Victory Road :: Pokemon Tier Legality Discussion

[M.K]

This is the thread dedicated to the discussion of legality within the Pokemon metagame. Legality refers to the ability to use a certain Pokemon in a certain tier, or whether it is deemed too strong or over-centralizing.

Feel free to use this thread to discuss legality in the Generation V metagame. Please be courteous to other opinions and conduct discussion in a civil manner. It would be wise to have evidence to back up your claim.

Official Smogon Ruleset and Tiers can be found here:
http://www.smogon.com/

 

[Gates]

I think everything should be legal in Ubers.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Shadow Tag Shandera should remain legal in OU.

rant post due sometime tomorrow. I'm tired.

 

[Pluvia]

Shadow Tag should be gone in OU. Shandera can stay, that's fine, just not Shadow Tag. It ruins all strategy and can almost always give Shan a free kill. No other Pokemon can switch in and get a free kill like that, not even Ditto.

 

[mood4food77]

it doesn't ruin all strategy

what does a non-scarf shandera do to a scarftran?
what about ttar?
if it doesn't have pain split, what does it do to blissey?

seriously, it's just annoying, not broken
wobbuffet is guaranteed a free kill no matter what (unless the opponent has a dark attack), shandera requires prediction in order for it to do it's job

 

[UltiMario]

what does a non-scarf shandera do to a scarftran? Nothing, because there are no non-scarf Shandy in higher levels of playing.
what about ttar?Nothing, because TTar is pro
if it doesn't have pain split, what does it do to blissey?Switch.

wobbuffet is guaranteed a free kill no matter what No it doesn't stop being stupid. Wob actually takes prediction to take the opponent down with it (or just comping in on a Choice Pokemon on the revenge... but that requires a Choice Pokemon)
shandera requires prediction in order for it to do it's job

sfdgdsfgsdfgsdhsd

 

[The Real Gamer]

shandera requires prediction in order for it to do it's job

I'll edit this post and give my own 2 cents later too tired tonight.

 

[Circa]

shandera requires prediction in order for it to do it's job

Yeahhh...this line just about made me slam my forehead on my girlfriend's keyboard.

If by prediction you mean "can I kill this with some move in my arsenal?" and "am I faster than this base *insert number of 130 or lower here*, and do I know it isn't using Scarf?", then I guess yeah, you need a **** ton of prediction to use Shandera.

 

[UltiMario]

Well it requires prediction if you're smart and run Shed Shell on the **** it can switch into for free like Nattorei.

Now it has to predict your switches :V

Seriously I've had people Flamethrower my Burungeru like 5 times in a row in one match it's stupid.

 

[Wave⁂]

Flamethrower 5 times? And you never considered using Boiling Water?

 

[UltiMario]

I meant they'd switch into Nat with Shandera a ****ton and keep on using Flamethrower into my Burungeru switch-in over and over again.

 

[mood4food77]

yea...after re-reading it....i was dumb

haha

i've had instances like that before ulti, fire attacking my water guy after i did the switch 4 times before...people are dumb sometimes

 

[Pluvia]

Dory should be banned I think, the stats he can get to after 1 SD in a sandstorm is utterly ridiculous, not to mention there's two Pokemon that summon permanent Sandstorm, one of which that can run Superpower, Thunderpunch, Stone Edge and Pursuit to deal with the other weather summoners.

 

[mood4food77]

dory's dumb

come in, SD up, sweep everything

 

[UltiMario]

Only works like 1-in-4 times :D

 

[mood4food77]

no it not, it's definitely way more than that

i stopped running my SS team cause it was ******** easy, all i had to do was remove the opponents fighting type and watch him sweep

same with garchomp, they're both way too strong in SS to be considered fair when you can beat 90% of the metagame with little to no skills

 

[Pluvia]

And I'm pretty sure if you run Jellyfish you can just switch Dory into it if you suspect Mach Punch or Aqua Jet.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

And I'm pretty sure if you run Jellyfish you can just switch Dory into it if you suspect Mach Punch or Aqua Jet.

I think you meant switching Doryuuzu out to Burungeru? I don't think you'd want to switch into a Mach Punch or Aqua Jet.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'm on the fence about Dory. He's revenge killed by a whole host of Pokémon, but he's got very few counters.

 

[UltiMario]

Hey so nobody listen to Pluvia anymore.

It's long, but read it and you'll see. Completely unedited, so lets just ignore anything irrelevant.

Spoiler

[10:30:57 PM | Edited 10:31:29 PM] UltiMario: And hopefully Shadow Tag Shandera will stay OU so I can laugh at you
[10:31:03 PM] UltiMario: :V
[10:31:07 PM] Pluvia: i dont want shandera to be ubers
[10:31:15 PM] Pluvia: i just want shadow tag banned
[10:31:31 PM] UltiMario: Fixed
[10:31:37 PM] Pluvia: shan has other abilities
[10:31:50 PM] UltiMario: Yes, it does.
[10:31:53 PM] Pluvia: so does wobb to be fair
[10:31:58 PM] UltiMario: I'd like to see all of them be legal
[10:32:06 PM] Westley Valukevich: what is wobbufett's ability in gen 5
[10:32:10 PM] Pluvia: telepathy
[10:32:15 PM] Westley Valukevich: you want shadow tag to be legal? ehhhh
[10:32:17 PM] Pluvia: it's useless in singles
[10:32:33 PM] UltiMario: I'm the one that's on Page 1 of the Smogon Wifi ladder
[10:32:41 PM] UltiMario: I know what the hell I'm talking about lol
[10:32:49 PM] Pluvia: I want Shadow Tag to be banned but people are misinterpreting that as I want Shandera banned
[10:33:06 PM] UltiMario: Also, Shadow Tag in itself isn't broken
[10:33:08 PM] UltiMario: It never was
[10:33:10 PM] UltiMario: never will be
[10:33:18 PM] UltiMario: Its the Pokemon that makes the ability broken.
[10:33:19 PM] Pluvia: matter of opinion there
[10:33:26 PM] UltiMario: Whats that Goth Loli?
[10:33:30 PM] UltiMario: Gochizeru?
[10:33:36 PM] UltiMario: Make it an Uber bannable Shadow Tagger
[10:33:39 PM] UltiMario: I dare you
[10:33:53 PM] Pluvia: i dont want the pokemon to be uber
[10:33:59 PM] Pluvia: i want the ability banned
[10:34:04 PM] Pluvia: and by the looks of it
[10:34:08 PM] Pluvia: it's going to be banned
[10:34:16 PM] Pluvia: there's so much debate over it
[10:34:24 PM] UltiMario: If abilities are banned, its Pokemon exclusive
[10:34:37 PM] UltiMario: Shadow Tag Gochizeru, and even Shadow Tag Wynaut aren't broken.
[10:34:54 PM] UltiMario: This proves that Shadow Tag is not the problem, the combination of Pokemon and ability are
[10:35:00 PM] UltiMario: If abilities are EVER banned
[10:35:06 PM] UltiMario: It wouldn't be, say, Shadow tag
[10:35:11 PM] UltiMario: It would be Shadow Tag Shandera
[10:35:16 PM] UltiMario: It would be SPECIFIC
[10:35:35 PM] Pluvia: why would it be specific? you just pulled that out of nowhere
[10:36:09 PM] UltiMario: Because you're not letting Gochizeru have Shadow Tag, even though it's not broken with it in the slightest, because Shandera WOULD be broken with it.
[10:36:15 PM] UltiMario: That simply is not fair.
[10:36:25 PM] Pluvia: goth has that other ability
[10:36:37 PM] Pluvia: goth doesnt need shadow tag
[10:36:39 PM] UltiMario: The only reason to use Goth is Shadow Tag
[10:36:49 PM] Pluvia: or that ability that shows their item
[10:36:57 PM] UltiMario: It's not even BROKEN with it, it just makes it better
[10:37:10 PM] UltiMario: It'll still be a UU or NU Pokemon even with Shadow Tag
[10:37:24 PM] Pluvia: well we'll just have to agree to disagree here
[10:37:33 PM] Pluvia: you with it shouldnt be banned because lol
[10:37:45 PM] Pluvia: and me with it should be banned because it's overcentralising
[10:37:48 PM] UltiMario: Don't take away what little it has BECAUSE A POKEMON THAT IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO IT IS BROKEN WITH THE ABILITY
[10:37:52 PM] Westley Valukevich: certain abilities really arent broken by themselves yo
[10:38:01 PM] Westley Valukevich: weedle with shadow tag wouldn't be uber
[10:38:12 PM] UltiMario: I'd be like Banning Flygon in Gen IV because Garchomp was Ground/Dragon and banned too
[10:38:19 PM] UltiMario: Its the EXACT SAME THING that you're saying here
[10:38:24 PM] Pluvia: no not types
[10:38:26 PM] Pluvia: abilities
[10:38:34 PM] Pluvia: find a better example
[10:38:53 PM] UltiMario: Tell me
[10:39:04 PM] UltiMario: How is the little candle thing broken with Shadow Tag?
[10:39:11 PM] UltiMario: How is Lampmon Broken with Shadow Tag/
[10:39:27 PM] UltiMario: How is the goth line broken with Shadow Tag?
[10:39:37 PM] Pluvia: dont use little candle, lampmon or goth
[10:39:40 PM] Pluvia: so i cant say
[10:39:47 PM] Pluvia: dont fight in little cup
[10:40:06 PM] UltiMario: Its NOT Shadow Tag. Its Shadow Tag + a Pokemon. If Shadow Tag Shandera end up being called broken, does that mean Shadow Tag EVERYTHING is Broken?
[10:40:09 PM] UltiMario: No, its like Garchomp
[10:40:22 PM] UltiMario: Sand Veil was one of the last straws in Gen IV for calling it Broken
[10:40:34 PM] UltiMario: Sand Veil just made a REALLY GOOD POKEMON even BETTER
[10:40:53 PM] Pluvia: just like how shadow tag makes a really good pokemon better
[10:41:01 PM] Pluvia: you're for banning pokemon
[10:41:11 PM] UltiMario: Does that mean Sand Veil should be banned on ALL POKEMON because it makes Garchomp Uber?
[10:41:15 PM] Pluvia: but why ban the pokemon when you can ban the ability?
[10:41:31 PM] Pluvia: chomp would be uber without sand veil
[10:41:37 PM] Pluvia: so that is also not a good example
[10:41:44 PM] UltiMario: Sand Veil made it that counters had 80% acc instead of 100%
[10:41:55 PM] Pluvia: so answer that question
[10:42:05 PM] Pluvia: why ban the pokemon when you can ban the ability?
[10:42:07 PM] Westley Valukevich: wobbufett is not uber without shadow tag, magikarp is not uber with shadow tag, if that doesn't prove the point i don't know what does
[10:42:22 PM] UltiMario: IF AN ABILITY DOES NOT MAKE ALL POKEMON UBER
[10:42:33 PM] UltiMario: IF SOME POKEMON CAN HAVE THIS ABILITY AND NOT BE UBER
[10:42:38 PM] UltiMario: THEN IT IS NOT THE ABILITY AT FAULT
[10:42:40 PM] Pluvia: answer the question
[10:42:48 PM] UltiMario: IT IS THE POKEMON AND ABILITY COMBINATION
[10:43:07 PM] Pluvia: so what would happen if you banned the ability? what would happen to all of these pokemon?
[10:43:21 PM] UltiMario: YOU DO NOT BAN THE ABILITY IN GENERAL, IF YOU NEED TO GET RID OF A SPECIFIC POKEMON AND ABILITY COMBINATION
[10:43:31 PM] UltiMario: YOU BAN THAT COMBINATION
[10:43:31 PM] Pluvia: answer the question
[10:44:07 PM] UltiMario: YOU ARE SHALLOWING THE METAGAME AND ARTIFICIALLY MAKING POKEMON BAD FOR ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON
[10:44:18 PM] UltiMario: YOU DO NOT BAN AN ABILITY IN GENERAL, AT ALL, EVER
[10:44:40 PM] Pluvia: says?
[10:44:50 PM] UltiMario: IS A FIRST STAGE POKEMON WITH SHADOW TAG BROKEN?
[10:44:52 PM] UltiMario: HELL NO
[10:44:53 PM] Westley Valukevich: (unless it's overpowered)
[10:45:02 PM] Westley Valukevich: like ability: kills opponent pokemon instantly
[10:45:05 PM] Pluvia: you're avoiding the question because you dont want to admit the answer
[10:45:12 PM] Pluvia: which is
[10:45:21 PM] Pluvia: all of these pokemon will get slighlty worse
[10:45:32 PM] Pluvia: but will still remainviable in their respective tiers
[10:45:47 PM] UltiMario: Gochizeru is hanging onto decency my the skin of its teeth
[10:45:55 PM] Pluvia: which is much better than making one pokemon uber
[10:46:15 PM] UltiMario: If you get rid of Shadow Tag for EVERYONE
[10:46:23 PM] Pluvia: they all dip slightly
[10:46:24 PM] UltiMario: It goes from almost decent to bottom-of-the-barrel NU
[10:46:32 PM] Pluvia: not shan
[10:46:39 PM] Westley Valukevich: i mad
[10:46:48 PM] UltiMario: You're punishing 10 other Pokemon for the possible Uberness of 1 or 2
[10:47:09 PM] UltiMario: You don't know what I'm saying
[10:47:13 PM] UltiMario: Lets say
[10:47:18 PM] UltiMario: Shadow Tag Shandera is indeed Uber
[10:47:25 PM] UltiMario: You don't ban Shadow Tag. You don't ban Shandera.
[10:47:30 PM] UltiMario: You ban Shadow Tag Shandera.
[10:47:52 PM] UltiMario: You're only banning whats harmful to the metagame without hindering anything else
[10:48:09 PM] Pluvia: But Flash Fire Shan isn't uber
[10:48:12 PM] UltiMario: Yes
[10:48:17 PM] Pluvia: why ban a pokemon that isn't uber
[10:48:23 PM] UltiMario: We're not banning Flash Fire Shan
[10:48:23 PM] Pluvia: when you can just use comon sense
[10:48:27 PM] Pluvia: and ban it's a bility
[10:48:27 PM] UltiMario: We're banning Shadow Tag SHan
[10:48:35 PM] UltiMario: and ONLY Shadow Tag Shan
[10:48:38 PM] UltiMario: EXCLUSIVELY
[10:48:45 PM] UltiMario: You ban the Pokemon and Ability Combination
[10:48:54 PM] UltiMario: Shadow Tag is EXCLUSIVELY banned on Shandera
[10:48:55 PM] Pluvia: which is pretty much the same as banning shadow tag
[10:49:07 PM] Pluvia: good luck convincing people to ban only shadow tag shan
[10:49:10 PM] UltiMario: No, because banning Shadow Tag would get rid of Shadow Tag on OTHER Pokemon.
[10:49:22 PM] UltiMario: Pokemon that AREN'T broken with Shadow Tag
[10:49:26 PM] UltiMario: And really
[10:49:32 PM] UltiMario: Replace Shadow Tag with ANY Ability
[10:49:48 PM] UltiMario: What if Sand Veil really IS the Reason Garchomp crossed the line?
[10:49:54 PM] UltiMario: A ton of **** has Sand Veil
[10:50:05 PM] UltiMario: Should ALL Pokemon lose Sand Veil too to keep Garchomp in OU?
[10:50:24 PM] UltiMario: You're only discriminating against Shadow Tag because it's one of the best abilities in the game
[10:50:28 PM] Westley Valukevich: pluvia it's pretty simple, i don't know why you're arguing
[10:50:31 PM] Pluvia: hypothetical situation that doesn't apply to reality
[10:50:44 PM] Pluvia: sand veil isn't what makes him uber
[10:50:56 PM] Pluvia: anyway
[10:50:56 PM] Pluvia: wanywa
[10:51:00 PM] UltiMario: Shadow Tag Shandera actually being broken and banworthy to begin with is a hypothetical situation that doesn't apply to reality.
[10:51:02 PM] Pluvia: agree to disagree
[10:51:02 PM] UltiMario: Your point?
[10:51:12 PM] Pluvia: agree to disagree here
[10:51:19 PM] Pluvia: we're going around in circle
[10:51:19 PM] Pluvia: s
[10:51:23 PM] UltiMario: I don't know whats wrong with you Pluvia
[10:51:35 PM] UltiMario: Why do you want to ban Shadow Tag on things that AREN'T broken with Shadow Tag?
He just completely dropped the conversation here.

Later he comes back and tries to strawman the slippery slope argument, but that doesn't even actually end up working because there is no slippery slope that can be caused from it.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Was that really necessary?

This is a simple discussion, but you walking all over him and logdumping it afterwards just makes you look like an ***.

...even though you're right

 

[Pluvia]

Just to mention he ignored the later arguments that countered that.

No counter to you can't ban a specific set on a Pokemon without going down a slippery slope and banning sets of Pokemon that people generally don't like.

It's up to you to decided whether or not you support the banning of sets that people generally don't like, therefore sending more Pokemon to Ubers which goes against the "try to keep Pokemon out of Ubers" semi-rule that is followed by Smogon, or if you want the banning of Shadow Tag to keep 2 and possibly 3 Pokemon out of Ubers.

Yeah it might make the Goth that no one uses slightly less viable, but if making the goth slighlty less viable removes 2 (or 3) Pokemon from Ubers and stops an extra 4 or 5 from going into it then that's a worthy sacrifice I'd say.

And also don't be an arse Ulti, I don't go shouting to people to back me up when I think you say something stupid.

 

[UltiMario]

Only after the whole discussion can I realize it was unnecessary for the whole discussion between us to happen because only then could I learn that Pluvia refused to listen to any reason... I couldn't have predicted that.

Edit: You'd stop 1, two Pokemon tops from going to Ubers to have tons of bad side effects on other Pokemon, claiming that'd be better than an alternative to stop 1 or 2 Pokemon from going to Ubers with NO bad side-effects?

This assumes Shady and Wob become Uber material, of course.

And you STILL ignore the lower tier play that will spawn by the time ST Shandy exists.

 

[Pluvia]

Generally it comes down to whether or not you want less Pokemon in ubers or more Pokemon in ubers Ulti.

My solution keeps less out of ubers, your solution increases the amount in ubers. You think my way is stupid, I think your way is stupid.

Also we're both using completely different servers for reference here. I use PO you use Smogon.

 

[UltiMario]

Generally it comes down to whether or not you want less Pokemon in ubers or more Pokemon in ubers Ulti.

My solution keeps less out of ubers, your solution increases the amount in ubers. You think my way is stupid, I think your way is stupid.

Lets make a random assumption:
Shadow Tag Shandera and Shadow Tag Wob turn out broken in Gen V.

Your method would ban Shadow Tag on these two as well as everyone else, keeping these two out of Ubers but making other Pokemon worse in the process.

My method would ban Shadow Tag EXCLUSIVELY on these two, letting Pokemon not broken with the ability stay good. No more Pokemon would be added to Ubers because those exclusive bans prevent them from going to Ubers.

Our methods would have the same amount of Ubers, but only mine doesn't hurt lower tiers.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Smogon has moved onto PO.

 

[UltiMario]

That's old news?

Yeah I think so lol

 

[Pluvia]

No I use PO onlines server. The main websites one that used to be called the Beta Room or something.

Anyway Ulti what you want to do is keep the goth the same as she is right now at the expense of throwing a bunch of Pokemon sets that people generally don't like facing into uber, what I want to do is decrease the effectivness of the goth to keep a bunch of Pokemon out of ubers.

 

[Wave⁂]

I totally didn't read the whole thing, it looks like people honestly ****ing thought that Pluvia thinks Shadow Tag Weedle is broken. It's like taking the phrase "all Asians are good as math" literally. People just being douches

 

[UltiMario]

Anyway Ulti what you want to do is keep the goth the same as she is right now at the expense of throwing a bunch of Pokemon sets that people generally don't like facing into uber, what I want to do is decrease the effectivness of the goth to keep a bunch of Pokemon out of ubers.

So we're throwing the exact same things into Ubers, except you're hurting other Pokemon to do that.

Banning Shadow Tag Shandera has the exact same effect as banning Shadow Tag in general, except ONLY banning Shadow Tag Shandera doesn't hurt other Pokemon that don't deserve to be hurt for a Pokemon completely unrelated to it. There is absolutely nothing that your method does better. Both our methods accomplish the exact same positive goal, and have the exact same effect on preventing Shadow Tag Shandera from becoming an Uber. My method would do the same as your method. Except yours has a negative side-effect, and mine does not.

Hey, Flygon is a Dragon/Ground type with Outrage and Earthquake! Hey! Garchomp had these things too! And they both can run reliable Scarf sets! Gee, since Garchomp is Broken, lets ban Flygon too!

Its. The. Exact. Same. Thing.

 

[Pluvia]

You used that argument on Skype and I pointed out that it's not, typing is not the exact same thing as abilities.

Anyway you can't just ban 1 specific set on a Pokemon without people going "Actually, this set on a Pokemon is pretty hard to take down lets ban it too." Either you ban the Pokemon, which in most cases is fine but in Shandera's case isn't as Shandera itself is not uber material, it's just its ability that people gripe about.

Why go down the slippery slope of banning specific sets of Pokemon when you can just ban 1 ability that is considered broken by a large part of the community.

 

[UltiMario]

My method doesn't ban specific sets. Where did I ever mention that?

We're both talking about ability bans. Except my method targets the problem, while your method doesn't target the problem at all and unjustly bans an ability when there are Pokemon that AREN'T broken even with the ability, which proves the ability is NOT broken, and therefore, isn't bannable in a general term. This means you either ban the Pokemon, or just target the ability on a SPECIFIC Pokemon, and ONLY the Pokemon that makes it broken.

We are BOTH talking about ability bans, its just that what method that we ban the ability with is smarter to use?

 

[kirbyraeg]

My method doesn't ban specific sets. Where did I ever mention that?

[10:48:27 PM] UltiMario: We're banning Shadow Tag SHan
[10:48:35 PM] UltiMario: and ONLY Shadow Tag Shan
[10:48:38 PM] UltiMario: EXCLUSIVELY
[10:48:45 PM] UltiMario: You ban the Pokemon and Ability Combination
[10:48:54 PM] UltiMario: Shadow Tag is EXCLUSIVELY banned on Shandera

lol really.

 

[Circa]

Not like it matters. Nobody with half a brain that actually cares about how well they do will bother to use Gochiruzeru or Wynaut in OU anyway. I guess it'll matter in UU or NU, but whatever. Those don't exist yet.

And I know that's not the point. But if you can't program it to only prevent Shadow Tag on Shandera and/or Wob, then it's not hurting a whole lot to ban it from all of them. I don't know how programming works though, so I can't really speak in that regard.

Break a few omelets to make an egg.

 

[Pluvia]

And I'm pretty sure NU and UU will evolve perfectly fine, taking away Shadow Tag from about 2 Pokemon that'll fight in it is not really that big a loss. And they have other abilities to fall back on.

 

[Circa]

Well Gochi and Wynaut could have the potential of being fierce competitors in their respective tiers too, so long as they have Shadow Tag, but meh. For all we know Shadow Tag could force both of them to BL (lolz, wouldn't that be hilarious?).

 

[UltiMario]

lol really.

Banning a specific set would be like banning SDYache Chomp. Different.

Not like it matters. Nobody with half a brain that actually cares about how well they do will bother to use Gochiruzeru or Wynaut in OU anyway. I guess it'll matter in UU or NU, but whatever. Those don't exist yet.

And I know that's not the point. But if you can't program it to only prevent Shadow Tag on Shandera and/or Wob, then it's not hurting a whole lot to ban it from all of them. I don't know how programming works though, so I can't really speak in that regard.

1. People have already looked in the game data and discovered Gen V Pokemon don't have overworld sprites to use for Dream World. Smogon has already stated a Pokemon MUST exist before suspect testing (aka be usable on Wifi), it ST Shandera EVER happens, it'll be the third game, by then, UU and NU have stabilized. And its not just Gochi and Wynaut in lower tiers. Wob got a nerf too with Encore, and its in a metagame where stuff hits harder. There's a small chance it might not be Uber either, but what if ST is? Then now you're hurting the OU metagame too.

2. They've already programmed ability+Pokemon combination bans. That's why you can't go into Wifi with unreleased DW Pokmon.

And I'm pretty sure NU and UU will evolve perfectly fine, taking away Shadow Tag from about 2 Pokemon that'll fight in it is not really that big a loss. And they have other abilities to fall back on.

As Circa said, they might be top-level UUs or NUs too, and those metagames are just as much of a metagame that OU is. Remember, OU is just the most popular metagame, that doesn't make it the only important one. You shouldn't wreck other metagames when you could simply ban the ability on a single (or if Wob gets called broken, two) Pokemon instead.


What you're doing here is probably hurting other tiers (possibly every single tier from OU to LC) to accomplish the exact same thing as banning something to only change 1/2 Pokemon.

And again, all this would require Wob or ST Shandera actually being called Uber this Gen. Of which I'm sort of against at this point.

 

[Circa]

What's interesting about your argument is that you used Smogon's tiering system to validate not banning it, yet I'm pretty sure you've talked about how little you care about what Smogon's doing with the tiering on at least one occasion. Just pointing that out.

Apart from that I actually get your side. I don't agree or disagree with the banning of Shadow Tag, whether it be specific Pokemon or not, or whether it should be banned in general. I was just saying that if it's to be banned and there is no way of banning the ability on one specific Pokemon (which I had forgotten about the WiFi thing, so this part is irrelevant now and thank you for reminding me), then you could just ban it from all of them. Not because I don't care about the tiering, but because I know that OU is the most popular tier and what everything else adapts to, and thus it does have a certain level of priority over the others. And the people who play UU or NU will eventually get over the fact that they can't make Wynaut and Gochi as awesome as Shadow Tag would likely make them anyway. We can adapt. That's the awesome part about being human. But that's moral bias and irrelevant now anyway, so meh. I'll leave now.

 

[Pluvia]

Anyway long winded responses that get no where is why I left the Debaters Hall.

We'll just have to agree to disagree and see what both our respective competitive communities to do Shan.

 

[xxmoosexx]

My view on Shadow Tag Shandera and Wobuffet:

Wobuffet was deemed uber, from my understanding, because he could dismantle any choiced pokemon. He would render them useless and did not necessarily kill too many pokemon...he took out the element of using Choice items on a pokemon. The aspect of Choice items made pokemon a deeper and more competitive game. Therefore with this ability it took away from the game which resulted in a ban.
Correct me if Im wrong about that. I think he should be banned.

Shandera is currently used to dismantle walls. Most notably Nattorei.
This sounds familiar, back in Mence metagame in Gen 4 Magnezone would be used to take care of steels which were oh so common in that metagame.

Like before people can run shed shell to switch out to an appropriate counter. It's not hard to counter Shandera. Most notably weak to Dark(Pusuiters), Water and Ground. IIRC Shandera has some pretty mediocre defenses.

Until we see if Shandera can trap and kill more than just walls and a small community of pokemon then I dont think it should be banned.

Thats just my take on it. Scarf Shandy is able to take out more than just walls and can threaten a pretty large group of pokemon with its massive 145 spAtk.

In my opinion Shadow Tag as an ability should be banned.

TL;DR- Wobuffet was banned because he took out the aspect of Choice items.

ScarfShandera can kill so many pokemon.
IMO Shandera should be banned due to his ability to kill many pokemon and does not allow them to switch out.