Vs. Jiggs?

[Mahone]

there is situations you can recognize that you're going to get grabbed, then there are situations where the jiggs has several options at her disposal, one of which is grab, the others are hard punishes, as well.

It's easy to look back and say, well yea of course he was going to uptilt grab upthrow rest
when he could have uptilted dash attack jab reset
or uptilted uptilted again to bair follow up
or just uptilted and done nothing to jab reset

along with many other options (not limited to uptilt)

recognizing situations where you're going to grabbed isn't always a sure thing, since there are always more options than grab

.... ya but you would want to di all of those things anyway

 

[FoxLisk]

i dont get why it's not relevant that it's hard for a puff to react to a missed tech every time, but it's highly relevant that it's hard for a fox to react to getting grabbed every time. that's my point. which you still haven't addressed. bro.

 

[Pi]

.... ya but you would want to di all of those things anyway

what if you are near the edge, DIing away, or toward the stage could lead to quite a hefty % gain, if not edge guard death.
and even if the jiggs doesn't grab, that situation sets up for jab resets in like 3 different ways

i dont get why it's not relevant that it's hard for a puff to react to a missed tech every time, but it's highly relevant that it's hard for a fox to react to getting grabbed every time. that's my point. which you still haven't addressed. bro.

Are you proposing that the fox, upon actually being grabbed, react to it and DI the throw?
And is that your way of having me contradict myself? Are you aware of the frame window involved from when the fox gets grabbed, to when he can no longer input DI? Bro?

The whole process:
Jiggs inputs the grab
7 frames later she grabs
wait for 1 frame
starts UpThrow
5 frames later no DI can be input

That's a grand total of 14 frames to input DI, assuming you react to the FRAME jiggs starts to grab
If you reacting to -getting- grabbed, that's a 7 frame window
and if you reacting to the throw, that's a 5 frame window

When I said 'difficulty to perform isn't a factor'
I was taking into account that we are human

 

[Mahone]

what if you are near the edge, DIing away, or toward the stage could lead to quite a hefty % gain, if not edge guard death.
and even if the jiggs doesn't grab, that situation sets up for jab resets in like 3 different ways



Are you proposing that the fox, upon actually being grabbed, react to it and DI the throw?
And is that your way of having me contradict myself? Are you aware of the frame window involved from when the fox gets grabbed, to when he can no longer input DI? Bro?

The whole process:
Jiggs inputs the grab
7 frames later she grabs
wait for 1 frame
starts UpThrow
5 frames later no DI can be input

That's a grand total of 14 frames to input DI, assuming you react to the FRAME jiggs starts to grab
If you reacting to -getting- grabbed, that's a 7 frame window
and if you reacting to the throw, that's a 5 frame window

When I said 'difficulty to perform isn't a factor'
I was taking into account that we are human

So now it went from anywhere on stage, to near the edge, and the more and more i correct you, the more specific the situations will become, until you realize that you are proving my point by slowly narrowing your own list....

so lets just skip to the end of this arguement.

Kniht: Oh, i see your point, u cant assume the jiggs is perfect and the fox isnt, and there are not as many situations where jiggs has a guaranteed rest as i thought.

Mahone: No problem man, i forgive you cuz your a samus main so you obviously didn't have as much experience as i did in the matter, but you something... i think we both learned some valuable lessons from this experience.

Kniht: I agree, ok, well im gonna go back to playing samus.

 

[Pi]

So now it went from anywhere on stage, to near the edge, and the more and more i correct you, the more specific the situations will become, until you realize that you are proving my point by slowly narrowing your own list....

If there were countless situations where the jiggs got a guarantee'd stock she'd be banned

Even if it is limited to certain points on the map, it's a stock none the less

And the original discussion was that jiggs punishes foxs little mistakes harder than any other char. Which is entirely true, and you have done nothing to disprove that other than saying the fox can avoid those things. Which is true, yes, because they wouldn't be mistakes if he couldn't avoid them. But going back to the original discussion, LITTLE MISTAKES = DEATH.

Regardless if they need to be on a platform, near the edge, let go of the joystick for a couple frames, or guess wrong on when they need to tech, it's a stock. No other character has that kind of security.

And while I appreciate your sarcasm attempt, you should probably get better at the game before you start talking down to others.

 

[FoxLisk]

you know whats fun? ignoring the fact that if jiggs is over 50% or so, a rest is NOT a free stock, just a stock trade. and ignoring the fact that if jiggs makes a small mistake, she eats 20-30%, which, in addition to lasers, tends to lead to her being in kill percents fast, afterwhich her small mistakes lead to death from uthrow uairs or strong bairs, too. which just kill and don't trade stocks.

 

[Mahone]

If there were countless situations where the jiggs got a guarantee'd stock she'd be banned

Even if it is limited to certain points on the map, it's a stock none the less

And the original discussion was that jiggs punishes foxs little mistakes harder than any other char. Which is entirely true, and you have done nothing to disprove that other than saying the fox can avoid those things. Which is true, yes, because they wouldn't be mistakes if he couldn't avoid them. But going back to the original discussion, LITTLE MISTAKES = DEATH.

Regardless if they need to be on a platform, near the edge, let go of the joystick for a couple frames, or guess wrong on when they need to tech, it's a stock. No other character has that kind of security.

And while I appreciate your sarcasm attempt, you should probably get better at the game before you start talking down to others.

This is my last reply to you, because you obviously don't read my posts.

ok, so here is when it gets dumb, i agree that jiggs punishes fox harder than any other character, getting upthrow rested does happen to top foxes just for missing a lcancel, and bad di on just one upair can lead to death...

and i KNOW that was your point, so you probably are asking yourself why the **** did i post all this ****, but you have to admit, that the way that you listed it, it made it seem alot worse than it is, and everyone on these boards is already scared ****less of jiggs for no reason, so im just trying to make ur post seem more reasonable.

all in all, i agree with ur point, but i can sense some saltiness when u write about jiggs

And just so you know, its not guaranteed death, the fox can di it at low percents and you are forgetting, if the fox has a stock lead or has the same number of stocks, if the jiggs is in death percents, the jiggs can't rest IN ANY OF THOSE SITUATIONS if the fox has shown he can di's it to die, and even if he does, its significantly worse of a punish.

I might not be amazing at this game, but i read all of your posts completely, and only argue about things i am confident i have enough experience in, so there is no point in arguing with you since you don't do either.

 

[Pi]

you know whats fun? ignoring the fact that if jiggs is over 50% or so, a rest is NOT a free stock, just a stock trade. and ignoring the fact that if jiggs makes a small mistake, she eats 20-30%, which, in addition to lasers, tends to lead to her being in kill percents fast, afterwhich her small mistakes lead to death from uthrow uairs or strong bairs, too. which just kill and don't trade stocks.

If jiggs chooses to rest at 50% or so, then yes, she dies as well
But her grab isn't **** without rest either. And she can choose to Fsmash out of jab resets which sets up for edgeguards, which she excels at especially if the fox was DIing bad in anticipation of the rest. And while in essence missing a rest can be seen as a small mistake, when your opponent isn't playing his character (in hitstun) there isn't much excuse for getting the one hit you need in. You can't compare to that missing DI or a tech.


@Mahone
I guess I didn't read that part of your post,
The points you made were valid, and yes my OP was pretty noticeably an oversimplification of rest setups. It would be the same as if I were to say the only thing fox has to do in the matchup is laser camp, up throw up air.

If the point you were trying to make was that rests aren't as easy as my OP made them seen, then yes I'll agree to that. But show me a fox jiggs match that wasn't won due to rests and I'll show you 5 more that were. I'm not trying to john for fox players, I hope everyone aspires & makes it to mango's level, but if you want to downplay the ease and diversity of rest setups, then you'll have to allow for human error on both parties parts.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

If there were countless situations where the jiggs got a guarantee'd stock she'd be banned

Even if it is limited to certain points on the map, it's a stock none the less

And the original discussion was that jiggs punishes foxs little mistakes harder than any other char. Which is entirely true, and you have done nothing to disprove that other than saying the fox can avoid those things. Which is true, yes, because they wouldn't be mistakes if he couldn't avoid them. But going back to the original discussion, LITTLE MISTAKES = DEATH.

Regardless if they need to be on a platform, near the edge, let go of the joystick for a couple frames, or guess wrong on when they need to tech, it's a stock. No other character has that kind of security.

And while I appreciate your sarcasm attempt, you should probably get better at the game before you start talking down to others.

Little mistakes aren't death. Huge mistakes are death. Rest isn't easy to pull off and if you spam up-tilt after every other bair, you are gonna get READ like a book

 

[RaynEX]

Little mistakes aren't death. Huge mistakes are death. Rest isn't easy to pull off and if you spam up-tilt after every other bair, you are gonna get READ like a book

Wait, what?

Missing one lcancel on a shield is a pretty common mistake as Fox. Its bound to happen at least 2-3 times to even the best of players. You're telling me that if we miss an lcancel, we deserve to lose a stock? Does that sound like a huge mistake or a logical trade off to you?

I don't mean to sound rude, but resting IS easy. If the opportunity is there all you really need is aim. Assuming you've been playing Jiggs for at least over a year, putting your character's sprite over another and pressing down B isn't all that difficult. Especially compared to some of the more technically difficult punish options that come along with playing ICs/Falco/Marth per se.

Oh, and utilt offers no giant window for counterattack if blocked. The most Jiggs will get hit by is a bair or something (most good Jiggs players only use utilt from behind their opponent).