Walk-in Closet (Refurbished)

[TheFast]

do you think that someone with little experience against Peach should start with Sheik? Because I fear that I would get Toaded a whole lot without practice against Peach's playstyle.

well the thing is zelda is a defensive player force your oppoint to attack by pressuring with dins fire then only attack as a punishment when ur sure it will make contact toad would be a big problem for zelda but sheik is a very offensive player and that is what peach players are good against (dins fire helps negact peach's glide thus reducing part of her recovery, if they glide u can punish them for it which zelda is the only character of the top of my head that can do that)
i think peach is one of the tougher people for zelda

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i think your right and i think its because the best way to stop a great defensive character is with another one that has a better progectile

only problem is zelda is easyer to toad than sheik other than that zelda is much better for fighting peach

if Peach is toad happy, then use nayru's love:

the hoitbox will activate toad and then immediately reflect the spores. do that a few times and see if peach keeps trying to toad you

straight up Zelda is the best way to win this matchup.

 

[TheFast]

if Peach is toad happy, then use nayru's love:

the hoitbox will activate toad and then immediately reflect the spores. do that a few times and see if peach keeps trying to toad you

straight up Zelda is the best way to win this matchup.

awesome idea that completely left my mind then that make Zelda clearly the right choice for fighting peach

 

[Ryazan]

I say Zelda for MK. Zelda has better range and kill moves than Sheik, which is good because Mach Tornado is broken and MK is light. Neither Zelda nor Sheik outprioritize MK in any way, but a well-placed Din's will disrupt Mach Tornado. I bring up Mach Tornado so much because many MKs will use this a lot against Zeldas/Sheiks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I say Zelda for MK. Zelda has better range and kill moves than Sheik, which is good because Mach Tornado is broken and MK is light. Neither Zelda nor Sheik outprioritize MK in any way, but a well-placed Din's will disrupt Mach Tornado. I bring up Mach Tornado so much because many MKs will use this a lot against Zeldas/Sheiks.

wrong. zelda outprioritizes metakingt most of the time. that's what makes her so good against him. Her Usmash outpioritizes EVERY one of metaknights aerials including is Bmoves.

Her Fsmash and her Up and side tilt also outprioritize most of MK's ground moves.

Her Fsmash also outranges him. All he's got on her is speed, recovery and aerial reliability. I actually feel that the matchup is ever so slightly in zelda's favour. Granted, its so darn close to even that that's the category I'd place it in, but if I had to choose, I'd say Zelda.

 

[popsofctown]

hey, Ryazan, I tried using single needles against Pit today. We ended up trading, i wasn't disrupting. Is there something more i need to do to force approach, or were you mistaken?

 

[Kicknchickn]

not to bring up a sour topic again, but i kind of agree with sonic on the whole StZ thing. im afraid of circumstances where StZ is the best strategy but sheik without zelda sucks because thats to situational. i think its a fine strategy as long as you can still do as good (as just being zelda) when you cant transform.

also i think theres a lot of matchups where either sheik, zelda, or StZ work almost as well and we should state that. you can just ignore this if you want but i think it would be nice if we got a rating for each like
zelda - average
shiek - bad
StZ - good
or something along those lines.

 

[popsofctown]

yeah, i've been thinking about rating, or showing how big the discrepancies are on each matchup. But i'm trying to take it slow, kind of like the matchup thread did, they went through and did all the checks, and went back through to get more specific.

If you don't know how to kill with Sheik, than yes, it could be a little dangerous to do StZ. Personal discretion comes in a lot here. Your play style is really important in deciding whether to do StZ. If you don't downsmash much with Sheik, or use her other knockaway moves, you don't have a good chance of transforming to Zelda.
But Sheik does have ways of killing people. You should check out the Sheik forums. (which are separate from the Zelda forums, because apparently neither character has a Down Special </end personal vendetta remark>)

Sheik can kill with vanish, upsmash, fair (especially when used near or off edge), chasing off edge with nair, chasing off edge with bair, upair (when juggling), and fsmash (kind of).


Players who aren't as good with Sheik will have an exaggerated bias about her ability to kill. They should just stick with Zelda a lot. And if we get as far as the rating system you've suggested, they'll have a good idea of when to venture out of their habitat and be Sheik for a while.

I want to restate one thing many of you forget. Transforming opportunities are NOT a maybe. You WILL get at least two. They come at every spawn. If you lose the first stock because you can't kill with Sheik, than you will spawn a Zelda against a very damaged opponent. Zelda should take minimal damage, and ko that character very quickly, leaving the game really close to even. Then after that, you don't have to go back to Sheik if you don't want to.

The game will almost play out like natural selection or something. It really works even better in practice than in theory.

EDIT REASON: accidentally dropping masculine pronouns on Sheik, again.

 

[imdavid]

MK is definitely zelda xD only thing sheik has on him is an ftilt lock which if done right can get a mk from 30-70% but... zelda can do that just as well with like 2 smashes >.> save this match up for zelda unless you want an impossible challenge with sheik

 

[popsofctown]

Meta Knight's locked up in the name of Zelda.

What do y'all think about Captain Falcon? I think it's Zelda but i'm not sure.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know Zelda destroys him, so there's no way it's shiek only, even shiek then Zelda seems unlikey. It seems possible that shiek OR Zelda or shiek AND zelda are possible...

.,... but from my experience, Zelda.

 

[imdavid]

does it matter... the chances you'll meet a really good falcon is slim xD i recommend playing who ever you feel most strong in on that match up

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

does it matter... the chances you'll meet a really good falcon is slim xD i recommend playing who ever you feel most strong in on that match up

that's the only kind you ever WILL meet, since the mediocre falcons will never have a chance

 

[TheFast]

Zelda would be best because Zelda (at least the way i play her) is all about punishment and thats one of the main bad things about Falcon is most of his good finishers are very punishable if missed. Hes around easy to punish any mistake the player makes with him so in my mind Zelda would be best for that battle.

 

[popsofctown]

I think Fastyouwish wins this one. You can lightning kick or upsmash any of his missed B moves, and that's why Zelda seems so good i bet.

@ imdavid: from a practical standpoint, yes, you would use whoever you felt most comfortable with against C. Falcon. But the focus/mission of the thread is the theory (not practice) decision to make, assuming that the player is equally skilled with Sheik and Zelda.

 

[TheFast]

glad i could help

 

[TheFast]

Toon Link is Zelda because Toon Links range kills sheik pretty bad, not to mention Zelda is very anti aerial which is how many Toon Links advance. Din's fire is also a free hit if u time it to explod after he starts his up-b but before he grabs the edge. only problem is if the Toon Link gets you in the air best thing to do is just get to the ground fast.

This may be wrong though because im pretty sure sheik's needles can stop most of his projectiles but im just not sure how sheik would do melee wise against a Toon Link, any thoughts?

 

[popsofctown]

well, a big question on any matchup is whether or not Zelda can camp and force approach effectively.

I'm pretty sure that Zelda can force Toon Link to do something, but wouldn't really want to. If she tried that, Toon Link can make Din's go dumb with projectiles, use the time to get bombs and aid approaches, and use his grapple to get her.

His grapple might be the biggest thing. The way camping works is that you spam projectiles until your opponent comes into a range where he/she can punish. With bombs and grapple grabs, Toon Link can make you stop spamming even when he's not all that close. So then when you perform the "resort to melee" portion of the camping strategy, you don't have the same advantages you normally would.

So, unless someone has had other experiences against a good Toon Link, I'm thinking Zelda can't camp the matchup.

That doesn't necessarily mean she's not the best option. But it's a big minus for her, since Sheik has better approaches in general.

How much good can perfect shielding do in this matchup? If a Sheik player practices the matchup long enough, he could possibly perfect shield enough to change the face of the matchup.

Sorry, all this isn't going to end with a conclusion, because i have none.

 

[TheFast]

but then if sheik can approach can she fight affectively against Toon Link's range i dont have much experience against Toon Links thats what it comes down to..... if sheik can get around that by some slim chance her nairs and bairs can brake through i think Toon Link could counter attack fast enough to prevent most of sheiks "lower" damage finishers from being pulled off, i think we would need some1 with more experince fighting Toon Link to know for sure. I use to main him I know his range is alot greater than what people think at 1st but i might be giving it to much credit.

 

[imdavid]

ohh dear toon link is one of the feared match ups for sheik players simply because its impossible gimp that ******. his aerials are decent and are better than sheik, since he's so light its also hard to combo. i think actually the best thing to do, if this might sound crazy, is a forced approach with zelda with some mixed in NL's, might sound crazy, just throwing it out there. TL is one of the lightest characters in the game, he has a good dair stall, but an usmash should kill him at around 80ish% i'm guessing

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...and use his grapple to get her.

His grapple might be the biggest thing. The way camping works is that you spam projectiles until your opponent comes into a range where he/she can punish. With bombs and grapple grabs, Toon Link can make you stop spamming even when he's not all that close...

There is nothing frightening about Toon Link's grapple. it normally leaves him WAY open for counterattack and it's not like any of his throws are particularly good.

 

[imdavid]

zelda for this one for sre... sheik is viable but just a helluva lot harder case closed :]

 

[TheFast]

thought so. Didn't think about the fact of how light his is, that does help the Zelda claim allot.

 

[popsofctown]

Zelda it is. I agree with most of the points made here. Zelda has to approach, but she can kill better when she does it.

ohh dear toon link is one of the feared match ups for sheik players simply because its impossible gimp that ******. his aerials are decent and are better than sheik, since he's so light its also hard to combo. i think actually the best thing to do, if this might sound crazy, is a forced approach with zelda with some mixed in NL's, might sound crazy, just throwing it out there. TL is one of the lightest characters in the game, he has a good dair stall, but an usmash should kill him at around 80ish% i'm guessing

This is the strategy I employ against Pit. It works a little better than Sheik, and waay better than trying to camp or force-trade projectiles.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

still nothing TL can trade with din's will be a good trade off for him, and he REALLY doesn't need help being easy to kill

 

[TheFast]

On to the next one, Mario. Thats Sheik for sure. Mario has little range so sheiks combos are easier to pull off and Zelda's recovery can be capped, never a fun thing to happen. BUT after i think about it for a second i think this might be a case for final a ZtS. Zelda would be able to get Mario to killing range for Sheik quick but you wouldn't want to do it based on that. I say use Zelda but when u start getting knocked almost to where you have to struggle to get back or use your up-b at all switch to sheik. I think ZtS would work great for advanced Zelda/Sheik players but if the player isn't confident about it then they should stick to Sheik. Another thing is mario can just cape when you dins fire. This requires you to advance.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Bringing up an old topic and it seems pretty silly but last month in my first tourney I lost to a Bowser in the 3rd place match. What he would do is anytime I successfully approached, he spammed Up+B and sent me back. Anytime I got close he spammed Up+B, can that be sheild grabbed, and is there anyway to escape the Bowser suicide kill? Lastly, when trying to recover, he would rack-up so much extra damage with his fire, it was most annoying. The matchup is definitely Zelda all the way since he's such a big target but based on my experience against a great Bowser, what can be done?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

On to the next one, Mario. Thats Sheik for sure. Mario has little range so sheiks combos are easier to pull off and Zelda's recovery can be capped, never a fun thing to happen. BUT after i think about it for a second i think this might be a case for final a ZtS. Zelda would be able to get Mario to killing range for Sheik quick but you wouldn't want to do it based on that. I say use Zelda but when u start getting knocked almost to where you have to struggle to get back or use your up-b at all switch to sheik. I think ZtS would work great for advanced Zelda/Sheik players but if the player isn't confident about it then they should stick to Sheik. Another thing is mario can just cape when you dins fire. This requires you to advance.

No. He can't cape your recovery.

and he can't outcamp din't fire. cape cannot force you to approach... it accomplishes the same thing as a sidestep dodge, but with much more lag.

 

[imdavid]

wow... last time i played a good mario... is a long time ago, poor underrated character
well lets seee i'll try my best to break it down with what i know...

the fludd isn't so good... but its enough to push sheik away from the ledge where as zelda can FW back to the stage from far away outside of the range of FLUDD and a potential cape, even though mario does have that cape off the ledge technique which is fun to do

mario has some crazy juggles and since zelda seems to be floatier she can get out of them easier even though she's heavier... makes no sense to me but it seems to work seeing how sheik gets CG easier while zelda escapes most of the CGs out there.

mario can be combo-ed prettty easily by sheiks ftilt, but at the same time since mario has pretty poor range on his moves due to his stubby legs and arms zelda will have no problem landing her moves on him as well, only difficulty would be the lightning kick but you just need to aim low and if you haven't perfected that then... this thread is ... kinda not for you now is it.

as for an aerial battle, it seems like if sheik is under or at the same level as him then she has the advantage while if she is above him she is at a disadvantage, we already know zelda isn't that great from being attacked anywhere from underneath, the vulnerable under belly :]

dins will work very well on mario, if he tries to cape it you can simply make dins move behind him and hit him while his cape is out... the cape will probably get him more hurt than an aerial dodge or a roll/spot dodge

mario's fireball is mediocre but it can be effective against a sheik, but so can sheik's needles be effective on a mario so ... just cross that out

over all... since mario isn't that fast nor heavy zelda will have an easier time in killing him it seems where zelda can be either aggressive or defensive, its up to the zelda player

sheik will do well in being aggressive where sheik can try to gimp mario's recovery, since the fair and nair come out faster than marios fair and marios nair has quite little range it'll do well to gimp where the cape could turn sheik around but chances are a nair will hit him as well as turn sheik around toward the stage and help her...

all in a hypothetical situation, zelda

 

[TheFast]

ok even if dins fire is behind his cape Mario doesn't get hit
and Zelda's recovery can be capped if he capes the start up animation
the more i think about it the more i think its just Sheik

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ok even if dins fire is behind his cape Mario doesn't get hit
and Zelda's recovery can be capped if he capes the start up animation
the more i think about it the more i think its just Sheik

A) even so, it doesn't go flying back at zelda so it accomplishes n omre than a sidestep dodge. And, if you are close enough, it's punishable.

B) you cannot cape farore's wind. stop saying you can. Even if you cape the startup, it won't stop her... why the heck would you use FW to recover if you are close enough to get caped anyway?

 

[popsofctown]

we need someone with more practical experience against a good mario. We'll find someone who's played a good mario in.... maybe a year.... or so.

I think Fastyouwish is saying that mario can cape fw and cause it to go in an opposite horizontal direction. That's really kind of irrelevant though. Sheik is sooooo easily ledgehogged, it's not even funny. Mario doesn't even need a cape to get him killed. Besides, Zelda can line up vertical FW's if she really wants to in most recovery situations, and since you can sweetspot the ledge facing either direction in Brawl, the cape won't matter. And if mario can get close enough to cape her Faore's wind, he can do physical damage and just gimp it, just like any other character can.

The cape is nothing more than a spot dodge, as sonic says. The cape is an argument against Sheik, as Sheik's needles actually come back and hurt her.

I'm not listing anything until someone with lots of experience comes and says something. Or maybe one of you can go spy in the mario forums and find some vs. sheik and vs. zelda vids.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

In my experience since I used to main Mario, something I can throw in there is when Mario tries to approach, he may try to throw a SH fireball into a Nair or Fastfall into jab combo since he has to make up for his lack of range. I really see no way that FW can be caped consistently thanks to sweetspotting the ledge but I could be wrong. Popsofctown is right about Sheik, she is very easily gimped but she can also sweetspot the ledge with vanish, just have to be alot more cautious. Also, the cape cannot save Mario forever so in a camp war, Zelda wins in a landslide. If Mario does start to juggle Zelda in the air, make every effort to get back to the ground because Zelda is at her weakest in a juggle and Mario has more than decent priority. Overall, Zelda should win with her range and disjointed hitboxes but Sheik isn't a bad matchup either although recovery with Sheik is a tad harder.

 

[popsofctown]

What about assaulting Mario with Nayru's Love? It's symmetrical, and thus punishes caping (oh noes. you caped me. now i'm knocking you left instead of right). Sheik has nothing like that, except upsmash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

and Dsmash.. which are both great moves

 

[TheFast]

my friend use to main Mario you can cape Zelda's up-b, I'm not lying with all the stuff i defend what makes you think i don't know what I'm talking about. 1st time he did it i was left in awe and disbelief, so we tested it and it works. Test it out yourself and don't tell me not to say something i know is right.

Cape at start of Up-b makes it go in the opposite side of her up-b than the one you are holding. Zelda's up-B is made up of 16 set directions and ever direction has a set opposite.

And as far as it not being capable if a Mario uses the glitch where you run of the stage and cape that the edge they get a momentum boost and can catch every now and then and can happen more than what people think. Also good Marios combine the cape and f.u.d.d. for edge guarding because u f.l.u.d.d. for a little backwards to foil sweet spotting the edge then to can cape to turn DIing for a little while without giving a 2nd jump back. Capping Zeldas Up-B is more dangerous than what people think is from the lack of greatMario players yet.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

my friend use to main Mario you can cape Zelda's up-b, I'm not lying with all the stuff i defend what makes you think i don't know what I'm talking about. 1st time he did it i was left in awe and disbelief, so we tested it and it works. Test it out yourself and don't tell me not to say something i know is right.

I never really tried cape on Zelda's FW which is the only reason I was skeptical because I never had seen it done. I will definitely try it out. If that happens, cant you use FW in the opposite direction that you intended in order to get the wanted result? It seems logical.

 

[imdavid]

... why would you be so close to get caped anyways? also... the AoE of dins is HUGE, to say you can cape it when mario gets hit from behind is redonkulous

 

[sFoster]

I never really tried cape on Zelda's FW which is the only reason I was skeptical because I never had seen it done. I will definitely try it out. If that happens, cant you use FW in the opposite direction that you intended in order to get the wanted result? It seems logical.

Until he starts playing mind games and faking a cape attack

 

[TheFast]

... why would you be so close to get caped anyways? also... the AoE of dins is HUGE, to say you can cape it when mario gets hit from behind is redonkulous

even if its behind him as long as the cape animation is going he doesnt take damage