Walk-in Closet (Refurbished)

[popsofctown]

Please discuss current listings in the Sheik version for solidarity now

I am here to start a reference resource that is of great great practicality and importance.
All Zelda players who have decided to learn both Zelda and Sheik (which i personally believe should be every Zelda main) need to know how Zelda and Sheik will perform in each matchup.

Among the many special things about Zelda, only she, and to more or lesser extent PT, can counterpick in-game. Even in the worst of situations, and among the greatest pessimists regarding use of Transform, you can always switch to the more suitable character immediately after the loss of your first stock.

I am going to include correct choices for every character. I'm going to reflect the opinions of the community in this thread, not my own views. I separate myself from the final listings in this thread, they do not necessarily reflect my views.

This thread will only deal with correct matchups at the highest levels of play.
Partly related to this, I am going to put up conclusions based more on aristocracy than democracy. Everyone has a say, but the players that are more likely to know what they are talking about will be preferred over the opinion of a lesser one. (dispute will be noted on that character, but I'm probably going to put something in one way or the other)

If you are upset because three new posters disagree with two established members, and i've put the opinion of the fewer up (dispute noted), try to show hard evidence. If you think they are wrong, maybe show two players fight that match up out with very few mistakes. Or prove a certain approach can be stopped consistently.


There are going to be four options. The fourth one will barely ever get used, but there will be four. A character can be one of these four:
Use Zelda
Use Sheik
Rack damage up with Sheik. Kill with Zelda. (this will be called StZ. Sheik then Zelda)
Use Zelda and Sheik, with little regard to your opponent's %. Transform for the purposes of refreshing moves, and changing play style to mess with the opponent. This will be abbreviated ZaS, Zelda and Sheik.



"Easily lightning kicked because he's big" will be excluded from the notes. I think that's obvious, and therefore clutter. Predictable aerial patterns or other susceptibilities that aren't obvious are fair game, or any large characters atypical elusion of lightning kicks.

I will start the list. Someone tell me please tell me exactly how to divide Pokemon Trainer... I'm not sure if i should lump him together as one.

I'm starting it off with my own opinions on some characters.
A good place to start contribution is to give the other side of the story on the matchups i've already listed. I want the advantages of both characters listed, even if the conclusion is to use one or the other.



August 26, 2008 updates: Ankoku's matchup thread was used to generate some picks.
Decided to put multiple strategies for each character, but the bolds are best.
Due to actual tournament experience, i've come to feel that ZaS is a more viable option than i once thought. It's going to bolded sometimes, along with StZ, or even along with a single character in some places that i think it should go. Using them 50/50 in some matches can be useful for creating two different playstyles to fight, but saying that StZ or one character is better or worse will be hard to argue, since it's a tomayto, tomahto thing. But EVERYTHING in this thread is arguable (except that Transforming itself is a good thing. PM SonictheHedgedawg if you want to ask why Transforming is a good strategy. He now knows)


Bowser: StZ, Zelda SaZ
Notes: StZ is the best matchup, according to Ankoku's thread. Zelda has a good matchup too though, so SaZ is a good option. You can make Bowser fight Zelda some, since Zelda can rack pretty well in the match up (as implied by Ankoku's 60/40)


Captain Falcon: Zelda (contested)
Notes: Zelda has a massively good punishment game. Nearly all of Captain Falcon's attacks can be punished easily, this is the core of his weakness.


Diddy Kong: Zelda (contested)
Notes: This is Ankoku's listing. My own experiences disagree, we'll discuss it later. For now it is Zelda. Ankoku's smarter than moi.

Donkey Kong: StZ
Notes: Zelda suffers greatly from DK's ability to outrange. Zelda can easily be punished by moves like Giant Punch, but grabby nimble Sheik, not so much.
It's a very tough matchup, DK needs MUCH fewer hits than you to win.

Zelda's kill power is going to help, since Sheik can't gimp here. Zelda's range issues (Fsmash<ftilt) (bair wall too effective) stop me from recommending SaZ

Falco: StZ, Sheik, Zelda, SaZ
Notes: Both Sheik and Zelda can fight the good fight against Falco. None of these choices is wrong, I was going to bold Sheik as well, but then i would have to unbold them all to keep from feeling stupid.

Sheik has a powerful ftilt lock on falco at Falco's lower %s, netting her lots of damage.
Falco has a chaingrab at low %s, netting him lots of damage.
This has complex impacts on the simple Sheik v Falco matchup. It can end up having a massive positive effect one way or the other, or none at all (varying by the players, that is).

Zelda has no such racking trick, but she escapes chaingrabs with simple good DI and thus takes away Falco's. People, including me, describe the Falco v. Zelda matchup as nonstressful. Falco is easily lightning kicked, but he also has lots of ways to hurt you.
Recently i've been noticing that i can DI out of his jab combo a certain way and lightning kick Falco before i even land from the jab combo, something for you guys to look into.

Dumb Din's has a small place in this matchup, Nayru's Love has almost none at all. Needles are always helpful, but less so here than most place.

A special kind of ZaS that can be applied to this matchup is to use Zelda, except in the rare case that Sheik/Zelda is at a high% and Falco is at a low one. In that case, use Sheik, because you get tilt locks but Falco doesn't get CGs.

Remember, I did list Sheik here. Sheik is a valid option, don't pick the wrong character for you because of a chain grab.



Fox: StZ Sheik
Notes: Sheik still has the uber tilt lock, but no CG to answer it. Since the ftilt lock doesn't actually offer any special way of killing, switching to Zelda for kills probably isn't a bad idea. Do keep in mind that Fox is gimpable though, especially if he fire foxes. I theorize greater practice with gimping Fox would turn you to using Sheik only in this match, but few of us practice against Fox 9 hours a day. MK, maybe, not Fox.

Zelda only is a pretty bad pick. Fox's vertical aerial movement makes it hard to tell what he's about to do... you kind of have to play a good Fox. He's very hard to upsmash, and he's a great juggler, which steers us away from Zelda.

Game & Watch: Sheik, StZ, SaZ
Notes: Game & Watch has the bucket, which puts a tight leash on Din's Fire. Sheik gets to keep her needles, which can force approach from Game & Watch. Sheik is fast enough in the air and on the ground to punish the key and edge guard him during his recovery. Sheik has several chances to out speed Game and Watch in the air and on the ground, even though G&W will always outrange her.

Sheik can fight the turtle better than Zelda can, which is a big reason here why Sheik is favored.

Sheik and StZ are pretty close, for true, as Ankoku has it. However, i think the decay is going to wear away at Sheik if you use her to lonesomely, which is why i've listed StZ. SaZ is good to, sprinkling Zelda in a little bit can keep your opponent wondering, and blind them to Sheik's speed when it returns.

Ganondorf: Any
Notes: Ganondorf has trouble fighting anything wise. It doesn't really matter what character you use, to beat Ganondorf one must simply learn what Ganondorf can and cannot do and play against him with nearly any character. I believe Ganon wins tournaments when people don't understand what he can and cannot do.


Ice Climbers: Zelda
Notes: All of Zelda's ground moves except for Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dsmash, have a particularly large area of effect. This means Zelda can "mob" the ice climbers well, easily catching both with one attack. She can outcamp the Ice Climbers, and reflect them. When Nana is separated, Zelda can punish her more brutally if she is unprotected (it's like lightning kicking a CPU 1).
She also gets protection from the chain grab because her tactics are generally less shield grabbable (like sweet spotted kicks that push the shield, ranged game, Nayru's love pushes well, Nair pierces small shields).

Sheik gets CGed. It's bad. Don't even try it.

Ike: Sheik
Notes: "You're too slow" "You're too slow" "You're too slow"

Jigglypuff: StZ Zelda
Notes:

King DeDeDe: StZ
Notes: His bair cancels out all Din's fire, making his wall of pain a fierce approach against Zelda. Sheik can dash in and hit Dedede before his slower aerials. Zelda can kill easily due to his size, but can have a little trouble racking.

Kirby: Zelda
Notes: Zelda can outpriotize Kirby's aerials with upsmash fairly well.

Link: StZ, SaZ
Notes: Reflector is good, Sheik and Zelda both do well here. Link is just sort of an inferior character.

Lucario: Zelda, StZ
Notes: Lucario's increasing damage ability makes the StZ choice very dangerous here. If you don't knock him far with a move pretty early, or don't die in the middle (and we generally hope dying in the middle isn't how the pattern proceeds), then Sheik's difficulty in killing can lead to Lucario putting out lots of damage.
The reflector can come to have somewhat diminished importance against good Lucarios, they'll only use the aura ball when there's enough space for them to perfect shield the slow projectile, or when they are midair (they fall during the movie, and therfore fall below a reflected sphere).
Counter is harder to use on the agile Sheik than slower Zelda. Zelda's wondrous Upsmash is rags against Lucario's insane Dair. So some of this make StZ tempting.

Lucas: StZ, Sheik
Notes: Nayru's love can't punish Lucas's projectiles very well.
The main basis of the selection of Sheik here is PSI Magnet. It regenrate double of what Din's Fire would hit for. That's up to 32%, which almost completely scraps the move from the matchup.
Sheik's needles are powerfully useful.

Luigi: Zelda,
Notes: Zelda is one of this games ack-ack guns, Luigi is an awesome aerialist.



Mario: StZ
Notes: Mario is one of the best anti edgeguarders in the game.


Marth: StZ SaZ, Sheik(for now. in discussion)
Notes: Sheik's aerials are faster than Marth's aerials, which is helpful, especially against Marths who haven't adjusted to Sheik's unusually fast speed. However, Zelda has disjointed hitboxes to help her reach out and hit Marth .
Zelda is easier to Counter.

MetaKnight: StZ SaZ, Sheik, Zelda
Notes: Zelda has range needed against Meta Knight. StZ is a big option here because MK is almost ungimpable. Might as well spend the time transforming.
Zelda has defensive abilities, where Sheik has needles. Both have something to offer.



Ness: Shiek StZ, SaZ
Notes: Zelda doesn't like Ness' fair wall, at all. Not that Sheik likes it.



Olimar: Sheik
Notes:

Peach: Zelda
Notes: Peach has an overall defensive strategy, as Zelda does. Zelda has overall ranged superiority, though, which can put Peach out of her preferred state. Zelda is more easily Toaded than Sheik, but Nayru's Love is very effective against Toad.

Sheik gets smacked around like a ragdoll by Peaches awesome aerials. Run in fear.

Pikachu: SaZ Zelda, StZ
Notes: SaZ is bolded instead of StZ because StZ exposes Sheik to the matchup a lot, and Zelda has it better. She is a good anti aerialst, and can wall several of his approaches. She's great for running-upsmashing his zippings-around, and Nayru's Love is a decent panic when you can't tell what the heck the mouse is doing.

The kill power is important. Pikachu is not that light, and its recovery is beast.


Pit: StZ, Sheik, Zelda, SaZ
Notes: It's hard to rack with Din's, or reflect with Nayru, because of arrow looping, reflectors, and how fast Pit's shot is. Needle's rack better. Pit's slow recovery make transformation easy.

Zelda can land lightning kicks somewhat easily, so transform a bit early here.

Pokemon Trainer:
Starter:
Squirtle: Zelda the whole match
Ivysaur: Sheik the whole match
Charizard: Sheik the whole match

Notes:


R.O.B.: StZ , Zelda
Notes: Sheik can have some trouble cracking ROB. ROB is a defensive behemoth. Zelda's more passive style can kind of work better. Her reflector is pretty useful here.



Samus: StZ SaZ
Notes: Both characters can fight Samus pretty well. Both can punish overuse of Zair (after sheilding it). Remember not to use the chain with Sheik..... it's a bad habit i have. never pull the cahin on Samus.

SaZ: SaZ
This will probably never happen. But my logic is that switching yourself will equally confuse your opponent. Just because they are comfortable with switching characters doesn't mean they are comfortable with switching enemies.


Sheik: Zelda
Notes: Zelda is anti-aerialist, and can hit Sheik a lot. She also has quick but close range punished (like downsmash) that are kind of good against Sheik.

Snake: Sheik
Notes:

Sonic: Zelda, StZ
Notes: Sonic likes to beat up on characters who have easily punished after lag and take too many frames to release their own punishes. He'll find no such character in Zelda.

Sheik can fight him well too. Research needs to be done on chain-edgeguarding Sonic, then i'll list Sheik.

StZ: Zelda, Sheik
You still want to punish Sheik's aerials with upsmash if you can. However, Sheik is a bit better than against pure Sheik, because you don't want to give StZ the bonus-quick transform to Zelda.

Toon Link: StZ SaZ
Notes: Both have good matchups here.


Wario: disputed/convuluted/unsure
Notes: Use what you want to use for now, it's really not that bad a choice. It's unclear whether Sheik or Zelda has a better matchup here, the grab-exploits don't landslide the decision to one character or the other, but muddles it instead.


Wolf: StZ Sheik
Notes: Skipping the ftilt lock is a bit crazy here.



Yoshi: Zelda SaZ, StZ
Notes: This comes back to Zelda putting the hurt on aerialists. Yoshi tends to get hurt by ranged, disjoint folks. StZ doesn't let Zelda get out there and use her advantages as much as Zelda and SaZ do.


Zelda: Zelda
Notes:


Zero Suit Samus: StZ SaZ
Notes: Sheik and Zelda have a pretty equal time here. Go with what feels right.


All help is appreciated.

i transform because sometimes i feel that zelda is cuter, and sometimes sheik is cuter

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Be zelda 90% of the time... shiek's rarely better. though I'm normally shiek Vs. the mother kids or ike

 

[Oh Snap]

I've found Shiek to be better against Sonic than Zelda.
Will explain tomorrow...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

really... I find that hard to believe since zelda destroys sonic most of the time, unless shiek destroys him MORE

 

[imdavid]

i do believe sheik is a better match up against marths because sheik has enough speed to deal with marth's aerial speed against the fairs and so forth, where as a quick transformation to zelda for the kill at around 100% will do lots of good, sheiks metagame against marths have been pretty consistent since melee with trying your best to gimp while trading blows and fairs. i have seen darkmusicians zelda play extremely well against marths and it shows that zeldas are also versatile against him, but the level of commitment required to have such a zelda is beyond me :]

 

[Tsuteto]

Sheik doesn't have the range to deal with Marth. She may have speed over him, but Marth can start the move early if they're coming in for an attack and punish her. With Zelda's disjointed hit boxes, she can get in and hit Marth. Plus he is also susceptible to a jump fair/bair.

 

[popsofctown]

Ok lets get some input on Marth, he's a really important matchup. (trying to focus discussion. don't want the next two posts to bring up two other characters and bury this.)

To what extent do Zelda's disjointed hitboxes help. Does her Upair work against Marth's dair?

@Sonic the Hedgedawg, and those similarly situated:
Don't comment in this thread if you are not a dual Zelda/Sheik user, with at least relatively equal skill with both the princess and the ninja. The only exception would be if you have deep extensive third person experience watching a friend's Sheik and Zelda play against people, or completely obsess over several videos, or something like that.
It's the creed of smashboards that skill is more important than tiers, so it would be incredibly difficult to give good, unbiased input after only using one character or the other.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Sonic the Hedgedawg, and those similarly situated:
Don't comment in this thread if you are not a dual Zelda/Sheik user, with at least relatively equal skill with both the princess and the ninja. The only exception would be if you have deep extensive third person experience watching a friend's Sheik and Zelda play against people, or completely obsess over several videos, or something like that.
It's the creed of smashboards that skill is more important than tiers, so it would be incredibly difficult to give good, unbiased input after only using one character or the other.

Actually. I AM a dual zelda shiek user. and I'm skilled in both of them. It's just plain fact that zelda is the better choice most of the time.

 

[Aeyr]

I disagree with using Shiek vs. Olimar since his pikmin grant him a ton of range to counter shiek's need to get in close. Falco, use Shiek. Hell, use Shiek on all three of the space animals since most of them tend to get locked into Shieks f-tilt. Usually once these three get to about 80~90% change back into Zelda and use her stronger hits to finish them off.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I disagree with using Shiek vs. Olimar since his pikmin grant him a ton of range to counter shiek's need to get in close. Falco, use Shiek. Hell, use Shiek on all three of the space animals since most of them tend to get locked into Shieks f-tilt. Usually once these three get to about 80~90% change back into Zelda and use her stronger hits to finish them off.

I use Zelda vs fox for sure. he's too dang fast for shiek. Not that shiek isn't fast too, but he can't get inside zelda's range that well so Zelda tends to do really well against him.

I honestly slightly prefer zelda in all of thos matchups. against wolf, she kills his air-to-ground game with Usmash, like she does against most characters.

shiek has an easier time gimping falco, but zelda can punish falco's lack of range pretty well.

I think both shiek AND Zelda are favoured against all the spacies. Which gives you some freedom there.

 

[Oh Snap]

I could barely touch the Sonic with Zelda, but when I transformed into Shiek, I hit Sonic like 4-5 times without him even touching me. Shortly after I changed back to Zelda because I'm not used to Shiek.

 

[Dihan]

I know I'm not qualified for giving my opinions on such matters, but I feel that Zelda would be good to use against Peach. Nayru's Love counters Toad's spores, as in Peach whips Toad out, Zelda uses NL and the spores immediately reflect back at Peach.

Though I have no idea whether Peach mainers use Toad a lot as I've never been up against one online.

 

[imdavid]

I use Zelda vs fox for sure. he's too dang fast for shiek. Not that shiek isn't fast too, but he can't get inside zelda's range that well so Zelda tends to do really well against him.

..? yes, i agree zelda does well against fox, but apparently you haven't been on the fox boards. Fox users HATE sheik for a reason, ftilt http://youtube.com/watch?v=F82clXzuxTo this is a vid of one of the sheik users on our board doing what all the fox users hate. If the ftilt lock is successful (meaning the fox doens't get out after the first ftilt) the sheik can literally do this into a fsmash, usmash, or dsmash and do a 0-kill. I dont think zelda can do that. Fox is faster than sheik, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUvRhUpfN8, but not by much. You can't say he's "too dang fast" when his time is only .27 seconds faster. By the speeds it would seem like an even match up, and it usually is. That is of course.. if sheik doesn't use her ftilt

 

[Aeyr]

I use Zelda vs fox for sure. he's too dang fast for shiek. Not that shiek isn't fast too, but he can't get inside zelda's range that well so Zelda tends to do really well against him.

I honestly slightly prefer zelda in all of thos matchups. against wolf, she kills his air-to-ground game with Usmash, like she does against most characters.

shiek has an easier time gimping falco, but zelda can punish falco's lack of range pretty well.

I think both shiek AND Zelda are favoured against all the spacies. Which gives you some freedom there.

I perfer Zelda for all personally. It's just that I also play as Fox and have been utterly owned by both Zelda and Shiek, Shiek to the point I coudn't escape that f-tilt till I was already at about 90%. Not to mention Fox is very light in this game now...

 

[imdavid]

Sheik doesn't have the range to deal with Marth. She may have speed over him, but Marth can start the move early if they're coming in for an attack and punish her. With Zelda's disjointed hit boxes, she can get in and hit Marth. Plus he is also susceptible to a jump fair/bair.

hrm good point. When I play as zelda against marths, usually his speed and mindgames pressure me to the point where I get frustrated and discourages me. Often times when I use fsmash as he is approaching with fairs we both exchange hits and he gets the full damage of his fair while i only get the starting damage of the fsmash (1-2%), etc for other atacks of zeldas. Marth's disjointed hitboxes are much bigger than zeldas, however, given zeldas play style it can be a good counter. I just feel that sheik has greater control of the match than my zelda does. Shielding the fairs and countering with an ftilt combo to an utilt then chasing with fairs or nairs etc makes me able to pressure the marth back and have quite a neutral match where the greater marth/sheik player usually wins.

 

[popsofctown]

About sheik needing to be up close: Sheik doesn't actually need to be up close.. he just likes to. Sheik can use needles, although that runs counter to the style of what many sheik players enjoy. In my experience, needles can force approach, giving him the close up action he needs. Do enough people disagree that Sheik can force approach?

 

[imdavid]

sheik can force approach to characters without projectiles but the needle isn't really a great projectile anymore since it can't cancel out some projectiles like it used to... so against the spacies, samus, etc the needles don't do much and does nothing to force the approach, but to snake it does wonders because it comes out fast and stops nades from a distance. It also hits the nikita missile and causes it to move above you which is nice. I do believe it also stops snake from using his mortar slide, but... a good snake player will find a way around the needles... but luckily for us since he's such a heavy character ftilt locking works well for an option against snake. IMO Din fire > needles anyway

 

[Tenki]

Some people will most likely say that Sonic is either a "use Sheik" or StZ character, feeling like the needles are an important part of disrupting a Sonic's approach. IMO it might even be a SaZ, since Zelda players seem confident in their spacing ability/delayed+disjointed hitboxes against Sonic.

Also...
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Pokemon Trainer is a SaZ.

 

[popsofctown]

Thanks for the data on Sonic.

I believe we have enough info on Sonic now. Since the general feeling seems to be that Sonic is not a tough character beat, it is more important for us to focus on the harder match ups. I'd rather pull off a win with the wrong choice against a Sonic, than lose a match with the wrong choice against a Marth, savvy?

We can bring up some new characters, or talk about Marth more.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you know... shiek OR zelda is also a viable option since some caharacters (like Ike or sonic) are disadvantaged against both of them.

 

[Tenki]

Isn't that pretty much SaZ?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

not really. AND suggests you should use both of them OR suggests you should use one or the other... in fact ZoS should exist and ZaS should not. switching midbattle for no reason is not the best of strategies. In all likelihood, you are better with one than the other, so in situations where both are great, you should use whichever you are better with and/or whichever one your oponent is less used to fighting.

 

[DanGR]

wrong thread, sorry.

 

[popsofctown]

Let me explain this over again.

The data is based on the assumption that you are equal with both characters. If that's not true, it's each players responsiblity to determine how deficient their skill is with one character, and whether that means they should pick differently.

Any time both Sheik and Zelda have an advantage against a character, and their advantages are about equal, the answer will be StZ. Since Sheik is better at racking, and Zelda is better at kiling, during any no-risk opportunity for transformation, a dual player should switch to the character that is appropriate, Zelda for high enemy percents, Sheik for low enemy percents.
The combination of the two is something called synthesis, you take the best of both worlds.

If Sheik and Zelda both have the same strength against some character, and you use only one the whole battle, you are cheating yourself. You are not getting the benefits of keeping each character in their specialties, your a getting more move decay, and making your play style easy(er) to keep up with.

ZaS is a special case. You can't justify using ZaS unless you can explain how that specific character cause Zelda and Sheik to fall out of their roles. Refer back to the OP for the exact definition of ZaS.

 

[MASword]

What do you guys think about the Pit matchup? My friend's gotten obnoxiously good with him, I'm interested in hearing some thoughts.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Any time both Sheik and Zelda have an advantage against a character, and their advantages are about equal, the answer will be StZ. Since Sheik is better at racking, and Zelda is better at kiling, during any no-risk opportunity for transformation, a dual player should switch to the character that is appropriate, Zelda for high enemy percents, Sheik for low enemy percents... If Sheik and Zelda both have the same strength against some character, and you use only one the whole battle, you are cheating yourself...

not at all true. if transformation time was as quick as melee, you may have a point. But saying StZ is correct when both characters have equal advantages is just wrong. Even if you assume even skill with zelda and shiek for the user, you can't assume even skill against zelda and shiek for the opponent.

And, even if you make that assumption, it's still wrong. Transformation takes so long, you have to barely KO or nearly KO with shiek to safely transform to zelda. As a result, you won't get to use zelda to her fullest potential if at all. The closest you could get to this is transforming after an of the top KO or when the oponent is about to die and can't recover to refresh your moveset. Transformation just takes too long to make it a viable strategy to tranform when there's not significant momentum behind you allowing you a safe transformation, and even then, it gives your foe time to build momentum.

No, the CORRECT thing to do when shiek and zelda are equally advantageous in a matchup (which is not exceptionally common) is to read your oponent; Zelda and shiek are very different charcters and so play very differently. Due to this, they are advantaged for different reasons.

All else being equal chose which character to be based on which playstyle suits you better and, if you still can't make up your mind, read your oponent and choose whichever character you think you can better exploit weaknesses with. the ONLY reasons besides moveset refereshment you should be changing midmatch are:

You have high damage. Zelda camps better and can deal with high damage by doing so.
You've spammed your kill moves way too much and need to refresh.
Your oponent is getting used to whoever you are playing or is reading you like a book.
for some odd reason you absolutely NEED that invincibilty (other than final smashes and items I don't think that this really applies.)
or you are feeling like a change of pace and feel that you can control the match well enough to switch.

Zelda and shiek may be MEANT to be symbiotic characters, but they really don't play well as such. And most serious players would tell you the same.

 

[MASword]

Would you say one viable tactic is switching between Sheik and Zelda between stocks? This is assuming you're equally good with both and the character matchup is about even on paper. This would refresh moves and cause your opponent to have to switch gears to new tactics constantly.

 

[Ztarfish]

I think Sheik is a lot better against Ness than Zelda. Zelda's moveset just isn't conducive against a Ness.
Though I am by no means an expert, so I'd be happy to hear why Zelda is better against Ness. Though my experience as a Ness player is that it's much easier to go against a Zelda than a Sheik.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Ztarfish: you are correct. Shiek is better vs. Ness or Lucas.

Would you say one viable tactic is switching between Sheik and Zelda between stocks? This is assuming you're equally good with both and the character matchup is about even on paper. This would refresh moves and cause your opponent to have to switch gears to new tactics constantly.

Movesets auto refresh when you lose a stock so that doesn't help in that department, though it does keep your oponent guessing

 

[MASword]

@Ztarfish: you are correct. Shiek is better vs. Ness or Lucas.



Movesets auto refresh when you lose a stock so that doesn't help in that department, though it does keep your oponent guessing

I meant between killing them, but good to know.

 

[popsofctown]

not at all true. if transformation time was as quick as melee, you may have a point. But saying StZ is correct when both characters have equal advantages is just wrong. Even if you assume even skill with zelda and shiek for the user, you can't assume even skill against zelda and shiek for the opponent.

Most matchups you worry most about are those against players you've never faced. It would be difficult to know which character they would rather not play against. If they are particularly susceptible to one or the other, then you could stick with one. But the opponent doesn't have to be exactly equal against Sheik and against Zelda for StZ to be correct. They just have to be close enough to equal for the synthesis to be more important than the slight differences.

And, even if you make that assumption, it's still wrong. Transformation takes so long, you have to barely KO or nearly KO with shiek to safely transform to zelda. As a result, you won't get to use zelda to her fullest potential if at all. The closest you could get to this is transforming after an of the top KO or when the oponent is about to die and can't recover to refresh your moveset. Transformation just takes too long to make it a viable strategy to tranform when there's not significant momentum behind you allowing you a safe transformation, and even then, it gives your foe time to build momentum.

No, it simply doesn't take too long. For the Sheik to Zelda change, you can often knock someone off pretty far, dash across to the other side of the stage, and transform safely.
It is true that you might not ever get the opportunity, frequently i don't get it when i'm play StZ.

It's not the hard and fast pattern. It's not "ZOMG HE'S AT 108.3 %!", and then you must become Zelda as fast as possible. If you get a chance, you will become Zelda. If you don't, well, Sheik does have four or five kill moves, and you can pull them out.

As for transforming from Zelda to Sheik, these transformations always occur after a KO. Yes, sometimes she might perform the sort of KO that doesn't work out (like hard horizontal Dsmash). But then you just stick with Zelda, she has one or two racking moves (and we all rack with our kill moves anyway.)

But this is not the norm. At the very very worst, maybe 50% of Zelda's KOs don't allow a return to Sheik state. "Maybe a star KO" isn't a blue moon. Zelda has many kill moves that induce star KOs. Upsmash, Din's, and Upair all very very consistently cause Star KOs. She's one of the most powerful vertical killers in the game. And star KOs ALWAYS allow time to transform. Not sometimes, not maybe, always.

And then, on top of these opportunities, there is deaths. If you had actually read the OP, you would have seen my disclaimer for folks like you: "Even the most pessimistic of players regarding in-game tranformation have to admit that after-death transformations are totally safe". You will get two of those opportunities in every three stock game. If they are low %, Sheik has a natural advantage, if they are at high %, Zelda will have more of an edge.

No, the CORRECT thing to do when shiek and zelda are equally advantageous in a matchup (which is not exceptionally common) is to read your oponent; Zelda and shiek are very different charcters and so play very differently. Due to this, they are advantaged for different reasons.

If you can read your opponent, then you are in a situation similar to having more skill with Zelda or Sheik: that might be overriding, and if it truly is, you should stick with one.

All else being equal chose which character to be based on which playstyle suits you better and, if you still can't make up your mind, read your oponent and choose whichever character you think you can better exploit weaknesses with. the ONLY reasons besides moveset refereshment you should be changing midmatch are:

You have high damage. Zelda camps better and can deal with high damage by doing so.
You've spammed your kill moves way too much and need to refresh.
Your oponent is getting used to whoever you are playing or is reading you like a book.
for some odd reason you absolutely NEED that invincibilty (other than final smashes and items I don't think that this really applies.)
or you are feeling like a change of pace and feel that you can control the match well enough to switch.

These are all additional reasons that sometimes stack on top of the core reasons for transformation.

Zelda and shiek may be MEANT to be symbiotic characters, but they really don't play well as such. And most serious players would tell you the same.

I believe there is a large enough group of serious players that agree with me for this thread to exist as is. We can see. I know for a fact that RyokoSaka has posted vids of her playing an in-game transforming Zelda/Sheik.

 

[popsofctown]

Ah, thank you Ztarfish, you caught that. It was a typo, as you may have suspected. It's now corrected, Sheik is better in the match up.

You were saying something about conducive movesets, would you like to add so i can put it in the notes?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Point is, since you don't know if you'll get the chance to tranform. it's a BAD idea to structure your game around it.

Do it if you can and if you think it's a good choice, but if you build your strategy around needing to transform and you can't find the chance, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. Besides, logic says that if you can knock the foe far enough to transform, then you can follow up and KO instead of running away and transforming.

 

[gallax]

anything on pit? pikachu? i main pika and zelda but i never fought a good zelda/sheik user with my pika. but i have fought a few good pika's with my zelda.

 

[popsofctown]

Point is, since you don't know if you'll get the chance to tranform. it's a BAD idea to structure your game around it.

Do it if you can and if you think it's a good choice, but if you build your strategy around needing to transform and you can't find the chance, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Give one specific example on how "building your strategy around needing to transform" puts you at a disadvantage. There is no special dependency on the need to transform. You should be proficient with Sheik and Zelda if you intend to do StZ. So,
Case 1: You want to be Sheik, but you are Zelda: you fight as one would have to if they had chosen Zelda for the whole match.
Case 2: You want be Zelda, but are Sheik: you fight as one would have to if they had chosen Sheik for the whole match.
We are already working on the supposition that someone who used Zelda the whole time and someone who used Sheik the whole time would be about equal. So there is no problem at all falling in either of these ditches.

You just want to throw out three quarters because you can't make a whole dollar. You look at this the wrong way. Say you were in the woods, and were given a lantern and a bright flashlight. The lantern will always cast a dim glow, whereas the flashlight will cast bright light, but it malfunctions occasionally.
YOUR logic is to cast the flashlight on the ground and run through the woods with the lantern, just because the flashlight won't work every second you want it to. You wouldn't want to "base your strategy" around the flashlight. I would rather take the flashlight, and be able to see better half the time. Just because I don't have total control over when a good thing will be available to me doesn't mean i should destroy all those possibilities out of spite.

Besides, logic says that if you can knock the foe far enough to transform, then you can follow up and KO instead of running away and transforming.

This is a separate matter all together. Many times, Sheik players do prefer to chase off the stage and KO rather than transforming, then KOing.
Against some characters, chasing off stage is not a sure thing. If it is a sure thing, then you should be Sheik the whole match by all means.
An additional benefit to transforming instead of chasing is that Sheik gets a refresh. If Sheik chases, and kills with bair bair bair, she's back on the stage with a decayed bair and what other decays she's made so far. If she dashes and transforms, then KOs, that KO is probably vertical, and she will probably get to become Sheik during the KO. So she gets a fresh Sheik against the next stock instead.

It is honestly justifiable to say that Sheik should chase off stage instead of transforming, but that has to be justified for each and every match-up, not generally casted for true across the roster.


P.S. On the thread list right now there is a topic, named "Zelda + Sheik". 5 people have agreed that StZ is viable, and that's just one place in these boards.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Your analogy is wrong.

moving past that, while playing as both zelda and shiek in one match might be viable. That doesn't make it preferrable. I would NEVER put Z+S as the best possible approach to a matchup. the only thime that it's really the "best" strategy is if you were playing shiek vs. a space animal and attempted to 0-death combo and diddn't get the KO. In that case, above 90 or so damage, shiek's death combo will not work and Zelda has the more favourable matchup. In that case, StZ is the best matchup... but even then, that's not what you are presenting.

It's more like Shiek is the best matchup with zelda as a contingency plan.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm not any good with analogies anyhow...

You've now come to admit that playing StZ is viable. Now you claim that it is not preferrable, except possibly versus the space animals.

You're welcome to the opinion that StZ is not the best choice for the other 30+ characters. Maybe we will all come to that same conclusion, eventually. But as you've admitted, it's an option. And since it's an option, we're going to consider it as an option, and accept it or reject it, for every character on the roster.

*turns to address galax* Starting with pikachu! I don't know much about Pikachu, but he's high tier, and definitely an important opponent. I played a few games with Zelda against my friend's (bad) Pikachu, and Zelda seemed to have a lot of priority in a lot of places. Anyone play pikachu more than i do?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You've now come to admit that playing StZ is viable. Now you claim that it is not preferrable, except possibly versus the space animals.

Based on the evidence I've seen, instead of labling it StZ, I'd lable it:

Fox (0%-90%) Shiek
Fox (>90%) Zelda

but, I digress. if that is close enough to what you are caling StZ, then that's how the matchup goes. though if all goes well, zelda should not be needed.

 

[popsofctown]

Yes, that's pretty much what StZ is. If you spawned against a forty percent Fox, you would be Sheik, if you spawned against a 100% fox, you would be Zelda. And if you did a chase off stage kill with Sheik, you would ignore transforming entirely. That's a typical StZ strategy.

 

[DanGR]

why isn't his analogy correct? just wondering...