Vs. Jiggs?

[Whirlwind Werewolf]

I know I should have the advantage as the Fox player in the Jiggs vs. Fox matchup, but I really don't like having to deal with certain Jigglypuff players. I've asked people who I should use as a secondary, but they all tell me to "just play Fox." Sometimes the matchup is ok, but is Fox really the best to use vs. Jiggs? Would using any other characters vs. the puff be easier?

 

[PK Webb]

marth outranges puff

 

[Smashjin]

Doublepost.

 

[Smashjin]

*waits for niko to come in here and say puff ***** marth*

I know I should have the advantage as the Fox player in the Jiggs vs. Fox matchup, but I really don't like having to deal with certain Jigglypuff players. I've asked people who I should use as a secondary, but they all tell me to "just play Fox." Sometimes the matchup is ok, but is Fox really the best to use vs. Jiggs? Would using any other characters vs. the puff be easier?

You live on Long Island?

 

[FoxLisk]

i think falco is easier to play vs puff, but i think fox has the best matchup.

 

[metaivan]

i think marth is the best option.

 

[Moxin]

Marth only does good vs good puffs if you leave like no openings by mixing up fairs/ retreating nairs/ ftilts and jabs when they try to approach and stuff. Marth and fox both have the ability to kill puff pretty early, tippered utilt/ fmash with marth **** puff. Personally I play fox vs puff, but Marth is the only other char I'd be comfortable with in the matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is probably the best character to play vs Puff if you're good with him and technically consistent enough to take advantage of his greater speed, lasers, kill power, grinding power, and versatile mobility.

In terms of looking for an alternative character to counter her, I'd either try something unorthodox like Ganon (only loses to Puff by a lil' but most Puffs are bad vs Ganon), the Jigglypuff ditto (again, most Puffs are bad at this, so being good at it is really nice), or Marth (most non-elite Puffs struggle with him). I hear Doc is supposed to be okay against Puff too. I don't believe it for a second, but it may be worth looking into.

 

[G.L.]

alot of people around my area use CF to counter puff. i think fox is the best but if you arent real consistent with him then your just gonna get *****. i think ppl use CF cause he is so fast on the ground and can hit random knees to get kills that can be hard to punish, but a missed fox u smash can get you *****

 

[unknown522]

I know I should have the advantage as the Fox player in the Jiggs vs. Fox matchup, but I really don't like having to deal with certain Jigglypuff players. I've asked people who I should use as a secondary, but they all tell me to "just play Fox." Sometimes the matchup is ok, but is Fox really the best to use vs. Jiggs? Would using any other characters vs. the puff be easier?

If technical consistency is your problem, then I suggest marth, falcon, or jiggs ditto.

 

[Rooktionary]

Honestly, I use pikachu as a puff counter. Pika still has the same great killing capabilities with his u smash, but also has a much more versatile recovery so you cant get WoPed as easily. Most of the time I die with Fox it's because the jiggz can easily gimp my recovery, but I dont have that problem nearly as much when I'm using Pikachu. Not only is pika good vs jiggz imo, hes also a ton of fun. It's worth trying.

 

[Whirlwind Werewolf]

Yeah I actually use Pikachu as well, but even the pikachu players don't like the jiggz matchup lol. But I think Pika and Marth are good ideas. Falcon could work too. I'll need to work on my Marth quite a bit before I get very good with him....oh bother lol. Yeah I'm on Long Island Smashjin. Thanks for your ideas guys, I appreciate it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth would be the best out of the ones you've considered.

 

[Whirlwind Werewolf]

Alright I'll go to to training with Marth, thanks KirbyKaze.

 

[Bets]

uthrow -> uair. ez pz

 

[Beanman]

uthrow -> uair. ez pz

jigz can do that too

But seriously, I don't mind playing against good marths, but I can't stand good fox's. I guess if you're confidant in your spacing and jigz knowledge you can mirror, but it would probably be best to use fox.

 

[Mahone]

doc is the worst matchup for jiggs if played right

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I would honestly prefer fighting a doc over a marth or pikachu... well good pikachu.

Marth's up-tilt and general range **** puff. Pikachu has that upsmash like fox but with more abstract recovery methods and also his downsmash which idk is kinda bad but definitely messes with Jiggs that get into a bair spam rhythm.

Doc has uairs but one hit and Jiggs is out of range. Pills are ok but not huge. And missed rest punishment is huge, but smart Jiggs players won't rest unless its almost guaranteed. (I personally don't know how to rest doc) For instance, hbox would prob not rest against a doc. MAYBE once per match.. max. ITs the bairs that do him in

Fox against Jiggs, nair-shine, uthrow-uair, tech chase usmash... (downthrow -> shine->wd-> usmash or throw right into the u-smash?????)

You can also purposely take a bair to the face if you time an up-smash a little earlier before getting hit) good trade

 

[FoxLisk]

pills are huge in that matchup, dude.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I guess I never played a really good doc. Cause my bair spam rarely gives them time to pill and I am in the air quite a bit. My biggest problem with pills is when they are recovering and pop one out as I approach, but that is avoidable

 

[Metal Reeper]

I think M2K should go Marth vs puffs...

 

[Keblerelf]

Marth is good vs puff.










If you play perfectly.



Just stick with fox.

 

[G.L.]

Marth is good vs puff.










If you play perfectly.



Just stick with fox.

kinda the same with fox though, jiggs just has really good punishemnts for small mistakes so idk who to use.

 

[JPOBS]

i used to think jiggs punishes fox super hard for small mistakes, but as i think about it more, thats not even true, her punish game isnt ever that spectacular vs fox.

it basically boils down to grab -> upthrow rest which is really easy to avoid. i'd say the bigger problems is her edgeguarding is much more efficient than fox's in the matchup.

but i cn think of 4-5 chars that punish fox harder for messing up than puff does (fox ditto included)

 

[Pi]

don't di the upthrow, makes it easier to sdi <-- secret tech

this is a true story if you have extremely good SDI skills. or if you're working on developing them. but you have to be able to SDI out of more upairs than the fox would miss if you DI'd full backwards for it to pay off (obviously you know this, just enumerating the payoff for everyone).

how can you tech? Or do you mean "technique"?

SDIing up works.

That's how I roll. out.

ya i mean technique, i think its a habit i picked up from when i played mtg i dunno

d/w guys
the jiggs' are sabotaging themselves

i used to think jiggs punishes fox super hard for small mistakes, but as i think about it more, thats not even true, her punish game isnt ever that spectacular vs fox.

it basically boils down to grab -> upthrow rest which is really easy to avoid. i'd say the bigger problems is her edgeguarding is much more efficient than fox's in the matchup.

but i cn think of 4-5 chars that punish fox harder for messing up than puff does (fox ditto included)

miss tech = rest
miss di = rest
off the stage = dead
get upair'd = rest
get uptilted = rest
side B poorly = rest
dash attack/fsmash shield = rest

have you not seen jiggs vs. fox matches?
the fox gets the jiggs to like 100% then dies at 20/30 from a rest/edgeguard

 

[FoxLisk]

miss tech = rest
miss di = rest
off the stage = dead
get upair'd = rest
get uptilted = rest
side B poorly = rest
dash attack/fsmash shield = rest

why did you list "miss di" so many times? you only get rested out of an uair or utilt if you di it poorly. and a lot of the times people get off stage is because they DI'd something poorly. and there's never any reason to dash attack or fsmash jiggs' shield, so that's irrelevant. you might as well say if sheik transforms to zelda she's dead. yeah, it's true, but there' just no reason to ever do it.

so what it comes down to is if you miss DI or miss a tech, you're dead. but hey, isn't that true of... falco, fox, marth, and falcon also? maybe not quite as severely, but very close.

and have you considered the implications of what it means that the fox can consistently get jiggs to kill percent before eating one gimp? protip: the implication is that it's not so bad. in fact, if that's happening most of the stocks, then the biggest difference is the psychological impact of getting rested because you missed DI. so suck it up and keep playing well. the matchup is still good for fox.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Matchup is definitely good for Fox. Alot of those "misses" aren't really that solid unless they are predictable. And you shouldn't ever be too predictable

 

[Pi]

di & tech perfectly the whole match plz

and i thought we were discussing jiggs' punishes on small mistakes? no?
isn't a miss di or a missed tech a small mistake?

how much harder does she need to punish? 2 stock loss?

in theory let's just smash di out of every combo then nobody gets combo'd

beter yet let's not get hit in the first place by perfectly ledgestalling

 

[JPOBS]

miss tech = rest
miss di = rest
off the stage = dead
get upair'd = rest
get uptilted = rest
side B poorly = rest
dash attack/fsmash shield = rest

have you not seen jiggs vs. fox matches?
the fox gets the jiggs to like 100% then dies at 20/30 from a rest/edgeguard

Lets get this clear right off the bat, we're talking about fox making mstakes.

A jiggs player landing a uptilt or upair doesnt at all imply the fox player made a mistake. Unless we're going with the "dont get hit" mentality, thats very unfair to label as a mistake so lets throw those out the window.

"off the stage = dead" again, isnt a mistake. Unless you going to tell me "you shouldnt have got knocked off stage, thats a mistake", im just going to say that jiggs isnt punishing you when she's edgeguarding, shes just edgeguarding and using her strengths.

I dont even know what to say about "side B poorly". I know what your getting at, but thats hardly a point to make as i could say "jiggs resting poorly = dead"

you shouldnt be dash attacking or fsmashing jiggs at all.

the only two real mistakes you can make are miss DI and miss tech.I still stand by the fact that falco/fox/marth/peach punish harder overall and for more likely mistakes to make.

di & tech perfectly the whole match plz

its pretty easy to never miss DI if you have solid jiggs experience. upthrow rest isnt hard to avoid and isnt even close to SDI difficulty.

 

[Keblerelf]

I still stand by the fact that falco/fox/marth/peach punish harder overall and for more likely mistakes to make.

I didn't know falco/fox/marth/peach had a 1 frame move that killed anyone from anywhere on the stage after having 20%.

 

[Mahone]

I guess I never played a really good doc. Cause my bair spam rarely gives them time to pill and I am in the air quite a bit. My biggest problem with pills is when they are recovering and pop one out as I approach, but that is avoidable

i would recommend playing a good doc before claiming its not a bad match up.

d/w guys
the jiggs' are sabotaging themselves





miss tech = rest
miss di = rest
off the stage = dead
get upair'd = rest
get uptilted = rest
side B poorly = rest
dash attack/fsmash shield = rest

have you not seen jiggs vs. fox matches?
the fox gets the jiggs to like 100% then dies at 20/30 from a rest/edgeguard

how are we sabotaging ourselves, what i said is true? I try to di behind foxes, but sometimes if they consistently hit you with the second hit of upair, i would suggest not diing and trying to sdi.

miss tech is not that easy to rest, the jiggs has little time to react to it before you can input a getup, so they usually have to predict it or you are being too slow, if they predict it that means you should of been able to as well and should have teched. Yes there are some rare cases such as a pound close to the ground, but its not that big a deal, also at higher percents its not guaranteed.

what does miss di mean? like off an upthrow?

off the stage is too vague, there are many situations where the fox has a 50 percent chance of living, and some situations where they have more than that. Plus a lot of characters can in theory edgeguard fox as well as puff can, but everyone makes mistakes cuz this isnt super theory bros.

getting upaired is true most of the time, but platforms can help avoid this greatly, and also this is not the easiest thing for the jiggs to set up, also di will help avoid this as well.

you can crouchcancel uptilt for a while and then punish, and if you di it it can be very hard for the jiggs to get the rest, also it is hard for jiggs to get in the position to uptilt fox.

its not jiggs fault that the only fox that shortens his illusion is colbol, its easy to see the jiggs spacing to rest the side b and just shorten it and get away free of a punish.

why would you dash attack or fmash jiggs shield? I gotta go with foxlisk's arguement on this one.

di & tech perfectly the whole match plz

and i thought we were discussing jiggs' punishes on small mistakes? no?
isn't a miss di or a missed tech a small mistake?

how much harder does she need to punish? 2 stock loss?

in theory let's just smash di out of every combo then nobody gets combo'd

beter yet let's not get hit in the first place by perfectly ledgestalling

**** you are so good at this game, i wish i was as good as you, can you give me lessons?

 

[Pi]

First of all
it was sarcasm

second of all
do you namesearch or something?

third of all
i am that good
and i do charge for lessons


now to address some of the -points- you and others attempted to make;
i'll start off by saying that yes, you shouldn't be dash attacking, dsmashing, or fsmashing a jiggs shield, as a samus main i'm fully aware of this and it's not a hard thing to avoid so i'll retract that.

'miss tech is not easy to rest' is a null argument, difficulty to perform is never a factor. Especially when it's not difficult at all to perform >.>

pound, up air, up tilt, dash attack, and bair all are quick moves that will knock fox down to the ground within the 40 frame window where he cannot tech (assuming he attempted to tech before getting hit), at various percentages, with jiggs in a prime position

missing DI on an uptilt/upair/upthrow/pound is a legit mistake that happens quite often; see every good fox player ever.

i fail to see how other characters punish fox harder than rest
or how they edgeguard better

i'm not saying this is a bad matchup for fox, jiggs lacks maneuverability (speed) to match foxes, quite often the fox can throw out -safe- attacks, but as far as punishing harder? no, that's one thing jiggs has for sure. it's just more often than not the jiggs is on the offensive in this matchup (because she has to be, lasers), whereas in his other matchups (fox) it goes back and forth, allowing for more mistakes to be made on the foxes part (for being the one to attack)

 

[Mahone]

First of all
it was sarcasm

second of all
do you namesearch or something?

third of all
i am that good
and i do charge for lessons


now to address some of the -points- you and others attempted to make;
i'll start off by saying that yes, you shouldn't be dash attacking, dsmashing, or fsmashing a jiggs shield, as a samus main i'm fully aware of this and it's not a hard thing to avoid so i'll retract that.

'miss tech is not easy to rest' is a null argument, difficulty to perform is never a factor. Especially when it's not difficult at all to perform >.>

pound, up air, up tilt, dash attack, and bair all are quick moves that will knock fox down to the ground within the 40 frame window where he cannot tech (assuming he attempted to tech before getting hit), at various percentages, with jiggs in a prime position

missing DI on an uptilt/upair/upthrow/pound is a legit mistake that happens quite often; see every good fox player ever.

i fail to see how other characters punish fox harder than rest
or how they edgeguard better

i'm not saying this is a bad matchup for fox, jiggs lacks maneuverability (speed) to match foxes, quite often the fox can throw out -safe- attacks, but as far as punishing harder? no, that's one thing jiggs has for sure. it's just more often than not the jiggs is on the offensive in this matchup (because she has to be, lasers), whereas in his other matchups (fox) it goes back and forth, allowing for more mistakes to be made on the foxes part (for being the one to attack)

first of all, what were you sarcastic about, u are still argueing so u must of been serious about something.

second of all, no name searching is gay as ****, i just posted in this thread earlier and was following up.

third of all, ill mm anytime

now to address your -points-

i am not saying hitting a when your opponent is on the ground is hard, i was talking about the setups

miss tech is not that easy to rest, the jiggs has little time to react to it before you can input a getup, so they usually have to predict it or you are being too slow, if they predict it that means you should of been able to as well and should have teched. Yes there are some rare cases such as a pound close to the ground, but its not that big a deal, also at higher percents its not guaranteed.

i address what you are saying, i am just pointing out that it doesn't happen enough for you to complain about it.

i already covered uptilt and upair if u read my post.

upthrow is not as hard to di as it looks, fox's are just bad at recognizing situations where they are going to get grabbed, just because they are good foxes doesn't mean they are good at the matchup


ok, so here is when it gets dumb, i agree that jiggs punishes fox harder than any other character, getting upthrow rested does happen to top foxes just for missing a lcancel, and bad di on just one upair can lead to death...

and i KNOW that was your point, so you probably are asking yourself why the **** did i post all this ****, but you have to admit, that the way that you listed it, it made it seem alot worse than it is, and everyone on these boards is already scared ****less of jiggs for no reason, so im just trying to make ur post seem more reasonable.

all in all, i agree with ur point, but i can sense some saltiness when u write about jiggs

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Fox players lose to Jiggs because they get overzealous and stop doing what got them the % lead and start fishing for grabs and upsmashes, get caught with their hands in the cookie jars and get ****ed up.

The same strategy these Foxes use to get ahead of Jiggs works just as well when you're ready to kill her. So ****ing what if you have to kill her with a bair at 140%, if it means you're safe while doing it, **** the upsmash and **** the upair. I hate watching Fox mains scrub out and lose to Puffs just because they HAVE to get that M2K uthrow uair bull****. If the opportunity shows itself, then **** right you should take advantage of it, but when you risk your stock for a kill, it's just not worth the consequence of failing.

 

[Pi]

first of all, what were you sarcastic about, u are still argueing so u must of been serious about something.

second of all, no name searching is gay as ****, i just posted in this thread earlier and was following up.

third of all, ill mm anytime

now to address your -points-

i am not saying hitting a when your opponent is on the ground is hard, i was talking about the setups



i address what you are saying, i am just pointing out that it doesn't happen enough for you to complain about it.

i already covered uptilt and upair if u read my post.

upthrow is not as hard to di as it looks, fox's are just bad at recognizing situations where they are going to get grabbed, just because they are good foxes doesn't mean they are good at the matchup


ok, so here is when it gets dumb, i agree that jiggs punishes fox harder than any other character, getting upthrow rested does happen to top foxes just for missing a lcancel, and bad di on just one upair can lead to death...

and i KNOW that was your point, so you probably are asking yourself why the **** did i post all this ****, but you have to admit, that the way that you listed it, it made it seem alot worse than it is, and everyone on these boards is already scared ****less of jiggs for no reason, so im just trying to make ur post seem more reasonable.

all in all, i agree with ur point, but i can sense some saltiness when u write about jiggs

i was being sarcastic with my 'don't di upthrow upair' response

also if you're going to to6 we can set up a MM if ya want

also when you say that DIing upthrow is not hard...
you just hold a direction...obviously not -hard-
its whether or not you expect the grab...
obviously if you land in front of a jiggs shield, you start diing immediately because the opportunity is there
but if they tommohawk you, combo you into grab, anything unexpected, it becomes significantly less apparent that you're going to get grabbed

 

[FoxLisk]

also when you say that DIing upthrow is not hard...
you just hold a direction...obviously not -hard-
its whether or not you expect the grab...
but if they tommohawk you, combo you into grab, anything unexpected, it becomes significantly less apparent that you're going to get grabbed

'miss tech is not easy to rest' is a null argument, difficulty to perform is never a factor. Especially when it's not difficult at all to perform >.>

lol...wut?

 

[strawhats]

I think M2K should go Marth vs puffs...

i dont know why he stopped using marth against puffs.

 

[Pi]

lol...wut?

You wanna re-read what I said?

I said DIing an upthrow isn't hard to accomplish, all you have to do is hold a direction, no where in there did I contradict my earlier statement.

Also the point of that statement wasn't to discuss/refer to the difficulty of DIing the upthrow, but moreso to point out that even mentioning the difficulty of DIing the upthrow is pointless;

upthrow is not as hard to di as it looks

such as in that statement
because it's easy to perform, for obvious reasons
hence when I said;

you just hold a direction...obviously not -hard-

 

[Mahone]

i was being sarcastic with my 'don't di upthrow upair' response

also if you're going to to6 we can set up a MM if ya want

also when you say that DIing upthrow is not hard...
you just hold a direction...obviously not -hard-
its whether or not you expect the grab...
obviously if you land in front of a jiggs shield, you start diing immediately because the opportunity is there
but if they tommohawk you, combo you into grab, anything unexpected, it becomes significantly less apparent that you're going to get grabbed

No im not going to TO6, too far.

upthrow is not as hard to di as it looks, fox's are just bad at recognizing situations where they are going to get grabbed, just because they are good foxes doesn't mean they are good at the matchup

I feel like you don't read my posts

You wanna re-read what I said?

I said DIing an upthrow isn't hard to accomplish, all you have to do is hold a direction, no where in there did I contradict my earlier statement.

Also the point of that statement wasn't to discuss/refer to the difficulty of DIing the upthrow, but moreso to point out that even mentioning the difficulty of DIing the upthrow is pointless;

such as in that statement
because it's easy to perform, for obvious reasons
hence when I said;

I like how u ask him to read what you said when you clearly don't read mine.

 

[Pi]

I feel like you don't read my posts

there is situations you can recognize that you're going to get grabbed, then there are situations where the jiggs has several options at her disposal, one of which is grab, the others are hard punishes, as well.

It's easy to look back and say, well yea of course he was going to uptilt grab upthrow rest
when he could have uptilted dash attack jab reset
or uptilted uptilted again to bair follow up
or just uptilted and done nothing to jab reset

along with many other options (not limited to uptilt)

recognizing situations where you're going to grabbed isn't always a sure thing, since there are always more options than grab