Anonymous.
Smash Lord
qft. we have smash tags for a reason.
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- Thread starter jugfingers
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JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
cactuar better vs falcons??
i heard tang was the best player in the world tho...
but seriously, if ss met cactuar and they played, im sure there would be even more ss combos floating around.
darkrain can predict techs and follow up really well, but not like ss does it. he doesnt just follow one or 2 techs, he follows like 3 or 4. and he can grab out of the illusion like if its just a basic thing. his JC grab tech chases are so good, and then the way he wavelands all over the place and is just so smooth, theres just no comparison.
oh i almost forgot...moonwalking like a G so sexxxyy
ss>darkrain vs fox. this is whats important
against other characters im not so sure of. ss had trouble comboing pink shinobi on those vids i saw so darkrain is probly better at that matchup.
ss hasnt fought any marths that ive seen recently so idk about that one.
i heard tang was the best player in the world tho...
but seriously, if ss met cactuar and they played, im sure there would be even more ss combos floating around.
darkrain can predict techs and follow up really well, but not like ss does it. he doesnt just follow one or 2 techs, he follows like 3 or 4. and he can grab out of the illusion like if its just a basic thing. his JC grab tech chases are so good, and then the way he wavelands all over the place and is just so smooth, theres just no comparison.
oh i almost forgot...moonwalking like a G so sexxxyy
ss>darkrain vs fox. this is whats important
against other characters im not so sure of. ss had trouble comboing pink shinobi on those vids i saw so darkrain is probly better at that matchup.
ss hasnt fought any marths that ive seen recently so idk about that one.
Grabbing out of illusion is not impressive. The grab hitbox stays out for a significant period of time, most players just hit the Fox instead of grabbing it because it doesn't give them their jump back and it lets us gimp very very easily.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
when you get grabbed into a dropzone knee it is that impressive.
Kouryuu
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,017
I've always thought that Darkrain was the better Falcon (best) with SS right behind him. But recently, SS has gotten way better. He is definitely UNDERRATED. He doesn't travel out of Cali much from what I know but he always delivers when he comes down to SoCal.
His set with Mango and Lucky at the Smash Circuit was amazing.
Darkrain is still probably the best Falcon though simply b/c of the level of competition he plays.
On the side note; I'd love to see Cactuar v SS. That'd be an amazing match.
His set with Mango and Lucky at the Smash Circuit was amazing.
Darkrain is still probably the best Falcon though simply b/c of the level of competition he plays.
On the side note; I'd love to see Cactuar v SS. That'd be an amazing match.
Winston
Smash Master
How about this:
no falcon can beat Cactuar if he plays like he did vs Darkrain at event 52.
Who knows who would win in falcon dittos among the top falcons. I would think Darkrain has the most experience, though.
Also, lol @ nobody mentioning jiano in this discussion, he's pretty good too...
no falcon can beat Cactuar if he plays like he did vs Darkrain at event 52.
Who knows who would win in falcon dittos among the top falcons. I would think Darkrain has the most experience, though.
Also, lol @ nobody mentioning jiano in this discussion, he's pretty good too...
Scar
#HarveyDent
No SS is not better than darkrain vs spacies, I think it is obvious to everyone who knows what to look for. It is my strong opinion that Cactuar would absolutely destroy SS and that it would be no closer than darkrain. Furthermore I don't see any reason to think otherwise.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
=o
im surprised at this, even mango said it...one grab and your basically dead. and i think we can say mango is better then cactuar.
ss's tech chasing is a step above darkrain's. thats all you look for in a falcon vs spacie match.
The "one grab and your basically dead" thing can be applied both ways.
Mango's Fox vs Falcon matchup is not as good as mine. I am probably the best at that specific matchup.
Regardless of any of that though, if SS doesn't get his vs Marth game up to par, I wouldn't even bother using Fox.
Also, tech chasing is NOT all you look at in a Falcon vs Spacie match. The importance of any matchup vs me is the player's ability to get first hits in. If they can't do that, they will never get the chance to try and tech chase me.
Mango's Fox vs Falcon matchup is not as good as mine. I am probably the best at that specific matchup.
Regardless of any of that though, if SS doesn't get his vs Marth game up to par, I wouldn't even bother using Fox.
Also, tech chasing is NOT all you look at in a Falcon vs Spacie match. The importance of any matchup vs me is the player's ability to get first hits in. If they can't do that, they will never get the chance to try and tech chase me.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
i understand your probly the best at that matchup, but the point is that if you get grabbed you would be trying to survive. the fact that "one grab your dead" goes both ways has nothing to do with it.
and if you would go marth just so you wont get ss'ed on (lol that sounds funny) then you are gaaayyyyy.
its true tho, i dont think ss is that good against marth. i think we can say scar is better vs marth then he porbably is. but theres no recent vids of ss vs marth so idk
and if you would go marth just so you wont get ss'ed on (lol that sounds funny) then you are gaaayyyyy.
its true tho, i dont think ss is that good against marth. i think we can say scar is better vs marth then he porbably is. but theres no recent vids of ss vs marth so idk
How does that going both ways have nothing to do with it? If I grab him, he will die too. I don't really care about getting death comboed if I'm keeping the lead the whole time, which is probable considering my ridiculous push and pull game.
Kouryuu
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,017
Cactuar's Marth would beat SS without a doubt.
But I would still like to see SS vs Cactuar (Fox).
Also, SS is better (though not THAT much better) in the Spacie match up than Darkrain. Though one thing I know for sure is, that he is waaaaaaaay more entertaining in the spacie match up.
But I would still like to see SS vs Cactuar (Fox).
Also, SS is better (though not THAT much better) in the Spacie match up than Darkrain. Though one thing I know for sure is, that he is waaaaaaaay more entertaining in the spacie match up.
I think the mistake a lot of people make when comparing falcon players is that they judge the player's skill based on the combos they are doing. SS does better combos than darkrain vs spacies, but darkrain is still better because of his ability to land hits and manipulate his opponents.
NES n00b
Smash Master
LOL falcon player fans.
Kouryuu
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,017
It's the reason why I think Darkrain is the better player overall. His smart and has a wide array of match up experience.
I've only played SS on one occasion. Even though he beat me, I noticed the difference in performance in our match than how he does vs Fox/Falco (I use Peach btw). I've talked to all the good smashers that have played him (Mango, Lucky etc.) and they say he plays a much much smarter game in the spacie match up as opposed to his other match ups.
But being good in the one or two match ups does not make SS the better Falcon than Darkrain (my money is on Darkrain if they play out a ditto). But as far as Spacies go, SS is the better player. He is very smart, his execution is on the spot, and his tech chase game is like no other. And he exploits openings like no other Falcon I've seen in that specific match up.
I've only played SS on one occasion. Even though he beat me, I noticed the difference in performance in our match than how he does vs Fox/Falco (I use Peach btw). I've talked to all the good smashers that have played him (Mango, Lucky etc.) and they say he plays a much much smarter game in the spacie match up as opposed to his other match ups.
But being good in the one or two match ups does not make SS the better Falcon than Darkrain (my money is on Darkrain if they play out a ditto). But as far as Spacies go, SS is the better player. He is very smart, his execution is on the spot, and his tech chase game is like no other. And he exploits openings like no other Falcon I've seen in that specific match up.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Yeah seriously, I'm not even going to argue with anyone. I already stated my opinion and that's fine.
I think that entertainment value is mad important for CF, more important for him than any other character anyways. I usually choose more entertaining combos over more reliable combos (knee > uair always), so I see where everyone is coming from, but mixing up who is better and who does more awesome combos is downright stupid.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
they both do awesome combos lol its just that in the particular matchup of fox vs falcon i believe and so do many others, that ss is just better. and cactuar the whole point is that you would get a highlight reel made out of you if you played him. ss will always do something amazing in his matches. i also think that he would not only do a **** combo on you but that he would beat you 60% of the time.
but you know what forget all this non sence talk. i wanna see it happen for real.. none of this arguing is gonna do anything until we see vids.
but you know what forget all this non sence talk. i wanna see it happen for real.. none of this arguing is gonna do anything until we see vids.
Kouryuu
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,017
Except nobody said that. I don't know where you got that from.
You're dumb dude. Trust me when I say that Cactuar WILL NOT lose 60% of the time. Sorry but SS is not THAT good. Pretty sure Cactuar would win 60% of the time if not more.
/FACT
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
lol really think so? i dunno....i dont wanna talk anymore, i just wanna see it happen. done with the discussion.
Big_R
Smash Champion
lol
ppl who kno ppl have said things about ppl who have played ppl
so i think darkrain is the best
ppl who kno ppl have said things about ppl who have played ppl
so i think darkrain is the best
Lol @ me ever losing to ANY falcon player 60% of the time.
Lol @ making relative skill comparisons based on how well the Falcon player does against Fox and Falco. Such a **** matchup it's not even funny.
Lol @ comparing SS to Darkrain at all. Both sides have their bias opinions on the matter; personally, I read stuff like "but darkrain is still better because of his ability to land hits and manipulate his opponents" and **** myself laughing because I know just what Jeff's capable of, but again that's just me (and a few thousand other people).
The main problem with comparing SS and Darkrain is this: people forget just how ****ing good they BOTH are. I mean seriously, they're both really...****ing...good at everything Falcon. And (this is coming from an equal fan of both players) videos really don't show what a player is capable of, or just how complex their mindgames & situational awareness are. I've played them both multiple times in tourney (albeit I haven't played Darkrain in like 2 years) and unless he's grown by unbelievable leaps and bounds, there isn't much difference between the two. Different styles, but they get the job done equally well.
Not that any of this matters. Because if you had seen Isai playing back in his prime a few years ago, you'd either have to be crazy or straight ******** to think any Falcon was better than his. He knew where you were going to be 30 seconds in advance, exactly how you would tech or roll (because his intimidating presence practically forced you do go to where he wanted), and had practically flawless spacing regardless of the matchup. Retired or not, nothing matches his Falcon (except maybe KDJ playing falcon in friendlies).
...Oh yeah and one more thing. Don't give anyone that "I've only been playing smash for <2 years" ****, lol. That excuse might've flown 3 years ago, but you guys now are playing in one hell of a priveleged era of smash, with over half a decade of the evolution of smash's metagame right at your fingertips on youtube, and hundreds of thousands of threads here on the boards. You guys are handed smash's history, including character matchups / effective strategies / technical potential on a silver platter, and learn in a week what it took the founders years. No johns.
Lol @ comparing SS to Darkrain at all. Both sides have their bias opinions on the matter; personally, I read stuff like "but darkrain is still better because of his ability to land hits and manipulate his opponents" and **** myself laughing because I know just what Jeff's capable of, but again that's just me (and a few thousand other people).
The main problem with comparing SS and Darkrain is this: people forget just how ****ing good they BOTH are. I mean seriously, they're both really...****ing...good at everything Falcon. And (this is coming from an equal fan of both players) videos really don't show what a player is capable of, or just how complex their mindgames & situational awareness are. I've played them both multiple times in tourney (albeit I haven't played Darkrain in like 2 years) and unless he's grown by unbelievable leaps and bounds, there isn't much difference between the two. Different styles, but they get the job done equally well.
Not that any of this matters. Because if you had seen Isai playing back in his prime a few years ago, you'd either have to be crazy or straight ******** to think any Falcon was better than his. He knew where you were going to be 30 seconds in advance, exactly how you would tech or roll (because his intimidating presence practically forced you do go to where he wanted), and had practically flawless spacing regardless of the matchup. Retired or not, nothing matches his Falcon (except maybe KDJ playing falcon in friendlies).
...Oh yeah and one more thing. Don't give anyone that "I've only been playing smash for <2 years" ****, lol. That excuse might've flown 3 years ago, but you guys now are playing in one hell of a priveleged era of smash, with over half a decade of the evolution of smash's metagame right at your fingertips on youtube, and hundreds of thousands of threads here on the boards. You guys are handed smash's history, including character matchups / effective strategies / technical potential on a silver platter, and learn in a week what it took the founders years. No johns.
Kouryuu
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 2,017
I understand and agree with most of things you've said but regarding that one comment on how video's don't show us how good a person is...
They do. Especially if you know what too look out for. Videos show what a person is capable of and how technical/efficient of a player someone is. As far as "mindgames" go, it's impossible to know exactly what goes on in the heads of both players but it IS possible to make accurate assumptions on what they're thinking based on the actions a player takes.
The better the player is, the easier it is for him to understand how good someone else is by watching them play.
All the statements I've made are not groundless. Watching enough videos might be enough for me to come to certain conclusions about a persons skill.
For example, I can very confidently say that Darkrain is way, WAY better in the Peach match up than SS.
They do. Especially if you know what too look out for. Videos show what a person is capable of and how technical/efficient of a player someone is. As far as "mindgames" go, it's impossible to know exactly what goes on in the heads of both players but it IS possible to make accurate assumptions on what they're thinking based on the actions a player takes.
The better the player is, the easier it is for him to understand how good someone else is by watching them play.
All the statements I've made are not groundless. Watching enough videos might be enough for me to come to certain conclusions about a persons skill.
For example, I can very confidently say that Darkrain is way, WAY better in the Peach match up than SS.
Lol...no, videos really don't show you just how the player operates in terms of efficiency and fluidity of movement, how mentally sharp they are, what kind of tricks they may or may not fall into, etc, etc. All they provide the viewer is a false basis for assumptions into that player's potential, and maybe something entertaining to watch. The only part you really came close on was "Videos show what a person is capable of technically" because a player's technical ability doesn't fluctuate much from day to day.
All you see in a video, as far as trying to ascertain how good a player somebody is, is how close one player's character came to beating another player's character in a 4-minute stretch of time. I'll just completely throw out friendlies as a basis of argument because of the ridiculous number of variables that go hand-in-hand with trying to determine skill through friendly match vids, so let's just stick to a tourney match vid scenario.
And even in tourney match vids, you aren't getting all the information you need to attempt to judge someone's skill. Depending on the skill of the opponent, said player's abilities may be visually accented to appear better or worse than he really is (I could put up matches of myself vs my brother and look like a god with 2 dozen characters, or put up matches of my falco vs M2K's marth to look like the biggest noob on earth, for instance). You don't know just how adept each player is against his opponent's character. You don't know how each player fares on a given stage. You don't know if the pressure was on that match, or if one player had an audience of ****talk working for/against him. You don't know if one player was just having a straight lousy day in smash or not, or if they were playing to the best of their ability during that match.
You really can't know jack from watching vids. You can make assumptions, but aside from seeing who wins at the end, anything else you try to conclude with certainty lacks foundation. You see a little 3-minute slice of time out of a player's years of experience playing smash, with one particular character against another on a certain stage on a given day with multiple unknown circumstances. It would be like taking a photograph of a car every 60 miles as it drove cross-country, then lining them up and trying to decide how fast it was traveling.
If you play against somebody, for hours and hours on a ton of different stages against multiple characters (if he plays more than 1 main), if you're observant you might get a base idea of the inner workings of his mind as far as smash goes. One might be able to say the same as far as watching hundreds of match videos of a certain player, as you've then got hundreds of points of data with which to extrapolate his skill from. Granted, good players don't need to see that many vids to know a truly bad player when they see one. But when it comes to seeing first-hand how good a player someone is, you need to play them yourself.
All you see in a video, as far as trying to ascertain how good a player somebody is, is how close one player's character came to beating another player's character in a 4-minute stretch of time. I'll just completely throw out friendlies as a basis of argument because of the ridiculous number of variables that go hand-in-hand with trying to determine skill through friendly match vids, so let's just stick to a tourney match vid scenario.
And even in tourney match vids, you aren't getting all the information you need to attempt to judge someone's skill. Depending on the skill of the opponent, said player's abilities may be visually accented to appear better or worse than he really is (I could put up matches of myself vs my brother and look like a god with 2 dozen characters, or put up matches of my falco vs M2K's marth to look like the biggest noob on earth, for instance). You don't know just how adept each player is against his opponent's character. You don't know how each player fares on a given stage. You don't know if the pressure was on that match, or if one player had an audience of ****talk working for/against him. You don't know if one player was just having a straight lousy day in smash or not, or if they were playing to the best of their ability during that match.
You really can't know jack from watching vids. You can make assumptions, but aside from seeing who wins at the end, anything else you try to conclude with certainty lacks foundation. You see a little 3-minute slice of time out of a player's years of experience playing smash, with one particular character against another on a certain stage on a given day with multiple unknown circumstances. It would be like taking a photograph of a car every 60 miles as it drove cross-country, then lining them up and trying to decide how fast it was traveling.
If you play against somebody, for hours and hours on a ton of different stages against multiple characters (if he plays more than 1 main), if you're observant you might get a base idea of the inner workings of his mind as far as smash goes. One might be able to say the same as far as watching hundreds of match videos of a certain player, as you've then got hundreds of points of data with which to extrapolate his skill from. Granted, good players don't need to see that many vids to know a truly bad player when they see one. But when it comes to seeing first-hand how good a player someone is, you need to play them yourself.
TidalWave
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2008
- Messages
- 159
King is exactly right (long fan of your jiggs for years king, just new to this site 
). There are so many categories on which to base skill, some of which SS > DR and some DR > SS. If they play, it will really just come to how their playstyles clash and who is really on their game at the time.
). There are so many categories on which to base skill, some of which SS > DR and some DR > SS. If they play, it will really just come to how their playstyles clash and who is really on their game at the time.
NES n00b
Smash Master
But I love johns.
But in all seriousness, by normal human learning, there is a limit to how much you can learn at a time. And certain things like reacting correctly to the right situation takes lots of repetition.So yes johns.
Also location johns but these are all johns so don't mind me.
@King: Your "don't judge people based on videos" statement is usually a good approach when randoms are comparing players, but I am not a random, and I am not comparing them based on videos.
A lot of your points would be true in the past, but the metagame of melee has shifted enormously, and not just the actual playing. My analysis game is strong enough that, while I agree that you can't really compare the overall skill of a player to another through videos with any real accuracy, I can judge different areas of their gameplay and point out areas they are strong and weak in. Technical mistakes are obvious, but I look much more in depth and pay attention to moments of hesitation, how they respond to pressure, variations in responses, approach games, the player's spacing vs different characters, how the player spaces at different sections of the stage, how the player shifts heights using platforms, etc.
I really don't feel like going on and on about this here to be honest, but if you want to discuss it online with me sometime, I wouldn't say no.
A lot of your points would be true in the past, but the metagame of melee has shifted enormously, and not just the actual playing. My analysis game is strong enough that, while I agree that you can't really compare the overall skill of a player to another through videos with any real accuracy, I can judge different areas of their gameplay and point out areas they are strong and weak in. Technical mistakes are obvious, but I look much more in depth and pay attention to moments of hesitation, how they respond to pressure, variations in responses, approach games, the player's spacing vs different characters, how the player spaces at different sections of the stage, how the player shifts heights using platforms, etc.
I really don't feel like going on and on about this here to be honest, but if you want to discuss it online with me sometime, I wouldn't say no.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
charles you should travel to norcal and play jeff.
Scar
#HarveyDent
cactuar vs SS would not be an interesting match AT ALL
trust me plz
trust me plz
Bailey
Smash Hero
Agreement with Scar
cactuar is good to learn from but he's not the most exciting player to watch :/
Bailey
Smash Hero
It doesn't matter if your exciting to watch or not. In the end everyone cares about the W
mmm very trufax sir.
Bailey
Smash Hero
Yep.
When I'm not lying or talking crap I'm full of them
When I'm not lying or talking crap I'm full of them
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
while you guys are on the topic, mango's falcon 3-0'd zhu close after zhu knocked SS out of losers bracket.
(with style!!!!)
so for entertainment purposes, mango and SS falcon dittoing would be great... i think.
p.s. SS stands for super saiyan. he's toooo good.
(with style!!!!)
so for entertainment purposes, mango and SS falcon dittoing would be great... i think.
p.s. SS stands for super saiyan. he's toooo good.
JonaDiaper
Smash Champion
this couldnt be farther from the truth. entertainment>winning.
if you wanted to know who won you would just look at results on the boards. you watch videos expecting to see something amazing and when you dont your dissapointed. if you care about the W so much, skip to the end of every video and see who won and thats it from now on k?
ss always does something amazing, once he gets his momentum going and starts a combo it will be intresting.
dont know why the quotes are backwards, im on my celly
DrewB008
Smash Lord
entertainment is only more important than wins if youre a scrub who just cruises the boards and never expects to actually do well in tournament. otherwise you would be more preoccupied with wins than watching videos. thats why good players like watching jiano even though hes got a really boring falcon compared to others, you can see how good he is in the vids
Jiano
Smash Ace
Pfft, you're boring, and I'm bad.