the counter comes out or have the player timed). Even if you try to gimp him as Sheik, don't, more than likely you will get stage spiked by his buffed Up+B.

I'd say make him force the approach with Din's and act off him, grabbing when possible. Once grabbing the Marth, its imperative that it is strung into something because the opportunity to get inside him does not come often. It is somewhat of a defensive battle so NL I suppose can be used as a "get him off me" move just like with MK. Maybe the new "Love Jump" technique can be really handy in escaping him once he gets started.

Me personally, since I play overly aggressive, I foxtrot to approach, keeping him off balance and looking for either a grab or Dtilt opportunity. Make him think counter and take full advantage! He doesn't have the greatest recovery (like he used to) when it comes to distance covered so I try to fight with him near the edge since Marth is pretty light and can be KO'ed at fairly low percentages like 95+%.

Its about all I can contribute until I get a Wii and/or some more practice against Marth.

 

[popsofctown]

there's various things Sheik can do against people who have really good tilt lock replies. For this specific case, i would investigate ftilt-ftilt-vanish. Vanish, by it's very nature, cannot be countered.

I don't have any other comments. If Sheik really can't gimp kill, the discussion is pretty much between Z and StZ.

 

[Brinzy]

For Ness:

StZ is definitely the best choice. One character's attacks place Ness in positions where he usually doesn't need PKT2 to make it back, while the other just has a hard time racking up damage in general due to Ness's dangerous air-game and his low % killing moves.

Grab Ness with Sheik. Batter him and lead into combos. She should be so much faster than him that he won't have a decent chance at reacting to it. Love your needles. They can't be absorbed and they mess with Ness's baiting game. Remember that Sheik's smashes come out faster than Ness's, so don't be afraid to throw a Dsmash out against him whenever he's nearby. Use any basic combos that Sheik has on Ness; they all work quite effectively on him because you are much faster than him. All in all, operating on the ground isn't where you'll have much problem using Sheik.

It's the air you need to be cautious about. Sheik has good range and speed in the air, but Ness has very disturbing priority on a lot of his moves. Fair will shield him from a lot of your moves. Sheik's ability to strike swiftly is invaluable here. Luckily for you, he's not the fastest approaching character in the game, so you have the upper-hand here. Unfortunately for you, however.... you'll have to actually kill him to get him to lose a stock, as he has great recovery and Sheik might not be able to deal a finishing blow before he gets a b-throw or a bair on Sheik.

Zelda is more viable at the higher %s because now she doesn't have to worry about getting him to a killing zone. Her dtilt chains him up very nicely, and her Dsmash's knockback will kill or force him to use PK Thunder to recover. She has several killing options here, but it's advisable to try and kill him on the ground or with a throw as opposed to the air; Ness is very difficult for Zelda to take in the air. Sheik alone might work anyway, but if you decide to use Zelda, wait until you get the hard part out of the way: building up damage on Ness.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I have an other reason to add for Zelda being used vs. ice climbers:
they rely on their chaingrab: her massive range makes her dang hard to grab.

as for a matchup you already have, DDD should be straight Zelda.

Zelda destroys DDD, sheik has more trouble with his range and the needles don't go through waddle dees like Din's does.

Zelda really has reliable punishment for most anything DDD can throw at her and cab;t be changrabbed.

She also severly hampers his recovery, forces him to approach, and stops all of his approach options fairly well. She might not kill him quickly, but she'll keep him in check well enough that she doesn't have to because she'll be dominating the matchup

 

[popsofctown]

The converse to your statement is true. Although Din's go through waddles, and needles don't, Waddles go through Din's, but not through needles.

The main problem I've found in using Zelda against Dedede is the air. Dedede's aerial game has a lot of range and priority to it. You can't damage Dedede during his bair using Din's. Zelda has trouble getting close enough for a lightning kick, and certainly has trouble getting close enough to use nair.

Sheik can use his speed and fast aerials to hit Dedede before his moves come out, and combo Dedede in the air. Actually prevailing over him long enough to gimp is a tall order, but he can definitely keep Dedede on his toes in the air.

I'll tag the matchup disputed for now.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The converse to your statement is true. Although Din's go through waddles, and needles don't, Waddles go through Din's, but not through needles.

The main problem I've found in using Zelda against Dedede is the air. Dedede's aerial game has a lot of range and priority to it. You can't damage Dedede during his bair using Din's. Zelda has trouble getting close enough for a lightning kick, and certainly has trouble getting close enough to use nair.

Sheik can use his speed and fast aerials to hit Dedede before his moves come out, and combo Dedede in the air. Actually prevailing over him long enough to gimp is a tall order, but he can definitely keep Dedede on his toes in the air.

I'll tag the matchup disputed for now.

I disagree with Zelda not being good Vs. DDD in the air. While DDD has some range on her, he's the easiest charcter in the game to sweetspot with any one of her aerials. If he has you in the position he wants you, it's at your dissadvantage, but If it's Zelda who puts DDD where she wants him, it's his.

Add DDD will have a lot of trouble putting you in the air to begin with. His most reliable approaches come from the air, and Zelda stuffs all of them with Usmash the ponly exception is if you let him DIRECTLY above you to dair... but he's not very amueverable so it's easy not to let that happen.

Zelda's disjointed hitboxes can stop his waddle dee spasm from being too effective as well, so he is the one forced to approach in this matchup.

Sheik, on the other hand, is forced to approach DDD in many cases and has a much harder time getting inside his hammmer.... I'm not sure whether shiek can be chaingrabbed or not, but I know zelda can't.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

there's various things Sheik can do against people who have really good tilt lock replies. For this specific case, i would investigate ftilt-ftilt-vanish. Vanish, by it's very nature, cannot be countered.

I don't have any other comments. If Sheik really can't gimp kill, the discussion is pretty much between Z and StZ.

It isn't exactly that you cant gimp him, but you put your self at such a bad risk in trying to do so since Marth's UpB sends you at an angle that more than likely will bounce you off the stage. You can go out of your way to go and gimp him, putting distance between yourself and the stage and try to treat it like Ike's SideB recovery, intercepting him, but there is more risk.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda beats ganondorf... shiek beats ganondorf... barely...

shiek THEN Zelda vs. ganondorf is complete and utter pwnage... trust me on this one... I playd a good ganondorf... but once I emplyed the shiek Then Zelda strategy... he fell to ky knees.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I have an other reason to add for Zelda being used vs. ice climbers:
they rely on their chaingrab: her massive range makes her dang hard to grab.

as for a matchup you already have, DDD should be straight Zelda.

Zelda destroys DDD, sheik has more trouble with his range and the needles don't go through waddle dees like Din's does.

Zelda really has reliable punishment for most anything DDD can throw at her and cab;t be changrabbed.

She also severly hampers his recovery, forces him to approach, and stops all of his approach options fairly well. She might not kill him quickly, but she'll keep him in check well enough that she doesn't have to because she'll be dominating the matchup

For the IC, it definitely has to be Zelda because she can mob both of them at the same time and if you separate them, killing the computer is like killing a level 1 computer.

As for DDD, Sheik isn't bad against him but I'm almost certain she can be chaingrabbed. I'll double check it to confirm but I'm fairly certain. My best advice is to remain as Zelda becaue you can outcamp him so long as your on your toes for random Gordos since they cant be reflected. Yes, his bair can neutralize Din's but he has to respect it or he will rack up quick damage.

Has anyone thought about spiking DDD? If you can gimp him long enough to where he as to use Up+B. Get a feel for his trajectory and spike him at his highest point because most likely he'll aim for the ledge from below. He's not invincible using Up+B so if you can get a feel for where he is going to go, he's all yours!

 

[Ztarfish]

As for DDD, Sheik isn't bad against him but I'm almost certain she can be chaingrabbed. I'll double check it to confirm but I'm fairly certain.

Liar. Dedede's chaingrab is based on weight, and Zelda and Sheik have the same weight. Besides i've tried and you can't do it.

My best advice is to remain as Zelda becaue you can outcamp him so long as your on your toes for random Gordos since they cant be reflected. Yes, his bair can neutralize Din's but he has to respect it or he will rack up quick damage.

Yes Din's ***** Dedede, but you're wrong about the Gordo's. At least I think you are. I have a fairly distinct memory of me dying cause of a reflected Gordo to the face. I'll test this out though.

Has anyone thought about spiking DDD? If you can gimp him long enough to where he as to use Up+B. Get a feel for his trajectory and spike him at his highest point because most likely he'll aim for the ledge from below. He's not invincible using Up+B so if you can get a feel for where he is going to go, he's all yours!

try uair if they're coming from high above as well. Really his recovery leaves him a sitting duck as long as you're timing well.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Liar. Dedede's chaingrab is based on weight, and Zelda and Sheik have the same weight. Besides i've tried and you can't do it.

Your absolutely certain on this. I shall take your word on this then!

try uair if they're coming from high above as well. Really his recovery leaves him a sitting duck as long as you're timing well.

True, I've done this before, should have mentioned this because this also devastates him.

 

[jbozz1217]

A little off the current topic, but I would say that I think Zelda is more useful against Marth than Sheik is. It may just be easier for me, as I am more used to playing Zelda, but I found that Marth's range is just short of what Zelda's is, making it easy for her to outrange him and fsmash/ftilt. I know this is really basic, but I feel like it is very important.


Also, I think that the Fox/Falco, and possibly even Worlf, match-ups should be slightly reconsidered. When (snooping...? ) in the Fox forum, I noticed this thread, and realized that Fox players have much trouble facing Zelda, for quite a few reasons that can be found in the "Big Book of Fox Matchups", found in the Fox Forum, quoted below.

Zelda
Here we go, the real fight. Zelda is a PAIN. This is among my most hated fights as Fox no doubt. Din's Fire can be shined away, although it won't go back and hit her, at least you won't be rocked by it. The problem with her is that you have no approach. Her smashes have hardly any start up OR ending lag, they just happen and are gone. If you try to approach from above, she will hit you with her godly u-smash. If you try from the front, f-smash, or sometimes even u-smash (yes, its that good.) She can also Nayru's Love you off of her. Her d-tilt can also make you trip, which is annoying AND it can be instantly chained with a d-smash (which doesn't suck anymore) if you don't trip. Everything you do is a losing situation. You can't even laser spam her because of Nayru's Love and Din's Fire. The best thing you can do is wait for an opening to dash in with a shield-canceled grab. Another thing that may work is using n-airs to d-tilts. This is the fastest approach option besides grabbing and is good when you need to be less predictable in your approach. Mix up the n-air and the grabs. Make sure to keep Zelda on her toes by playing games with dashes, shields and empty short hops. You will need a lot of patience and great mindgames to make it through this fight alive. If need be, take this fight to the air(harder than it sounds), her aerial game isn't all that good with the nerf of the f/b-air. Good luck! 5/5

Sheik:shiek:
Hopefully Zelda will make this choice and transform to Sheik. Sheik is a lot like Fox actually. She has an annoying projectile, but not an entirely dangerous one and she is fast. Sheik is somewhat weaker than Fox and no longer has the godly f-air from Melee. Her d-smash will be her most used kill move so watch for it, although it isn't all THAT strong. Sheik still has a strong aerial game; especially now that she can do a real short hop, but so do you. This will be a fast action packed fight, with both players on their toes. Just use your best instincts and take her out. Nothing special to this fight really, just shine the needles cause they can do a lot of damage when charged. 3/5

 

[#HBC | Scary]

To jbozz1217: I really like that you dug this up from the Fox boards. I didn't realize that the Fox guys had so much trouble with Zelda! As far as Sheik is concerned, I'm surprised they didn't rate this matchup worse for them because of the ftilt lock that crushes all spacies; they just looked at the basics.

As for the Zelda matchup, yes, they are right all around. It hilarious that they are s***ing bricks against Zelda.

All options are available for the spacies IMO.

The marth matchup is pretty rough, because he is quick with his smashes and although we outrange him; being tipped should be in the back of your mind. It hurts, a lot lol! Most of his moves, although slightly nerfed, got much quicker, and a good marth will not have many openings to attack. Sheik would have the hard time of getting inside him and he still has counter, so that messes a lot of things up.

Zelda is at a slight disadvantage but definitely a winnable fight for sure.

 

[jbozz1217]

Yeah, those Marth fights were tough. It was the same person who used Fox. I had more trouble with Marth. I kept this thread in mind and switched between Zelda and Sheik just to see how I'd do, while trying not to jeopardize the game. The Marth I played relied mostly on abusing his >B, but not really spamming to the point of predictability. The only way I really was able to put up a fight against him was by polishing up my FW edgeguarding ^_^...

... I think that shieldgrabbing is probably a good technique against Marth to be used, but if you shield too early he will probably notice and shield break you (B) ... and we all know what happens after thattt.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah... I definitely do better against the space animals AND the earthbounders with Zelda... though catching a space animal in an Ftilt lock is always nice with shiek, Zelda is better on the whole

 

[jbozz1217]

I prefer Sheik for the Earthbounders... at least for now.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I prefer Sheik for the Earthbounders... at least for now.

Shiek is better for gimping them... but that;s really about it... Shiek just seems to get ***** by (especially lucas') massive priority and disjointed hitboxes... at least zelda can ourange and outprioriize them

 

[popsofctown]

i go to Mexico for six days, then you'se talks.

Although it's always a good measure to look in other characters' forums, i can't take the matchup evaluation seriously since it doesn't even have mention of the ftilt lock. There is strong evidence that Sheik does well in the matchup, and the things said in the Zelda evaluation may be true too but, well, like i said, its hard to use that as a reference since it doesn't even mention ftilt lock. It might be old, and the opinion of one guy instead of a composite.
I want to play a Marth, but now i can't really say much. Against some dangerous-to-edgeguard characters i think Sheiks like to use Vanish from the lower left of the stage up to the ledge.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Moving it back to front page, we probably need to get back to updating this thread lol.

 

[mewi]

Hello, I am a long term player of Zelda/Shiek, I was never the type to dismiss Zelda even in Melee when she appeared to be highly unused... So just as Melee, I feel that Falco/Fox are best defeated by Zelda in Brawl just as they were in Melee. This argument is probably going to haunt me but this is what won me a championship in my state lol. I used Zelda over Shiek in Melee that was gosh knows how long ago...

So many people kept repeating to me "Zelda sucks compared to Shiek" when playing Melee, I proved them wrong -.- Zelda was a personal choice favorite, although Shiek was used just as much hehe. To use both in the same battle is to confuse the enemy, master both and you most likely master the game.

So in ending... I do not understand why Shiek is placed as best VS Fox.../Falco, not sure about Wolf I don't really get enough chances to battle Wolf to really justify a reasonable decision but I'm guessing it is similar. Zelda is more ranged than Shiek, Zelda is not slow but has power, Fox is close ranged, fast and so is Shiek... So why match them up? That's more of an even battle than anything.

Either way in ending ( two endings!? D: )it really comes down to the player, a good player can adapt to any situation with any character, you can know all the SmashBros slang and trivia, abilities and glitches and be no where near good.

 

[ADHD]

Your absolutely certain on this. I shall take your word on this then!



True, I've done this before, should have mentioned this because this also devastates him.

And...... falco can chaingrab sheik but not zelda???

 

[popsofctown]

Hello, I am a long term player of Zelda/Shiek, I was never the type to dismiss Zelda even in Melee when she appeared to be highly unused... So just as Melee, I feel that Falco/Fox are best defeated by Zelda in Brawl just as they were in Melee. This argument is probably going to haunt me but this is what won me a championship in my state lol. I used Zelda over Shiek in Melee that was gosh knows how long ago...

So many people kept repeating to me "Zelda sucks compared to Shiek" when playing Melee, I proved them wrong -.- Zelda was a personal choice favorite, although Shiek was used just as much hehe. To use both in the same battle is to confuse the enemy, master both and you most likely master the game.

So in ending... I do not understand why Shiek is placed as best VS Fox.../Falco, not sure about Wolf I don't really get enough chances to battle Wolf to really justify a reasonable decision but I'm guessing it is similar. Zelda is more ranged than Shiek, Zelda is not slow but has power, Fox is close ranged, fast and so is Shiek... So why match them up? That's more of an even battle than anything.

Either way in ending ( two endings!? D: )it really comes down to the player, a good player can adapt to any situation with any character, you can know all the SmashBros slang and trivia, abilities and glitches and be no where near good.

Welcome to the Zelda boards. Sheik was selected early on for the fight against Falco and Fox, but it has not really been discussed that much.
From my recent play against Falco, i have personally been using solid Zelda for the matchup. The reason isn't any global advantage that Falco has over Sheik, it's the chaingrab. Sheik is chain grabbable but Zelda is not. Since Falco can get a 40% or so advantage right from the bat, i find it easier to use Zelda's inferior racking ability than to work from so far behind. I'd like to hear other people's opinions on the matchup, maybe it should change. I'm changing it from Sheik to S/Z immediately for now. The original reason it was Sheik and not S/Z is because someone claimed that Shiek had a 0-death combo on Falco, but i tested it and it requires bad DI/response. Furthermore, Zelda's kill power is in definite need, because Falco has ungimpable/almost ungimpable horizontal recovery.

 

[M@v]

^ let me chime in. As a fox main, Im on the receiving end of Zelda(although I do play zelda as a secondary). Its pretty much agreed in the fox forums Zelda is foxs second worst matchup only to pikachu. Zelda shuts down all of foxs approaches with her high priority usmash and spot dodge-dmash. Its hard to combo her too, not to mention zeldas usmash kills fox around 100%

 

[Gory snake]

One of my friends mains Link so I can give a small insight into this matchup.

Shiek or Zelda?: Zelda

Zelda's Nayru shuts down Link's projectile game, which makes up Link's approach, forcing him to either approach with something else (bad idea) or play defensively, which is the better option but Zelda can still punish with her own approach, hyphen smash, dash grab, dash attack or Din.

Link's recovery is the worst in the game and Zelda is very good at edgeguarding with Dins and her Dair. Overall this matchup is hugely in favour of Zelda

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I don't believe we've touched upon the matchup against G&W in the Walk-in Closet. At the moment, he is probably by far one of the most difficult matchups for either Zelda or Sheik.

As Sheik, Vanish will probably become a favorite move since it can ruin the key, and most of his other aerials. Needles cannot be bucketed, and so long as you can not get tech chased out of his Dthrow, a lot of his damage racking is gone. Perhaps even ducking the turtle can be an option if anyone would like to test it. Take full advantage of early Ftilt combos to build quick damage and I believe GRUSTing (Grab release Usmash Tippering) could work but I can't explore that right now. Let me know if I am wrong.

As Zelda: Be very wary with Din's, it can be used, but if it's bucketed, you could give him his scary OHKO bucket. Not good. Dtilt combos should be used early, late, and often. Early to rack, Late to string into KO tilts. Uair demolishes key but usually it is hard to time up, use if you can. Definitely be ready to tech G&W Dthrow often cause G&W will do this a lot. Utilt should kill at 90%.

Definitely add on if I missed anything.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I ue a Shiek and Zelda combo to beat him... but he's still tough.

 

[popsofctown]

i switch between Sheik and Zelda, since they both have an equally tough time

 

[Zolga Owns]

I play against a very good Sonic player regularly and Zelda is the best matchup against his sonic.

I mastered timing with Zelda against sonic so I cancel or take priority over near all of his moves.

Naru's Love can pretty much cancel or take priority over all of sonic spin attacks when used at the right time.

(Stupid Sonic dsmash) XD

 

[SeventhSage]

In my experience, most of the time it would go like that vs Samus

Zelda > Samus
Sheik* > ZSS

*I prefer to use Sheik against ZSS but you could also use StZ or even SaZ

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

In my experience, most of the time it would go like that vs Samus

Zelda > Samus
Sheik* > ZSS

*I prefer to use Sheik against ZSS but you could also use StZ or even SaZ

I dunno... in all my experience... Straight zelda is THE WAY to go versus ZSS... she just completely dominates.... but shiek vs. ZSS is so much more fun to me... so it really depends on why you are playing... for fun? or to win?